Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Feb 1964

Vol. 57 No. 7

Private Business. - Broadcasting Authority (Amendment) Bill, 1963 ( Certified Money Bill )— Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Posts and Telegraphs (Mr. Hilliard)

The purpose of this amending Bill is to provide additional funds for Radio Éireann's capital development.

It is estimated that the Authority, which was established on 1st June, 1960, will require £3 million in all up to the Spring of 1966 to pay for its capital needs. This measure, therefore, proposes to increase the limit of £2 million for repayable interest-bearing Exchequer advances in section 23 of the Broadcasting Authority Act, 1960 to £3 million.

Apart from a provision of £120,000 for sound, the full amount is required for television purposes.

The Television Commission had estimated that a sum of £1½ million would suffice for the establishment of a television service. That estimate was based on calculations made in 1958 and on the assumptions that there would be 5 main transmitting stations with connecting links and a programme centre and that initially the number of programme hours would be of the order of 30 a week of which 25 per cent would be "live" and the balance imported filmed or tape-recorded material. Another assumption was that the 405 line standard would be adopted. The extra £500,000 provided in the Principal Act was to allow for possible underestimation and to enable the Authority to make some improvements of a capital nature in sound broadcasting.

The actual cost of establishing the television service, including the 5 main transmitter stations, will be of the order of £2,350,000 made up as follows:

	£
Transmitters	1,060,000
Studios	790,000
Technical Equipment	440,000
Transport, Programme Equipment and Miscellaneous	60,000
TOTAL	£2,350,000

Rising costs since the original calculations were made contributed substantially to the increase over the Television Commission's estimate. In order to give the type of service expected by the Oireachtas, the Authority felt obliged to provide a larger television centre and much more equipment than the Commission envisaged for initial requirements; otherwise it would not have been possible to arrange that from the outset programme hours should be 42 per week instead of 30 and that home-produced programmes should account for a higher proportion of total output. The cost of developing mountain sites for the transmitting stations was substantially greater than anticipated. This was not surprising because of the very bad weather experienced while the work was in progress and because there had been no previous experience in this country of working at such high altitudes. The adoption of the 625 line standard with dual standard working on 405 and 625 lines from the Dublin and Sligo transmitters also added to the capital cost.

In considering the Authority's need for additional capital, I think it should be borne in mind that the television service is not being subsidised and that when the service was being established it was felt that it probably would not begin to pay its way until the third year of operation. In fact, it has been self-supporting practically from the start; during the 1962-63 period, its first full year of operation, television income at £1,113,000 fell short of expenditure by only £17,000. The £650,000 required for further developments is made up as follows:

	£
Additional building needs at Donnybrook	270,000
Additional technical equipment including standby television transmitters and protection equipment	110,000
Low power television transmitters for areas of poor reception	150,000
Improvement of sound broadcasting coverage	120,000
TOTAL	£650,000

The Authority is satisfied that it will be necessary to spend about £270,000 on providing additional storage, workshops, boiler-house extension, rehearsal facilities and office accommodation at Montrose. This will make it possible to transfer part of the staff at present housed in the GPO to Donnybrook together with the staff who are now occupying rented accommodation.

The provision of £110,000 for technical equipment will enable the Authority to develop outside broadcast operations, to obtain more programme material from the provinces and to provide essential stand-by equipment at Kippure and Mullaghanish.

Although television transmissions commenced from Kippure as early as 31st December, 1961, the main provincial transmitters did not commence operating at full power until various dates between 1st April, 1963, and 18th November, 1963. As soon as all the main transmitters were in full operation, consideration was given to the question of determining the areas of poor reception with a view to deciding where low power satellite transmitters should be provided. The necessary equipment to improve a pocket of poor reception from Kippure in the south Dublin region has been ordered and will involve separate transmitters for the 625 and 405 line standards. It is expected to be in service by August next and will also serve as a stand-by for the radio link between the studios and Kippure.

The northern part of Cork city is now being served by a 50 watt transposer and it has been established that another transposer will be necessary to serve the Cobh area. Three transposers will be required in County Donegal and one in County Monaghan. This forms Stage 1 of the Authority's satellite programme and should be completed by early 1965, if not by the end of this year. Stage 2 of that programme has not progressed far enough to enable definite plans to be made to cover other areas of poor reception. On present estimates Stages 1 and 2 may cost £150,000 in all.

Listeners in parts of the country which are furthest from Athlone have had to put up with unsatisfactory reception of the Radio Éireann sound programmes for many years. The position has been getting worse and is particularly bad after dark due to the increasing amount of mutual interference between stations on the same or adjacent wavelengths. Notwithstanding the change made in the "earth system" at Athlone some 18 months ago which improved the signal strength of Athlone, particularly on the east coast, the Authority is satisfied that something drastic will have to be done to give better sound broadcasting coverage. After full consideration of the possibilities it feels that the answer lies in the establishment of a VHF national broadcasting network. This would provide virtually nation-wide interference-free reception of a quality which could not be obtained otherwise. The television transmitter sites provide ideal VHF transmitter locations and for that reason the entire scheme could be completed in about one-and-a-half to two years from now. My Department's technical experts reported favourably on the Authority's scheme. I have, therefore, decided to accept the Authority's recommendation and £120,000 is being provided for the establishment of this service. The benefits of the VHF transmissions will, of course, be available only to listeners who have sets which include a VHF band.

The extra £1 million now being provided should meet the Authority's capital requirements up to the spring of 1966. A further increase in the amount that may be advanced will probably be necessary later because it is hoped that eventually the Donnybrook site will be developed to cater for the sound broadcasting studios which are at present situated in the GPO. Here I might mention that, long before the Authority was set up, my Department had acquired the Donnybrook site for a sound broadcasting headquarters and this made it possible for the Authority to proceed with the building of television studios much earlier than would otherwise have been the case.

This Bill which I recommend to the Seanad is concerned with capital outlay only. Further legislation will be necessary in about a year's time when the provisions of the Principal Act which deal with the Authority's revenue will be due for review.

Mr. L'Estrange

Now that television has become part of the equipment of a very large number of homes in Ireland there is no denying that the repercussions of the service are tremendous. Television can be a great power for good and, therefore, we want to see the best on Irish television, the best from our producers. The fact that there has been an increase, as the Minister has informed us, in the amount of home-produced programmes will be welcomed by all Deputies, Senators and the people of the country in general because we have had far too many American canned programmes with far too much of the gun in them. The gun should be taken out of Telefís Éireann just as it has been taken out of politics and it would be a good idea if we had fewer American gangster programmes and fewer American canned programmes.

We want the best on Telefís Éireann. We have some excellent playwrights and producers in Ireland and there is plenty of good in the Irish people. Our programmes should be prepared in an edifying manner and certainly should not be directed to degrading Telefís Éireann or the Irish people. Many people feel that a number of programmes, plays and shows on Telefís Éireann sometimes at least offend against good taste and decency. I very seldom get an opportunity of seeing Telefís Éireann myself, so I cannot comment very much on it, but I have been informed of that. I do know we have plenty of good in the Irish people but looking at certain programmes, plays and shows—some of them I have seen myself—one would think that the Irish people, especially the country people were drunkards, rogues and quarrelsome people prepared to fight or claw one another on the slightest provocation.

