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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 18 Dec 1963

Vol. 57 No. 5

Adoption Bill, 1963: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

In recommending this Bill to the House, I would like to begin, as I did in the Dáil, by stressing that the amendments it proposes are not radical and are entirely in the nature of modifications to a statute which has worked exceptionally well and which has already, in the course of ten years, enabled the benefits of legal adoption to be brought to nearly 7,000 children. I think it right, also, that I should again take the opportunity to say that the success of the Act has been due, not only to the sound principles on which it was based, but to the excellent, and indeed indispensable, work that has been done in giving effect to the Act both by the Adoption Board and by registered adoption societies.

Everybody concerned with the welfare of children will readily acknowledge the importance of the work done by the Board but, in acknowledging its importance, we may perhaps be inclined to overlook the fact that the work is also very time consuming and that it is a voluntary Board. The time devoted by members of the Board to adoption work is very considerable incline deed. As I said in the Dáil, this country is well served by people who sacrifice their time and leisure to voluntary work on various Boards of this kind but there can be few Boards, if any, which make such demands on the time of their members as An Bórd Uchtála.

The other vital factor in the successful operation of the system of legal adoption has been the work of the Registered Adoption Societies. Most adoptions in this country are arranged by these societies and the proportion is increasing: they now deal with nearly 80% of all placements. They care for and maintain unwanted children, including children who can never be legally adopted, and, where children are eligible and suitable for adoption, the society concerned has the task of seeking and finding families willing and able to adopt them. These societies, therefore, do all the basic work and the Board's rôle, indispensable though it be, is supervisory only.

During the debate in the Dáil, I was asked for some further information about the registration of these societies, so perhaps the House would wish me to refer to this matter here now. The first point I should like to stress is that all adoption societies are, and must be, purely charitable organisations. More specifically, the requirement, set out in Section 36 of the 1952 Act, is that—

"the Board shall not register any body of persons unless the Board is satisfied—

(a) that the body is one which exists only for the purpose of promoting charitable, benevolent or philanthropic objects, whether or not any such object is charitable within the meaning of any rule of law, and

(b) that the body is competent to discharge the obligations imposed upon Registered Adoption Societies under this Act."

I should say, in passing, that the decision of the Oireachtas to restrict this function to charitable organisations, while undoubtedly prudent, was quite possibly unnecessary for it is not an activity which shows or can hope to show a material profit or which any group of persons would be likely to undertake and keep up except as a charitable or philanthropic undertaking.

The Board is entitled, by Section 37 of the 1952 Act, to cancel the registration of a society on any ground which would require or entitle the Board to refuse an application for registration or if it appears to the Board that the requirements of the Act are not being adequately complied with by the society or if an offence under the Act is committed by the society or by any person acting on its behalf. Finally, registered adoption societies, and every officer of such society, are obliged to give, at any time, at the request of the Board, full information in regard to the constitution, membership, employees, organisation and activities of the society and at all reasonable times to permit a member or authorised officer of the Board to inspect and make copies of all books and documents relating to adoption in the possession or control of the society.

It will be seen, therefore, that the Board has comprehensive powers of control over adoption societies. It is quite evident that the Board, in the 10 years or so that it has been in existence, has been generally satisfied with the standards observed by the societies, and I say this not just because the societies have been kept on the register by the Board but because, as I understand, the Board has never, as far as the Board can recall, had occasion even in a single instance to reject, on grounds of unsuitability, an application for an adoption order sponsored by an adoption society or in respect of a child whose placement was arranged by a society.

This does not mean that the Board, or indeed the societies themselves, do not realise that there is room for improvement. The societies would be the last to suggest otherwise and I have no doubt that they, more than anybody else, are concerned to achieve a gradual improvement in standards over the years.

Turning to the provisions of the Bill itself, I think I can say that it received a very good reception in the other House. Some points which I myself had regarded as of little importance were a cause of concern to some Deputies and, as members of this House may have similar doubts, I should like to refer to them in particular as I go along.

Section 2 of the Bill proposes to allow the adoption of legitimated children in certain circumstances—but not where the birth has been formally re-registered under the Legitimacy Act, 1931. As the explanatory memorandum points out, the main object of this section is a practical one, in that it will relieve the Board of the need to have last-minute inquiries made, as they frequently have to do at the moment, as a safeguard, to satisfy themselves beyond doubt that the mother of the child has not married the father between the time she gave her consent to the adoption and the day the application comes formally before the Board. In all but the rarest cases, these inquiries serve no purpose other than to give everybody concerned an assurance that the adoption order is valid and cannot be called in question in years to come on the grounds that the child had been legitimated and was therefore ineligible for adoption.

Apart from that practical problem, there have been some cases where a child who was eligible for adoption when it was placed with the prospective adopters became ineligible because the natural parents married before the adoption order was made. In some such cases, the natural parents find themselves unable to acknowledge the child and the barrier to legal adoption has no other result than that the child is kept by the prospective adopters without the benefit of legal adoption or is even sent back to spend its childhood in an institution. It is not in the general interests of legal adoption that a situation could arise in which a couple take a child into their home with a view to its adoption, having been fully satisfied that it was legally eligible for adoption, only to find that at a later stage the child becomes ineligible but is still unwanted by its natural parents who are not prepared to recognise it.

Section 3 of the Bill proposes to allow the Board, at its discretion, to extend by up to two years the time for making an application for an adoption order. Under existing law, the application must be made before the child has reached the age of seven: the amendment will permit that limit to be raised to nine, but only where the child has been in the family since before its seventh birthday. The object of the amendment is to cater for the occasional case where, perhaps through an oversight, an application for an adoption order is deferred too long or in which an adoption society has not quite satisfied itself as to the suitability of a prospective adopter.

This section, of course, raises the general question of the desirability, or otherwise, of setting age limits for children who may be adopted. I think it can be said that practically everybody agrees that adoption while a child is very young, rather than at the age of ten or 12, should be the norm. On the other hand, most people also will agree— certainly I would agree— that there are exceptional cases in which legal adoption of an older child might take place with complete success. The question, then, is whether it is desirable to try to make provision for these exceptional cases.

My attitude is that we should not try to cater for these exceptional cases and that to attempt to do so would endanger the whole structure and I think it is right that I should make clear to the House that my attitude in this regard is, to my certain knowledge, shared by many qualified persons with long experience of this kind of work.

In explaining or defending this attitude, I think it is important to make a distinction. There is a fundamental difference between the problems that arise in relation to the legal adoption of an older child who has been with the family from its early childhood and the adoption of an older child who has been placed with the family much later. Where a child has been with a family since early childhood, it is quite probable that in many cases an adoption order could be made without any significant risk and with benefit to the child and indeed the Board recommended that that should be allowed provided the child was taken into the family before its seventh birthday.

We cannot, however, consider an individual case in isolation or by reference only to the conditions that obtain at the particular time the application for the adoption order is made. If provision for adoption in such a case were made, we must have regard to the probable repercussions on other cases and, unfortunately, experience has shown very clearly that if the law allows adoptive parents to defer indefinitely the making of an application for an adoption order, quite a few of them will neglect to apply while the child is still young and the child spends most of its early years without the security which an adoption order brings and without having available to it a birth certificate in the surname of the adoptive parents. It is one thing to make provision for cases that arose in the past, such as was made in Section 19 of the 1952 Act and is proposed again in Section 3 of this Bill, but, for all future cases, the strict statutory provision that application may in no circumstances be deferred until the child has passed its ninth birthday is, I submit, most definitely desirable in the general interests of all children placed with families with a view to adoption.

When we come to consider the question of legally adopting children who were not taken into the family at an early age, much more serious problems arise. All the experts are agreed that there are special difficulties and dangers associated with the adoption of older children. In the Dáil, I quoted extracts from a document produced by the European Seminar on Inter-country Adoption, prepared under United Nations auspices, and while that document dealt primarily with inter-country adoption it stressed repeatedly that legal adoption of an older child, even in its own country, is fraught with so many dangers that it should not be contemplated except under the guidance of the most highly skilled experts in this field. If any Senator would like me, at a later stage, to quote these extracts again, I shall be glad to do so but in the meantime they are available in the Official Report of the debate in the Dáil.

