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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 3 Aug 1961

Vol. 54 No. 17

Shannon Free Airport Development Company Limited (Amendment) Bill, 1961 (Certified Money Bill): Second Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I want to clear up some misapprehensions voiced by some of the Fine Gael Senators in the course of their observations on the Second Reading of this Bill. So far, there are about 60 fewer persons employed in Shannon Airport, which at the moment is doing very well. Some 400,000 passengers passed through the Airport last year. The number of terminal passengers is growing remarkably, as anyone can see from reading the report of Aerlínte for the past financial year. The Industrial Estate is becoming more than a replacer of unemployed persons at the Airport. It is becoming a new industrial project of its own with a very definite purpose of bringing industries to this country who wish to use air freight as a part of their general purpose in so coming. I wish to make that clear beyond all doubt—that it has gone beyond the stage of what Senator O'Donovan described as a salvage operation. It may be that the number of transit passengers in the Airport will diminish in time and that the Industrial Estate will pick up some of those unemployed persons and, in general, maintain the employment level, but at the moment that is not the case.

Next, I want to say that there is not going to be any pause when this Bill is passed, if our Government are returned at the general election. Factories will be built ahead of time but in relation to the demand for them. The Shannon Development Company have no intention of building 32 factories all at once, without having any idea whether they will be needed. Factories will be built to the order of a concern in some cases and in advance in others, to ensure sufficiency in advance, but there is no warrant for the statement that money is being extravagantly spent, without due regard to the interests of the taxpayer, and, much more important in this case, of the citizens of this country, who, through the payment of interest and sinking fund, have in the first instance to provide the capital for the company, although, as I have already said, much of it will be repaid in the course of time.

By April 1st 1961, the present factory lessees tell us that about 1,262 people will be employed, and that if all goes well, about 2,000 people will eventually be employed: that is, in the factories already built and in the extensions that have been ordered by a number of those industrialists because they want to go ahead and increase the extent of their manufacture, or to manufacture commodities additional to those which they listed when they originally planned to come into the Airport. On 30th June, 1961, there had been in the previous quarter 180 inquiries in regard to factory building and, of these, 77 came from the United Kingdom. There are seven firms at the moment planning to start industries in the Shannon Industrial Estate and where the arrangements have reached an advanced stage. We believe all seven will start. That accounts quite completely for the envisaged factory building programme at the present time.

I want also to repeat that the Shannon Air Estate is absolutely unique in the world. There is no other estate where planes can taxi to the door of a factory and take on goods delivered by fork-lift truck and where the factory promoters can take delivery of materials delivered by fork-lift truck. The raison d'être of the Shannon Air Estate is the absence of double handling. I hear that Luxembourg propose to do the same and good luck to them. The Indians have made some inquiries of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company and I believe something of the kind will be set up in India, and good luck to them, too. At the moment, this happens to be an absolute Irish first in our economy. There is no reason why we should not speak not perhaps extravagantly but perhaps excitedly about this project.

And anxiously.

I do not know what further to say. It is too late at this stage and I know the Seanad want to complete their business. I do not know whether to talk about the insincerity of Fine Gael and the absence of unity within their ranks. In the Dáil, there were all sorts of whispers about the possible failure of Aerlínte. In the Seanad, Senator McGuire extols it more than Aer Lingus. In the Dáil, the Shannon Free Airport Development Company did not receive any general criticism.

What about Westmeath? What about yourself and Senator Carter?

That does not arise.

The Minister was talking about Fine Gael.

There is absolutely no division in Fianna Fáil or between myself and Senator Carter. We are the greatest friends. If the Senator wants to start low, dirty talk in the Seanad on the occasion of this Bill, he can do so.

On a point of order, is the Minister not to be allowed to speak?

The Minister will be allowed to speak. The Senator is not in order.

The Minister is not supposed to refer to what happened in the Dáil.

The undying friendship between Senator Carter and myself has nothing to do with this Bill.

On a point of order, with all respect to the visitor to our House, the alleged divisions in Fine Gael have nothing to do with this Bill.

I am perfectly entitled to point out that in the Dáil the Fine Gael Party members, when speaking on this Bill, referred to certain details concerning rents. We have had a series of excoriating and ribald observations by Senator Donegan on this project. I mention it in passing.

On a point of order, is the Minister entitled to say my observations were ribald?

Shall we say "frivolous"?