It is time we got away from all that. Some of the canned programmes incite people to crime and the sooner we get away from that also the better. Therefore, I welcome the Minister's announcement that we are to have more home-produced programmes in future. We have the material and we should make full use of it.

The purpose of this amending legislation is to increase the repayable advances from two million to three million pounds or fifty per cent. I think the question was asked in the Dáil, but I would ask the Minister to inform us whether the figures have been broken down between Radio Éireann and Telefís Éireann and the loss for each year Telefís Éireann has existed. I think the Minister mentioned £17,000 in one year but then he mentioned £115,000.

Mr. Hilliard

That was on sound broadcasting. The £17,000 was on Telefís Éireann.

Mr. L'Estrange

Many people are alarmed by the fact that the planners and the Department were so wide of the mark in their estimation of the cost of different State and semi-State projects and they were very wide of the mark in this case. Some people are inclined to ask if the general idea is to keep the true figures from Deputies, Senators and the public. In planning and estimating the cost they do not seem to be able to plan or think ahead. Our planners and experts should be able to plan at least for a short period like two-and-a-half years. It is less than two-and-a-half years since Telefís Éireann was started and yet the Minister has come before us to inform the House that his advisers and those who estimated the cost of the services were £1 million out: instead of £2 million, £3 million is now needed to continue this service.

The question many of us will be inclined to ask is: does the Minister now consider that £3 million will be sufficient? In the Dáil he mentioned the eighth round wage increase; after the ninth round, will the Minister be back next year or the year after? When does the Minister forecast that TE will be a paying proposition? We all know the licence fees have been raised, that they started two-and-a-half years ago at £4 and were then increased by 25 per cent to £5. There seems to be as much if not more, advertising on TE as on any other commercial station. Despite this, a million pounds extra revenue is needed.

We all know and understand that it is a very expensive business to set up a new TV service and that is what we had to do in this country. The nature of the service itself involves the provision and installation of modern, up-to-date, expensive equipment and I think it is only right to say that we have here some of the most modern and up-to-date equipment. I want to give full credit to all concerned in TE for a wonderful achievement and for what I believe is work reasonably well done over the last two-and-a-half years.

However, I still believe that the planners and the Minister's advisers should have been able to anticipate, to foresee and to forecast, the various difficulties at that time. The Minister, I think, is not so childlike in his innocence as to believe that the planners did not know that roads would have to be made up to Kippure, Truskmore, Mount Leinster, Maghera, and so on, and that power transmitters, aerials and other equipment would have to be brought up to those high remote mountain tops. The planners should have known all about those difficulties. Why was it necessary to wait until the work was completed to say they were all wrong and that they had underestimated? It would have been much more straightforward if the truth had been given at the start, and the £3 million voted, than to have to come back now to look for an extra £1 million.

If we look up column 183 of volume 52 of the Seanad Official Report of 21st January, 1960, we read what the Minister had to say. I do not blame the Minister for anything he stated on that day when some Senators said they thought it would cost much more and that they anticipated there would be losses, and so on. The Minister was taking the advice of his experts and his planners when he said:

I think my last supposition is right. On the estimates I have seen I cannot agree that the loss on television will be of the order indicated by the Senator. In fact, the official view is that the £1,500,000 being provided in the Bill for Television will be sufficient for capital purposes and to meet any initial losses. It is likely that the television service will be able to pay for itself within a few years,...

That is what the Minister told us here in this House on 21st January, 1960. I am not blaming him for that but I think it only right that we blame his advisers and his planners that the position is that instead of £2 million, it will cost an extra million pounds, now amounting in all to £3 million.

Many people claim there is a general tendency to endeavour to make reception from the BBC and UTV less effective. Some claim that deliberate action has been taken to make it less effective by certain people as they believe it to be their patriotic duty to interfere with the TV service from across the Border and from England. I hope that is not true. Many of us believe we should have outgrown all that. I hope the Minister will inform us that no deliberate action has been taken or is contemplated to interfere with reception from either UTV or BBC. I think it will be agreed that excellent and educational programmes can be enjoyed from abroad. I suppose also, that many of our people are delighted to have another station to switch to. As far as Irish culture is concerned, Irish songs, dances and music, I think it is generally appreciated that far better programmes come from UTV than from Telefís Éireann.

I welcome the step that has been taken recently to provide school programmes on Telefís Éireann. I believe this medium has great possibilities in our national and secondary schools and also in our universities. I read recently that in Chicago alone it is reckoned that more than 60,000 people are taking classes by television. There are great possibilities in that direction and I hope that some of the money will be spent on it.

We had a lengthy discussion here a few years ago about interference with the Telefís Éireann Authority. Many people appear to be genuinely annoyed that a certain programme was recently taken off television. It was a topical and controversial programme.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I cannot allow the Senator to discuss particular programmes.

Mr. L'Estrange

I did not discuss any particular programme. I said rumour had it that one particular programme, in any case, was taken off.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I do not know what that is if it is not a particular programme.

Mr. L'Estrange

I believe there should be no particular interference by this Government or any Government or any Party, especially the Government, with the Television Authority. They should be very grateful for the amount of insidious propaganda that is put across from time to time on Telefís Éireann.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

Did the Senator see General Seán MacEoin a few weeks ago? It was a solid hour of distortion of history, one solid hour of fabrications.

Mr. L'Estrange

You do not like the truth when you hear it.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The word "fabrications" in its original meaning might have something to do with capital outlay.

Mr. L'Estrange

The programme concerned was Broadsheet. Many people are annoyed because it was taken off Telefís Éireann.

Mr. Mooney

Some people are at present having difficulty in receiving Radio Éireann. I reside about 50 miles from Athlone. The Minister mentioned that an improvement was provided at Athlone about 18 months ago. It must be more than that period since interference has been affecting the area in which I reside. It has come to the stage that you do not have to turn off the radio at 11.30 p.m. after the Irish National Anthem because the programme continues from another country. I hope the Minister has made provision in any proposals he intends to put forward for an improvement in this respect.

A large number of people are still listening in to Radio Éireann. Telefís Éireann might very well take example from the sound broadcasting programmes. I have nothing but the highest praise for the programmes that emanate from Radio Éireann but I regret I have not the same to say with regard to the television programmes. The image they portray is not in accordance with the cultural traditions of our country. I stated that in a letter to the Authority which has not been acknowledged, unfortunately.

I feel there is a minority with the view that I hold, namely, that first things must come first. I have no apologies to make for that view. Being a national television service, the cultural life of this country should have priority and all other things should be secondary. I am afraid the minority within the station are not able to make their influence felt. When we see the credits on the various programmes, we do not have to wonder who the producers or directors are. The names are occasionally hard to pronounce.

While some people might not like Government interference at times, I regret that this service is so dependent on commercial advertisements and that there is no control by the Government. If there were some Government control, I feel the cultural life of the country would be better served. In the case of Irish programmes, my feeling is that they are still on an experimental basis, but in the case of the modern programmes, they are streamlined to the last word. I suggested in my letter to the Authority that if they put the same effort into the programmes of a cultural kind as they do into the pop showband show type of programme, they would be doing a great service to the country.