There are two points about this that I would like to stress. The first is that we have not yet developed in this country any substantial body of specialists in this particular field, even though progress is certainly being made. The second, and perhaps more important, point is that, unlike most countries, where the law permits the adoption of legitimate children and, consequently, the re-adoption of adopted children, an adoption order, once validly made under our law, is final. This means that if a mistake is made, it cannot be rectified but that is the price that we have to pay for the permanence of legal adoption with the benefits that it brings to the general body of adopted children who are placed in the same legal position as if they had been born into the families into which they have been adopted. Since there can be no going back on an adoption order, there is no room for mistakes and, consequently, no significant risk can be taken in individual cases. It would require only a very few failures to cast a shadow over the whole structure of legal adoption.

Section 5 deals with age limits of the adopters. The present minimum age limit for adopters, other than relatives, is 30 years. The Bill proposes to reduce the limit to 25 years where a couple have been married for at least three years. This was recommended by the Board and has, I think, been generally welcomed.

Section 5 also proposes to drop the present requirement that an applicant for an adoption order must, unless he has resided here for five years, be an Irish citizen. This proposal caused some criticism in the Dáil and, as Senators may have seen, from some organisations outside. I am quite satisfied that these criticisms are based on a misunderstanding of what is involved and I hope to convince the House that there is nothing whatsoever objectionable in the proposal.

I would like to stress that, apart from this particular provision, there is a provision in the law—Section 11 of the 1952 Act—to the effect that applicants for an adoption order must be residing here at the time of the application. It is not proposed to alter that provision. There is, therefore, no question whatsoever that this provision will mean that foreigners can fly in here, put up in an hotel, obtain an adoption order and fly out again in a week's time. They have to be residing here, and that means having their home here. What the proposal does mean is that foreigners who transfer their residence to this country will not be barred from adopting a child during the first five years of their residence here. There is no reason why they should be.

This provision in no way modifies the strict obligation on the Board not to grant an adoption order unless they are satisfied as to the suitability of the applicants, and if the Board are satisfied that a foreigner resident here is suitable—may I stress that it is only if he is resident here that the provision has any application—there is no reason why he should not be allowed to adopt a child. I would like to mention, too, that not only is the existing prohibition arbitrary in that it excludes quite suitable applicants but it has no merit as a safeguard. Irish citizenship has no direct bearing on a person's contacts with this country and in no way assists or facilitates the Board in deciding whether the applicant is suitable. In fact an Irish citizen may have been born abroad and may have lived abroad all his life. And, of course, under the 1952 Act, only the husband need be a citizen.

It is significant that, when this country was represented recently at a Council of Europe Conference on legal adoption, and a proposal was made that countries should never forbid legal adoption merely on the ground that the applicants were not citizens, it turned out that no country in the Council, apart from ourselves, prohibited resident foreigners from adopting a child. Admittedly our law does not prohibit them completely. They may adopt after five years, but this concession is practically valueless since by then they are eligible for naturalisation anyway.

Section 6 of the Bill relates to religion. Section 12 of the 1952 Act provides that an adoption order may not be made unless the applicant, or applicants, the child and the child's mother are all of the same religion. The Board may, however, having regard to the special circumstances of a particular case, make an adoption order although all these persons are not of the same religion, provided each of them belongs to one of the following religions: the Church of Ireland, the Presbyterian Church in Ireland, the Methodist Church in Ireland, the Religious Society of Friends in Ireland, the Baptist Union of Ireland and the Brethren, commonly known as the Plymouth Brethren.

This provision in the 1952 Act was inserted at the joint request of the authorised representatives of the religions that I have mentioned. Those representatives and the representatives of the Salvation Army have now jointly requested that the Salvation Army be added to the list. I am sure that the House will readily agree to this request, and Section 6 proposes accordingly.

Section 7 is only a drafting amendment, to clear up a possible defect in those provisions of the 1952 Act relating to the fixing of a date of birth for a foundling or other person whose date of birth is unknown. The law as it stands enables the Board to fix a date of birth in such cases and that date of birth is accepted for all purposes, but it is not certain that if the actual date of birth subsequently becomes known the Board is entitled to amend it in the records and to authorise the Registrar of Births to amend the register. Section 7 proposes to make it clear that the Board has this power.

In moving the Second Reading of the Bill in the Dáil, I described what is now section 8—it was then section 7— of the Bill, relating to interim orders, as merely a drafting amendment. I was challenged on that, so, to avoid an unnecessary controversy on words, I would like now simply to explain what the section does. Under the 1952 Act, the Board is entitled to make an interim order where, but only where, it would be lawful for them to make an adoption order, that is a final order. It is, however, lawful for the Board to make an adoption order only where they are satisfied not only that the adopters and the child are eligible as to age and in respect of matters capable of being proved by documentary evidence, but also that the adopters are persons of good moral character, have sufficient means to adopt the child, and are generally suitable persons in whom to vest parental rights.

The generally accepted function of an interim order, not only in this country but elsewhere, is that it serves as a provisional approval by the competent authority, but subject to the further test of a trial period. In other words, it is envisaged that an interim order may be granted where the competent authority is fairly well satisfied but may have some doubts on some aspect of suitability—perhaps it may be the health of the adopters or it may be the ability of the adopters and the child to establish a parent-child relationship. It was suggested in the Dáil that the Board should never make an interim order unless absolutely satisfied as to the suitability of the applicants, and that the function of the interim order should be to resolve some doubt about some such matter as the environment, but that is an unreal suggestion, in my opinion. "Suitability" of the adopters does not mean suitability in the abstract, but suitability in relation to the particular child in respect of whom the adoption order is sought and it includes such matters as health and environment in so far as these are relevant to the Board's decision whether or not to grant an adoption order. There is no doubt whatsoever that an interim order is designed precisely to test the suitability of the adopters and that, as the 1952 Act is worded on this particular point, it may very well be that the Board could never lawfully make an interim order.

Section 9 of the Bill is merely a drafting point to remove a doubt about the Board's power to adjourn applications. Section 10 of the Bill is an important section, which has caused some little controversy, much of which is based on a misunderstanding of its implications and, it may be thought, insufficient acquaintance with the realities.

In recommending this section to the Seanad, I would like to repeat that what it proposes is to remove an obstacle to legal adoption that was imposed, quite unwittingly I am certain, by the Oireachtas when passing the Children (Amendment) Act, 1957. The relevant provision of the 1957 Act was introduced by way of amendment in response to some suggestions that were made in the course of the debate, and it is quite clear that the Oireachtas was not thinking at all in terms of the effects on children placed with a family with a view to legal adoption.

In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that, in its present form, section 2 of the 1957 Act, if consistently enforced by local authorities, would have gone a long way towards bringing the work of legal adoption to a halt. It would have meant, not only that prospective adopters would have been subjected to two quite distinct systems of inspection and supervision, one by the local authority and one by the Board, not to mention supervision by an adoption society as well, but that prospective adopters would have been obliged by law to ascertain and pass on to local authorities particulars which in several cases they do not know themselves, that they do not want to know, and that could, if known to them, be a source of constant anxiety.

Senators will no doubt have seen, from the newspapers, that certain organisations have been condemning this section. I have no desire whatsoever to appear to be critical of the members of the committees of these organisations but, when I find that letters published by them are being quoted by members of the Oireachtas as arguments against the section, I do not think I have any option but to point out that they do not seem, even yet, to understand either what the implications of the present law are or what the effect of the proposal in the Bill will be.

It has been alleged that the only criticism that I have made of the Children (Amendment) Act, 1957, is that it would compel prospective adopters to furnish information to a local authority which it is plainly undesirable that they should be asked to furnish and which, if they were required to furnish it, could very well place the particular adoption in jeopardy. The validity of this criticism has been accepted by the organisations concerned, but it has been suggested that the way to meet it is to let the 1957 Act stand, omitting the obligation to furnish the personal particulars specified.

That, however, was merely one of several serious criticisms of the 1957 Act. I mentioned it, and possibly stressed it, not as the only or the major objection but as an objection which was so self-evident that even those who appeared to be irrevocably committed to the idea of local authority inspection should recognise its force. But there are, as I say, other and more fundamental objections.

Under the Children (Amendment) Act, 1957, it is necessary to notify the local authority where arrangements are made for the placement of an illegitimate child with a family, even though the family taking the child are receiving no payment. That provision applies only to illegitimate children. Consequently, the mere fact of notifying a local authority of a placement, where there is no question of reward, immediately identifies the child as illegitimate even if no personal particulars are supplied. It is, of course, a fact that a majority of adopted children are illegitimate but, in the ordinary way, there is no evidence that any particular adopted child is illegitimate and, as those with practical experience in this field have pointed out to me, it can be very important in some cases that prospective adopters should not be forced to know with certainty that the child they are adopting is illegitimate.

