Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Dec 1963

Vol. 57 No. 5

Funds of Suitors Bill, 1963—Second and Subsequent Stages

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time".

Minister for Justice (Mr. Haughey)

The object of this Bill is to release £50,000 of the funds of suitors vested in the Accountant of the Courts of Justice and to use it to help finance the rebuilding of the Opera House, Cork, which was destroyed by fire towards the end of 1955.

The loss of Cork Opera House was keenly felt by the people of the city and the county. A number of public-spirted persons formed a new Cork Opera House Company in 1958 and immediately set about the formidable task of raising the necessary funds for a new building. The company is a public one with an authorised share capital of £125,000 in ordinary shares of £1 each and its directors are six prominent Cork citizens.

It was estimated at the time that the overall cost of rebuilding would be approximately £150,000. In 1959 the company approached the Government, through the Minister for Industry and Commerce, for assistance in reaching this amount as it was clear from an early date that no more than £75,000 could be raised by subscriptions from the public and by local fund-raising activities. They were informed that the Government would be prepared to seek approval for a State Guarantee of a loan of £50,000 to be provided by a commercial bank. The necessary steps are now being taken by the Minister for Finance for the issue of this guarantee under the State Guarantees Act, 1954. In addition, the Cork Corporation are providing an interest free loan of £25,000.

The negotiations involved in the raising of these funds were complicated and prolonged. The company, therefore, were not in a position to put the work out to tender until late in 1961. When tenders were received, it became clear that the estimate of £150,000 was by now unrealistic because of increased building costs and the necessity for compliance with stringent municipal standards of public health and safety, and that the cost of the new building would be about £200,000. The Opera House Company thus found themselves facing the unpleasant alternatives either of having to seek another £50,000 or of abandoning a project for which three-quarters of the outlay had already been assured.

The company had by this time canvassed all local business concerns and many national ones as well, and it was evident that no further financial assistance from these sources was to be expected. A large amount had also been subscribed in small sums by many thousands of local people, who could hardly be asked to provide any more. A total of £75,000 has now been subscribed from private sources and the company has pointed out that the raising of such a large sum of money is evidence of the widespread desire that the Opera House should be rebuilt. Accordingly, they asked the Government, through the Minister for Industry and Commerce, to review the problem in a generous light so as to make it possible, by the provision of the additional funds now required, for the company to carry its plans to completion.

It was clear at this juncture that, without substantial Government aid, the project would have to be abandoned. The extent of the commitments already undertaken by the company made it impossible for them to assume any further financial burdens so that aid in the shape of a further guaranteed loan or even an interest-free loan, would not solve the company's difficulties. We have decided, therefore, that, subject to the approval of the Oireachtas, a grant of £50,000 should be provided from the funds of suitors for the project.

The loss of the Cork Opera House was a severe blow to the cultural life of the south of Ireland. Enthusiasm for its rebuilding is great and I am sure that Senators will agree that the grant of £50,000, which is provided for in the Bill, will be money well spent.

It is proposed that the grant of £50,000 to be made available to the company from the funds of suitors will be given on the basis that—

(1) the grant will not be made available until all the other funds, private contributions, Cork Corporation loan and State-guaranteed loan, have been certified as expended on the building operations, and

(2) if within 30 years the Opera House ceases to be used for drama and opera, the grant must be refunded, an allowance of one-thirtieth being made for each year for which the premises have been so used.

It is proposed that the fulfilment of the latter condition will be secured by an indenture to be entered into between the company and the Minister for Finance and it will be arranged that the amount of any refund would be a charge on the premises.

The funds of suitors are the cash and securities belonging to suitors which have been transferred or paid into or deposited in the High Court. In the normal course, they may be used only for the benefit of suitors entitled. Part of the funds consist of unclaimed dividends and balances which have been accumulating over more than 200 years. These are known as the dormant funds and they may be defined more precisely as balances in accounts which have not been dealt with for 15 years or longer.

