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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Jul 1961

Vol. 54 No. 10

Nurses Bill, 1961—Committee and Final Stages.

Sections 1 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.
SECTION 7.

I move amendment No. 1:

To delete subsection (1).

I move this amendment so that the Seanad may be aware of the very serious tendencies towards centralisation and more State control that are contained in this apparently very innocuous amending Bill. The main purpose of this Bill is really enshrined in Section 7. It shows that the purpose is simply that the Minister shall appoint the president. The president had previously been appointed by a majority decision of the board. As Senator Jessop pointed out the last day, had this been in the original Bill, perhaps, we would not have taken so much notice of it. It is our duty to call attention to the tendency by the State to control everything. I made it quite clear in my previous speech on this that we, of necessity, being a poor country that came late to our independence and having so much to do, were forced into doing quite a great deal of this through the State.

I refer to such concerns as the E.S.B., Bord na Móna, the Sugar Company, and so on. These have all done very good work. In the past 12 months, we have had another, spate of Bills setting up more semi-State bodies —the various marketing organisations. It might be contended that they could have been dealt with on somewhat different lines. Anyway, the decision has been taken. They are there as semi-State bodies. That being so, we owe it to our future citizens to try to safeguard the future against the dictatorship of complete centralisation.

The discussion must concern the amendment.

I am moving to the amendment. Where possible, we must return power to the lesser organisations. As the State power grows, we must try to prune a certain amount from it. This section and especially subsection (1) is directly contrary to that spirit. The only reason the Minister advanced the last day for seeking this power was that previous presidents admittedly did not toe the line. So, a Minister of State is henceforth to be the sole arbiter on whether an outside body is performing its function or not. The measure of the efficiency of the holder of the office is to be judged apparently by the readiness with which he complies with the dictates of the State.

The Minister tried to soften this for us by stating he himself had no intention in regard to this post. I readily grant that to him. He said that, as proof of that, it was proposed that the present holder should continue for his full term of office and go on for whatever three or four years he has left. That makes it all the worse. We are here to legislate not for today but for the future, not for the next three or four years. We are here to pass legislation that will be as valid in the future as it is today. Consequently, the Minister's assurance about the present occupant of the post is not satisfactory.

Apparently the last day, the Minister took grave exception to what I said, especially when I quoted the principle of subsidiary function which is the principle on which I based my opposition to this section. This is the keystone principle of all Catholic social teaching as contained in Quadragesimo Anno. It is a principle of universal validity. The principle from Quadragesimo Anno states:

It is an injustice, a grave evil and a disturbance of right order for a larger and higher association to arrogate to itself functions which can be performed efficiently by smaller and lesser societies.

That is a general principle. It is sufficiently elastic perhaps to be interpreted in the framework of the country concerned.

Essentially, it says that the State should not do what other bodies can do efficiently. That is the position here. This other body, An Bord Altranais, has been appointing its president for the past ten years. It has been doing so efficiently by all the standards we can observe. Consequently, it is a move in the wrong direction for the Minister to arrogate that power to himself. He does not dispose of this principle merely by the reductio ad absurdum he suggested the last day that when you carry that on to its extreme limit, you have to go down and down and that the upper bodies can do almost nothing.

Nobody who knows anything of Christian social teaching would endeavour to decry a principle in that fashion. In giving those principles, we have to be careful, on the one hand, to be scrupulous of their terms, showing the wide latitude involved, and so on. They are principles based on the natural order which is the result of a very long and protracted study by very keen minds over many years.

As principles and as expressions of social teaching, they deserve to be considered carefully and their contexts examined in connection with our situation. On the other hand, in exposing those, we must treat with the contempt it deserves any defiance that simply seeks to make a mockery of the principle. Consequently, it is with a full consciousness of the position that I move this amendment. I move it solely so that the Seanad may be aware of the tendency towards which we are heading and that the Seanad may examine each piece of legislation to ensure we are building up a healthy society for the future and not merely one that will be utterly and completely paralysed by the colossus of State control.