They may have perfectly valid reasons for this attitude. For instance, if the adopted child wishes later on to ask them for information about his origins, the adopters may feel it important to be able to tell him truthfully that they do not know. But, quite apart from that, most reasonable people would agree that it is wrong that prospective adopters should, even if they themselves have the information, be forced to disclose to the local authority, which often in practice means disclosing to persons known to them personally, that the child proposed to be adopted is illegitimate.

Even if the linking of legal adoption procedures with procedures designed to protect unwanted illegitimate children from exploitation did not cause these serious practical problems, it is difficult to see how anybody could seriously contend that prospective adopters who are offering a home and security to an unwanted child should be subjected, not just to one system of official supervision—we all accept that that is necessary as a safeguard against possible abuses—but to two separate systems of official supervision, one under the auspices of the Adoption Board and the other under the auspices of a local authority, not to mention the checks and enquiries carried out by the adoption society.

It has been suggested also that there is a practical objection to these proposals on the grounds—so it is alleged —that the contribution which local authority officers, such as public health nurses and children's officers, can make, both from their local knowledge and their training, are being thrown overboard. The answer to that is, simply, that they are not being thrown overboard. There is nothing in this Bill to interefere in the slightest degree with the arrangements which already exist whereby the Board can, whenever and in so far as it wishes, ask these officers to carry out inspections and make a report.

Not only does the Bill not prohibit such an arrangement but there is no intention of abolishing the arrangement in practice, though the need for it may become less over the years if it is decided to expand the Board's inspectorial staff. But even then these local officers are almost certain to be asked for assistance in many cases. The essential point, however, is this: that they would do this work, as they have already agreed to do it, as agents of the Board and under the aegis of the Board, and their reports will come to the Board and will not be filed in the local authority's records or indeed submitted to the local authority at all. In other words, we can have the full benefit of the services of these officers without bringing the local authority, as such, into the picture, with all the attendant disadvantages of this latter course.

It has also been suggested that what is now proposed will mean that the child will lose the "protection" of advance inspection by the local authority. I must make clear that I, for one, would not support the proposition that those who are devoting their lives to the charitable work of finding homes for unwanted children should be subjected to the serious obstacles that I have outlined for no more solid reason than that there was a theoretical possibility that some of them, sometime, might make an error which local authority inspection might possibly prevent. But it is, in any event, a fundamental error to confuse the functions of a local authority under the Children Acts with those of an authority concerned with legal adoption. A local authority can insist only on minimum standards—they can hardly interfere unless there is positive neglect, provable cruelty or grossly inadequate accommodation.

If an adoption society were to place children in homes that were so obviously unsuitable that an advance inspection by a local authority would rule them out under the Children's Acts, then that Society would not only be unfit to be registered but so unfit that it is absurd to suggest that they could be kept on the register by the Board. To imply, in legislation, that the minimum standards enforceable under the Children Acts have any relevance to what is appropriate for legal adoption would set an entirely false headline, would establish a standard that is quite inadequate and would, therefore, degrade the whole concept of legal adoption.

Finally, I would like to make clear that this section has been considered by the Board who agree with it, as indeed they do with the entire Bill with the minor reservation that I mentioned earlier about section 3.

I think that I have covered most of the points that arise in the Bill and I recommend it to the House.

While I am glad to know the Adoption Act of 1952 has been reviewed and amended, I am perturbed by some of the proposed changes and the effect they will have on the welfare of the children to whom the legislation relates.

The proposal in Section 3 (1) (a) to raise the maximum age at which a child may be adopted from seven to nine years is a small advance but the qualification at (b) restricting the application to cases where the applicant has had the child in his care since before it attained the age of seven years seems to be unnecessary and could deprive a large number of children of the chance of being adopted and enjoying a normal home life.

In the debate in the Dáil, a plea was made for the raising of the maximum age limit very considerably but the Minister would not accept the proposal. Yet there exists a need to facilitate the adoption of persons of a higher age group. All are agreed, of course, that the ideal is infant adoption but a little thought will reveal circumstances where adoption at a much later stage of life would not seem unrealistic.

In the broader thinking of today, a very kindly practice has grown up. It is becoming an increasing custom for people to take children out of institutions to spend summer and other holidays with them and their own children. The guest children often fit in so well with the other children and become so much a part of the family that there is an unwillingness to let them go back to the institutions and adoption is not beyond the bounds of possibility.

Children taken in such circumstances are not as a rule in the infant or toddler stage but are boys and girls of ten years and over who sometimes become part and parcel of the family. I think the door should be left wide open to permit of adoption in this and other cases which might arise from time to time. I can see no possible reason for closing the door at seven or nine years of age, particularly when we know how bleak the future is for young people in institutions and how much bleaker it can be when they must eventually leave the institutions—often ill-equipped to earn their livelihoods except in the most menial employments.

It is an improvement in the Bill to have the age of the adoptive parents reduced from 30 to 25 years. I am glad the Minister has made this change but I would ask him to look again at the question of limiting so drastically the maximum age at which legal adoption is permitted.

Subsection (4) of Section 11 of the Principal Act reads:

An adoption order shall not be made unless the applicants reside in the State.

That provision is to remain but what does "reside" mean? With respect, I would say it appears to be meaningless, more particularly when subsection (5) of the Principal Act is to be repealed. This subsection reads:

An adoption order shall not be made unless the applicant or, if the applicants are a married couple, the husband is an Irish citizen or has been ordinarily resident in the State during the five years preceding the date of the application.

I feel this is a dangerous change in that it could leave the door wide open for Irish children to be taken to any country in the world by persons whose backgrounds could not really be properly investigated. I hope I am wrong in that but that is how it appears to me. I would ask the Minister if any difficulties arose from the subsection now proposed to be deleted during the time the Adoption Bill of 1952 has been in operation.

Again, with respect, I would say that we should endeavour to keep these children in Ireland. They are Irish citizens and we should be careful not to deprive them of their citizenship as we will do if we permit them to be taken abroad by persons who would merely reside here for a short time to qualify for an adoption order. I think the word "reside" in subsection (a) should be clearly defined or clearly explained by the Minister.

The subsection to be deleted appears to me to be a useful safeguard for a deprived child. It would to some degree ensure that there would be a good chance of its being brought up, if not in its native land, at least, in an atmosphere which had some touch of its homeland.

I understand also that some countries do not recognise adoptions negotiated in other countries and persons emigrating may find themselves in difficulties in regard to such children who will have to be readopted under the laws of the country they desire to enter. Under the British adoption laws, I am informed, where adoptive parents intend taking children out of the country, they will be issued only a provisional adoption order. The final adoption order has to be sought under the law of the country to which the child is being taken.

Children legally adopted here could, on reaching adult years, find themselves in other countries without rights and subject to immigration laws which in certain circumstances could lead to deportation. There could also be nationality problems for such a child. I would repeat that it would be a good thing if we would aim at the adoption of these children in their own country. If this country expands and develops as we all hope it will, we will need all our children, whatever the circumstances of their birth, to help in that development. We should do everything possible to protect the child's right to live in the country of its birth until it is of an age to decide otherwise.

Section 8 of the Bill, as passed by Dáil Éireann, seeks to permit the Adoption Board to grant an interim adoption order in respect of a child where the Board is not satisfied that the applicant is, among other things, of good moral character and is not a suitable person to have parental rights and duties but where it is of opinion that before the expiration of the probationary period, the applicant is likely to come up to the desired standard. Is this not a very dangerous provision and most unfair to a child?

It would be, if the Board were irresponsible, but it is not.

It is how it seems to me and I should be very glad if the Minister would make that point clear. I cannot see the need for such a provision.

I have read the Minister's explanation in the Dáil regarding Section 9 which proposes to withdraw Section 2 of the Children (Amendment) Act, 1957, where a child is being placed with a family with a view to legal adoption. The Minister did not seem to agree with this in his Dáil statement but I still feel that the provision means that a very valuable safeguard, that is, the local authority supervision, will be withdrawn from the child. I still feel this in spite of what the Minister says.