I did not insult the Minister when he was speaking. I addressed my statements to the chair. The Minister should come to the Bill.

The reason this money is being asked for in advance of the general election is that some of the money is required before the general election, no matter what date it takes place, and the second reason is that we hope that if we pass the Bill and that if by any sorry chance, any other Government should be elected to office, they will not torpedo the project as happened in the case of the design to initiate an air service across the Atlantic some years ago.

In regard to the position of the Shannon Industrial Estate, should we subscribe to the Rome Treaty and should the negotiations be completed, it would be impossible for me to say what steps will be taken in regard to the estate. It may be desirable to incorporate the area within the Rome-Treaty area. Other arrangements may be made. At the moment, the number of inquiries continues to be just as great as it was before the project of adhering to the Rome Treaty was mooted. There are reasons for that, too. Labour is getting very scarce in most countries in Europe. Twenty-five per cent. of the entire working labour force in Switzerland is foreign at the moment. There are only a few countries where there is an available supply of labour. There is not an available supply of labour here in quite a number of areas but there is in a great many areas. It is our problem to reduce emigration and provide employment. Shannon offers very excellent prospects to manufacturers.

We hope that the Shannon Industrial Estate will be a showpiece for this country in regard to industrial relations. The very greatest care is being taken by the Shannon Airport Development Company to invite trade unionists and manufacturers who are interested in productivity, particularly all those who are expert, and in trying to see, when the new industries start, that labour relations will be good from the very first. We hope that the Shannon Airport estate will set an example to the rest of the country because it is entirely new and there need be no old prejudices on the part of either employers or workers in relation to industrial relations. That in itself should be an attraction to industrialists, regardless of the results of the Rome Treaty.

Another advantage is that the industrialists who are now coming, genuinely believe in the idea of air freight. It satisfies them. For example, the main reason why the firm of Rippon came to manufacture pianos at Shannon was that they were looking for a site all over Europe from which they could distribute pianos by air and from which the pianos could be moved directly into the freight plane. That is a matter of very great importance to them in relation to freight costs and general expenses. I give that as one example.

A number of Senators tried to make calculations in regard to the capital cost per worker employed in setting up the estate. On the basis that the maximum number employed in Shannon will be some 2,264 persons, the company's total investment will work out at £660 per worker. The factory investment will be £2 million, in actual fact. In terms of working capital and plant or £916 per worker, the total combined investment by the development company and the firms will work out at £1,576 per worker. That is on the basis that none of the options which exist in connection with the factory buildings to purchase these buildings by the companies concerned is taken up. If the options are exercised and all the factories are purchased, the Development Company's total investment would be reduced to £298 per worker.

One Senator gave a figure of £3,000 per worker which is a figure we received from the O.E.E.C. The average cost of establishing a worker in full-time employment from the standpoint of capital required for all purposes in about £3,000. Even if only two-thirds of the number predicted by the company, 2,264, were actually employed, the amount per worker would still fall below the level considered necessary by O.E.E.C.

With regard to housing, I should say that a number of expert town planners, Irish and foreign, have been employed in trying to decide how many people should live within the Airport area. The number of one in every three has been the result of the expert advice received from a number of persons, including people who established new satellite towns in Great Britain and also including Swedish, Dutch and our own experts. I can assure the House that there are a great many people who would not object to living adjacent to the Airport from the point of view of noise. The main runway is some distance away and the jet engines point forwards and backwards at right angles to the housing estate. That eliminates a great deal of the unpleasant noise. We are all getting used to living in noisy conditions. There can be no doubt that people are getting used to the kind of noise they will have to experience in the housing area there.

The rents of the flats will vary from £3 to £4 per week, according to the size of the flat. They will be used by the better paid workers. The houses will be used by executives. The rents for them are higher. The rent of the 100 houses will be more moderate and will be for the less highly paid type of worker. I am glad to say that many of these flats have been booked and some of the industries have even asked for options to reserve accommodation for workers in the houses which have not yet been started.

If all goes well, much of the capital will be repaid with interest over a long period. If anybody wants to raise that matter on Committee Stage, I shall be glad to give the information. In connection with the factory buildings, there is an economic rental which, including maintenance of the outside of the buildings and all the other items of expense, should ensure the repayment of capital with interest over a period of 40 years. In regard to the rental established for the various industries, some were established from the very beginning at an economic rent, while others were not. It is a varying picture. It is impossible to say how far the whole operation will be fully economic. It is hoped they should be able to pay the quite reasonable economic rents judged by standards abroad. The actual rent for the largest type of factory, including all expenses for maintenance — everything but rates — is 3/9d. per square foot, a reasonable figure. Some are paying this figure and some are paying rents increasing by stages.