I am speaking as a parent when I object to some of the programmes which are aimed completely at the type of youngster to whom we seem to be appealing most today. They are known as teenagers. In my day they were called by a different name. They are the people who have no responsibility, who pay no licence fees. I object also to a compere being put in charge of a show who is already in the promotion business. If I want to advertise on television, it costs me a considerable sum of money, but some of the shows being promoted are being paid for. We have had people coming from various parts of the world being made much of while Irish people with talent are leaving. This is a matter which should receive the greatest attention from the Minister. I feel Telefís Éireann were responsible for some of the scenes enacted in the streets of Dublin on a recent occasion, In regard to some of the dumb blondes——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That is not a matter of capital outlay in the sense we are discussing.

Mr. L'Estrange

It could be capital outlay.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Not capital outlay for blondes.

Mr. O'Reilly

On a point of order, I should like the Chair to clarify for me whether or not it would be in order for me to discuss a programme or type of programme on this Bill, or must I confine my remarks to the development of mechanics?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Mechanics and general administration, but no particular programme.

Mr. O'Reilly

I would have been inclined to discuss certain programmes and criticise some of them.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That cannot be permitted.

Mr. O'Reilly

Since I had intended going along those lines, I thought it time somebody got the matter clarified. I would have been inclined to go along the line Senator Mooney has taken.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator is wise. I hope he is grateful to me.

Mr. Mooney

We do not get the same opportunity as the Dáil gets of discussing these matters on the Departmental Estimate.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator will get his opportunity on the Appropriation Bill.

Mr. Mooney

If I may, I should like to cite the case of an artist who was notified by the Authority that he had failed a camera test. Believe it or not, that artist had already concluded a series on television. When the Authority found out, of course they wrote him a letter apologising. These are the things I believe the Minister should investigate. I am very anxious about the cultural programmes and make no apology for my attitude. I feel an investigation should be carried out so that the cultural aspect will be given priority on television programmes.

Mr. Yeats

I should like very briefly to thank the Minister for his decision in regard to VHF services. This will bring about a revolution in regard to sound broadcasting. It is an improvement the Radio Éireann authorities should have adopted many years ago. Every country in Europe has had VHF for a number of years, so we are very probably at the end of the road in this respect. It is, as I say, a very important decision, and I congratulate the Minister on it.

Senator Mooney said he had some difficulty in receiving Radio Éireann programmes in his part of the country. I certainly find that, though I am only nine miles from Dublin, I cannot receive those programmes at all because I am out of range of the Dublin transmitter, and Athlone is a hopeless proposition altogether. There are two main advantages to be had from this new VHF service, the first of which is the reduction in interference.

One of the reasons why I suggest VHF should have been embarked upon years ago by Radio Éireann is that we are the only country who have not got a national wavelength. We have no wavelength that is solely ours. Athlone is shared with several European stations, and that is why we have this interference. All the other countries have one or more wavelengths, but we have not been able to get one, though we have tried at national conferences to get one for ourselves, limited solely to our own transmitter.

For that reason, VHF is essential since it will make it possible to get reception from Radio Éireann without interference from foreign stations. The second advantage to be gained from VHF is the enormous improvement in quality it will bring about. The difference between the best medium-wave reception and reception from VHF is as great as the difference between an old 78 breakable gramophone record and one of the new long-playing records. The old medium-wave transmitters are completely obsolete. Therefore, VHF will mean that our sound broadcasting will be far better, more worthwhile to listen to than ever before.

Up to now the position has been that people interested in music have not been listening to musical programmes from Radio Éireann. I do not think I know any members of the concert-going public in Dublin who listen to orchestral work from Radio Éireann. They listen to the BBC Symphony Orchestra through VHF. I certainly do not do it because the quality of the reception is so poor and the interference so great. This will change the whole position, and again I say the Minister deserves congratulation for it. At last, the poor relation which is sound broadcasting will perhaps come a little into its own.

I wonder if the Minister can give me some information about the question of studio accommodation. One of the main reasons for the poor quality of broadcasts is the lack of proper studio facilities. Present quarters such as those occupied in the GPO, the Phoenix Hall, and so forth, are entirely unsuitable, and now we are faced with the situation that the housing of these broadcasts in modem studios has been postponed indefinitely.

The Minister told us that the site which was bought in Donnybrook for sound studios was appropriated—that is not the word he used—for television purposes. We are told further that this £1 million which we are to give will last until 1966. There is to be no money for sound studios until 1966. I would urge that the Minister should think very seriously about this point and, the next time he approaches us for more money, as he inevitably will, in a year or two, that a reasonable amount should be set aside for sound studios.

The present sound studios were never intended as, or were not suitable as, sound studios. They are not suitable either as studios or for the artists working in them. When we have the VHF installed, these faults will become very obvious. Some of the offices and studios at present used for sound broadcasting will in many cases have to be rebuilt as the present studios will become completely obsolete and unsuitable. I hope very serious consideration will be given to the provision of sound studios for Radio Éireann as soon as possible.

I think we should commend the Minister for taking a very important step forward which will at least bring Radio Éireann sound broadcasting to a satisfactory level.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I shall be very brief. The Minister has given the House a reasonable explanation as to why the Broadcasting Authority require this extra £1 million. The additional money will provide for a better service. If the Chair will allow me, I should like to make a few points to the Minister with regard to the feeling of some people towards some of the services. I am aware that there is a feeling of dissatisfaction in the GAA and in many other organisations about the handling of programmes from the national point of view. I am sure that the Minister is aware of this, too. I think it is time the Television Authority became aware of it.

By and large, I feel Telefís Éireann have done a very good job. When Telefís Éireann first came on the air in December, 1961, I think we all realised that they were working under a very grave handicap in unfinished studios. The presenting of programmes from unfinished studios was a very difficult task and the people generally were aware of their difficulties and were pleased with the quality and the picture of the programmes generally. Quite a considerable amount of time has since elapsed and the studios are complete. Montrose is a palatial building.

I think it regrettable that the improvement in programmes did not keep pace with the improvement in the amenities at Montrose. The public generally, and more especially the professional critics—we have not such a thing in this country but there are people who have set themselves up as critics of television—are also expressing their dissatisfaction. I do not want to be over-critical but sometimes I feel that the television programmes can be very irritating. If the House will bear with me, I should like to cite one or two instances.

I can give one particular instance— possibly you will see a repeat of it next Friday night—in connection with the international boxing tournament in the Stadium, between the Irish amateur boxing team and the Welsh team. I am glad to have an opportunity of saying something about this programme planning, which appears to be amateurish. This particular programme went on the air at 9 o'clock and at ten o'clock there was a break so that we could have a few commercials. We had plenty of them between the rounds of that contest. At 10 o'clock after the commercials, there was a break for the news and more commercials. We then went back to the National Stadium and the programme finished at 10.30.

I think we could have a continuity of programme in a coverage of that kind. It is little things of that kind that really irritate people. Why was the news so important that an international boxing tournament, in which the whole country was vitally interested, should have to disappear into the background so that we could hear something about Saigon or something like that?

Mr. O'Reilly

The majority of the people would disagree with the Senator.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I am expressing an opinion I have heard expressed by many people. It would not happen on the BBC or on UTV. I feel that the Irish Amateur Boxing Association, who make arrangements for the televising of a programme of that kind, are entitled to some consideration and the viewers, who sit at their own fireside, should be able to see the boxing tournament completely through. It irritates people and I feel, as well as many others, that the news could have waited until 10.30. I could cite another instance of another international boxing tournament where, at the end of the second round in a very exciting fight, the programme ran out of time and the next programme came on. I am just citing these things in an effort to be constructively critical.

