It is proposed to take No. 1.
Order of Business.
I am afraid we on this side of the House cannot agree to the Order of Business as suggested by the Leader of the House. We had specifically set aside today for a motion in my name and the name of Senator W. Ryan, dealing with the deplorable situation in regard to post-primary education in Ireland due to the lack of allocation of funds. It is a matter of very great pertinent interest as far as parents are concerned. I received an assurance from the Leader of the House, given both privately and publicly in the House, that the motion would be taken today.
I would be glad if the Senator would read it out. I referred to it last night and I will do so again. I made it quite clear that it was subject to the exigencies of Government legislation.
The Leader of the House may have the qualification. If the Leader of the House is talking about the exigencies of Government legislation he is talking in the context, if one was to conduct a plebiscite among the parents of the country, of what 99 per cent regard as the fundamental matter of post-primary legislation being a greater exigency, to put it mildly. The legislation that we have been talking about for some days is totally irrelevant and unworkable.
What we had set aside for today's Business is a very serious matter of immediate concern not alone to parents but to school authorities in the post-primary area. I am anxious to be reasonable, so if the Leader of the House would accept an amendment, I would suggest a way out of this unfortunate impasse which should not happen if Business was properly ordered by the Government. I would suggest that we add to the suggestion in regard to the Order of Business, to take motion No. 29 at 2.30 p.m. today. We can continue with the urgent Government business—I do not agree with that—which is completely irrelevant and unworkable. We can deal with that now and take motion No. 29, in my name and the name of Senator W. Ryan—that Seanad Éireann notes the impending collapse of post-primary education, the total inadequacy of capitation and free grants. We can take that at 2.30 until 5 o'clock.
I object to the Order of Business on the ground that we are talking about a Bill which, whether it is passed, dropped or defeated, will contribute nothing to the North or South of this country. On this side of the House where we feel that we are making no contribution, we are deprived of our democratic rights as Members of the House. We have motions on the agenda which have been here for almost 12 months. Motion No. 20 is in my name, that the House discuss the plight of those engaged in agriculture. That has been No. 20 for 12 months. I do not think it is unreasonable to ask, as I have done on numerous occasions, when we might have an opportunity to discuss that motion, especially when the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries did not raise any serious objection to beef being imported into the EEC countries from outside. That will be a serious blow to our agricultural community.
The Senator is now anticipating the taking of a motion on agriculture.
It is very difficult for me to give the importance of the motion that I would hope will be considered here without referring to what is in the motion. It is most unreasonable. I am not going to make any filibuster of a speech about the Bill now being discussed. In the wildest stretch of imagination I do not know why we are discussing this Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill. It will do nothing for anybody. This House has been held up when there is a lot of important business that could be discussed. At least the farming community are entitled to know whether there is anybody representing them in the Seanad or in the Dáil. I feel that I have an obligation to say this as I am on the Agricultural Panel, and if I did not make an objection I should not be here. It was utterly unfair for the Leader of the House not to have given an opportunity in 12 months to discuss a motion I consider to be very important—the plight of those engaged in agriculture. I do not know what action I will have to take if the discussion of this motion is declined.
I support the compromise suggested by Senator Lenihan. Undoubtedly, the most important issue facing us is that contained in Motion No. 29, where we hope to prove conclusively that the foulest system of discrimination against our secondary schools is being practised. It began surreptitiously in 1960. It is now there——
The Senator should confine himself to whether the motion should be taken today.
I should like to establish that the motion is highly relevant. It is most important for the Seanad to face this challenge because foul discrimination is being practised against our secondary schools. I appeal to the Leader of the House to give us what was promised, time to discuss this motion. The compromise suggested is a fair one, though I would prefer if we took the six hours and get on with the other one after that.
Before I say any more, in order to avoid unnecessary waste of time on this discussion of the Order of Business, is there any possibility that the Leader of the House will accept this amendment which is a compromise that would be fair to both sides? I do not want to go any further in this matter if there is any possibility of it being accepted. It does not seem so. I shall discuss this matter, then.