I agree excessive supervision would discourage persons from undertaking legal adoption, as the Minister mentioned, but can he assure us that the Adoption Board can and will exercise a satisfactory supervision on its own? This is not a reflection on the Board; it is merely an inquiry as to whether the Board has a sufficient staff to cover all the cases of long-term inspections arising in different parts of the country. Would the Minister say, for instance, if the Board carries out inspections in all cases before placements? I am not clear about that. I am of the opinion that the Board would be better served if the work of long-term inspection were left, as under the Children (Amendment) Act, to the local authorities which have the trained staff for the work. An amendment could be made to delete some undesirable points such as giving names and so forth.

I would agree that there should not be duplicate inspections. It seems to me that local information is most valuable in discovering unsuitable placements. People will not talk to strangers seeking information, and sometimes it is difficult for an outsider to discover what are the real conditions. Local officers would be better equipped to come to a proper decision. I think the Minister should look at the new provision again, as it appears to be scrapping a valuable safeguard for the child.

Section 10 makes provision for the repeal of Section 19 of the Principal Act. Would there be any value, I would ask the Minister, in amending and retaining Section 19 so as to enable the Board, or the Minister, at his discretion, to permit legal adoption at a higher age in exceptional circumstances?

I am not quite sure if a reference to birth certificates is in order, but they were mentioned in the other House. I would press, as some other members have already done, for the issue of short birth certificates only, but that in exceptional circumstances—as was referred to also—such as inheritance cases, the long certificate should be available. It seems to me to be very cruel in this enlightened day that we should condemn an innocent human being to produce a document which not only casts a shadow over him, but which could serve to retard his advancement in life. I hope we will not have to wait too long until some very courageous Minister for Justice will issue the order that the only birth certificate——

It has nothing to do with the Minister for Justice; it is a matter for the Minister for Health.

I am sorry. I hope whoever it is will see that in future there will be certificates only which will give all the necessary particulars regarding the child's birth, but will give no particulars regarding his parentage.

It is timely that the 1952 Adoption Act should be reviewed and, I think, therefore, we all welcome the introduction of this amending Bill. The amending Bill as introduced by the Minister seems rather concerned with the tidying up of some details, covering some mistakes, and allowing for some hard cases. I think something more could have been done on this occasion. The 1952 Act was an extremely important step in the promotion of child welfare and welfare generally in this country. I should not like to let this occasion pass without paying tribute here to Senator Boland who at that time was Minister for Justice, and is now a member of this House.

It would have been advisable to have had a full scale review, not merely by the Minister talking unilaterally to the different parties concerned, but a full scale review of this important topic by bringing all the interests together. All the people who have spoken and written about adoption, before and after the introduction of the Bill, have essentially the same objective and the same idea—to promote welfare. There has been a difference of approach and in many cases that difference of approach has resulted in a sharp clash of opinion.

That is the position in which the Minister finds himself. There has been this sharp clash of opinion in regard to certain aspects of this measure. It might have been better if those conflicts were worked out within a reviewing body before anything was embodied in the form of a Bill which would come to the Dáil and the Seanad. The Minister appears to take the attitude that after his review of the work of the 1952 Act, he is satisfied with it—satisfied that this Bill is 100 per cent successful—but I think in an area such as this it is extremely difficult, first, to define, and secondly, to assess the degree of success of the work involved.

This review was made by the Adoption Board in the first instance.

Any work in regard to adoption has got three main objectives: first, it is intended to relieve the mother; secondly, it is intended to bring happiness to the adopting parents: and thirdly, the most important of all, it is intended to give a real chance to the child concerned. Those three objectives have to be harmonised. That is not easy, and if we are to look for maximum success in the harmonising of those three objectives, this is something that must be thoroughly examined.

I do not think we can be satisfied with saying that success is achieved when an adoption order is made. The measure of success is not merely the making of the adoption order, because from the point of view of welfare, and particularly of the welfare of the child, the making of the adoption order is the beginning only. It is not the end of the business. Indeed even in regard to natural parenthood, how can we judge success or evaluate success in regard to the rearing of children?

So while we can leave the details of the Bill to the Committee Stage, it is well to take a look at the system in the 1952 Act directly, to take a look at the different elements in the system and see perhaps if there are not directions in which there might be some degree of improvement. The elements of our system in this country are the Adoption Board, the adoption societies, the adoptable child, the prospective adopters and the mothers of the adoptable children

I think we can say that the decision in this country to work through a board rather than through the courts has, by and large, been a success, but we must remember that what the Board is doing and what the Board was set up to do was to perform a particular judicial function, to perform a function in regard to the extinction of certain rights and the creation of others.

The peculiar thing about the Board is that it has been set up to make judicial decisions in accordance with certain welfare principles, and we must therefore be careful to remember this primary nature of the Board and to be very slow to think of the Board as being merely a welfare agency or to allow that part of the Board's work which has the nature of the work of the welfare agency to become overlarge. I am afraid there has been a tendency for this to happen.

Indeed, even if it has not happened in the past, it may well happen under the proposals the Minister is now bringing forward, and the unfortunate quarrel concerning the functions of the local authorities in regard to a child placed for adoption has arisen because of this tendency for the Adoption Board to become, as it were, a welfare agency.

What would be most desirable is that in regard to the welfare of the child—of any child, but in this case of the adoptive child—the Adoption Board and the local authority should be acting in concert rather than in conflict, that their aim and the aim of the Minister or other Ministers concerned should be to ensure the existence at local level of welfare workers sufficient in number and in training to deal with all the aspects of child welfare.

I do not want to go into the problems of Section 2 of the 1957 Children Act and the amendments to it, which can be better discussed in Committee, but I would suggest that this is an area in which there is scope for using the local authorities in the particular aspect in which they can be used. As Senator Miss Davidson has pointed out, there is no real substitute for local knowledge.

If we take a look at another element in the system as we have it at the moment, if we look at the adoption societies, let me say straight away that these are an extremely valuable part of our adoption system since they can ensure the child is placed in a home which is both generally suitable and is also suitable for the particular child. We must realise this work is the great contribution the adoption societies make as opposed to the third party adoption of the child at a very early age, at the infant stage. For the best results, these adoption societies should have an adequate supply of trained social welfare workers, a regular system of operation, and they should have at some level a representation of the various points of view with regard to this problem, whether on a general committee or on special case committees dealing with individual children.

In so far as adoptions here can be criticised, there has been a tendency to lack this bringing together of different points of view, a tendency for those concerned with adoptions to be segregated, each of which is taking a narrow point of view. Anything to overcome this would help to improve our adoption system as it now stands. Another thing we see about societies is that they seem badly spread throughout the country. There may be good and sufficient reasons for this but one would hope to see a better distribution of adoption societies growing up in the years ahead. I understand new societies were recently formed in Kilkenny and Killarney and this is a very laudable development.

Part IV of the 1952 Act does give the Adoption Board control of the registration of adoption societies, but as it stands I think it is rather bald and one would expect, reading it as it stands, that the provisions in this section would have been supplemented by regulations which would have been issued indicating in broad outlines and in regard to minimum standards certain norms to which adoption societies would be asked to conform.

In this respect, we might remember that Section 30 of the British Act of 1958 is more stringent than the corresponding Section 36 of our 1952 Act. In particular, the British Act brings out the point that the adoption society must not only be competent to carry out its activities but must also have the staff and the facilities to carry them out to the extent to which it is operating. Our Act merely asks for competence and we can all agree that a particular organisation, a particular number of trained staff, might well be developed to carry out work at a particular scale. The level of activity might increase and while one would hesitate to say such a society was then not competent, still you could get the position that this society, by the extent of its activities, would be strained beyond its resources.

There is need for regulations of some sort here. If we look at the position as it stands, we have at the moment something like 700 adoptions per year. It is something for which we are all very thankful. That is no reason why we should be satisfied and should not look for an increase in this number. It is good that 700 children find families and homes under the Adoption Act but we should also all agree that it is a tragedy that so many of our children, between the ages of 2½ and 16 are still housed in institutions. We should all agree that anything that can be done to increase the number of children now in institutions who would become adoptable should have the support of everybody interested in this problem.

Inquiries suggest that a large number of children in institutions are not adopted because there is difficulty in getting the mother's consent. In many instances, the mother is apparently content to leave the child in the institution from the age of 2½ to 16 and then reclaim the child at the age of 16 when the child is a potential earner. However much respect we have for the natural right of a mother—indeed, we must have every respect for it—I think what we have here is the question of the right of a mother to exploit the child by leaving it in an institution and preventing, by withholding consent, the child getting a part in a family, and reclaiming the child at 16 when the child is able to work.