In answer to Senator O'Donovan, the banks do not like lending long-term loans for industrial purposes and, as a result, the State capital guarantee system was given up and is being replaced by repayable advances.

It was suggested to me that I should keep the sphere of the Company's operation within extremely narrow limits. I am afraid that we do not intend anything of the kind. Anything which adds to the name of Shannon, which increases the number of people coming to Shannon and touring from Shannon to other parts of the country will be promoted by the Shannon Development Company Ltd. If we can afford the money for it, I hope the promotional effort will grow more and more. To avoid duplication, there are continuous meetings of the co-ordinating committee on which there are representatives of the air companies, Bord Fáilte, the Shannon Development Company and my Department so that wasteful expenditure can be avoided and every penny spent by the Company is put to good account.

One of the Senators spoke about the scandalous expenditure for management by the Shannon Free Airport Development Company. He referred to the fact that half of the money spent was for grants to industry and the other half purely on management. The other half spent on management included over £100,000 spent on advertising the Industrial Estate and on a number of promotional ventures to advertise Shannon itself and to encourage people to start from Shannon on a tour of Ireland. The actual running expenses which are naturally heavy in the early stages amount only to a quarter of the total grants issued by the Government and not to a half. Perhaps I should have given those figures in the course of my Second Reading speech.

Senator Donegan suggested that the value of industries in the Shannon Industrial Estate was limited in some way because of the way raw materials were imported and finished goods exported in the duty free areas. In common with other places in this country, in order to qualify for Commonwealth preference, they must add an amount of manufacture to raw materials which varies from 25 per cent. — in the case of a great number of industries at Shannon, it is 50 per cent. — to as high as 75 per cent. value to be added to the cost of the raw materials if they are imported from outside the Commonwealth or British areas. There are rebates on dutiable goods imported into the Republic and not only to the Airport area where those same goods are reexported, an arrangement has been made by the Government in a very large number of cases to ensure that export costs are kept down.

I regret that the accounts were not ready for this debate. A sinister implication was found in that in the Dáil, but in actual fact, as I remarked to Deputy McGilligan in the Dáil, all the accounts of the companies over which I have supervision arise to be presented just at the time the Dáil ends its session. Therefore the ideal position would be that we should undergo the unusual procedure of voting the amount in this session and having the debate next session which carries with it disadvantages. The Shannon Development Company's report was just a little later than other well established State Companies' reports due to the period of stress and strain they have gone through in the promotional activity of a new kind.

Finally, I would remind the Seanad, the company started operation only in January 1959 and got going only about June 1959. It has made very rapid progress. Everything it has done had to be started de novo. Nobody was experienced in this country in building factories in advance for people. Nobody was experienced in building factories close to an airport and the whole of the propaganda, the whole promotional work for this novel idea, became successful in two years. I would also add in regard to the suggestion that there was a pause in the development that some of the factories are not yet fully in operation. The Rippon piano company is working only a quarter or one fifth of its full operation. Workers are still being trained. A great deal of machinery has not yet been installed in some of the other factories. This is an entirely new venture and I hope it will have the support of the Seanad.

May I conclude by saying that there will be no wild spending of money. Both the industries and the houses will be built pari passu with the demand for them. I hope the project is going to succeed. It would not on any account result in a whole collection of empty buildings built a long time ahead of the need for them. It is a project that can grow steadily through the years.

Before the question is put would the Minister indicate the significance of the point raised by Senator O'Donovan about the removal of the Shannon Free Airport Company from the State Guarantees Act on April 7 of this year.

I have already indicated that under the State Guarantees Act the Government guaranteed money to the banks but the banks do not like lending money for long term capital purposes. They do not like making long term loans and it was felt wise to promote a company and to give the company power to have shares issued to it by the Minister for Finance. At the same time, repayable advances can be made to the company under the terms of the Bill which can be paid on the same basis as that applying to the Local Loans Fund, namely, the principal amortised over a period of 35 years at an interest rate of 5½ per cent. Such an arrangement, I understand, is not readily possible to the commercial banks, so the State guarantees system came to an end in the normal way when the company itself was set up.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill considered in Committee.
Section 1 agreed to.
SECTION 2.
Question proposed: "That Section 2 stand part of the Bill."

