It is proposed to take Nos. 1, 2 and 3.
Order of Business.
I wish to propose the following amendment to the Order of Business:
That "3" be deleted.
In view of events which have occurred within the last 48 hours this is not the time or the place in which we should be debating a Bill of this kind. We have enough repressive legislation in this country, north and south, and I do not think we are helping the Government or that the Government are helping themselves by proceeding with this Bill. Therefore, I propose as an amendment to the Order of Business that No. 3 be deleted.
I second the amendment that has been proposed. It seems to me opportune that the Government, having had the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill passed through the Dáil, should take a further opportunity to reflect fully on the implications of the Bill. It seems to me also that, in view of the matters which have been mentioned by Senator Jack Fitzgerald, it would be quite outrageous that we in this part of the country should be discussing one of the most controversial pieces of legislation for a long time. In view of the situation existing in the country as a whole, the Government would be serving the people well by at least postponing further consideration of this measure for some time.
I should like to suggest in this connection also — I intended to propose an amendment on these lines — that this particular Bill should not be taken for some time, first in order to enable the Government to reflect more fully on the implications of the Bill and secondly to enable Senators of all parties to consider initiating a petition to the President under Article 27 of the Constitution in the event of the Bill being passed in its present form. I do not know if it is necessary to put that in the form of an amendment because the simple amendment moved by Senator Jack Fitzgerald that this particular item be deleted from the Order of Business today probably covers the matter fully and enables Senators to discuss the reasons in reasonable depth as to why it should not be taken today.
The most important reason, possibly, is that which has been mentioned by Senator Fitzgerald — that in view of recent events in part of this country it would be quite ridiculous that one House of the Oireachtas should engage its time in discussing a Bill of this nature. In saying that, I do not want to analyse the Bill at this stage. I hope that the opportunity for analysing it will not occur today, but there are certain aspects of the Bill which have been the subject matter of very considerable controversy.
May I interrupt the Senator for a moment? The Chair is worried that the nature of this discussion is such that it would arise more properly on an amendment to the Second Reading rather than on a simple discussion on the Order of Business.
I shall not pursue that line any further. I would strongly urge on the House to accept this amendment. I know that, in order to have the amendment accepted, a Chathaoirleach, it is necessary for me to convince some of the Senators sitting opposite me as to why it would be inopportune to have this discussion at this particular time. It was because of the necessity to make my words receptive to the people on the benches opposite that I mentioned some of the particular aspects of the Bill. I merely want to put it on the broad basis that some aspects of the Bill, although not all, are extremely controversial and are regarded in many quarters as being obnoxious and objectionable. Other aspects of the Bill probably would find acceptance if the Bill could be discussed at a different time and in a different atmosphere.
The Senator will appreciate that the merits of the Bill do not arise on the Order of Business.
I shall not say any more on that. Having regard to those views, we should not discuss it today and we should alter the Order of Business proposed by the Leader of the House by deleting item No. 3.
Another reason which I feel I should add to those given by Senator O'Higgins is this: the course of the debate on this Bill in the Dáil suggests very strongly to me that we are going to have a discussion in this House which will not be good-tempered. In view of the events in the north——
(Interruptions.)
I should like to tell Senators on the far side of the House that a closed mind is nothing to be proud of. If the Minister for Justice displays in this House——
The Senator may not discuss proceedings in the other House.
May I add as briefly as I can, and if the other side will allow me in peace and silence, this very strong consideration to those advanced by Senator O'Higgins. If this country has to witness agonising television programmes and listen to agonising news broadcasts over the next three weeks it will provide a background for all our dealings which is going to make a debate in this House on a Bill like the Forcible Entry Bill something the like of which this House has never yet seen. I do not say that by way of a threat. I have no business to threaten anybody. It is not intended that way at all but everybody on the far side of the House knows that that is going to be so.
The tone of debate is up to yourselves.
If we are going to live this month watching the things that have been seen during the last couple of days, this is the last matter that a House of this Oireachtas should be asked to discuss. I warmly recommend to the Government, if their minds are open even a crack or a chink, that they put this Bill off until the next session.