Regarding the provisions of the Bill as introduced here, there has been a great deal of discussion on the question of age and this is a point that will come up again on Committee Stage. Everybody agrees with what the Minister said, that early placement and early adoption are preferable but that is no reason, I think, why there should be brought in a curtain of prohibition at the age of seven or nine and that all adoptions beyond that age should be refused. If one looks at the Bill as it stands, it appears that the extension to nine years of age given under the Bill is only to be an exceptional thing, only to occur in particular circumstances. Does the Minister envisage that the extension to the age of nine should be something rare?

I explained it in my speech.

Has the Minister anything to add to that explanation?

It is meant to cater for special circumstances.

Perhaps we should leave this to the Committee Stage when it can be discussed in more detail. I raised the point because the Minister has indicated that the age at which the child can be adopted may be raised to nine years of age but there are no corresponding amendments in other parts of the Principal Act. For instance, the prohibition on a child leaving the country still remains at seven so that I feel the Minister is still taking the point of view that seven is the age limit for adoption, except in very exceptional circumstances.

Perhaps hard cases make bad law and the plea that there should be adoption above the ages of seven or nine is a plea about hard cases. But if hard cases make bad law, I think Sections 2 and 3 of the Bill are very bad law indeed. I should like to make a few points at this stage in regard to the provisions in these sections. Section 2 allows the adoption of a child legitimated but not re-registered. This device appears to me undesirable and I suggest it might be preferable to redefine the meaning of "illegitimate" in Section 10 of the Principal Act as meaning "illegitimate at birth" or "illegitimate at the time of placement". This would seem to be a better way out of the problem the Minister is endeavouring to meet in Section 2.

Apart from this, I think that the provision the Minister makes in subsection (2) of Section 2 with regard to the consent of the natural father is not necessarily a desirable one. The requirement that in the case where there has been a subsequent marriage, the consent not only of the mother but also of the natural father is required for adoption to take place, could be effective only if there were a conflict between the mother and the natural father. Even under the Act as it stands, if the mother refused consent, there could be no adoption: the only point in bringing in the consent of the natural father would be that the natural father can block the adoption where the mother is prepared to consent. If the mother is prepared to consent, it would appear that this is fairly good evidence that the mother is not prepared to bring the child into the new home. The position then is that the failure of the natural father to consent means that the child who is not acceptable in the new home because of the mother's attitude is by the natural father's refusal to consent, condemned to live in an institution rather than allowed to be adopted into a new family. Again, this point could be gone into on Committee Stage.

Regarding the provisions about adoptive parents in Section 5, I think there will be a general welcome but there is one point I should like to raise now. Under the amending Bill, married people may adopt from the age of 25, provided they are three years married. I should like to raise the point that if adoption is to take place three years after marriage, there might be very early placement with a view to subsequent adoption and I think there should be some control over the placement of children too soon after marriage. It would be undesirable if there were placement with a view to adoption by a young couple, say, of 23, one year after marriage. Even though the child could not be adopted for another two years, placement could take place. I do not think this would be good adoption practice.

I should like the Minister to explain further than what he said in his Second Stage speech as to how an interim order will work. It is still not clear from what the Minister has said how the order would operate and what the advantage of it would be. Certainly, one effect would be to give a very false sense of security to prospective adoptive parents and I think it could be a real difficulty. I think this device of the interim order might well be a dangerous thing, if not properly used.

In regard to the question of citizenship and children going abroad, again, this is a matter which evokes a great deal of controversy and will undoubtedly arise on the Committee Stage. I should like to ask the Minister one question in regard to children sent abroad, not having been legally adopted. I am satisfied in regard to the precautions taken regarding the issue of passports for such children but I should like to ask the Minister whether the number of children allowed abroad in this way is reported and published in any public document? Is it reported to the Department of Health, to the Minister's Department or to the Adoption Board? It is desirable that this number should be on record.

There are some points I want to raise at this stage because they could not arise on Committee Stage. It has been represented to me that serious difficulties could arise during the placement period if the mother shows a tendency to change her mind regarding the placement of the child. It has been represented to me that a mother having placed her child with prospective adoptive parents through an adoption society may then inform the adoption society; "I want my child back next Saturday." In many cases, the mother will not turn up to claim the child on that day but the adoption society must tell the prospective adoptive parents with whom the child is placed to have the child ready for return. There have been cases where this has happened continuously and it could give rise to grave anxiety on the part of the prospective parents with whom the child is placed.

Perhaps that may be one answer to the Senator's question about the interim order.

Perhaps it would be. I shall consider that and see whether it would meet it or not. I would urge on the Minister that this could have a very serious effect on the child and on the adoptive parents.

I wonder if the Minister would consider in regard to this point that under Section 39 of the Principal Act, the mother must sign a statutory form before releasing the child for placement and I wonder, if there were some simple formal process before she was enabled to reclaim the child from custody, if that would prevent a mother indulging in these quasi-hysterical manoeuvres of wishing to reclaim the child, perhaps actually reclaiming the child, perhaps only expressing an intention to do so. It would seem as if it would be better to have some formal process rather than merely a question of calling to the office of the adoption society and saying that the child had to come back. That position in Great Britain is that the mother can reclaim the child from replacement only if she can show that she can give the child a home. Here we have absolutely no limitation on this.

There is one further point with regard to consent that I should like to raise. I should like to ask the Minister specifically what is the interpretation being given to the phrase "cannot be found" in Section 14 of the 1952 Act, the section dealing with dispensation with consent. This is a phrase, of course, which could be subject to many meanings. There is no doubt that a needle can be found in a haystack if sufficient effort is made to find it but just how is this interpreted in practice in regard to the finding of a mother before her consent is dispensed with? It might be preferable that the actual practice might be perhaps expressed a little better in the Bill itself.

A final point in regard to consent: I wonder if the Minister has considered and will let us have his views on the question of the consent of a young mother when the situation is known to her family. We could have the case here of a mother of 14 or 15 years of age and, under the law as it stands, her consent alone can release that child for the purpose of adoption away from her and away from her whole family. If the situation were not known to this young mother's family, there is no reason why the situation should be made known to them, but in the case where the situation is known to her family, it might well be that a member of her family, an elder sister or somebody like that, might prefer to take this child rather than see it pass completely outside the family. This is a point which might be considered.

Finally, though these matters are not the Minister's responsibility, there are a few points in regard to registration which do affect adoptable children that I should like to bring up. Persons connected with adoption work from different aspects have suggested that there is some incidence in this country of what is in effect infant adoption through false registration. I have no direct knowledge of the extent to which this is going on but people who differ about a great deal in regard to adoption work seem to be at one that there is an element of this type of thing happening. Here we have a case where the first registration of a child is a false registration and, in fact, a third party adoption takes place and the false registration makes it a legal adoption. In one sense this might be considered to be a good thing in that it does certainly cover things up but I do not think, looked at from the point of view of modern adoption practice, that this is necessarily the best solution because this means, in fact, rapid adoption, adoption at a very, very early stage of infant life and this is certainly not preferable to legal adoption where care is taken in order to place the child in the home that would be most suitable for that child.

This may be a situation which could well be examined and, indeed, if there were an element of false registration going on in this country the fact that in this country 80 per cent of our adoptions are through adoption societies, which is very much higher than occurs in other countries, might not be a matter for congratulation; it might well be an indication that adoptions that take place as open, third party adoptions elsewhere are taking place in this country by false registration.

There is one final point on registration which I wish to raise. I understand the position is that the original registration of an illegitimate birth is not erased from the general register. The position is, of course, under the Adoption Acts, that the link of the new identity with that originally entered is preserved as confidential but a case has come to my notice of a search being made in the general register for an illegitimate birth by an individual who had absolutely no moral right to make this search and one fears that by leaving these original registrations open to search, we might well be facilitating persons who could possibly be in a situation to influence or even blackmail some of the persons concerned in the adoption.

Everybody has a right to search the register. It is a public register.

It is the illegitimacy he is talking about, rather than the register.

He is talking about the right to search the register. As the Senator has mentioned, it is not my responsibility.

I realise that it is none of the Minister's responsibilities but I do bring forward the point and I do say in regard to persons who appear on the general register and are afterwards adopted that it is most unfortunate that the situation is as it is.

