National University of Ireland Bill, 1969: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Minister for Education (Mr. Faulkner)

I move that the Bill be now read a Second Time.

An aidhm atá ag an Bhille seo ná cead do thabhairt don Rialtas tréimhse oifige ball Seanad Ollscoil na hÉireann d'fhaidiú ach iarratas chuige sin d'fháil ón Seanad.

Agus iarratas dá réir do bheith dá dhéanamh ag an Seanad i Mí Eanáir seo caite thuigeadar go raibh glactha i bprionsabal ag an Rialtas leis an moladh ón gCoimisiún Um Ard-Oideachas go gcuirfí deireadh le hOllscoil na hÉireann agus go ndéanfaí ollscoil neaspleách de gach ceann de na comhcholáistí. I láthair na huaire tá an tUdarás Ard-Oideachais ag breithniú an scéil ó thaobh moltaí do chur ar fáil mar gheall ar an gcóras ard-oideachais ba chóir do bheith sa tír i gcoitinne agus i mBaile Átha Cliath ach go háirithe. Tá dul chun cinn maith déanta ag an Udarás sa ghnó so. Ó tharla an scéal san amhlaidh ní fhéadfadh sé a bheith i gceist go mbéadh in aon ghiorracht do ghnáthshaol-ré ag Seanad nua. Ar an ábhar san mheas an Rialtas go mba chiallmhar an rud é géilleadh d'iarratas an tSeanaid. Is chuige sin atá an Bille seo á thabhairt os comhair an Tí.

This Bill merely seeks authority to enable the Government to accede to a request from the Senate of the National University of Ireland to extend the term of office of the present membership of the Senate. This request springs from a recognition of the fact that it has already been decided in priciple to dissolve the National University of Ireland and to have separate autonomous universities in Dublin, Cork and Galway, each with its own governing authority.

The Senate of the National University of Ireland is made up of 35 members some of whom are elected and others whose membership is ex-officio. The 35 members consist of:

The chancellor of the university, the presidents of the three colleges, four nominees of the Government (including one woman), six persons elected by the Governing Body of UCD of whom three are members of the academic council of the college, four persons elected by the Governing Body of UCC of whom two are members of the academic council of the college, four persons elected by the Governing Body of UCG of whom two are members of the academic council of the college, eight persons elected by convocation, four persons co-opted, and the registrar.

The current period of office of the members is due to expire on the 31st October next. The Senate, realising that elections could cater only for a comparatively short period of office on the part of those elected, requested in January last that the term of office of the present membership be extended. The Government decided to accede to this request and in so doing bore in mind that continuity in membership would be a help in resolving the problems involved in terminating existing structures and formulating new ones. The Government were also anxious that it should be seen that there was no question of putting the framing of new structures on the long finger. In fact, what is awaited now is recommendations in the matter of details from the Higher Education Authority. The framing of detailed recommendations involves on the part of the authority consultation with all the interested parties. These consultations are proceeding and I understand that a good deal of the ground has been covered.

Once again I wish to emphasise that this is a Bill which is simply designed to enable the Government to cater in a realistic fashion for an interim position which is likely to be of comparatively short duration.

Professor Quinlan

We can all welcome the Bill as presented by the Minister. It is a simple enabling Bill. Before doing so it would be opportune to welcome the Minister to his new office. We wish him a successful reign in this Ministry which is the most important Ministry in the Government, after the Minister of Finance. On my own behalf, and on behalf of the graduates of the National University whom I am proud to represent, I can offer him our sincere co-operation and help in his great task of continuing to modernise and develop our educational system. We will be happy to co-operate and to help at any time and in any place. The Minister has only to ask and we will not be found wanting.

To return to the Bill, I cannot understand the confusion created in the other House by former colleagues of ours here. This is a simple measure. It is an enabling measure. The Government have the power to make the order. The initiative must come from the Senate of the National University, but the Government have the power to make the order. That is their prerogative. In point of fact, the order must be laid before both Houses and it can be annulled according to the usual procedure if that is the wish of the Oireachtas. Deputy FitzGerald seemed to suggest that this was intended in some way to rescue the Senate of the National University from some illegal position into which they had got. Nothing could be further from the case.

I speak with full knowledge in this regard because I am happy to say I have been a member of the Senate of the National University for the past ten years. We took legal advice and we were advised that a Bill would be needed to extend to the National University the same provisions as are available to the colleges of the university, and asked the Government to extend by order the tenure in office for good and sufficient reasons. In this case the reasons are very clear. On 31st October, the Senate will have reached the end of its term of office, five years.

We all hope and expect that the following year will see the end of the discussions and the introduction of legislation to set up the future structure of the Irish university system. At this juncture it would not be a service to Irish education to open up an election campaign between the pro and anti mergers, in other words, to seek to polarise the graduate body at a time when what is needed is study and reflection on the various documents and works which have been executed and published on university affairs over the past couple of years.

There is the report of the Commission on Higher Education, a momentous document which stands as a credit to the commission which produced it. Reading it is a "must". There are the Government's proposals of 6th July last. Between the two I am confident that a solution will be found which will satisfy the general body of graduate opinion and which will be the most suitable solution of the problem. I am confident that the solution will not be in the rigid mould of 6th July.