I do not want it said that our people are the worst in the world in doing a job but I feel that they could make a better job of a programme of that kind. I sincerely hope, as a result of the passing of this Bill, that we will get a better service in that respect and also in regard to the points mentioned by Senator Mooney, that the projecting of the Irish way of life, Irish culture and Irish nationality will get a bigger and better place in future programmes.

Éamon Ó Ciosáin

I think we are all interested in the promotion of Irish culture. We have to keep ourselves informed of what Telefís Éireann, or the Authority in charge of Telefís Éireann, will do towards that end. There has been much criticism of Telefís Éireann from the point of view of the promotion of our cultural heritage, but, at the same time, I think they have not done a bad job at all. They are doing very well. It is very difficult to satisfy all sections of the people in a matter of this kind. If I were to offer criticism, I would say that the Authority in charge of Telefís Éireann is not giving enough attention to Irish language programmes, to céilí music and to Irish culture generally. Of course, I may be narrowminded and a bit biassed but, at the same time, I think they should give more attention to our cultural life.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

I had intended making a rather lengthy contribution on this Bill because I regard it as a very important measure but, due to the lateness of the hour and the desire of the House to finish business tonight, I shall confine myself to one matter. I shall have an opportunity of dealing with the others on the Appropriation Bill later in the year.

This is a matter, referred to by Senator Fitzgerald, which I regard of some importance and I should like to address myself to it now. It is the question of the operation of a policy of apartheid in sport on Radio Éireann. It appears to me that the Radio Éireann authorities on sound broadcasting have decided that, in the case of one particular branch of football in this country, only the people in Cork city and in the Dublin district will be allowed to hear a comment on it. This in effect, is discrimination of the worst type. I thought the day had long passed when people's patriotism, nationality or service to the country would be judged by any State body by reason of the games they played, the films they saw or the concerts they attended. But we find that in Radio Éireann's sound broadcasting system the allocation of wavelengths is on a completely discriminatory basis. This, in my opinion, is most unfair and it is time it were stopped.

There are three wavelengths in operation—Dublin, Cork and Athlone. Athlone is the only really high-powered transmitter we have. In spite of the fact that there are blank places throughout the country, it gives a fairly wide national coverage. Dublin, as the House knows, has a rather poor transmitter which can be heard in and around Dublin. In Cork the transmitter is not worthy to be called one because the power is so moderate. But an Association which has over one thousand registered clubs, which has thousands of followers not alone in Dublin, Cork, Galway and Donegal, but in places like Kerry, Wexford, the Midlands, Tipperary, Waterford and Louth—all over the country in fact— which has a considerable body of public support in this country, and which is the ruling body for a game in which thousands of people are interested, is denied the right—and I think it should be a right if we are not to have apartheid in sport—to use the transmitter which will carry the relayed commentary on its big games to the major portions of this country.

There is no doubt that this has been going on for a long time and there is no need for me to give examples to prove it. Radio Éireann are quite well aware of the fact and, from my study of the thing, I am satisfied that it is a deliberate policy. The fact is that the one big sporting event in the year which this Association puts on for its patrons is its annual game for the cup, the Association Football Cup—the cup final. Never yet, to my knowledge, has Radio Éireann given the use of the Athlone wavelength facilities to a relay of a commentary on that game. Undoubtedly, they have given Cork and Dublin, which the majority of people cannot hear, but they have never yet, as far as I know, given the Athlone wavelength facility to broadcast the most important event in that Association's calendar for the year.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I think it generally clashes with the National League finals.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

There have been occasions when it did not clash. However, for Senator Fitzgerald's information, I follow these things. I like all games, all sport. There have been occasions such as last year, for instance, when one of the most important Association football matches ever staged in this country was staged at Dalymount Park, when the international champions—Scotland—gave us the pleasure of a visit to this country and when an Irish team, which aroused considerable interest all over the country, was put into the field against these Scottish champions and beat them. Is it possible that a broadcast of a match of that importance is denied to a section of the people of Ireland who, as I say, pay their licence fees and their taxes like anyone else? Is it credible that on that very day when there was no other sports fixture Radio Éireann relayed a first round tie in another cup and completely ignored the fact that this match was worth relaying?

Mr. Fitzgerald

That was a national game.

Tomás Ó Maoláin

There will be other games and that is why I raise this matter tonight. I have strong feelings on this and I say this discrimination should cease. I shall watch with particular interest what Radio Éireann will do in connection with them.

I do hope there will be a new departure on the occasion of the next big international match which will be a very important one from the Association's point of view, the match against a full international team representing England prior to that team's departure for the World Cup games in South America. When that match is played here in Dublin in May, I shall watch with great interest what Radio Éireann does with its wavelengths. I really think the Authority should investigate that situation and take remedial action without further delay. We shall have an opportunity of raising other matters later, but I felt it was important, since I know that a considerable section of the people are concerned, to raise the matter here myself.

Mr. Flanagan

I have listened to a lot of discussion by people who have very good reception and I should like to confine myself to saying a few words on behalf of those who have more or less a grievance. The main purpose of the Bill is to meet the case of people who have a grievance in that they have not proper reception and for that reason I am entirely in favour of the Bill and I congratulate the Minister on bringing it in.

As a person with some experience of carrying out major works, I should like to state that estimates cannot always be lived up to and that it is absolutely impossible in very many cases to anticipate the dangers and difficulties confronting people carrying out major works for the first time. I think the Authority has done extraordinarily well in having such a small discrepancy or deficiency in its accounts after carrying out the first major scheme. One would imagine from Senator L'Estrange that the million pounds we are asked for tonight was to make up somebody's mistake.

Mr. L'Estrange

The planners' mistake.

Mr. Flanagan

Only a small proportion is going to meet contingencies arising in respect of a very difficult new departure. The second amount goes to provide an improvement in sound broadcasting. If those people who have criticised the programmes lived in a district where interference is so great that it is practically impossible to get any reasonable results, I think they would change their tune a little. They would probably begin to see that the Minister's proposals are perfectly justified and come not one minute too soon.

The only point I want to make regarding television is that the Minister mentioned two phases in which works would be carried out to improve poor reception. I am very sorry that an area very close to my own, in west Mayo, the Westport area, is not in the development scheme as the Minister read it out. The people in that area get no value whatsoever and they are paying the same in taxation as the people here who are getting perfect reception and who are so very choosy about the programmes they like. I should like to see every part of the country getting at least reasonable, and, if possible, good, reception and I hope that every step will be taken as soon as possible to provide it.

Regarding programmes, I should like to see no parochial views at all and if there is any outstanding feature, any outstanding game, it should be broadcast for the benefit of those people who follow it. I hate to be narrow-minded in matters of that description. The country is small enough without dividing it up into small cliques and factions.

If I were to make a suggestion on programmes on Telefís Éireann, it would be that some of the better items in the programme — you will easily understand what I mean — should be brought into the period between eight and ten o'clock. If children are up late, they should have better viewing than the canned stuff and shooting that goes on between eight and ten o'clock. If older people in the house remain up to ten o'clock, at least they should be treated to the best part of the programme for very often old people do not stay up after ten.