As far as principles are concerned and as far as the details of Bills are concerned, I do not see why each Senator should not regard himself as having a duty to examine each matter, completely independent of Party principles or Party politics. If we can import Party politics into mere subsections of Bills, then, I think we are going very far. I know nobody wishes to do that. Consequently, I appeal to the House to consider this, to study the principle and to see that each group in our society is allowed to function in the way it should function in a proper democracy.

I think the step taken by the Minister in this Section is a retrograde step, a step in the wrong direction. I think the Board was established under the Nurses Act, 1950. It has worn very well since then and the Minister cannot deny that. The reason it has worked so well is, I think, the large measure of freedom it has from Departmental and Ministerial control.

We are entitled to look with a certain amount of suspicion on this section. A man was president of the Board for a long number of years—I think ten years—a man of independence and of character. He differed from the present Minister and I think he differed also from other Ministers for Health. I think the Minister wants to make certain that that man will not be appointed president of this Board in the future, although for ten years he had the full support and the full cooperation of the members of An Bord Altranais.

Senator Quinlan has spoken about private enterprise and voluntary bodies. I myself believe private enterprise and voluntary bodies do much better if left to themselves, without too much Ministerial or State control. I feel this whole question should be divorced from petty Party politics, but unfortunately it is not. I happen to have some little experience of this.

At column 783, Volume 189, of the Dáil Reports, the Minister stated that 13 members of the Board were appointed by the Minister and Deputy O'Higgins said:

Appointed, on nomination, by the Minister.

Mr. MacEntee: No, after consultation-that is not nomination.

Mr. T.F. O'Higgins: I know the Minister's view in relation to that. I certainly appointed them on nomination.

Mr. MacEntee: I happen to feel that I am the custodian of the rights of Dáil Eireann.

I should love to think there is nothing else at the back of the Minister's mind than that he was the custodian of the rights of Dáil Eireann but unfortunately there was a little bit of Party politics behind all that.

On one occasion, the General Council of County Councils gave the Minister the names of three people who were members of the General Council. At the time, the Minister recommended that they appoint a man who was not a member and they refused to do so. They gave him the name of one man who was a Fianna Fáil man but he stuck to his views and appointed a man who was not a member of the General Council of County Councils.

The Senator is now going outside the scope of the amendment.

I may be, but I am entitled——

The Senator is not entitled to go outside the scope of the amendment.

The Minister's attitude is a dictatorial one. The Minister wants to make sure that it is not the Board's wishes which are adhered to, but his own wishes. I think I am entitled to state that if the different bodies want a particular man to be president, the Minister over the years has made sure, and is at present making sure, that it is not their representative but whoever the Minister himself wants to be president of that Board, will be president. If the Minister has a good reason for introducing this section, he should take us into his confidence and give us the reason. The fact that the Minister appoints the chairman of the Voluntary Health Insurance Board is no valid reason or justification why he should appoint the president of this Board.

There are 23 members on the Board and the Minister nominates or appoints 13 of those. He appoints the majority. Surely he should have confidence in his own nominees to do what they believe to be best. I think this is a retrograde step and, as Senator Quinlan says, we should remember that we are legislating for the future. I support the amendment.

I am very sorry that the debate has taken this turn because it will be necessary for me to clear up some misapprehensions which appear to lurk in the minds of Senator Quinlan and Senator L'Estrange. Senator L'Estrange said that I approached these appointments in a partisan spirit. In the same breath, he tells me the General Council of County Councils sent up three Fianna Fáil nominees and I did not appoint one of them.

I said three members, one of whom was Fianna Fáil.

And I did not appoint him ?

The Minister wanted to appoint another Fianna Fáil man.

I do not recollect the particular episode to which Senator L'Estrange refers, but if I appointed somebody else, it was because I thought the other person was a better representative. There was no question of Party politics. I am not like Senator L'Estrange, I do not approach public affairs in Ireland with the same squint as he does. I look them straight in the face and try to do the best I can.

It was stated by Senator Quinlan, and repeated by Senator L'Estrange, that the immediate predecessor of the present president had been president of this Board for ten years. Of course that is not true. There was as president, from 1951 to 1953, a very distinguished man, and a one-time comrade of my own. He died and was succeeded by another eminent physician in the city of Dublin, of considerable eminence, the present chairman of the Midwives Committee of the Board, and he held office in 1954 and 1955 and was beaten in an election in 1956. There was not raised then any high argument based on subsidiary function. The arguments which were used were the arguments used on the other side of the Border against a person of a particular religious persuasion.