I am quite happy to know that the Higher Education Authority, while taking the 6th July proposals as one of the possible solutions, are anxious to see alternative proposals, and I do know that at this very time the National University itself is taking the initiative in coming together with Trinity College and producing what we hope will be a worthwhile and feasible alternative to the 6th July proposals. It is obviously not right for any group to be forced into fixed attitudes when we have not got all the information, and when there is a question of planning and getting together and evolving, through co-operation, the system most suited to our future needs.

It is remarkable to read some speeches by those who have little contact with the working of the Senate of the National University. Of course, the less contact one has with a body the more one knows about it and the more one knows how wrong it is. That was my general reaction to the speeches in the other House. It indicates that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. All the sins of the Irish university system were visited on the latest scapegoat, that is, the Senate of the National University, without the trouble being taken to study what is the real function of a national university.

It should be remembered that the Senate has very limited powers in regard to the colleges. It is mainly concerned with appointments, on which, by and large down the years, it has done an excellent job and with the approval of courses of study and the conduct of the examinations for the National University. Those are all the functions it has. It has no financial or other powers whatsoever over the colleges. The basic weakness of the whole university system is simply lack of resources and lack of planning. Our nearest neighbour, Queen's University across the Border, have at least twice the resources that we have.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has already pointed out that the Senate of the National University has no financial powers.

Professor Quinlan

Yes.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Therefore, it would not be proper to continue to discuss financial matters.

Professor Quinlan

No, it has no financial powers but it has been accused of faults which are properly attributable to us here, with our successive Governments, and in a measure probably with the university authorities in not being able to get the necessary finances to modernise the system. Nobody in his sane senses would expect a factory to manufacture a product comparable to products being manufactured by competitor firms in other countries at half the cost of the product in other countries; indeed if we could find such a product we would be in the seventh heaven and would have attained the ultimate in economic expansion.

Within those limits our university system has done a great job, and I disagree completely with those who feel that the only task for the university should be to turn out revolutionaries. Surely even revolutionaries in planning their heaven on earth visualise using the full fruits of modern technology and therefore must have efficient professional backing for it. That is precisely what the National University has provided. We are proud and happy that it has provided all the professional requirements of our nation. When its members have gone abroad to work, they have given the same distinguished service there. When we look at the other end of the spectrum, we see that our honours graduates can compare, by and large, with honours graduates in leading universities in England, America and elsewhere. We are sending them out every year to those graduate schools there and they are always among the top group in the graduation classes. They have gone on to the highest honours, and competition for them is very difficult because these universities are trying to keep them while we are trying to attract them back.

Let us therefore be proud of the National University as we face the task of shaping a much more endowed and much more costly structure for the future. That structure can only prosper if it appreciates and is shaped out of its past. Our university structure is based on our past, on respect for our national and religious traditions, and I hope that any system that evolves in the future will be based on that solid foundation.

It is difficult for people outside the university to appreciate the type of work the staff do, the flexibility of hours and so on. Very often the staff members are working far into the night. It is this type of freedom which gives some the right to abuse it but gives the majority the right to do much more than they would under trade union regulations. It is that type of freedom which gets the maximum effort and has made universities what they are, which gives them the creativeness to inspire the community. I hope that our universities will continue to do that.

There is little else to say on this measure except to welcome it. This is an interim measure, for a year at most, and we do hope that the whole shape for the future will emerge before that year is out.

Seán Ó Brosnacháin

Is mian liomsa comh maith fáilte a chur roimh an Aire sa Teach seo. Tá súil agam go n-éireoidh go geal leis ins na cúrsaí atá idir lámha aige faoi láthair. Guidhim séan agus rath ar a chuid oibre i gcúrsai oideachais.

This is a simple, straightforward enabling Bill within the context of the reorganisation of our university system and I think it is totally acceptable to the House.

Minister for Education (Mr. Faulkner)

Ba mhaith liom i dtosach buíochas a ghabháil leis an Seanadóir Quinlan agus an Seanadóir Ó Brosnacháin as ucht comhgháirdeachas a dhéanamh liom gur cheapadh mé mar Aire Oideachais agus an dea-mhéin a theasbáin siad. Mar a dúirt siad, níl annseo ach Bille simplí le cead a thabhairt don Rialtas cead a thabhairt do Sheanad na hOilscoile a shaol a fhadú ar feadh bliana eile.

I should like to express my thanks to Senators Quinlan and Ó Brosnacháin for their congratulations on my appointment as Minister and also for the manner in which they have approached this Bill which, in my estimation and obviously in theirs, is a simple measure. It is a reasonable and practical request made by the Senate of the National University of Ireland to permit them to extend their life for a period of one year. Taking into consideration the proposed dissolution of the National University there seems to be little point in holding an election for the Senate with the present structure as it would only produce a somewhat similar pattern to the present Senate.

I may also say that, as I have already mentioned earlier, if we were to hold an election for the Senate now considering the fact that its life would be relatively brief it might give the impression that we were not really in earnest in our approach to providing improved higher educational facilities. Our aim is, as I said earlier, to provide the best possible framework of higher education that our resources permit. We are a small nation and we must take that very particularly into account and because of this examine this whole very complex matter very carefully and in depth, so far as possible leaving aside our own personal involvements and facing up to the difficulties objectively. We cannot afford either educationally or financially to duplicate the very costly services which are now needed.

Ní shílim gur fiú dom níos mó a rá mar gheall air seo ach amháin a rá leis an Seanad go bhfuil mé buíoch dóibh as ucht an dóigh lena glac siad an Bille.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.

Seanad Éireann debate - Thursday, 24 Jul 1969