This is the section that deals with the investment of moneys of the State. On Second Reading, the Minister told us that this is not a salvage operation with no hope. It is hoped that any other Government elected will proceed with it. He has told us that he has not got the foggiest notion what will happen if the Rome Treaty interferes with the undertaking and says that at this stage it is impossible to give an indication of the position. He did tell us that it is going on, that there is to be no pause and that this must go forward. If the Common Market and its terms are carried through and the British Isles enter the Common Market——

If these things happen——

You were caught out on this the last day.

When this happens, the advantage to the State so far as I can see will be the increase in freight caused by the existence of the Free Airport Company and the subsidiary factories. The increase mentioned was 5,000 tons. Five thousand tons is tiny. In freight, it is absolutely tiny. Air freight is so expensive that it could be paid only on a piano or something like that or some of these things like precision threaded fasteners, miniature capacitors or transistor radios. You could not send any bulky object by air freight even though it were relatively valuable. Air freight rates are prohibitive in the ordinary course of commerce, but if the Minister makes the point that this is going to increase air freight, then he is restricting the commodities which can be produced at the factories at Shannon to exceedingly valuable, but exceedingly small objects. If I were to give an example, diamond drilling equipment is one and that is almost a laboratory operation. We must face facts and that is what it is.

As Senator O'Donovan pointed out, we had in April this year an indication in the fact that for the first time the Shannon Free Airport accounts were removed from the State Guarantees Act and it now is actually voted money like the Local Loans Fund. The reason given by the Minister is that the banks do not like lending money for long term commercial purposes. He comes in here with the March 1960 accounts. May I make the point, as I did on Second Reading, that we here are the bank managers who hold the coffers of the ordinary citizens who are really the bank directors. We have now moved from the commercial world where bank directors and bank managers do not like lending money for long-term commercial enterprise— I do not go along with the Minister in that; of course they like to lend money for commercial purposes if they are sound enterprises — into the realm of the State and the money is to be lent from the public purse.

In fact the defence is made by the Minister in this case that of an expenditure of £400,000, £100,000 was spent on television and advertising, the promotion not only of the Shannon Free Airport Development Company but of Shannon Airport itself and everything that will increase traffic, and that this was a co-ordinated effort between Bord Fáilte, his Department and Shannon Airport. Now we have gone into a different realm. This is no longer a commercial proposition. We are going into the position whereby we are to spend money for the promotion of Shannon Airport as Shannon Airport. I have no objection to the spending of public money for the promotion of Shannon Airport as Shannon Airport, but it is not right to come here and say it is a commercial proposition and that it is going to do extremely well and that the public money will be repaid, when in fact a defence of the expenditure of over £400,000 is that £100,000 went on the promotion of various things that have no relation to the real activities of the company itself.

In reply to my allegation in regard to the manufacture of certain articles here that we were bringing in the broken down parts for a composite thing like a transistor radio, the Minister said that to gain the imperial preference you had to do at least 25 per cent. ranging upwards. Some of these factories at Shannon are in fact doing 25 per cent. of the work on the end product and the best boast the Minister made was that in some cases they were getting up as high as 75 per cent. I have little knowledge of what happens in radio factories but I suggest that, for instance, in the case of transistor radios, if you bring in the broken down parts, the assembling of them is in the neighbourhood of 25 per cent. of the total work on the project. So there you are.

In the case of radios, it is 50 per cent.

Well, we can have our different opinions.

I am telling the Senator that in the case of radios and transistors the Commonwealth requirement is 50 per cent.

But in the case of some, it is 25 per cent. I do not want to see this thing fail but I do not want to see this colossal expenditure at a time when we are about to enter the Common Market. If the Minister had said: this is permissive legislation and the Government desire that not one penny will be spent and we are not going ahead until we see that it is a proposition under the Rome Treaty; we are not going to build factory space until we see whether under the Rome Treaty it is a proposition: we are not going to build houses for the workers there until we see clearly that under the Rome Treaty it is a practical proposition, then it would be possible to give it unqualified support. But the Minister does not do that. He says this is going on without a pause, that this will go on after the election and that that is their desire whatever Government are elected. He said that that is why they brought this before the Houses of the Oireachtas, that whatever Government are elected they will go on with it.

It did not always follow. History could repeat itself in that respect.