The measure is entitled to the full support of this House. I would recommend to the Minister to try to pick out the various sections where reception is very bad and I throw out that suggestion about a redistribution of TE programmes to give us some better items between eight and ten o'clock.

Dónall Ó Conalláin

Ba mhaith liomsa i dtosach tréaslú leis an Údarás Radio, leis an mbainisteoir agus le gach duine eile go raibh baint acu leis a fheabhas a d'éirigh leo, ó thaobh teicneolaíochta de, córas telefíse a chur ar fáil don tír ar fad taobh istigh de bhliain nó dhó. Is ó thaobh na teicneolaíochta amháin atáim á thréaslú leo. Measaim féin gur cheart dúinn ar fad bheith mórtasach as go raibh innealltóirí dár gcuid féin sa tír in ann é sin a dhéanamh.

Sa Bhille atá ós ár gcomhair tá airgead á lorg leis an seirbhís a fheabhsú agus a fhairsingiú. Sul má tugtar airgead do scéim ar bith is dóigh go bhfuil dualgas orainn roint ceisteanna a chur orainn féin: an féidir an t-airgead a fháil ar aon dóigh eile seachas teacht go dtí an tOireachtas le tuilleadh airgid a fháil?

Le cois an airgid a tugtar don Údarás ón Státchiste tá dhá thobar eile de theacht isteach acu: fógraíocht agus táillí ceadúnais. Bhí fúm roint ceisteanna a chur ar an Aire fé chúrsaí a bhaineann le fógraíocht agus le táillí ach ó thárla an t-am a bheith chomh gearr sin ní bhacfaidh mé le cuid acu. An bhfuil measta ag an Roinn nó ag an Údarás cén méadú is féidir a chur sa bhliain atá ag teacht le táillí ó cheadúnais? Cén chaoi an bhfuil an margadh fé láthair? An bhfuil leath-mhargadh líonta fós nó trí ceathrú margadh nó cén chuid, nó cén chuid eile de theacht isteach is féidir bheith ag súil leis ón tobar sin?

Muna bhfuilmíd sásta gur féidir an t-airgead a fháil ó fhógraí nó ó tháillí caithfimíd ceist eile a chur orainn féin: an fiú linn an t-seirbhís an mhéid sin airgid sa bhreis a chaitheamh léi? Chun na ceiste sin a fhreagairt ní mór dúinn tarraingt ar an eolas atá againn ar an seirbhís féin agus ar na cláracha a cuireadh amach le cúpla bliain anuas.

Tuigim nach fuirist gach éinne a shásamh maidir leis na cláracha. Níl an caighdeán céanna ag gach éinne nó b'fhéidir ag gach beirt. Sé an rud is fearr is féidir le haon Údarás a dhéanamh i gcás den tsórt sin ná meánchaighdeán d'aimsiú agus meascán a chur ar fáil i dtreo is gur féidir le gach aon aicme ins an tír pléisiúr do bhaint as. Acht tá dualgas amháin ar an Údarás a bunaíodh i 1960 faoin Acht agus sé sin an tseirbhís teilifíse a fheidhmiú mar thaca leis an iarracht chun an teanga a neartú. Mar sin, sar a dtugamíd aon airgead dóibh caithfimid an tseirbhís a athscrúdú i gcomhthéacs an dualgais sin. Tuigim go bhfuil daoine ins an tír míréasúnta mar gheall ar cheist seo na Gaeilge. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil daoine ann agus nár bhfeárr leo aon rud ná nach mbeadh aon teanga ar an radio ná ar an teilifís ach an Ghaeilge. Tá gach aon cheart acu tuairim mar sin do bheith acu ach níor mhaith liom go gceapfaí gur duine mise den dream míréasúnta siúd. Tá a fhios agam go bhfuil cúramaí móra eile ar an Údarás agus nach bhfuil annseo ach ceann des na cúramaí sin, ach tuigtear dom freisin gur ceann é de na dualgaisí is tábhachtaí atá orthu. Creidim gur dualgas é nach bhfuil 'ghá chomhlíonadh go sásúil go nuige seo. Aontaím leis an Seanadóir Ó Maonaigh san méid a dúirt sé faoi gan tosaíocht cheart a bheith á thabhairt don tsaíocht Ghaelach i gcuid mhaith de na cláracha a taispeántar ar an teilifís. Níl mórán ama fágtha againn anocht agus, mar sin, níl am agam dul isteach go doimhin i gceist na teangan, ná aon léarmheas a dhéanamh ar cheist na saíochta atá chomh tábhachtach leis an teanga nó b'fhéidir níos tábhachtaí.

Ní féidir liom a rá go bhfuil mórán feabhais ag teacht ar na cláracha teilifíse ó thaobh na teangan de ón am ar thosaigh an tseirbhís. Tá feabhsú in áiteanna ach tá dul ar gcúl in áiteanna eile. Cuir i gcás, ní bhíonn aon chlár ina n-úsáidtear an Ghaeilge ag an uair is líonmhaire féachadóiri teilifíse. Tá roinnt di ar chlár na bpáistí acht tá contúirt mór annsin go dtaispeánfar, sa tslí sin, gur teanga í an Ghaeilge le haghaidh leanaí amháin, agus gur do dhaoine fásta agus b'fhéidir daoine tuiscineacha isea an Béarla. Mar sin, ba mhaith liom go ndéanfaí iarracht ar an Ghaeilge d'úsáid ar feadh tamaill ag gach uair den amchlár nuair a bhíos an teilifís ar siúl.

Ní cead dom dul go ró-mhion isteach i gcúrsaí na gcláracha ach tugaim fé deara go bhfuil comhartha ann le gairid go mb'fhéidir go mbeidh feabhas beag ar an scéal amach anseo. Tugaim fé deara go raibh fógra le gairid ag an Údarás as a dtuigfí go bhfuil sé ar intinn acu eagarthóir Gaeilge a cheapadh le haghaidh na gcláracha go léir sa tseirbhís. Do bhí gá mór leis sin ó thosach. Sin rud ba cheart a dhéanamh i dtosach bháire más rud é go raibh sé ar intinn acu a seasamh ceart a thabhairt don Ghaeilge sa tseirbhís teilifíse. Níl a fhios agam ar ceapadh éinne fós don phost sin ach bhí na fógraí ins na páipéirí. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh leo duine fónta d'fháil gan mhoill chun tabhairt fén obair seo.

Comhartha eile a fheicim agus is rud é go mba chóir a bheith déanta i bhfad ó shoin freisin agus sé sin go bhfuil an tÚdarás i gcomhar leis an Oireachtas chun duais a bhronnadh le haghaidh dráma i nGaeilge atá oiriúnach don teilifís. Tá suil agam go leanfar de rudaí mar sin agus nach le haghaidh drámaí amháin a bheidh na duaiseanna le fáil ach le haghaidh comórtais eile de bhunadh Gaelach. Tá súil agam go n-oifreálfar duaiseanna chun daoine a mhealladh chun píosaí ceoil agus amhránaíochta, agus mar sin, a chur ar an teilifís.