I support this amendment. I do not intend to discuss in any way the terms of the Forcible Entry Bill — the views of my party are well known on it — but I would appeal to the Government party, the Fianna Fáil Party, the Soldiers of Destiny, to consider why they should bring it before us on the Order Paper today, in this critical — and I say "critical" very advisedly — stage in the history of our country. At the present moment there are people on the streets of our country being killed; there are people dying. Senator Crinion has a newspaper there that says: "12 dead today". There is an evening newspaper over there that says that the total may be 20. Why are they being killed? We are not entirely blameless. Indeed, we are not blameless at all in this part of the country for what is happening in this other part of our country. It is deplorable of the Government party to ask this House to discuss this type of legislation when, because of similar types of action in another part of the country, our fellow countrymen are being killed.
I should like to support this amendment to the Order of Business to delete the Forcible Entry Bill. It would be very sad and ironic if this House spent its time fiddling over the Forcible Entry Bill while the north burns.
(Interruptions.)
Interruptions must cease.
It was with this in mind that I had intended to move motion No. 19 on the Order Paper: "That Seanad Éireann notes the statement relating to Northern Ireland made by the Taoiseach on July 11th, during the commemoration of the Truce in 1921" so that this House could have a debate on the north. However, in view of your statement, a Chathaoirleach, that the question will come up again at 7.30, after the tea-break, as to whether an emergency debate on the north will take place, I will defer that; but if the Emergency debate does not take place then I shall certainly, at the next possible opportunity, move that this motion be taken, because it is crystal clear that this is not the time to debate the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill. The Bill has gone through a very stormy and unhappy debate in the Dáil——
I would repeat to Senator Robinson what I have already stated—that the proceedings in the other House should not arise for discussion here.
I shall conclude by saying that far from considering this an appropriate time, I should like to have the Bill removed from discussion and I should like to see this House turning its eyes a hundred miles north and discussing the northern situation. It is much more relevant and much more important at this time.
In supporting this amendment I should simply like to say one sentence. I am astonished that there is anyone in Ireland today who can laugh.
I wish to support very strongly Senator Fitzgerald's amendment. It should not be necessary to debate it. I appeal to the good sense of all the Government party to accede to this request. What we are asking simply is if we proceed to debate this over the next two to three weeks, will we aid the northern situation or will we do something that could be very detrimental to it? In such a situation the rush is far too great. This legislation is not urgent at present. What is happening elsewhere may make this urgency far less. I would appeal to the Government to let us have one big magnanimous gesture.
Let us have one from you.
Let us see that the Government party are concerned with the whole of the Twenty-six Counties and with the opinions within them; and then that they are concerned with Ireland as a whole. We are asking the Government to take the first step and by doing that they will show their sense of duty and their sense of realism. I would endorse what Senator Robinson has said, which is an appeal coming from most of our universities. We have traditionally been independent; we have been critical in our contributions to this and to other debates and now I join with Senator Robinson, especially from the university sectors for which we have the privilege to speak, in asking the Government to show restraint and realism and not to do any act in this House that will in any way make things worse in the north.
Show realism by passing this Bill.
I appeal to you, gentlemen——
The Senator should address the Chair.
I just want to make one very short point in order to remove any misunderstanding that may have arisen. The Fine Gael Party indicated in the other House their acceptance in principle of this Bill. They strenuously opposed certain sections of it. We would adopt the same attitude in this House and we would hope that the Minister for Justice would show a sense of co-operation and realism in considering reasonable amendments to the Bill. We feel, however, as has been expressed here very forcibly, that this is not the time to debate a measure of this kind. Our position is purely directed along those lines.
Senators Brennan and Ó Maoláin rose.
The Leader of the House, if he speaks, will be concluding the debate. There are other speakers to come.
I am appalled at the way in which this debate has been allowed to proceed.
On a point of order, is it in order for Senator Ó Maoláin to say he is appalled by the Chair's behaviour?
I understand that the Leader of the House is raising a point of order?
I have a point of order.
We cannot have two points of order at once. Has Senator Ó Maoláin a point of order?
Is this an hourlong debate? I am asking a question.
No. The Chair has been endeavouring——
All the other speakers have followed the same line.
The Chair has been endeavouring to restrict this debate to one proper to the Order of Business.
Is it in order for Senator Ó Maoláin to tell you, Sir, that he is appalled at the way this debate has been conducted? Could I have your ruling, Sir, as to whether the remarks of Senator Ó Maoláin are a reflection on the Chair? Would I have been allowed to get away with that remark?
(Interruptions.)