I feel the manner in which this legislation has been brought before the House, the manner in which it was introduced by the Minister, does not make for prudent expenditure and the defence of the public purse.

It is a great thing that we have reports of debates, as we saw last night on the Industrial Grants Bill when we clearly established the Taoiseach's opposition in 1956 to industrial grants. The Minister for Transport and Power says that doubts are cast on this project and the Shannon Free Airport and he denies that it is a salvage operation. The Minister himself, speaking on the Air Navigation and Transport Bill, 1959, in this House, gave an indication of his attitude towards this matter.

The whole proposal is not under discussion on this section.

Under the section, we are going to vote to increase the expenditure from £1,500,000 to £3,000,000 and I want to inquire into the nature of the project on which this money is to be spent.

The matter has been discussed on the Second Stage.

I want to clarify in our own minds whether it is right, proper and prudent to authorise the Minister for Finance to expend public moneys to the extent of £3,000,000 upon this project. In order to establish that, it is right and proper to make more minute inquiries into the nature of the project.

As long as it is related to Section 2 of the Bill.

I shall relate it entirely to Section 2. The Minister for Transport and Power, speaking on the Air Navigation and Transport Bill, indicated the nature of this project which Senator O'Donovan said is a salvage project and which the Minister said is not. Speaking at Column 828, Volume 51, the Minister said:

Some Senators have suggested that Shannon Airport may become a white elephant. The Government are doing all they can to preserve, develop and expand activity there through the Shannon Development Company and through the promotion of this Bill.

That was the Minister speaking in 1959 but there was a more recent authority and one which I am sure will commend itself to the Minister and the Government members. It is the independent testimony of Deputy Russell who represents Limerick city. Speaking at Column 1655, Volume 191, of the Official Report, on this Bill he said:

The Shannon Free Airport Development Company followed the establishment of the Shannon Free Airport Development Authority in November, 1957. At a meeting held in Shannon Airport, some time around that period, the aims of the new Authority were set out. It was visualised that with the development of jet aircraft Shannon Airport would be overflown to a considerable extent and that that would react particularly on the transit passenger traffic and the transit freight traffic, which has brought such considerable expansion and employment to the Airport. It was felt that unless a vigorous effort was made by a body charged with that duty, Shannon Airport might dwindle considerably from the point of view of giving employment.

I should be rather inclined to accept this independent testimony of Deputy Russell who presumably, as an active Deputy, was engaged in these vital negotiations to preserve Shannon Airport.

This is a Second Reading speech.

As the Minister is seeking money for this project, it is well to bear in mind the background against which this body was created.

On a point of order, Sir, this is clearly a Second Reading speech. I dealt with all these arguments on the Second Stage.

The Senator must relate his speech to the matter of Section 2.

On a point of order, I think the position is that the Minister is allowed to come here merely as a visitor and is not permitted to take part in the deliberations of the House.

The Minister has a constitutional right in the House.

On a point of order, which I do not suppose Senator Donegan will challenge, we have a long list of Bills and I would appeal to Senator O'Quigley to be brief.

I shall be glad to co-operate in every possible way with Senator Stanford and with the House and everybody else.

The question is not whether money will be voted; the question is how much money will be voted.

One might take that view.

The principle of the Bill has already been accepted and the only point on this section is the amount of money being voted.

I entirely agree. The question is whether any further money should be devoted to this project, and it is necessary to inquire into the nature of this project to see whether we are taking a risk, to use the words of the Minister, in devoting more money to this project.

Hand it over to the ranchers.

The chinchillas had a look at it and did not like it. I would like to refer to Column 1651 of Vol. 191 reporting the Minister's speech in the Dáil because he repeated the same thing here this evening. The Minister, speaking on the Shannon Free Airport (Amendment) Bill, 1961, in the Dáil, referring to the Shannon Free Airport Development Company Ltd. said that it was unique in the Irish economy and probably without parallel in the economy of any other country. He went on: "it is an experiment which involves considerable financial risk for the State..."

On a point of order, Senator O'Donovan made exactly the same speech on Second Reading.

That may be so. Senator O'Donovan may have said all that.

On a point of order, my constitutional knowledge sometimes is deficient but I understand that this has been declared a money Bill and that, in fact, once the principle on Second Reading is passed, it is impossible for this House to recommend any diminution in the amount.

The Seanad may make a recommendation, not an amendment.