Tá gné eile d'obair na teilifíse go mba mhaith liom tagairt a dhéanamh dí agus sin í an teilifís scoile—an scéim nua chun teilifís a thaispeánt ins na meánscoileanna san ábhar Fisic. Molaim go hárd misneach na ndaoine a rinne an socrú sin. Ní mór dúinn freisin moladh a thabhairt dóibh as ucht an ábhar a thogh siad, Fisic. Is í an t-ábhar í is fusa a léiriú de na hábhair go léir ins na meánscoileanna. Tá súil agam nach mbéimíd i dtaobh leis an aon ábhar amháin ach go leathnófar an scéim amach anseo. Má tá moladh le tabhairt ar an taobh sin, tá cáineadh freisin, agus cáineadh géar, is eagal liom, le tabhairt mar gheall ar a slí in ar tionscnaíodh an scéim. Tugadh fógra a trí nó a ceathair de laetheanta roimh ré do na scoileanna, do na bainisteoirí agus do na múinteoirí, go raibh sé an clár sin do léiriú. Roghnaíodh an t-ábhar, roghnaíodh na cláracha roghnaíodh na teagascóirí, roghnaíodh na tráthanna ins an lá agus na laetheanta den tseachtain ar a dtabharfaí an cúrsa seo gan oiread is focal comhairle a ghlacadh le múinteoirí ná le bainisteoirí na scoileanna.

Tá idir mhúinteoirí agus bainisteoirí bréan tuirseach den íde seo cheana ó Roinn an Oideachais agus shílfeá go mba leor de rabhadh é don Údarás Telefíse an raic a tógadh tamall ó shin nuair a sáitheadh cúrsaí nua san Eolaíocht agus sa Mhatamaitic anuas ar na scoileanna gan dul i gcomhairle le muintir na scoileanna roimh ré. Níl mé á rá nach é an toradh céanna díreach a bheadh ann dá dtéití i gcomhairle le lucht na scoileanna. Is cinnte gurab é an t-ábhar céanna a thoghfaí agus na teagascóirí céanna chomh maith. Ach tig liom é seo a rá, go gcuireann an easpa comhairle seo múisiam ar dhaoine agus gur mó ar fad a bheadh bá na scoileanna leis an iarracht dá dtéití chun cainte leo mí nó dhó roimh ré.

Tá rud eile freisin ar mhaith liom a lua i dtaobh na gcláracha sin, sé sin, gur i mBéarla amháin a cuireadh ar fáil iad. Tá fhios agam go maith gur mionlach iad na daoine atá ag déanamh Fisic trí Ghaeilge sna scoileanna ach tá prionsabal mór i gceist. Is leatrom ar an mionlach sin nach bhfuil cláracha ar fáil dóibh. Tá buntáistí á thabhairt do lucht an Bhéarla, agus d'fhéadfadh sé go dtarlódh dá bharr go meallfaí daoine ó obair na hEolaíochta a mhúineadh trí Ghaeilge feasta.

Pádraig Ó Siochfhradha

Toisc chomh déanach is atá sé, níl orm mórán cainte a dhéanamh ar an mBille seo. Aontaíom leis an ní adúirt an Seanadóir Ó Conalláin i leith na seirbhíse féin agus an obair atá déanta ó thosnaigh an tréimhse triallach. Tá an tÚdarás le moladh. Moladh é agus is fiú é do mholadh. Tá ceist amháin agamsa ar thagair an Seanadóir dí— ceist úsáid na Gaeilge sa tseirbhís.

Tá an cheist sin in aigne a lán daoine, ach an dtuigeann Coiste Stiúrtha an Údaráis go bhfuil dualgas orthu an Ghaeilge do shábháil? Is deacair a chreidiuint go dtuigeann, nó go bhfuil beart de réir na tuisciona sin á dhéanamh acu. Ní tráth cainte anois é ar na cláracha agus nithe eile— beidh deis eile againn, le linn an Mheastacháin, chun an scéal ar fad a phlé.

Tuigtear go foirleathan nach dtuigeann lucht Telefís Éireann go bhfuil aon dualgas speisialta orthu i leith an Ghaeilge a aithbheochan. Is mithid deire a chur leis an dearcadh san, má tá sé ann. Tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil an tAire freagrach as na cláracha, agus a leithéid. Tá an tÚdarás féin freagrach as na nithe sin, ach is é an rud atá i gceist agamsa ná an mí-shásamh atá i measc lucht na Gaeltachta ar fad, nó i ngluaiseacht na Gaeilge, maidir leis an easba chinnteacht aigne agus gníomhachta a bhaineann leis an seirbhís.

Pé scéal é, ba mhaith linn, faoin am go dtiocfaidh an Meastachán ginearálta ós cómhair an tSeanaid, go mbeadh eolas cruinn againn i dtaobh an dearcadh atá ag an seirbhís i leith aithbheocan na Gaeilge agus, ar ndóigh, úsáid na Gaeilge. Ní raghaidh mé níos fuide leis an scéal san, ach sin iad na neithe atá ag déanamh tinnis dúinn. Tá an tinneas, an t-imní agus an mí-shásamh flúirseach go leor.

Ba mhaith liom an t-eolas sin d'fháil agus go dtabharfadh an Rialtas treoir don Údarás faoi na nithe sin. Is gléas é an teilefís atá chomh chumhachtach le gléas ar bith eile oideachais. Tá dualgas dá réir sin ar an seirbhís i leith cultúir agus saíochta na Gaeilge. Sin é an fáth atá leis an mí-shásamh atá orainn i leith na seirbhíse. Ba cheart don Rialtas bheith chomh h-imníoch i dtaobh na Gaeilge agus atá siad i dtaobh múineadh agus teagasc na teanga féin ins na scoileanna.

Ní ceart go gcuirfeadh gléas ar bith eile oideachais isteach ar an gcuspóir náisiúnta ach go n-oibreoidís as lámhaibh a chéile.

Mr. O'Reilly

Criticism of the Bill so far has been very mild. One criticism voiced was that the Minister under-estimated the capital investment necessary to develop our television system. I hope the Minister is not under-estimating in this case. One thing we can always do in our Parliament when an Estimate comes before us is to double it and then add 50 per cent. In that way we can be reasonably sure that we will be somewhere near the target. Of course, that would be a dangerous thing in relation to Government-sponsored authorities like Telefís Éireann particularly.

As far as the mechanics of the service are concerned, I am glad that something is being done now in regard to sound broadcasting. It is better late than never, but surely it was rather a long time before finally getting the VHF equipment. However, I welcome the decision to install it even at this late stage. Perhaps it was that we did not want such an improvement. This sort of thing is bound to cost a lot of money, and that probably was the reason. I welcome the decision at this stage.

There is one thing I have noticed in regard to the habits of people. People will not listen with great attention to a radio programme but they will give undivided attention to a television programme. The reason for this appears to me to be that two senses are appealed to here, the ear and the eye. That is why people do not talk, if they can avoid it, when watching a television programme. They also object to other people talking when they are watching television. When we have high frequency broadcasting in conjunction with television, the people who cannot listen will be made keep their peace while other people are listening to a good broadcast can listen to a high frequency broadcast. I think that is one of the advantages Telefís Éireann has over sound broadcasting. If people want to listen to a programme, others must get out.