The problem is one that a number of us, including myself, raised as a possibility when this Bill was brought into the Seanad. The problem was that the Government, by their inability to deal with the real matters of importance, had reduced the whole business of the other House to a shambles. They were put in the position that between now and the summer recess there will be no legislation of any substance other than the incredible series of capital taxation Bills of a useless and dangerous nature. No other business can apparently be discussed in the other House. So, having reduced the proceeding of the Dáil to a shambles they propose to do the same in the Seanad. So we now have the same situation here that this extremely important matter of the state of Irish post-primary education cannot be discussed because of the introduction and the railroading of this unworkable, unconstitutional, entirely foolish and useless Bill. It is a ridiculous Bill that nobody except the Minister and Unionists appear to want.
The Chair will ration Senators to one sentence on the merits of the Bill or a motion.
One is all I need.
You have had two already.
I will not add a third, I promise the Chair. We are in a position that owing to the action of the Government and the Leader of the House, we are unable to discuss the matters that are of real importance to the country. There is no doubt at all that there is a great deal of disquiet, to put it mildly, not merely among the public at large but in particular among the teachers and those who run the schools. It is an extremely important matter and one that ought to be discussed. It is a matter in which the public are anxiously waiting to hear what the Minister for Education has to say.
As I said to the Leader of the House last night, no one would have expected that the Second Reading of this Bill would have been through by last night. It was quite clear that it would not be. Therefore, it is not quite candid of the Leader of the House to say that because its Second Reading did not end we cannot discuss this educational matter today. He thinks that in taking this attitude he is in some way doing some damage to the Opposition. It is a rather childish attitude of if you won't play ball I won't play ball either.
I think he can understand that there is more to the parliamentary process than that. This is a matter that needs to be discussed. It is a matter on which we need to have the Minister. All that the Leader of the House is doing by this performance is preventing this discussion taking place and preventing the people all over the country from having the opportunity to hear what the Minister for Education proposes to do.
Even at this last minute I would appeal to him to agree to this compromise. We would prefer, as Senator Quinlan said, to have education discussed all day today because we felt that if we introduced this compromise amendment to the Order of Business it would be fair to both sides that the Leader of the House would get three or so hours discussion on this Bill which he wishes to get and at the same time there would be a modified but perhaps inadequate opportunity for those who are interested to discuss the education process. I would urge the Leader of the House to accept this compromise amendment.
I am not even happy at the compromise. It was promised yesterday that we should have this education motion. When the Government agreed to this as a gesture of good-will and good faith on a matter of such extreme urgency, it was postponed again and not even allowed a continuous six hours but was interrupted by another Bill, adjourned and brought back just when continuous discussion of it was getting under way. It seems to be just a retreat to the same kind of contemptuous attitude towards education which is being evinced by the Government.
Timing is of the most vital importance with regard to the Bill. Many of the secondary schools are in a state of total distress and emergency. They are in fact in imminent danger of closing down. The sense of national disaster involved in that gives it an urgency far greater than any Bill that could possibly be moved, most of all, the Bill that is being inserted by the State here today. I would appeal to the Leader of the House to keep faith with the arrangements that were made yesterday.
I want to add my voice to those who have protested against the change of arrangements that had been agreed to. We are all aware that education is tremendously important in everybody's life and we know of the concern that exists all over the country because of the way post-primary education has been financed and treated in the last two years.
It is wrong for the Leader of the House to try to back-peddle this and to sweep it under the carpet. This is a matter that will come out in the open, whether the Government like it or not. There will be no use in the Minister for Education or anybody else telling people who are interested in education that something went wrong with the computer and that salaries and grants cannot be paid. They are lame excuses to offer people who are reasonably intelligent. The excuse of continuing on with the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill instead of taking what had been arranged and discussing it freely and openly here is a retrograde step. It is something that the people of Ireland will note and remind the Government that they cannot treat the intelligence of the people in this fashion.