I would therefore say to the Minister that I regret that a great deal of the discussion which has taken place outside the Oireachtas and inside the Oireachtas in regard to this Bill has been contentious when this might well have been avoided if there had been a thorough public discussion of the matter beforehand.

You could not avoid contention with some people.

I hope the Minister is not directing that remark at any member of this House.

I do feel that the Bill itself, as we consider it, is, while welcome, somewhat of a disappointment and we will leave it to the Committee Stage to plumb the depths of that disappointment.

This Bill clearly makes several improvements in the previous Act. We are not ungrateful for those but, such is the hard way of the world inside Leinster House and outside Leinster House, I propose to confine my remarks to what I consider are inadequacies in the Bill.

I must say at the outset that the Minister in his introductory remarks shed a good deal of new light on some rather cloudy corners of the Dáil debate. I think he has satisfied us on some points that still remained unsatisfactory until this evening. But a few queries and a few uncertainties remain in my mind, and I will be grateful if the Minister would help me to resolve them.

I must confess that I am not an expert in the rather complicated procedure demanded for adoption and, of course, necessarily complicated and necessarily careful because it is a most important decision to make. In what I have to say I will talk for a moment or two first about what is not in the Bill and perhaps should be. Here my chief worry is with this question of placement. As I understand it, a child may for several months, perhaps six months or nine months, be in the home of the persons who wish to adopt before the case comes before the Adoption Board at all. That is, there is a preliminary six months, nine months or perhaps longer time, and it has been suggested—but this suggestion has also been questioned—that the regulations controlling those preliminary months are not satisfactory.

The Minister knows exactly what the criticisms have been. But I am not quite clear what his answer is. What are the regulations controlling these initial months? Who makes these regulations? How exactly does what is called "case committee" come in? Under what regulations? I would be grateful if the Minister could remove uncertainties from my mind, therefore, because there has been a clear suggestion that the initial precautions are unsatisfactory. The Minister said that the only welfare authority concerned is the Adoption Board. But I think it is true to say that as far as placement is concerned, this may have been an accomplished fact for several months before the case comes before the Adoption Board. I should be grateful if the Minister can shed light on that particular question.

I come now to what is in the Bill. These matters have been all raised before in this House and they have been raised before in the Dáil. Yet I must refer to them because I think they are matters of supreme importance. When we come to the Committee Stage, no doubt we shall have fairly strenuous tussles over them.

The first is the matter of the age of the child for adoption. My great uneasiness of mind in this comes from the simple fact that in Norway and in certain States in Canada—Quebec, at any rate—and in the United Kingdom a child can be adopted up to 21 years. These are countries governed by wise Governments. I do not quite see why we should dissociate ourselves so rigorously from them. In France and Spain, the regulation is that there should be 15 years' difference between the age of the child and his adopters —an interesting point of view. It implies that what really matters is that parents should be a good way ahead of the child in life. I think that this attitude is worth considering. In Latin America, the same criterion is demanded, not based on the absolute age of the child or his parents but on a difference of 18 years between the age of the child and that of his parents —again, I think, an intelligent way of approaching it. Therefore, I wonder just why the Minister is being quite so rigid on this. I see the point when he says that the sooner a child is adopted, the better. On the other hand, I do not quite see why the axe should fall at seven or nine years. The suggestion that would-be parents will defer adoption if they can carry on to 15 or 21 years does not, I feel, carry full weight. Certainly, the experience of some of the societies is that parents are clamouring for adoption immediately. There is no suggestion of their being cautious or of holding back: there is an urgent demand for children for adoption.

We have had to insert a special section in this Bill to cure quite a few hard-luck cases which arose precisely because people would not go in time to look for adoption.

That seems a good argument. Yet, I am assured that the demand is such that few parents would hold back now. Times may have changed. However, I must consider later what the Minister has just said.

Now I come to a very important point. In the Dáil, the Minister undertook to consider a suggestion by Deputy H.P. Dockrell. The suggestion by the Deputy is to be found at column 914 of the Official Report and the undertaking by the Minister is to be found at column 930. I hope the Minister, before the close of this evening's debate, will let us know his intentions in that regard. It was to do with a suggestion that a relative could adopt up to 21 years. We look forward with very much hope that the Minister is prepared to accept that suggestion.

We have already had some discussion on the residential qualifications. The Minister is entirely satisfied. I still have some lingering doubts. What exactly does "having their home in the State" mean? The Minister's actual words were "Have their home here". I should like a legal definition of that, or I should like to be assured that there is a cast-iron legal definition. Otherwise, what is there to prevent foreigners from coming over here, buying an expensive flat, furnishing it, adopting a child and clearing out right away?

Why bother submitting themselves to the scrutiny and inspection of the Adoption Board?

This is the other aspect of it. In other words, they can get away with it, without any responsibility at all?

They can take a child away.

Should we not insert some provision in the Bill to prevent that?

That is a different point. It does not affect this. We are at least here dealing with a couple who are prepared to submit themselves to the inspection of the Adoption Board and to satisfy the Board that they are suitable.

Then I think we should tie up the other loophole.

Without any reference to length of residence?

No length of residence. But the Board must be able to satisfy itself that they are suitable.

Here is another point: it has come up before. It concerns Section 10. Some people are "het-up", to use a colloquial phrase, about this. I should like the Minister to assure the Seanad that if this provision about local inspection is waived, the adoption societies and the Adoption Board all have the necessary trained people, the necessary energy and ability to do the job thoroughly. If he is quite certain of that, then perhaps Section 10 should stand as it is.

However, I have received some fairly strong communications on this matter. I shall read the following one:

This prohibition would of course expose the children to all the dangers from which social workers had hoped the 1957 Act would protect the child. How can one know where a child is placed with a view to adoption? They are to notify the Adoption Board, apparently, if the child is placed. The Board has no army of inspectors to go about the country whereas the local authority probably knows already the circumstances of the family and the character of the adoptive parents. These children are the most pathetic and helpless section of the population. This section would remove from them the small measure of protection (1) by the Act of 1957 and leave them once more exposed to exploitation, cruelty, sadism and perversion.

Those are not exactly my words.

I hope not.

I quote them as an indication of the strength of feeling in responsible quarters on this section. Therefore I shall look forward to an even stronger assurance from the Minister on this. In a sense, I think he is shifting the critical focus in raising the matter of illegitimacy and so on. I think that risk has to be weighed against under-inspection, which is the real fear. Senator Miss Davidson spoke well on this. The Minister referred to the inspectorial staff—a fine phrase. Is he quite satisfied that the inspectorial staff at the disposal of the Board is entirely sufficient?

However, I return to the fact that there is much in this Bill that makes improvements, and that we certainly welcome.

Before Senator Jessop speaks, may I ask the House whether it would be prepared to sit later than usual in order to finish the business today and thus avoid sitting tomorrow which would be devoted possibly to only one item?

I assume it is not suggested that we should take the Committee Stage of this Bill?

I think there would be agreement to sit late.

I should like to add my words of welcome to this Bill to those of previous speakers. I find on looking carefully at the Bill that there is much in it to commend my support because it definitely improves what, to my mind, was one of the most important things that has been done in the Oireachtas since I have been a member of this House.

At the same time, I should like to associate myself with Senator Dooge in regard to the debt we owe to the Adoption Board and to adoption societies who have carried out such a wonderful amount of work since the 1952 Act. I am in fairly close touch with the adoption machinery through my own Department, the Department of Social Studies and through various medical colleagues who are involved in midwifery practice and I have been impressed by the almost unanimous view that the 1952 Act has worked extremely well. It has brought happiness to a large number of people through the numerous adoptions that have been promoted under this Act. As far as I can see, it works, on the whole, better than corresponding Adoption Acts in other countries. Perhaps they take more risks. There will be, on the whole, more good done but more risks will be taken. I think we make fewer mistakes and that is perhaps because we are going cautiously in the beginning.

That is not a bad way to start because, as the Minister pointed out, this matter of legal adoption is far too delicate and could be injured by a few mistakes. Our circumstances are rather special and we have to go about this matter cautiously and I do not find myself blaming the Minister for expressing the view he has expressed so cautiously.