The Minister ought not to be standing upon the Constitution in that improper way——

(Interruptions.)

Senator O'Quigley to continue upon this section of the Bill.

If I do not say it at this stage, I will say it on the final stage. I will not be suppressed——

The Senator will speak only if he is in order.

I have learned how to speak in order on the final Stage, knowing the perils it held for some of my colleagues.

For me, for example.

The Senator is now becoming disorderly.

Disorder has already been introduced by a lot of other people.

I was dealing with the financial risk to which the Minister referred earlier in the evening. He had also stated at Column 1651, Vol. 191 that this Shannon Airport Development Company was an experiment involving considerable risk. Those are weighty words, and their relevance to this section is that here we propose to increase the capital of the company from £1,500,000 to £3,000,000. I think it proper, therefore, to inquire into the justification of increasing the capital of the company by that amount.

I would have long since concluded on this section if I had been permitted to do so. All I wanted to say was that here we are increasing the capital for this project which involves considerable risk, and I trust that the Minister in making these disbursements to the company, will take into account the circumstances of the present time and, in particular, the possibility that this may well be the white elephant to which he referred on the Air Navigation and Transport Bill debate in this House in 1959.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 3.
Question proposed: "That Section 3 stand part of the Bill."

I want to say briefly that this is a free grant being made to this company. This removes it from the requirements of commercial organisations inasmuch as the free grant is not based on an absolute maximum in relation to the amount of money being expended but is at the discretion of the Minister.

This grant is made at the discretion of the Dáil. It is a voted grant in connection with the Departmental Estimate and it is controlled both by the Minister and by the Minister for Finance before it reaches the Dáil.

My point is that if a proportion of this were to be utilised to build a certain thing or do a certain thing, if it were related to ordinary industrial grants all over the country, there would be a maximum percentage grant. In this case, the Minister has full discretion, as I understand it.

Question put and agreed to.
SECTION 4.
Question proposed: "That Section 4 stand part of the Bill."

This is the section which authorises the payment of grants not to exceed £400,000 for the provision of dwellings for workers. I should like to ask the Minister what is the definition of workers in the context of this section.

It can be staff of any kind, from executives down to ordinary unskilled workers.

That is very much the point. We had an Agricultural Workers Bill this evening, and a Holidays Bill and, in both, the term "workers" was defined. In the context of this section and in the ordinary course of events, one would expect the word "workers" to mean those employed in the manipulative work of factories, not top-class executives and company directors drawing perhaps £2,000, £3,000 or £4,000 per year. If we are to make grants or advances on particularly attractive terms and conditions for the building of houses, we ought to know whether these are to be made available to people drawing such incomes, or confined to people engaged in production and people in offices earning, say, under £1,000 per annum. It does not do for the Minister to say that everybody is a worker. Everybody is a worker, including a millionaire, for sometimes millionaires work.

If houses are built for the executive classes working in Shannon industrial estate they will be required and are being required to pay the absolutely full economic rent, including interest and repayment of principal, but, of course, the vast majority of them are being built for the craftsmen and other workers in the estate. In the case of this section enabling repayable advances to be issued out of the Central Fund, the whole of the principal with interest has to be repaid as in the manner of Local Loans, so that so far as this section is concerned the matter is completely as Senator O'Quigley would wish it to be.

Question put and agreed to.
Sections 5 to 8, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without recommendation.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill received for final consideration.
Question proposed: "That the Bill be returned to the Dáil."

There is only one observation I want to make, arising out of the Minister's reply on Second Stage. It was very interesting to hear the circumstances in which the Shannon Free Airport Development Company has been removed from the Schedule to the State Guarantees Act, 1954. Apparently, the views which were expressed by Senator O'Donovan and Senator Donegan this afternoon were shared by the banks. The Minister told us the banks would not lend money for a project of this kind, that they did not like lending money for periods of as long as 25 years, that they did not like that kind of business, that they believed only in short-term loans. I took the Minister down as giving that indication.

The Minister should realise that we all know that banks do in fact lend money to local authorities for house-building purposes and other such things for periods up to at least 25 years. It is significant that in relation to this Bill the banks would not lend money for a similar period, even though the loans were being guaranteed by the State. That view shows that the opinions expressed by Senators on this side of the House this afternoon and the doubts and anxiety they have concerning this project were not unfounded and certainly were shared in other quarters — or perhaps it is that the declining stock of the Government is noted by the banks and that they will not make any more loans.