The total liability in respect of the funds of suitors on the 31st October, 1963, was £10,323,000 of which the dormant funds amounted to about £947,000 consisting of cash to the value of £390,000 and securities to the nominal value of £557,000. The actual funds, however, whether cash, money on deposit or investments standing in the name of the Accountant of the Courts of Justice do not amount to the totals which I have just mentioned. This is because cash and securities amounting to £648,150 and £130,000 respectively have been withdrawn from the funds of suitors under the authority of various Acts of the Parliament of Ireland, the Parliament of the United Kingdom and the Oireachtas. The purposes to which these withdrawn funds were applied included the building and improving of the Courts of Justice and the enlarging of the Law Library in Dublin.

The last statutory authorisation for withdrawal from these funds was contained in the Funds of Suitors Act, 1959. This Act enabled a total of £323,000 to be utilised for a number of specific purposes, namely, to provide financial assistance towards the rebuilding of the Abbey Theatre, to finance the repair and renovation of the buildings of the Society of King's Inns and to provide for the creation of a fund for the maintenance of the Society's Library. All these Acts indemnified suitors for any loss which they might sustain by reason of the withdrawals. This indemnity is backed by the Central Fund.

It will be apparent from what I have said that a portion of the funds of suitors amounting in the aggregate to £778,150 is represented not by cash or securities but simply by the liability of the Central Fund to indemnify suitors against any loss. The present Bill proposes the withdrawal of a further sum of £50,000 and provides for the usual indemnity backed by the Central Fund. The withdrawal of this amount will almost exhaust the so-called dormant funds. As I have said, the dormant funds amount in all to £947,000. When account is taken, however, of the fall in the value of the dormant securities, the net value of the funds is £866,000. The total withdrawals which have been authorised by the various statutes in the past, plus the amount of the proposed withdrawal under the Bill, amount to £828,000, leaving only £38,000 untouched. As time goes on there will, of course, be a further accumulation of dormant funds.

When the Abbey Theatre was destroyed, the Government were approached for help in rebuilding the Theatre. This appeal was met by a grant of £250,000 from the funds of suitors which was provided under the Funds of Suitors Act, 1959. The rebuilding of Cork Opera House is also an enterprise of national concern and unless the State assists financially, the work may never be completed.

The granting of the £50,000 which is proposed in the Bill will enable Cork to have its Opera House. As a cultural amenity, its value cannot be expressed in terms of money but its existence will certainly improve the facilities which Cork has to offer from the point of view of the tourist. The business community and the public have shown their real interest in the project by raising the very substantial sum of £75,000 in the form of shares and interest-free debentures. Building work has commenced and payments to the contractors and architects are being made out of the £75,000 which has been raised from these private sources. I believe that it is only right for the State to help to bring this very worthwhile task to completion.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

I wish to extend a hearty welcome to this Bill. It is right and proper that the people of Cork should be assisted in the reconstruction of their Opera House which was destroyed in 1955. As the Minister said, the loss of the Opera House was a severe blow, culturally, not alone to the city of Cork but to the south of Ireland.

It is clear from what the Minister has told us that a genuine voluntary effort has been made in the city of Cork and, as a result, a sum of £75,000 has been subscribed. The Cork Corporation have also provided an interest-free loan of £25,000 and the State have guaranteed a loan of £50,000. If my figures are correct, it means that, apart from the sum of £50,000 which is being given, a sum of £150,000 has already been provided. It was originally thought that £150,000 would rebuild the Opera House but apparently the cost of building has gone up drastically since the destruction of the building. It is, therefore, necessary that the State should step in and finish the job, so to speak, by providing this £50,000. I am entirely in favour of it.

The State should subsidise voluntary effort of this sort. It should subsidise the living theatre in this country. I was rather disappointed some time ago when the Arts Council gave grants on a less generous scale to the drama festival committees. Further, this grant of £50,000 which we are now being asked to sanction will not cost the State anything. It is being paid out of dormant funds which are standing to the credit of suitors in the accounts of the Courts of Justice. It is true that the State are accepting a liability to indemnify that suitors' fund account, should the missing suitors turn up and claim the money that should be there for them.