With regard to the 625 line standard versus the 405 standard I remember, and I am sure the Minister also remembers, that I probably made a particular nuisance of myself in advocating broadcasting on the 625 line, when the original Bill, setting up the Radio Éireann Authority was going through. I still have views on this. Possibly the Minister may think I have a bee in my bonnet in this matter but I suppose one is entitled to have a bee in one's bonnet.

I notice recently that the Sligo transmitter is transmitting on both 625 and 405 definitions. I want to tell the Minister and members of this House that there are quite a number of people who might not be quite aware of that fact in the area, that they might normally be served by the 625 transmission. It appears to me that the Radio Éireann Authority should consider giving some direction to the public in regard to the type of set to buy, the range of a particular station; in other words, give technical data. If some direction is not given in this matter, the public will have no other direction at all except whatever information they may get from the traders. It does seem to me that the people in the trade, because this is a new medium, are often lacking in knowledge of these technical matters.

With regard to the 625 transmission from Sligo, I wonder if there are many sets in the area capable of receiving 625 transmission? I wonder if the people who are interested in the manufacture of television sets are developing the 625 line as far as possible or are they producing sets on which it is possible to receive either 625 or 405 transmissions. I think the Television Authority should give some direction to the public in regard to the type of set to buy or the proper aerial to use. I am aware that people in some cases seem to have quite a lot of difficulty in getting reception. They will not get optimum results from any particular station but poor results from all stations. That may not be general. It may be a view I have because of the few cases which I know of people trying to get something. It may be the result of the aerial, which might not be the right type of equipment for getting a particular programme. I suggest to the Minister that he should get the Television Authority to give a technical direction, not to the trade, but to the public, about this matter, through some medium of their own.

In regard to the question of programmes, it is rather late, and, if I were to go into that, I might delay the House. I can realise that this is a matter on which we cannot all agree but I shall make this comment. I have seen in a radio manufacturing advertisement that you can buy a particular make of set and that one man's meat is another man's poison. I have seen that in an advertisement. There is a lot of truth in that and I do not think we can, no matter what side of the House we are on, either here or in the Dáil, all agree with one particular programme. I am conscious of the fact that even in homes the programme that is acceptable to one set of people, or one age group, will not be acceptable to another. Possibly, as I said, with the introduction of VHF radio transmission, one set of people can look at the television and other people listen to the VHF broadcast.

I should like to raise a point regarding this question of programmes. Senator Ó Maoláin did raise one matter in regard to the attitude to particular sporting fixtures and Senator Fitzgerald made a complaint more or less on the same lines.

Mr. Fitzgerald

The Senator is getting his lines crossed. We were on different fields altogether.

Mr. O'Reilly

Yes, I know we are on different fields in dealing with sport. I am a supporter of the GAA. When I want to criticise them, I refer to them as the G-Ah-Ah, but othewise I refer to them with the blas.

An Cathaoirleach

Perhaps the Senator would refrain from criticising these organisations.

Mr. O'Reilly

All sporting groups seem to regard their particular sport, not so much as a sport, but as a religion, with a badly-written theology. This is a matter I want to refer to and it applies to Senator Ó Maoláin as well as anybody elses. I fully agree with the Senator when he said we will have to grow up in these matters. While we are all entitled, in a free country, to choose our sport and other things, we must be reasonably tolerant to others.

Mr. Hilliard

As the House is well aware, the Television Commission sat and reported to the Government of the day on the establishment and operation of a television service in this country. As the House is also fully aware, the Government finally decided to have this service established, maintained and operated by an Authority known as the Broadcasting Authority. The estimated capital cost of establishing this service, as set out by the Television Commission at the time, was based on certain costings submitted to the Television Commission which they felt were proper costings. On that basis they advised at the time that it would take £1½ million to establish a television service in this country.

Of course it is as well for us to realise that they had in mind the very minimum in buildings and installations and a much shorter schedule of programmes than the Authority subsequently decided was a worthwhile programme schedule, and a schedule which the Oireachtas expected the viewers to receive. The Broadcasting Authority, of course, was responsible for the actual building and the placing of the contracts for the building of the studios at Montrose on a site which was purchased long before that by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs, as I have said here in my opening statement, to accommodate the sound broadcasting studios which were very badly housed in the GPO and in other buildings in the city. Their estimate of the actual cost was based on the costs obtaining at the time. In so far as the provision of mountain roads at high altitudes was concerned in 1958, the costs were estimated by the Commission. When these roads were being built it was at a time when there was an entirely different wage structure in the country. The eighth round of wages had to be paid to the men who were working on the roads. This work was carried out in each area by the local authority and the local engineers belonging to the local authority were responsible for the laying and building of the roads.

In addition, these roads were built during the very disastrous weather that this country experienced last year, and much of the work executed by the local authorities' labour forces had to be re-done because of the deterioration in the work as a result of the shocking weather experienced here at that time. As well as that, some of the money asked for here is for work and equipment which was not at all taken into consideration by the Commission at the time. The additional technical equipment includes the standby television transmitters and electrical equipment which will cost £110,000. That equipment which the Television Authority have decided they require as a result of their experience in providing the country with a television service, is to enable the staff of the Authority to go further afield and to bring to the screen and to the public more programme material from the provinces.

The sum of £150,000 is required for low power television transmitters for areas of poor reception. It is only after the television service was in operation from the five main transmitters that they were in a position to know the areas that required the extra satellite stations to give full nationwide coverage to the country.

The planned improvement in sound broadcasting will cost £120,000. That decision, which has been referred to here by several Senators, will provide the broadcasting service with VHF transmitters. The VHF transmitters will be erected on the sites which were chosen originally for them by the Department of Posts and Telegraphs and they are the sites upon which the television masts are now erected. The Commission were not concerned with this capital expenditure of £120,000. When they were making their recommendation the Commission recommended the adoption of the 405 line standard. Subsequently, the decision was taken by the Government to broadcast 625 lines with dual broadcasts on 405 and 625 lines from the Dublin and Sligo transmitters because of the number of 405 sets already in use. All those sets would be useless for reception of the Irish broadcasting service unless we had dual broadcasting from these two main transmitters. That cost £150,000 extra. So the Commission were not really concerned; that did not come into their estimate of costs.

The provision of the building at Montrose was decided upon by the Authority after the Authority was established. They put up a building that was somewhat more elaborate and larger than that which was originally envisaged by the Broadcasting Commission. As I have said, from their own experience they also decided that the schedule of hours should be extended and that they should have more home-produced material than was envisaged by the Television Commission. They are operating the service on these lines since they first started to broadcast.

It is true, of course, that it is not very easy to estimate with any degree of accuracy in a matter of this kind, and that has been accepted by certain Senators and certain Dáil Deputies. This was not a simple operation. It was no simple undertaking. It was one, I think, of the first magnitude and I commend the Television Authority for the fine job of work they have done to date. They have provided the country with a television service technically the best that can be got. The equipment is the very best. Their broadcasting installations are the very best. The building at Montrose is the very best and I feel that we can confidently place this £1 million at their disposal to complete stage one of the additional operation to consolidate and extend the work they have already done.

I sympathise with Senator Yeats and another Senator who referred to the delay that has occurred in the establishment at the site in Donnybrook of proper housing for the studios for sound broadcasting. I feel that this work should be put in hand as soon as possible. It will be necessary to vote further capital moneys to the Authority to get that work done. This £1,000,000 does not provide for the studio buildings that will be necessary to house the sound broadcasting equipment and transmitters that are so badly housed at the moment in the Post Office.