I have called on Senator Brennan.
(Interruptions.)
You will not frighten me. I have a point of order and the Chair has not yet dealt with it.
Will Senator Kelly please sit down while I answer his point of order? No reflection on the Chair from either side of the House is in order. This discussion has been proceeding on lines which have worried the Chair. The Chair has endeavoured on several occasions to tell Senators that they should not indulge in a Second Reading debate on the Order of Business. I am now calling upon Senator Brennan to speak to the Order of Business.
Mr. Brennan
I understood the Leader of the House to announce the Order of Business as items Nos. 1, 2 and 3. Hot on the heels of that of course, as we might have expected, came Senator FitzGerald, Senator O'Higgins, Senator Mary Robinson, Senator Quinlan and Senator Russell. Senator O'Higgins said a few words very early in order to confuse to some extent the work of this House today. It is well known to every Member of this House as well as to Members of the Lower House that the attitude of these people is to prevent discussion of item No. 3 on the Order of Business. They tried to introduce a national question and a very serious one — so serious that it involves each and every individual citizen of not only the Twenty-six Counties but of the Thirty-two Counties of Ireland. These brazen-faced rubbernecks came in here today——
Will Senator Brennan give way to the Chair for a moment? The Senator must withdraw that reference to Senators.
Mr. Brennan
Which one shall I withdraw—rubbernecks or brazen-faced?
Reflections of this kind on other Senators are quite disorderly and should not be made.
Mr. Brennan
I will withdraw it. The business of this House is to be confused by these people over there who have opposed consistently. That is what they are at. Senator Quinlan went out of his way to ask us to withdraw completely item No. 3 on the Order of Business so that they may come back with renewed vigour at a later stage and keep this House here until Christmas Eve. Is that what is in Senator Quinlan's head?
No, Sir.
(Interruptions.)
I should like to know exactly what the people in Northern Ireland would think of this House — which is the only one of the two Houses of the Oireachtas in session—if we are to indulge ourselves in the luxury of discussing something which is a controversial matter while they are fighting for their very existence. I should like to know what their thoughts of us as a House of Parliament and as a people will be if we indulge in this luxury of discussing a highly-controversial matter while they are fighting for their rights and for their very existence. With all due respect to the more rational and more tolerant people on the opposite side of the House, the efforts being made to shout us down are exactly the same type of efforts that were made during the last 15 to 20 years by the Unionist majority in Stormont——
Senators
Hear, hear.
——with the results that we have seen today.
It is a very sad thing for me — as an Ulsterman who was reared half a mile from the Border — to come in here today and witness the hypocrisy that we have witnessed on the opposite benches. Those people would have us believe that we should cease doing the work which we have come in here today to do in order to blackmail us into withdrawing No. 3 on the Order of Business. Is it the contention of the people on the opposite side that it will help the people in Northern Ireland if the work of every institution in this city and in this State should cease? We came in here today to do this work and we are going to do it. We are not going to be affected by this filthy blackmail that is going on, that Fianna Fáil because they will not withdraw——
Are these expressions in order?
Will Senator McElgunn allow me for a moment? The Chair considers that the majority of the expressions used by Senator McElgunn are political expressions but the words "filthy blackmail" should not be used in reference to Senators. I would ask the Senator to withdraw the expression.
Senators
Withdraw.
I will withdraw the words "filthy blackmail". In the inadequacy of my vocabulary I cannot find words to cover the tactics that have been going on, not only in this House but in other places as well, in trying to pretend that if Fianna Fáil do not knuckle under to certain things the Opposition and other people want, we are going to be blackmailed or frightened by being compared with the Unionist Party. We know what the Unionist Party are and we know what Fianna Fáil are and we will not bow our heads or accept this at all. It is entirely wrong and I do not think it helps the situation to compare any of the political parties here, or any of their actions during the last 50 years, to what has gone on in Northern Ireland for the past 50 years. If the people opposite really knew what they were talking about they would not use these tactics.
I rise to support this amendment moved by Senator Fitzgerald. It is a matter about which this party feel very strongly. I assure this House that we are not being hypocrites and that we are doing this from the very best motives we can muster. Fear is a very real emotion in this country today. We want to prevent this House, if we can, from debating a matter which we believe would instil further fear into the people on this side of the Border. Surely the dearest wish of every Senator is that our people, men, women and children, in each county of the Thirty-two Counties should live in freedom from fear. Whether the Government party believe it or not there are people in the Twenty-six Counties who have very real fears about the measure, No. 3 on the Order Paper——
The Senator is discussing the merits of the Bill, which do not arise on the Order of Business.