Like Deputy Booth used against Deputy Dockrell.

We are talking about nurses and the appointment of the president. An important feature of this organisation is that a very important part of its functions relate to nurses who have to be trained as midwives, The president of that committee is the person who is nominated by the Minister to be a member of the Board and, ipso facto, by virtue of the nomination, becomes chairman of the Midwives Committee. That has worked very satisfactorily and I am asking the Seanad to support me and to say that the same principle should apply to the appointment of president of this Board.

I am fully convinced after what I heard about the arguments used during the 1956 election that if we want to be quite certain that a worthy person will be appointed president, he should be nominated by the Minister who will then have to come to Dáil Éireann to justify his nomination, if it should be criticised on the grounds that the person nominated is unworthy. For that reason, I hope Senator Quinlan's amendment will be rejected.

I take this amendment as I find it. The provision in the Bill is that the Minister shall have power to appoint the president of a board, a majority of which he nominates himself. The amendment is to delete that power from the Bill and leave the Board itself to appoint its own President. I do not know who the present president is and I have not followed any proceedings of this Board. I am taking this amendment on its face value and for what I conceive it means. I have listened to the Minister and the Minister has convinced me by his attitude that the amendment is sound and one that should be supported.

The Minister began in his usual pharisaical fashion by saying he is not like other men—he is not a politician and does not use politics like Senator Quinlan and Senator L'Estrange. The Minister must have an immensely brazen impudence to think that anybody in this country would believe he is not an ardent politician. He is the most ardent politician in the country.

Except yourself.

I am a milder form and I am not completely pharisaical. I do not appeal to Caithlin Ní hUalachain and say: "Look at me; I am different from all these other——

You certainly are; we are good looking.

I did not interrupt the Minister. The Minister is, in fact, intoxicated with vanity. He constantly preaches the doctrine of the immense majesty of Ministers, the immense responsibility of Ministers, that Ministers can do no wrong but that other people can do wrong. He very often resorts to the tactics to which he resorted to-day when he said something dark, murky and dreadful happened some time in 1956 and that if he revealed it, we would all fall down and say: "How wise a man is MacEntee, the Minister for Health."

I cannot for the life of me see why the Minister wants power to appoint the president of this Board except on the basis he has given us that a previous board was so incompetent that it did not appoint the right president. The right president, of course, is the president the Minister thinks is right. In other words, the right president of the Board must be the kind of person who will kow-tow to the Minister. Like all vain people, the Minister is, of course, capable of being humbugged by people who play up to him.

The amendment seems quite simple. I do not want to go into the question of the subsidiary bodies with which Senator Quinlan dealt. I do not think the Minister has anything to do with Papal Encyclicals. This is a practical matter of appointing a board to do a particular job. The Board is as likely to know the best president as the Minister. He may be on the Board already and the Board can appoint him without the advice of any Minister. Quite obviously, on his own showing, the Minister is gathering power to himself because he does not like the way independent people exercise their powers. Ministers rarely like them, and no one dislikes them more than the Minister for Health, in order to satisfy his vanity and his absurd state of mind about the majesty of Ministers. The amendment should be agreed to and the subsection deleted.

I just want to——

The Minister has no right to make a second speech on this amendment.

We are in Committee.

We are not in Committee.

We are on Committee Stage.

I apologise.

I just want to make the House aware of one thing. Senator Hayes has said that I wish to get this power to appoint the president of the Nurses Board, An Bord Altranais, into my own hands. That power will not be exercised by me at all I believe, because I hope that the gentleman who is now president of the Board will continue to be president until his term of office expires, which will be three years from now, when some other person will probably have the right to exercise the authority which I now ask the Seanad to give him. There is no question of vanity or otherwise.

The Minister's revelation about 1956 has actually shocked me. I am shocked that the Minister knows precisely what happened in a committee that is supposed to be secret.

It is not supposed to be secret.

Because it is not a committee to start off with. It is a board responsible to the Minister.