Finance is tremendously important to post-primary schools, vocational of otherwise. If many of them have to close down there is no use telling them, as happened in the past, that a grant will be available at such a time. It did not happen last year. It has not been changed since 1972 or 1973 despite the fact that inflation has gone up by nearly 20 per cent. It should be discussed and it is wrong to try to stultify or to guillotine the discussion that should take place. The idea of giving preference to the obnoxious Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill is nothing short of an insult to those engaged in education.
I, like other Senators, came into the Chamber this morning prepared to debate the very important and urgent subject of the crisis in post-primary education. I regret very much that the political jockeying which is taking place and the unreal dispute evidenced during this discussion on the Order of Business may squeeze out this important subject. It is regrettable that we appear to be going through several weeks of this sort of unreal political jockeying.
It is important that the House order its business so that we tackle subjects of urgency such as this debate on post-primary education. Consequently I am in favour of the compromise suggested by the Leader of the Opposition. It is not necessary for me to take sides or to attribute blame as to why we are in this situation of deadlock, but I would ask the Leader of the House to be prepared to compromise on this matter. If we devote the rest of the morning to discussion of the Bill which the Minister is anxious to have debated, then surely we can, during the afternoon, debate the subject of post-primary education which is a matter of very keen interest to the citizens of this country and to the Senators who came prepared to discuss this topic.
I think this discussion has given us a very good example of the two faces of Fianna Fáil.
Stop this nonsense.
Take your medicine. Yesterday we had a loud, long speech from Senator McGlinchey which was disruptive of the proceedings on the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill. We have now Senator Lenihan coming in with honeyed words full of soothing syrup. I do not know whether he will go so far in this House, or whether he may avail of an opportunity on the radio to disown the tactics of Senator McGlinchey. We have Senator Yeats obviously torn between decorum and desk-thumping.
The Leader of the House is responsible for decorum but not disorder in this House.
The Chair is responsible for order and we will take care of it.
On the 24th April, I said in the House that in regard to motion 31, which is the motion on education, that we had arranged to take it on 1st May and that we had also been able to arrange to take motion No. 22 on 15th May, that is the one Senator McGowan is interested in. I continued:
I think Senators will appreciate that with the volume of business at the moment, while we certainly intend to go ahead with those dates, we have to say that it must be subject to the exigencies of Government legislation. It is certainly the intention to adhere to these dates.
I made that quite clear. It was our intention——
What about the last sentence?
I said "It is certainly our intention to adhere to those dates", but added that it had to be subject to the exigencies of Government legislation, That was within the knowledge of Senator Lenihan, as Leader of the Fianna Fáil group. It was within the knowledge of Senators Yeats and McGlinchey.
Yesterday the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill was under discussion. Senator McGlinchey deliberately occupied five-and-a-half hours and has not yet concluded. He has occupied as much time as is normally allocated to the discussion of motions in this House. The Minister for Justice has made it quite clear that the Government regard it as important to go ahead with the Criminal Law (Jurisdiction) Bill and as far as we are concerned we are not going to have that disrupted by filibustering from Senator McGlinchey or anyone else. If the very important—I fully agree— motion which it was arranged should be discussed today has been scuttled it has been scuttled by the filibustering tactics of Senator McGlinchey and the Fianna Fáil group in this House.
Nonsense.
We are not going to put up with that. They can take their medicine now. They have lost their opportunity to discuss that motion. We will do our best to have it arranged again as soon as possible. It is not possible to take it today. Senators Lenihan and Yeats should know very well that it is far easier to upset these arrangements than to make them. We had made all the arrangements, at not inconsiderable trouble for Senator Sanfey. That was upset. It was upset by Senator McGlinchey. Do not blame anyone on this side of the House. We will try to arrange it again, when I cannot say. Certainly I am not prepared to accept any compromise on this. The Bill will go ahead for discussion——
You compromise only with the British.
Members on this side of the House are concerned and you can thank Senator McGlinchey for that.
And the educational system can go bankrupt?
I will be very brief. If there is one matter on which this House is particularly equipped by reason of its quasi-vocational structure to debate fully it is education. There is an educational crisis here at the moment. We have people who can make a real contribution to discussing ways and means of rectifying the situation in post-primary education. I offered the Leader of the House a compromise, although he had agreed to give the day to the discussion of this motion. I offered the compromise that we proceed with the Bill until 2.30 this afternoon and that we could debate education from 2.30 to 5 o'clock.