I am merely making the case why we have moved this amendment. We want to delete this measure from the Order Paper today. We want to delete anything that will instil fear into any of our people, either north of south of the Border. We believe that this matter should not be discussed today. I would appeal to the Government party to realise that what we are doing is in the very best interests of all our people. I would ask them to ponder and, if possible, accept the amendment moved by Senator Fitzgerald.
On a point of order, is Senator McElgunn correct in alleging that it was unfair and bad tactics of the Opposition to try to amend the Order of Business?
That is not a point of order.
I must protest strongly at the disgraceful tactics used by the Fine Gael and Labour Parties and some of the Independents here today.
On a point of order are we not entitled to amend the Order of Business?
That is not a point of order.
I must protest in the name of decency against the hypocrisy which has tried to link the sufferings of the people of the six north-eastern counties with a political objective which people on the opposite side have in view.
No one did that.
Having failed by all the means they tried in the Dáil, to obstruct the passage of the Forcible Entry Bill——
The shame is on your head.
The Senator may not discuss proceedings in the other House.
I am talking about the Order of Business.
The Senator should not wag his finger at the Chair.
(Interruptions.)
The Chair has stated several times already, and may well have to state several times in the future days, that proceedings in the other House do not arise for discussion here. They may not be discussed in this House.
(Interruptions.)
Senator Ó Maoláin to continue.
Every effort was made by those people to obstruct the passage of this Bill. Having failed by every means in their power, internally and externally, to do so, they now come to the Seanad today to attempt to stop us doing the business which brought us here.
Senators
Hear, hear.
The utter hypocrisy of the party over there—the party which should not open its mouth about what is happening and about Partition; the party which made it possible for Partition——
(Interruptions.)
These matters do not arise on the Order of Business. I would ask the Leader of the House to——
(Interruptions.)
The hypocrisy of that party in trying to score political kudos out of the sufferings of the people of the north is so nauseating that I think it is a lasting disgrace.
Fine Gael propose that the question be now put.
(Interruptions.)
The Leader of the House must address himself to the Order of Business. The matters he is raising have nothing to do with the Order of Business. They are quite irrelevant and disorderly. The matter that we are discussing is an amendment to delete No. 3 from the Order of Business and only that matter may be discussed.
On a point of order on the Order of Business, I move, Sir, that the question be now put. I believe I am in order in doing that. I believe it would be for the benefit of the good name of this House that the question be put without further discussion of this sort.
I want to conclude——
If the Senator will allow me to reply to the motion moved by Senator O'Higgins. In view of the fact that the discussion is at present being concluded by the Leader of the House the Chair does not feel it would be correct to accept that motion. Senator Ó Maoláin to continue on the Order of Business.
In response to the references made to the desirability of postponing or withdrawing No. 3 on the Order Paper, which is the Prohibition of Forcible Entry and Occupation Bill, the business which brought us here today is to discuss this Bill on its Second Stage, to pass its Second Stage, to proceed therefrom to the remaining Stages of the Bill and to pass that Bill. That is why we are here. That is why the Seanad is meeting in August and that is what we propose to do.
Today?
Who is laughing now?
Question put: "That the figure proposed to be deleted stand."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 29; Níl, 20.
Tá
- Brennan, John J.
- Brugha, Ruairí.
- Cranitch, Mícheal C.
- Crinion, Brendan.
- Doyle, John.
- Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
- Farrell, Joseph.
- Farrell, Peggy.
- Fitzsimons, Patrick.
- Flanagan, Thomas P.
- Gallanagh, Michael.
- Garrett, Jack.
- Hanafin, Desmond.
- Honan, Dermot P.
- Keegan, Seán.
- Keery, Neville.
- Killilea, Mark.
- McElgunn, Farrell.
- McGlinchey, Bernard.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- Nash, John J.
- Norton, Patrick.
- O'Callaghan, Cornelius K.
- Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
- O'Sullivan, Terry.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, Patrick W.
- Ryan, William.
- Walsh, Seán.
Níl
- Belton, Richard.
- Boland, John.