How does the Minister know the arguments used at its meetings? Apparently the Board gave a wrong decision in 1956 but it has now given a right decision. To me that smacks of the worst type of dictatorship. The Minister used the argument that he is the custodian of the rights of Dáil Éireann, or that he is the only impartial person who could decide it. I put it to the House that any dictator in any country could claim exactly the same rights for himself. If that dictator were a benevolent dictator, perhaps his decision would be the best possible, but we cannot build democracy on such grounds. I respect the Minister's intentions. I am not concerned whether he is or is not the Minister who will appoint the next president. So far as I am concerned, that is totally immaterial because we are legislating for the future. I warn the House that there is a great uneasiness throughout the country about the rather brutal centralising tendency his Department is showing, a tendency which he is showing as Minister but which can ultimately be traced back to his Department. His Department has a far more centralised outlook than any Department of State. That is an unhealthy position and one which we should combat in this House and outside.

The Minister has paid tribute to the present eminent holder of this office. I do not even know his name. If the committee were capable of giving the right decision a year ago, what is the reason for this Bill being rushed through to prevent any wrong decision being taken in the future? Whether or not it is wrong is interpreted by the Minister, and really refers to how far the holder of the office complies with the Minister's wishes in all respects. We cannot build a nation on that foundation and consequently I must press this amendment.

Listening to the debate on Second Reading, it was quite obvious that the rest of this Bill is just a frame into which to put Section 7. I did not know what was really involved until the Minister spoke at the end of the Second Reading debate and then I understood. The fact of the matter is that this is a squabble between the Minister and an individual. We all know that, or at least I knew it when the Minister spoke at the end of the Second Reading debate. I was not aware of it until then.

It is not nice to see a section put in a Bill in this way because the Minister is afraid—when I use the word "afraid", I am using it colloquially— or should I say, does not want an individual who might quite easily become president, to be president again.

Leaving out the other surrounding circumstances, what astonishes me is that the Minister, as everyone knows, is an exceedingly pleasant person socially and personally but when he gets dn his feet in a debate, he seems to blow up in some way. I cannot describe it. Some people suggest that he becomes bloated but that is not the idea I want to convey. He blows up—there is something like a fission movement, an atomic bomb goes off inside him and he feels that his standing or his pride, or whatever it may be, is involved, and he commits himself to this kind of action.

Really, I agree most heartily with Senator Quinlan. Like Senator Quinlan, I did not know about these matters at all and Senator Quinlan still does not know about them. I did not know about them until the last night here. As I heard the Minister reply on Second Reading, then I understood what was involved. When I cast my mind back, I could bring the whole thing together and the pieces fell into place. Ministers never do this kind of thing. The Minister would really add to his stature among us all, if he withdrew this section.

Question put: "That the subsection proposed to be deleted stand."
The Committee divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 11.

  • Ahern, Liam.
  • Brady, Seán.
  • Brennan, John J.
  • Carter, Frank.
  • Cole, John C.
  • Colley, Harry.
  • Crowley, Tadhg.
  • Dillon, Gerard B.
  • Dowdall, Jane.
  • Farnan, Robert P.
  • Fitzsimons, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Seán.
  • Ó Donnabháin, Seán.
  • O'Dwyer, Martin.
  • Ó Grádaigh, Seán.
  • Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
  • O'Reilly, Patrick.
  • ÓSiochfhradha, Pádraig.
  • O'Sullivan, Ted.
  • Ruane, Thomas.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Walsh, Louis.

Níl

  • Carton, Victor.
  • Crowe, Patrick.
  • Hayes, Michael.
  • L'Estrange, Gerald.
  • McGuire, Edward A.
  • Murphy, Dominick F.
  • O'Donovan, John.
  • O'Keeffe, James J.
  • O'Sullivan, John L.
  • Quinlan, Patrick M.
  • Stanford, William B.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Carter and Ó Donnabháin; Níl, Senators L'Estrange and Quinlan.
Question declared carried.
Section 7 agreed to, Senators L'Estrange and Quinlan dissenting.

They were recorded as voting against it.

Against the amendment.

Sections 8 and 9 agreed to.
Schedule and Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment.
Agreed to take the remaining Stages today.
Bill received for final consideration and passed.
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