This Bill affords an opportunity of saying a word about these dormant funds and I should like to ask the Minister whether any steps are taken from time to time to trace the missing suitors, whether notices are ever sent out to their last known addresses. It may be that some people have money in court, where money was invested for them, when they were very young— maybe their parents died; maybe their guardians were indifferent; and maybe these people went to England to seek a living and perhaps do not know they have sums of money to their credit. I think some notices should be sent out or some efforts made to trace these people from time to time.

There is just one other point which I should like to make on the Bill because it affords an opportunity of doing so. It happens from time to time that money is invested for a minor, let us say, when he is 15 or 16 years of age, or younger. Where, say, £1,000 has been invested for the minor, it has happened, and I suppose it will happen, that when he reaches the age of 21 years and wishes to withdraw that money, he finds the £1,000 is not worth £1,000 any more but worth considerably less. I think that in future another good use to which those dormant funds could be put would be to set up a fund to indemnify minors who, on coming of age, or within six months of their coming of age, withdrew the money standing to their credit and found that they had suffered a loss as a result of depreciation of the fund in which it was invested on their behalf.

The same thing might happen in the case of an estate of a person of unsound mind. During his lifetime, money might be invested for him in trustee securities and on his death, it could happen that these trustee securities had depreciated in value. Again, his estate could be indemnified out of these dormant funds, and I respectfully suggest to the Minister that it would be a proper use to which to put these funds.

To summarise, I welcome the Bill. I think this money is being put to a good use. I suggest that the Minister serve notice on people who seem to have lost interest in funds to their account, and, perhaps he might consider setting up a fund to indemnify suitors who suffered a loss in the way I have mentioned.

Mr. Cole

I approve of the idea in this Bill and I want to make only one point on it. Having heard the Minister in his opening statement saying that previous calls under the Funds of Suitors Act were made in connection with the Abbey Theatre, the courts and King's Inns, it appears to me that the whole of this fund, which to a certain extent is a windfall, has been expended, and will be expended, in the city of Dublin and the city of Cork. It seems that this fund, being what it is, could be used in a far more general way. I would say, particularly as a countryman, that it seems slightly unfair that these funds should be spent in the cities, where we rather tend to expect to find all the wealth of the country. I want to make that one point —that possibly some of these funds could have been spent on a more general educational scheme for the whole country. Originally, the funds possibly came from all over the whole country.

Mr. Healy

As one who comes from Cork, I want especially to welcome this Bill and to say that it is very heartening in this material age that a Government will think of doing something for those who are engaged in doing things which aim at providing some kind of recreation and culture for the people. Never before in our history have the people had so much leisure time at their disposal. It is easy for people in high places to talk, with their tongue in their cheek very often, about the way in which the younger generation are behaving, or misbehaving, and still decline to create ways in which they may spend their leisure hours. This is a step in the right direction.

The only other point I should like to make is that tribute should be paid to those people in the city of Cork who have devoted, at great personal inconvenience, an amount of their time to keeping this issue alive and to seeing that the restoration of the Opera House becomes an accomplished fact. I can assure the House that the measures now taken are appreciated not only by them but by the citizens of Cork and the people of the country generally. It is not only as a Corkman I speak: everybody realises that this amenity will benefit the whole province of Munster.

I agree with Senator Cole's suggestion and I certainly would have no objection to the money being spent likewise in any part of the country. It is not for me to say it, but I think that the people of Cork, who have collected £75,000, have shown that they have done a tangible amount of work by doing something for themselves. I welcome the measure and I am glad to see that the Government have given recognition where it is due.

Professor Dooge

Like Senator Healy, I am one of those who will benefit directly from this particular windfall fund. I should like to say how very welcome this will be in Cork. Those responsible for drama, both professional and amateur, and for various productions in Cork have made great efforts during the past few years to keep things going in Cork in the absence of the Opera House. But there is absolutely no doubt that the absence of this particular centre and of a fully equipped theatre such as the Opera House has been a very limiting and inhibiting factor in regard to this aspect of cultural life in Cork over the past few years. Therefore, all of us in Cork look forward to the completion of this work and indeed to the rebuilding of the Opera House, placed as it is directly beside the Art Gallery in Cork, forming another centre there which is of very great value.