- Butler, Pierce.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Farrelly, Denis.
- FitzGerald, Alexis.
- Fitzgerald, Jack.
- Kelly, John.
- McDonald, Charles B.
- Mannion, John M.
- O'Brien, Andy.
- O'Brien, William.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- Owens, Evelyn P.
- Prendergast, Micheál A.
- Quinlan, Patrick M.
- Reynolds, Patrick J.
- Robinson, Mary T.W.
- Russell, G.E.
- West, Timothy Trevor.
Tellers: Tá, Senators J. Farrell and Brennan; Níl, Senators J. Fitzgerald and W. O'Brien.
Question declared carried.
Amendment declared lost.
The Order of Business: Nos. 1, 2 and 3.
As far as I am concerned, I do not accept the Order of Business and I propose voting against it.
In reply to Senator O'Higgins, the position is that the division was held on the proposition "That the figure which was proposed to be deleted stand." In view of the result of that division, therefore, item No. 3 stands as part of the Order of Business and there may be no further division.
The Order of Business suggested is: Nos. 1, 2 and 3. I am simply informing the Cathaoirleach that, as far as I am concerned, I do not accept that that should be the Order of Business for the day. Our agreement is being asked to this Order of Business.
In support of Senator O'Higgins, what has been done——
There can be no further discussion on this matter. Senator O'Higgins has stated that he wishes to oppose the Order of Business. I am putting the Order of Business.
Question put.
Senators: Tá.
Senators: Níl.
If Senator Belton wishes to propose a further amendment to the Order of Business——
This is not the point I was rising on. I was rising——
There can be no further discussion about the Order of Business. The Leader of the House has replied to the discussion and no further speeches or discussion can be allowed. Does Senator Belton wish to propose an amendment?
Yes, I do. I understood from the Cathaoirleach that the Leader of the House was replying to an amendment put to the Order of Business, and not to the Order of Business.
The Chair has already put the question on this proposal and Senators have made an oral vote. The Chair is declaring that the Order of Business has been carried.
I wish to propose an amendment to that.
The Senator is too late to propose an amendment. The motion has been put. I called for Senators to vote on this matter and I am declaring that the vote that the Order of Business be Nos. 1, 2 and 3 has been carried.
With respect, Sir——
(Interruptions.)
On a point of order, the Chair put the question and I said "Níl." At that stage Senator Belton raised a point of order which the Chair dealt with. Surely after the Chair has put the question, the next step is to decide whether it is carried to enable the House to divide.
The Chair stated that the Order of Business was carried. On the oral vote it seemed to the Chair that the Order of Business was carried.
Vótáil.
On a point of order, surely if——
A division has been called and there can be no points of order while a division is in progress.
Question proposed: "That the Order of Business be Nos. 1, 2 and 3."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 30; Níl, 19.
Tá
- Brennan, John J.
- Brugha, Ruairí.
- Cranitch, Mícheál C.
- Crinnion, Brendan.
- Doyle, John.
- Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
- Farrell, Joseph.
- Farrell, Peggy.
- Fitzsimons, Patrick.
- Flanagan, Thomas P.
- Gallanagh, Michael.
- Garrett, Jack.
- Hanafin, Desmond.
- Honan, Dermot P.
- Keegan, Seán
- Keery, Neville.
- Killilea, Mark.
- McElgunn, Farrell.
- McGlinchey, Bernard.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- Nash, John J.
- Norton, Patrick.
- O'Callaghan, Cornelius K.
- Ó Maoláin, Tomás.
- O'Sullivan, Terry.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, Patrick W.
- Ryan, William.
- Sheldon, W.A.W.
- Walsh, Seán.
Níl
- Belton, Richard.
- Boland, John.
- Butler, Pierce.
- Desmond, Eileen.
- Farrelly, Denis.
- FitzGerald, Alexis.
- Fitzgerald, Jack.
- Kelly, John.
- McDonald, Charles B.
- Mannion, John M.
- O'Brien, Andy.
- O'Brien, William.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- Owens, Evelyn P.
- Prendergast, Micheál A.
- Quinlan, Patrick M.
- Reynolds, Patrick J.
- Robinson, Mary T.W.
- Russell, G.E.
Tellers: Tá, Senators J. Farrell and Brennan; Níl, Senators W. O'Brien and P.J. Reynolds.
Question declared carried.