I said what I had to say.
The Leader of the House has a very grave responsibility along with the Chair——
The Senator is making a speech. Please conclude it.
——in regard to keeping order in this House. It is not Senator McGlinchey, who is entitled to make his contribution, who has caused the unseemly matters in the House. It was a combination of the Minister walking out of the House, taking arbitrary action by refusing to continue for the last half-hour of Senator McGlinchey's contribution yesterday plus the action of the Leader of the House in a fit of pique——
The Senator is out of order.
——withdrawing this motion on education which people had come into this House to debate. We must challenge——
Senator Lenihan is out of order.
I am perfectly reasonable.
Perfectly disorderly.
I would like equal treatment in regard to the Leader of the House who has promoted this disorder again in the House by his——
I must point out to Senator Lenihan again that the Chair had clearly indicated the debate had concluded. It was not open for any Senator to make a contribution to the matter after that time. I allowed Senator Lenihan to rise because of his position as Leader of the Opposition. He indicated that he would be brief, that he intended to ask a question or to say something which might be allowed the indulgence of the Chair. He then reopened the substantial matter of the debate, and that was disorderly.
Amendment put: To add to the Order of Business "and that item No. 1 be interrupted at 2.30 p.m. to take item No. 29".
The Seanad divided: Tá 16; Níl 28.
Tá
- Brennan, John J.
- Cowen, Bernard.
- Dolan, Séamus.
- Eachthéirn, Cáit Uí.
- Garrett, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Keegan, Seán.
- Killilea, Mark.
- Lenihan, Brian.
- McGlinchey, Bernard.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- Martin, Augustine.
- Robinson, Mary.
- Ryan, Eoin.
- Ryan, William.
- Yeats, Michael B.
Níl
- Blennerhassett, John.
- Boland, John.
- Burton, Philip.
- Butler, Pierce.
- Connolly, Roderic.
- Codd, Patrick.
- Daly, Jack.
- Deasy, Austin.
- FitzGerald, Alexis.
- Fitzgerald, Jack.
- Halligan, Brendan.
- Higgins, Michael D.
- Kilbride, Thomas.
- Lyons, Michael Dalgan.
- McAuliffe, Timothy.
- McCartin, John Joseph.
- Mannion, John M.
- Markey, Bernard.
- Moynihan, Michael.
- O'Brien, Andy.
- O'Brien, William.
- O'Higgins, Michael J.
- O'Toole, Patrick.
- Owens, Evelyn.
- Prendergast, Micheál A.
- Sanfey, James W.
- Walsh, Mary.
- Whyte, Liam.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Garrett and W. Ryan; Níl, Senators Halligan and Sanfey.
Amendment declared lost.
Question: "That Item No. 1 be the Order of Business", put and agreed to.
I wish to state——
The Senator is not entitled to make a statement after the question is put.
I do not want to be contentious again, but the Minister for Justice was in the Chamber for a considerable part of this morning, and I would like to know from the Leader of the House why he is not present for what he alleges to be important legislation.
I do not know if I should be required to answer that kind of query, but I understand that the Minister is at the moment at a Government meeting.
On a point of order, while I have the highest respect for the Parliamentary Secretary and I am delighted to see him in this House, I am sure he would agree with him when I say that he knows nothing about this Bill. There is no reason why he should. There are a number of extremely difficult legal, constitutional points with regard to this Bill. How we are supposed to discuss it in the absence of the Minister or of anybody else who knows something about it I am unable to see.
It is not a point of order.
It is a reflection of the incredible arrogance of the Government.
On a point of order. With respect to the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries, I should like to put on the record the contempt shown to this House by the Minister for Justice and on that account and on account of the importance or the so-called importance of this Bill, I, as a mark of protest, will leave this House because, after all, I am a duly elected Member.
That is not a point of order. Senator McGlinchey to resume.
Would I be allowed explain the position of Senator Killilea, who is, in any event, paired with me for the remainder of the day?