The only other point I should like to make has already been made, but it is one which cannot be overstressed. The point is the Government come in in this instance to supplement private effort—and to supplement a great deal of hard private effort. Indeed, local people had to go to the limit of their own efforts first and then when they had done all they could do, the Government were prepared to supplement their efforts and make up the remainder. This is as things should be.

In regard to the subsidisation of a great deal of activities in this country, I think it is necessary for us to have the utmost involvement of the local people if we are to get real value from the subsidies which come from the Central Fund. Therefore, I welcome not only the grant which has been made but the way in which it has been made.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Ba mhaith liomsa focal beag molta do thabhairt don Bhille seo. Is dóigh liom gur maith an gnó é an méid sin d'aithint a thabhairt ón tSeanad agus ón Dáil ina dhiaidh sin ar aon iarracht chun cultúr coitinn an phobail a chur chun cinn, a threorú agus na córacha a chur ar fáil chuige sin.

Ó thosach na cainte anso do luadhadh an focal "cultúr" go minic. Is cultúr nó gné cultúir atá i gceist leis an deontas seo atá dhá bheartú le tabhairt do lucht an Tigh Cheoil i gCorcaigh ach táimse ar fad ina fhábhar sin. Is dóigh liom gur ceart é do dhéanamh. Is dóigh liom gur ionmholta an iarracht ón Rialtas a bheith toilteanach é sin do dhéanamh ach tá ní gur mhaith liom go dtabharfaí lid don mhuintir i gCorcaigh atá i mbun an ghnótha seo go bhfuil gnéithe cultúrdha ann agus gur mhaith linne ná déanfaí dearmad ar ghnéithe áirithe dhe agus sin é an gné a bhaineann le cultúr dúchais traidisiúnta an chine seo—ceol, dráma, litríocht agus na neithe a bhaineann leo san agus na gnéithe ar leith de úsáid a baintear as ceol.

Is dóigh liomsa gur ceart go gcuirfí in iúil don Choiste atá i mbun an ghnótha san i gCorcaigh go bhfuil spéis ag an Rialtas in aon ghníomh nó in aon tsaothar a dhéanfaí ar son an chultúir dhúchais sin agus gur ceart go mbeadh comhairle á chur ón Rialtas cuchu gur ar son na neithe sin atá an pobal in Éirinn sásta le cuid desna h-airgidí atá ar a gcumas do thabhairt dóibh chun cabhrú leis an ghnó atá ar siúl acu.

Molaimse é sin. Molaimse go gcuirfí an aigne sin atá luaite agam in iúil don choiste i gCorcaigh agus guím go n-éireoidh leis an iarracht sin i gCorcaigh mar is fónta an iarracht é. Molaim an Rialtas atá ag gabháil páirte chun cabhrú leis.

Mr. Desmond

I am very glad to see that Cork is referred to in this Bill but it is well to remember that the Cork people were not waiting for this. The Cork people have done an immense amount of work in raising a great proportion of the money required to build the Opera House and their efforts have been very much appreciated, not alone in the city but in the county. I am very glad the Minister has set out the position in regard to Cork very clearly in the Bill.

Mr. Ross

Like Senator Dooge I should like to support this Bill and particularly the Government's attitude in coming in with money after a voluntary effort has been made. This seems to be the Government's attitude in a number of cases of this kind; I am thinking particularly of another recent case in which the Government took the same attitude in regard to the Library in Trinity College. They made very generous contributions after the University raised from its own graduates and other people substantial sums of money. However I feel that this Bill is part of a haphazard attitude to the Arts and to our cultural heritage. I may be wrong but I feel that the Government looking at the difficulty in which Cork was in, in regard to its Opera House, said: "What funds can we allocate? Where can we find money for this project?" and somebody then thought: "We have not had a ‘go' at the funds of suitors for some time. Let us take the money out of those funds." That is an unfortunate attitude because as a State we have now a financial status sufficient to enable us to think of the Arts and of our cultural heritage in something more than a piecemeal manner. I should like to see further Funds of Suitors Bills in a different form; in fact, I should not like to see another Funds of Suitors Bill in this form again.