It was never intended, I think, when the capital programme outlined by the Television Commission had been completed, that the work should just cease. The site is large. I believe that as time passes and the Authority develops this service as it should be developed, and as the Authority finds its feet and becomes a paying proposition, which it will in my opinion, we can look forward with confidence to the repayment of the capital advances that are made to this Authority by the Oireachtas.

Many matters have been raised by Senators in this debate. I hope I shall be able to deal with them all in the time at my disposal. Senator L'Estrange objected to imported programmes. I have already dealt with that on many occasions. My view is that we should have home-produced programmes as much as we possibly can in our broadcasting, both on sound and television. But one could not conceive of any Broadcasting Authority relying entirely on home-produced programmes: it cannot be done. Every Broadcasting Authority depends on what is known as filmed or canned programmes.

Mr. L'Estrange

All ours seem to be American.

Mr. Hilliard

The Authority has to do the best it can and get the best it can from what is available to it in the world market.

Mr. L'Estrange

There are other countries.

Mr. Hilliard

I agree with that. They are not confined to America or anything like it.

Mr. Fitzgerald

It is difficult to see what other countries we could get them from. We see them on the BBC.

Mr. Hilliard

Senator L'Estrange also mentioned interference with foreign programme reception and interference with reception from our friends in the northern part of the country. I dealt with this before on several occasions. The Authority, the Government and myself do not set out deliberately to cause any interference with broadcasting into this country from other stations. We have to operate our broadcasting service here according to the Stockholm Agreement. Our first obligation is to ensure that viewers get satisfactory reception of the home programmes and that our television stations will not cause interference in the service areas of other transmitting stations.

There is a good deal of interference with broadcasting both television and sound and it is not peculiar to this country. In England itself, there is interference with broadcasting reception by one station as against another. When the signals pass a certain number of miles from the transmitter they become weak and then interference is caused on the receiver by other signals from other stations. It obtains all over England in fringe areas.

In this country, we have interference with radio reception because we have not the exclusive use of any wavelength. There are other stations broadcasting on wavelengths which are very near to ours. There is very little that the Broadcasting Authority or anybody else can do with interference of that nature in sound except to set up the VHF method of transmission. Senator Yeats made it plain enough what we can expect from VHF. He may have been a little more enthusiastic about it than I would be. Nevertheless, it is the last thing in sound broadcasting and we can look forward to perfect reception of the orchestral programmes within the service areas of the VHF broadcasting transmitters.

In so far as interference with TV broadcasting is concerned, the House is aware that I have set up a committee of technical people to deal with it. They will report to me when they have gone into this question bit by bit. It takes a long time for the committee to come to decisions as to the proper way of dealing with electrical interference. They have made reports on two separate matters. As time passes, when the regulations are published and put into effect, the Broadcasting Authority will take whatever action is open to it within the law to deal with interference of that nature. When it comes to interference with broadcasting from other TV stations, it is a different matter. These are matters that are arranged and decided upon at international conferences. We carry out our obligations under international agreements and we expect that the other countries will carry out their obligations. Otherwise we should have chaos in broadcasting.

The question of the Authority's obligation under Section 17 of the original Act has been raised here by Senator Ó Conalláin and by Senator Ó Siochfhradha. When the 1960 Act was being dealt with in the Seanad and in the Dáil, I dealt as fully as I possibly could at the time with Section 17. I pointed out that the Broadcasing Authority was being put under a certain obligation in relation to the implementation of that section. We have to read Section 17 of the Broadcasting Authority Act in conjunction with Section 16 which sets out the functions of the Authority generally and with Section 24 which obliges the Authority to become self-supporting as soon as possible.

As far as sound broadcasting is concerned, there is quite a substantial amount of programme time devoted to programmes in Irish. About 10 per cent of the total programme time is devoted to Irish speech material.

If one were to have more regard to listenership value that has hitherto been the case it could be concluded that Radio Eireann are doing more than they might reasonably be expected to do in regard to programmes in the Irish language. Over the past three years, the Authority have been in communication with Cómhdháil Náisiúnta na Gaeilge and, to a lesser extent, with Connradh na Gaeilge in regard to television policy on Irish. The Director General, and the Authority generally, have given consideration to this question of discharging their obligations under Section 17 of the Act. It is not as simple a matter as one would consider it to be when one hears expressions of opinion that we should have more Irish language, more Irish speech, in our broadcasting programmes.

One must consider the other obligations the authority have to discharge. The authority consider that the interests of the Irish language must be carried out with tact and moderation. The authority do that and Senators will note the high proportion of Irish in children's television programmes. They are not doing that for the reasons Senator Ó Conalláin advanced but because children are more fluent in Irish than the elders and because the authority wish to inculcate into the child mind the value of the Irish language in television programmes. They want to familiarise the child with Irish speech through television as they will be looking at television programmes for the rest of their lives.

The authority feel that the best hope for the restoration of the language through television lies in presenting Irish attractively and realistically. I am satisfied that in the circumstances with which the Authority are confronted, they have been doing the best they possibly can for the Irish language. The time devoted to Irish is two hours in a weekly schedule of forty-two hours. It looks low, of course, and does not show up well the effort in this matter of propagating, to some degree at least, the Irish language.

Senator Ó Conalláin also made reference to the fact that the Authority recently invited applications for the important post of Irish Programme Editor. I understand this officer will be responsible for promoting a certain level of Irish usage, for the dovetailing of proposals for the greater use of Irish and to act as guide and adviser to programmes where Irish can be used. I am hoping for the best from this appointment. I know that the Authority will take note of the suggestions made here in this respect, that they will do the best they can to meet the national desire for greater use of Irish in their programme schedule.

Senator Ó Maoláin mentioned the question of sports broadcasts. The Authority consult the controlling bodies in the various sports and arrange programmes with them. It is true that in so far as the broadcasting of the FA Cup final is concerned, some misunderstanding arose at an interview between the people who control that sport and the Broadcasting Authority. It is not really my business to know what exactly happened: I am not responsible, as the House knows, for the day to day administration of the Authority. I am precluded, as a matter of fact, from entering into that field. I have, of course, some overriding responsibilities in relation to programmes generally, but in the arrangement of a particular programme I have no authority under the Act to interfere. It is a matter for the Authority to deal with sports organisations. They get the representatives of these organisations in and have discussions with them. I understand the Authority expect to have further consultations with the people who control that brand of football activity in this country.

I do not think there is much more I can usefully add to what I have said on the Bill. I have dealt as fully as I could with this question of unsatisfactory reception from Athlone and have pointed out that the only real solution is VHF, the arrangements for which will take between 1½ and two years to complete. It could not possibly be done in a shorter time.

Any other matters that have been mentioned by Senators will be brought to the attention of the Authority by me. I am sure they will consider all these suggestions and that they will take appropriate action in respect of any of them they consider worthwhile.

Mr. Mooney

Would the Minister suggest to the Authority that those who are dealing with the cultural aspect of broadcasting should be given a free hand in the matter of programme arrangement?

An Cathaoirleach

The discussion on the Second Reading is now closed.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration, and passed.

The Seanad adjourned at 11.30 p.m. until 3 p.m. on Wednesday, 4th March, 1964.