I know that in the other House, and already here, a number of points have been raised about defects in this Bill, about things that might have been done and so on. I find myself worried about, or really deeply interested in only one of these points, that is, the point raised by Senator Stanford. In the Dáil, the point was pressed by Deputy Dockrell. It refers to the age at which children can be adopted by relatives, as compared with the age at which corresponding adoption can take place by adoptive parents who are not relatives. The argument Deputy Dockrell put forward was that this age should be higher, if the adoptive parents are closely related to the child, if they are, say, aunts or uncles.

This is a very good point. One of the reasons for not having a higher age for adoptions in Ireland is the risk of incompatibility, because the child, as the Minister pointed out in the extract from the seminar report, who has reached nine, ten, 11 or 12 years has already accumulated life experience and consequently may be more difficult to fit into the new household, but if the new parents are relatives, it is very likely the child may have known them for some time before its natural father or mother died. The adoptive parents may have been aware of any peculiarities the child had in its character. They are choosing the child—this is the probable course of events—in the knowledge of what it is like. If they are not related to the child, it is a blind choice. They have, perhaps, had a certain amount of experience in the preliminary period but this cannot really take the place of the knowledge that relatives will usually have. There is, in addition, a blood relationship.

I think all these add up to a reduction in the amount of risk in regard to incompatibility which may occur between the child and the adoptive parents. I would, therefore, support Senator Stanford, in the hope that the Minister may see his way, when we come to discuss this on Committee Stage, to implement his assurance in the Dáil that he would seriously consider this particular point of view. We hope he will do so with complete sympathy.

I find myself rather uneasy about the question of residence. I am sure the Minister will be able to clear up this matter when he refers to it on Committee Stage but it does appear as if parents may come to the country to establish an appearance of residence, without any real intention of staying here and then going off after the adoption has been accomplished. He says, very reasonably, that anyhow they can take the child away. I do not know how the question of passports and so on, comes in, but at any rate, we would all be reassured if the Minister would give us some explanation about this at the appropriate time. I find myself, on the whole, very well satisfied with this Bill and I support it.

I welcome the Bill because any move made by any Minister to solve the question of what happens to illegitimate children is good. As a member of a local authority for 18 years, I have come up against this problem on many occasions and I have also come up against it in my capacity as a national school teacher. When we had no legal adoption, the question of the illegitimate child became a problem for the local authority. The only system at that time was that the child was boarded out. As a teacher in the national school, I found myself with at least five children on average every year who were boarded out. I hold that the children who were boarded out were only boarded out for profit and that that system was a complete failure

It is for that reason that I welcome any move by the Minister to introduce a system which will make it easy for people to adopt children and I agree that there should be a minimum number of years after marriage before adoptions can be made, that is, three years. The Minister is going in the right direction there. The usual period for people to adopt children was at seven, eight or nine years. I have seen that happen, and I have seen children being adopted, and then children arriving subsequently and I can assure you that the adopted children were loved just as much as the natural children of the parents. No parent has got rid of an adopted child because a child arrived subsequently. The old system we had was that mothers were sent to the county homes. They had their children and the mothers then became servants in the county homes. We have tried to break down that system and Deputy Dr. Browne took an active part in breaking it down and did a good day's work in doing so. I can assure you that I would have no adoption system if I could get the mother to keep the child or the grandmother to keep the child. The child would be much better off with the mother or with the grandmother if that could be done. The mother becomes a sort of slave or prisoner in the home. We have homes at the moment which keep mothers for two full years, if the child is not adopted.

I think the Minister should introduce some measure to do away with these homes. I could mention names. The Minister knows them as well as I do. No mother should be held a prisoner for two years because the only result is to make her hate the very sight of her child. Our aim should be to develop her mother love for the child, make her interested in keeping the child. There is too much of a stigma attaching to these unfortunate people who have illegitimate children. Many of these mothers are very young indeed. It is not always their fault. Their parents do not inform them sufficiently. Possibly the mother died when the children were very young. There are many and varied reasons. There may not have been proper control. They may have been allowed to go to dances at 13, and 14, and 15 years of age. At the moment the number of illegitimate children in rural areas is very small indeed. It is a nine days' wonder now if an illegitimate child is born in the parish. Of course, very often a marriage takes place and the child is born legitimately. That is the tendency. I remember some years ago there were numbers of illegitimate children in various parishes. There are very few today.

Above all, I would impress upon the Minister the need for getting rid of this system whereby mothers are sent to these homes and kept in them for two years.

I have no function in regard to that.

These girls should be sent to maternity hospitals like every other mother. I have had experience of boarded out children who were kept in school until they were 16 even, though the law was that they should be kept in school only until they were 14 years of age. The argument was that at 16 they were more mature and better. The natural tendency where other children were concerned was to ask why these were still in school and then, of course, someone told why they were there. I broke that down myself in Westmeath. I hold it should be broken down all over the country. These children should have the same rights as all other children.

With regard to the period in which investigations are made, and so on, I think that period could be cut. If the mother gets married during the period and claims the child, the whole machinery is upset. I would not make the period too long. I welcome the Bill as a step in the right direction. If possible, I should like some provision whereby mothers of illegitimate children would be encouraged to keep the children and rear them as members of the family.

Most of the matters raised during this discussion are matters which will undoubtedly arise again on Committee Stage. While I should like to deal with the matters raised as fully as possible, I feel I should be to some extent wasting the time of the Seanad if I were to go into them in detail now. I should, however, like to answer some of the specific queries put to me.

Senator Stanford and Senator Jessop spoke about the discussion which took place in the Dáil on Deputy Dockrell's amendment and my undertaking to examine it further. I regret to have to say that, so far, I have not been convinced the amendment is necessary. As I said in the Dáil, it seems to me that the orphan child who is taken by relatives is far less in need of adoption than other children placed for adoption. I think it might not be any harm, however, if either Senator Stanford or Senator Jessop put down a specific amendment along the lines of Deputy Dockrell's amendment to give the Seanad an opportunity of discussing the matter fully and examining all the pros and cons.

Senator Dooge mentioned the clash of opinion which has taken place outside this House. One might be inclined to get a wrong impression as a result of what has happened. I should like to point out that people all over the country who are interested in this work, and who support the proposals in the Bill, have not entered the controversy. They have said nothing because they believe, as I do, that this sort of public controversy, particularly newspaper controversy, is the worst possible way in which to debate adoption matters. The fact that some people, with a particular view, are more vocal than others, does not mean that there is not a substantial volume of informed opinion throughout the country to support the view I am expressing here. I can assure the House that I am very well buttressed by expert, experienced opinion in putting forward the proposals in this Bill.

Senator Dooge implied that I carried out only a narrow Ministerial or Departmental examination. Nothing could be further from the truth. When I came into office as Minister for Justice, one of the first things in which I took an interest was legal adoption. Far from having only a Departmental examination of the matter, I asked the Adoption Board itself to consider carefully, as a result of all its ten years' experience, what amendment and improvements could usefully be made, and to let me have a comprehensive memorandum on anything they thought necessary. This Bill is the result of that process. It corresponds almost exactly with what the Adoption Board recommended.

I wonder why some people take the line they do in these matters? It seems to me that they are concerned with doctrinaire theorising rather than with the realities of the situation. There is nothing consistent in their approach. There was no consistency even in the approach of Senator Miss Davidson here tonight. On the one hand, Senator Miss Davidson appears to favour measures allowing more adoptions: an increase in the age limits and so on. On the other hand, when she comes to a proposal designed to facilitate suitable adoptions by foreigners resident here, she goes over to the other side and advocates a restrictive approach.

Senator Stanford has asked me to reassure him about this question of residence. It seems to me that the arguments are entirely on the side of what is proposed. As I indicated, we are giving nothing away. This requirement of five years' residence or citizen-ship—and do not forget it is five years or citizenship—is at the moment an illusory safeguard. All it does is that in certain cases it prevents desirable adoptions taking place. What the people criticising this are not taking into account, either deliberately or unconsciously, is that all the time the Board is there. All the requirements about examination and suitability still apply. It is entirely unreal to talk about people flying in here and taking children out. What this Bill is concerned with is a foreigner who has a home here who wants to go to our Adoption Board and submit himself to all the formalities and inquiries inherent in making a formal application to our Adoption Board, who wants to adopt a child under our system and not that of any other country. People talking about taking a child out and denying it the rights of Irish citizenship are talking about an entirely different matter. That has nothing to do with this case.