The time has come for the Government to consider setting up some funds to which annual contributions could be made, possibly from revenue, possibly from funds of suitors as they mount up or possibly from other funds as they become available, so that moneys can be accumulated for just the very sort of need being provided for now, to supplement the moneys needed for the Cork Opera House. I should like to see a very substantial fund built up, an Arts heritage fund, or a cultural heritage fund if you like, from which the Government would be able from time to time to allocate moneys to the arts, to the preservation of our heritage of buildings, of music, of theatre, and ballet and other cultural activities. I do feel that while this Bill is a step in the right direction, and very much to be praised, it does not go nearly far enough and I should like the Government to consider setting up some permanent substantial fund which could be built up over the years for this kind of purpose.

Professor Stanford

I agree entirely with Senator Ross but it does seem to me that his arguments point towards an even more drastic solution. The suggestion has been made in this House before, and I make it again, that this country really needs a Ministry of Fine Arts. Our prestige in the world is due to a large extent to our artistic inheritance. It seems unfair that so busy a man as the Minister for Justice should have to look after funds which should be devoted to fine art. In all seriousness, I think we should move towards restoring that admirable situation which I understand existed under the First Dáil, when this country had a Minister for Fine Arts.

Mr. Haughey

I am grateful to the Senators who have spoken for the welcome they have given this Bill. I had hoped and expected that it would be a non-contentious piece of legislation but the Seanad, in its magnanimity, has done better and has unanimously welcomed the Bill.

I do not want to follow Senator Ross into the area which he has opened up. He will readily understand that artistic matters are not my concern as Minister for Justice. Indeed, I come into this particular field only because these funds —this Aladdin's Cave, as one Deputy in the Dáil described it—are administered by the courts and are, therefore, the responsibility of my Department. It is for that reason I am involved in this matter and not because I have any particular appreciation of the Arts. The suggestions made by the two Senators should, I think, more properly be addressed to the Minister for Education, or, perhaps, more directly to the Minister for Finance. We have, as Senators know, An Chomhairle Ealaíon to which the Government make substantial funds available each year for artistic purposes.

Senator Fitzpatrick asked me about the arrangements for notifying suitors themselves, of funds lying dormant. The position is that the Superior Court Rules provide that a list is to be prepared by the Accountant every five years and published in Iris Oifigiúil.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

That is not a very widely read journal.

Mr. Haughey

The list is also exhibited in the court offices. I understand the list does not give the amounts involved. It merely gives the names of the cases and, to that extent, suitors who diligently read Iris Oifigiúil or study the list in the courts are aware of the position.

The Senator also raised the question of the fall in value of securities in which moneys belonging to suitors are invested. It is true that we had a fairly bad situation at one time, because of the fall in the value of some particular stock.

Mr. Fitzpatrick

Three per cent.

Mr. Haughey

The particular stock fell heavily, with resultant loss to those whose moneys were invested in it. That fall applied all over, of course, and not just to court funds. A large number of institutions suffered the same loss. I understand that situation is now rectified and that it is unlikely there will be such a fall again. Precautions have been taken with regard to the stock in which these moneys are invested and it is hoped that there will not again be any loss sustained, though it is, of course, impossible to guarantee that. If such a loss were to occur in the future, it is difficult to see how one would be justified in making moneys of that sort available to meet the loss. The principle established with regard to the use of these funds is that the transaction should be a capital one, and one involving a once and for all payment; it would be wrong, for example, to use the funds for something which would properly be a charge on a Vote. They may be used only for exceptional capital purposes. While we cannot guarantee that there will never again be losses in the sums invested for the benefit of minors and others, we all hope that such loss will not occur.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.