Another matter I want to raise on this final stage is that the Minister apparently has assumed to himself— upon what authority I do not know— the right to give directions to this company in relation to the utilisation of the money. I understood that this company had its own board of directors. I do not know on what authority the Minister for Transport and Power can give directions to the company as to the manner in which they shall expend this money. If it should happen that the project — or some parts of it—does not succeed, the Minister can say: "This is the company's business. If you establish an independent company, there is nothing you can do about it. You must let them run their own business." On the other hand, it will be very difficult for a company, knowing all the facts and carrying out their business from day to day, successfully to utilise the moneys to the best advantage, if they are to have the interference of the Minister in matters in which, not being Minister for Industry and Commerce, he is not technically qualified to give any directions. Where does the Minister find authority to, as he puts it "give directions to the company" as to the manner in which they shall direct their efforts in relation to the expenditure of money under this Bill?

I should like to express my complete disapproval of the Bill. I appeal to the Minister to go very slowly. I would say that no member of this House or of the Dáil has a greater admiration than I have for any member of the Cabinet who will take steps to forward any project to help to give employment to our people. I say with all sincerity that, with the present position in regard to Europe, this is the silliest proposal that has ever been put before a House of Parliament.

The Minister lays great stress on being near Shannon Airport. I do not want to repeat all that Senator Donegan said. Is it not a fact that in our time we shall not be able to use planes for really heavy traffic? Is it not true that they can carry only certain light valuable articles? Therefore, the setting-up of a satellite town and the building of houses at Shannon Airport at a time when the doors of many houses in Mayo, Galway, Donegal and other places are being closed, and have been closed in the past 10 or 12 years, is surely not reasonable.

This very doubtful project would make some sense if it had been proposed before there was any question of joining the Common Market but now I am satisfied that it is a very foolish move. It is putting a burden on our people that should not be placed on them. We cannot build the nation from Shannon Airport as we can build it from the homes in Connaught and elsewhere. The people there are the right type of people on which to build the nation. If help and encouragement were given to them to stay in this country and to continue with their own way of life, it would be a much wiser course. I am sorry that a Minister who is so able——

The Senator is going outside the scope of this Bill.

I feel I should be failing in my duty if I did not give voice to my complete disapproval of this proposal. I am sorry it should happen. A lot of people are coming in here because we have protection and the right of entry to the British and Commonwealth markets. I like to hear of people coming into this country and starting industries but what will the people I have been referring to do, if a change should now take place?

The Minister said they would build those houses for executive officers and that the full economic rent would be paid. That is sensible. However, suppose the industries do not succeed. Already two out of ten have failed. What guarantee have we that 32 more will succeed? If the Minister erects these houses and these people lose their employment, who will occupy the houses? We have often heard talk about white elephants. This project may very well become a white elephant. I appeal very specially to the Minister to go more slowly in the erection of the satellite town. I hope I am wrong but I am afraid that he is making a grave mistake nationally.

I think I answered nearly all the points in my Second Reading speech. The Minister for Transport and Power has the right to give a general direction to State companies indicating the extent to which they should conform with Government policy in relation to the national economy. I would refer Senator O'Quigley to my speech on the Estimate for the Department of Transport and Power. I dealt in general with the extent to which my Department deals with State companies and the Senator might find it interesting reading.

I totally and utterly disagree with any Senator who says it is not an excellent thing to found light engineering industries in this country. I hope they will dot the countryside. We need far more people with scientific skill. Nothing could be better than the development of engineering industries and of industries requiring precision, where the parts are small. It will result eventually in the development of ancillary industries. One of our great needs is the establishment of light engineering industries making laboratory instruments. Please heavens, we will be able to make laboratory instruments in the course of the next 20 years and from that will come the beginning of what we have got to have here if we are to have a truly industrial era, namely, industrial research and invention. We can never do that until we have light engineering industries and, above all, industries which will build laboratory instruments. I would almost go down on my knees to have that happen.

So far as employment is concerned, many people employed at Shannon come from the small farms in the neighbourhood. In regard to the European Economic Community, I believe that there is room for an air industrial estate working in conformity with the Rome Treaty regulations modified to the extent that is necessary as a result of negotiation. It would be quite wrong for me to start to indicate the various alternative methods of providing for that co-ordination. I think I have answered all the points made in the course of the debate on the Final Stage.

Question put and agreed to.
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