The same applies to the question of notification of local authorities. It is difficult for me to remain unemotional about this. This provision we are proposing to amend was a mistake. It was put into the Children Act, 1957, inadvertently by people at that time who did not examine what they were doing. The very fact that it is in the Act in the form it is today, with the requirement that people must give these personal particulars to the local authority, is proof that when it was put in, the people responsible for it did not know what they were doing and did not realise what the implications were. Now they try to mend their hand and say: "We will leave it there but include notification of the personal details". But this attempt to undo the damage is not enough. They are overlooking the fact that where there is no question of reward, only an illegitimate child has to be notified to the local authority. An orphaned child or any legitimate child need not. Therefore, the very act of notifying the local authority brands the child as an illegitimate child.

Surely none of us wants that? Do we not all want that the child placed in the adoptive home should, as nearly as possible, be facilitated in becoming the same as an ordinary member of the family, as Senator McAuliffe said? That is what our Irish legal adoption system is all about. It is, in my view, a superior system to the system in many of the other countries mentioned. Some of these people briefing Senators about this matter tell us what is in the British Act, as if we did not know. We attend European seminars on this subject of adoption. We know what the system is in other countries. We compare notes. As a result of this, we are satisfied that our system is as good as, if not better than, any of these systems.

Our system, from the very beginning, is concentrated on the child. The child is the centre and pivot of our idea of legal adoption. Some of these other countries put much more emphasis on considerations relating to the adopting family, property rights and so on. But current opinion is now beginning to veer to the point of view that we have already accepted in this country.

In regard to the adoption of older children, I have quite frankly admitted and everybody who knows anything about the problem will admit that there very probably are isolated cases whose adoption would be desirable, although, as Deputy Dillon readily agreed in the Dáil, they are far fewer than many of the people who discuss this matter seem to believe or to suggest. Let us admit there are some. But, as I see it, what we are asked to do is to endanger the whole valuable structure of adoption as we have built it up here over ten years in order to cover a very few cases, which, as some Senator said, are hard cases but make very bad law.

What we want to encourage is infant adoption. Experience all over the world has shown that infant adoption is the only adoption which will, subject to suitable safeguards, be a real success. No matter what group presses me and no matter what attacks are made on me, I do not intend to have anything to do with proposals that would in any way lessen the pressure for infant adoption, and I say this apart from anything else that is to be said against these proposals. I feel I have no option but to take what might appear to be an implacable attitude on this matter.

I want to assure Senator Stanford that we are really at cross-purposes as regards the services of officers of local authorities. All I am proposing in this Bill is changing the aegis under which machinery operates. Legal adoption, as we know it, is not a matter that should come under a local authority, as such, in any way. The local authority are not an appropriate body to deal with it. The local authority have all sorts of specific statutory functions, which they carry out— many of them very well, some of them perhaps indifferently. We all know local authorities throughout the country. I admit, and readily agree with Senator Stanford, that most local authorities have excellent people in the persons of welfare officers or children's officers of one sort or another. I agree that it would be nonsensical for us arbitrarily to cut these people out of the whole system of adoption. There is no question of that, as I explained in my opening speech. We propose to continue to call on the assistance of these officers in so far as their work can be of any assistance to adoption: but they will be doing the work for the Adoption Board. All their service, knowledge and experience—about which everybody is so enthusiastic— will be available to the Adoption Board. All we are doing is cutting the local authority as such out of the matter. Instead of having two different systems of inspection of the family, we propose to have one—but one which has all the resources of the two available to it. That is the way to have it.

A question we might ask ourselves is this: what is adoption? Adoption takes place when some charitably-minded couple offer their home to an unwanted orphaned or illegitimate child. It is an act of charity. Admittedly, as we all know and as Senator McAuliffe rightly pointed out, the adopters too, gain immensely; but, basically, the initial act is an act of charity by people who take an unwanted child with a view to adopting it. Why should people of that sort be subjected to the additional inspection of a local authority? It is completely inappropriate and wrong. This Board was established by the Oireachtas. Senator Dooge is not right in suggesting that the Board was intended to be a judicial institution only or mainly. In the main Act, certainly the Board is clearly established with judicial or semi-judicial powers, but, at the same time, it has equally clear and definite functions of inspection and supervision. When charitably-minded people go through the process of taking a child into their home with a view to its adoption, it is this Board, established by the Oireachtas for this purpose, that should be the responsible authority and they should not be associated with the local authority. We should get away from this "poorhouse" association.

There were many other points raised to which I should like to reply but the House has other business tonight and I do not wish to delay it unduly. We can have a discussion on all these matters on the Committee Stage. However, Senator Stanford asked me to indicate how adoption begins, what happens before the Adoption Board comes officially on the scene. The work is done by adoption societies in these cases in which Senator Stanford is interested. These are reputable bodies of charitably-minded people who form themselves into societies and satisfy the Board that they are suitable persons to be registered. Senator Dooge's criticism of the 1952 Act in regard to the stipulations regarding societies seeking registration struck me as being a little academic, to say the least of it. Any reasonably-minded Senator reading the Act and seeing what is set out will readily admit the obligations on the Board are stringent enough and certainly adequate for practical purposes, and to raise these doubts is in fact to suggest that the Board is not doing its job. I have no doubt the Board does its job. I have no worries about that.

To return to Senator Stanford's query: what happens is that one of these properly registered societies establishes contact with a family seeking to adopt a child. They satisfy themselves that the family is suitable, and then they give to that family, or procure for that family, a suitable child. This is very delicate, human, personal work and I think this is the way it should be done, by charitably-minded people who devote themselves to work of this nature.

Then the child is placed with the family for adoption and subsequently an application is made to the Adoption Board. The Adoption Board satisfies itself that all is in order and may make either an interim order or a final order, as the case may be. The best guarantee that these adoption societies are doing their work well is that, as far as I am aware, and as I mentioned in my opening address, there has never been a case where the Board has had to turn down on suitability grounds an application for an adoption order out forward by an adoption society. There have been some that ran into legal and technical difficulties of one sort or another but the Board has never had to say to a society: "You did a bad job. This is not a suitable family," or "You have placed an unsuitable child with this family." That is the best proof that these societies are doing their work well.

I hope the Seanad will agree to give the Bill a Second Reading because, so far as I can gather, most Senators are in favour of the Bill, at least in principle.

Would the Minister clarify something he said in his speech? Who makes the regulations which control the adoption societies or have they carte blanche to do it their own way?

The control is set out in the main Act: the Board determines the standards up to which a society must come.

Not the methods?

No, not the methods. The provisions are set out in the main Act. The Board must satisfy itself that the society complies with these statutory requirements before it registers it. Once it is on the register, the society is free to operate in its own way.

They can use any methods they like, in other words?

Yes—any proper methods, that is.

That is reasonable enough.

Provided they are reputable people.

Would the Minister have information of the number of children sent abroad other than those who have been adopted and sent abroad with people who are now their parents? Is that available from any public source?

I certainly have no statistics of this sort. I am not sure whether any Government Department has. I shall inquire.

It might be something that it would be desirable to have reported to the Adoption Board, the number of children leaving the country under seven years of age.

The Board statutorily only has a function in relation to somebody applying to make an adoption order. If a child is being taken out of the country by its mother, or a relative or anybody like that, it has nothing to do with the Adoption Board.

Another point: would the Minister be prepared to clarify the phrase "cannot be found" in regard to the dispensation of consent?

It is a question of fact in each individual case. The Board would have to be satisfied as a matter of fact that adequate efforts had been made to find the mother and that they had not been successful.

The question of what is reasonable is in their discretion.

Yes; I think that is the best way to leave it.

Where a young mother is involved and where the situation is known to the mother's family, would it not be considered desirable to have the consent of the relatives in this case also?

The mother might be said to have "grace of office" there. The mother, after all, must have the main responsibility. I must say I did not realise that was a point the Senator was making when he was speaking. I did not advert to it as closely as I might have but it is something I shall think about.

It is something perhaps to be borne in mind.

What is the upper age limit for adoption for people living outside the country?

Nobody living outside this country can adopt in this country. A person must be resident here before he can adopt.

What about the adopted child being taken out of the country?

Nobody who lives outside this country can apply here under our law to adopt a child, Irish or otherwise.

I know a person and his wife from outside and they were anxious to adopt an Irish child. One is 52 and the other is 46. I should like to endorse what Senator McAuliffe said here. They were 11 years married and there was no family and they adopted a child. A child of their own came along afterwards and they are as fond of the child they adopted as they are of the other child.

That is good and is as it should be.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for next sitting day.
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