Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 30 Jun 1976

Vol. 84 No. 8

National Stud Bill, 1976: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Finance (Mr. R. Ryan)

The main purpose of the Bill is to increase the share capital of the National Stud Company Limited. The company were formed on the enactment of the National Stud Act, 1945, with a share capital of £250,000. The share capital was increased to £500,000 in the National Stud Act, 1953, and to £2 million in the Act of 1969. The company's shares are held by the Minister for Finance.

The company operate the National Study at Tully, County Kildare. They have seven stallions which are available to breeders throughout Ireland for the service of approved mares. The fees charged range from £100 for the stallion "Linacre" bought in 1965 to £2,000 each for the more recent acquisitions, "Sallust" and "African Sky". All fees are charged with "no foal no fee" and "live foal" concessions. The company also have seven mares for breeding whose progeny are sold as yearlings.

The entire stud farm comprises 850 acres. In recent years the company are paying increasing attention to the management of the farm in order to increase their output of cattle and crops. They now produce almost their entire fodder requirements and, given satisfactory agricultural prices, hope to show a substantial profit on the farm in the years ahead.

The stud has also become an important centre of education and research. A six-month training course in stud management is held at the stud each year for boys and girls in the age group 18-25. The demand for places is exceedingly high and many students from abroad have taken these courses. The company also conduct short refresher courses for stud farm employees, and seminars and "open-days" for horsebreeders. The stud is also well known for its regular conducted tours for visitors from Ireland and abroad. The company engage in research into stud management and disease control and co-operate with the Agricultural Institute and other bodies in various areas of equine research.

They provided the site and buildings for the Racing Apprentice Centre of Education and help in the organisation of courses and the provision of lectures. Finally, the company have responsibility for the Japanese Gardens which continues to attract large attendances. The total number of visitors to the gardens in 1975 was 27,000.

The company would like to contribute further to the development of the bloodstock industry, to improve their education and research facilities and to cater for the growing number of visitors. With this in mind they have formulated a five-year development programme which envisages an increase in the number of stallions and mares at the stud, extra stabling, laboratory and research facilities, a museum of the Irish horse and possibly a health farm for horses. Discussions are being held with the company about the financial and other implications of the programme.

As the company are approaching the statutory limit on their share capital, the Government have agreed to raise the figure to £5 million. Shares will as heretofore be taken up by the Minister for Finance. The amount to be taken up from time to time will be related to the company's approved programmes and the general budgetary situation. I would also hope that in the future the company will be able to build up a capital fund to enable them to replace bloodstock and other assets in part from their own resources.

In introducing this Bill the Government are acknowledging the good work done by the company over the years and showing their confidence in the future of the bloodstock industry. We have every reason to feel proud of the National Stud. I wish to thank the directors and staff for their work and wish them every success in their plans for the future.

I now turn to the details of the Bill.

Section 1 contains the usual definitions.

Section 2 increases the share capital of the company to £5 million from the existing £2 million as fixed in the 1969 Act. It has also been decided to increase the company's borrowing limits.

Section 3 increases the maximum amount which may be borrowed by the company from £0.2 million to £0.5 million. Borrowing is subject to ministerial approval.

Section 4 relates to the pay of the company's chief officer. As part of general policy on remuneration in the public service, it is desired to avail of this legislation to bring the chief officer's pay under ministerial control. Similar provisions have been made in recent legislation affecting other State-sponsored bodies.

Section 5 relates to the accounts to be kept by the company, the auditing of accounts and the submission of accounts and annual reports to the Minister for presentation to each House of the Oireachtas. There is no change of substance but a modern text replaces provisions which were included in the 1945 and 1953 Acts.

Section 6 is another modernising provision. It has become standard practice to provide that, where a member of the board of a State-sponsored body is nominated as a Member of Seanad Éireann or nominated for election to either House of the Oireachtas, he shall cease to be a member of the board. Similarly, sitting Members of either House may not become members or employees of the board. Employees of a State-sponsored body stand seconded from their employment from the date of nomination if nominated as Members of Seanad Éireann or nominated for election to either House. There are no such provisions in the National Stud Acts. Section 6 corrects this omission.

Section 7 arises from a decision of the Government to transfer direct responsibility for certain State-sponsored bodies from the Minister for Finance to other Ministers. One of these bodies is the National Stud Company for which the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries will in future have primary responsibility. The National Stud farm is already vested in the Minister for Agriculture and he has a number of statutory functions in relation to the stud. The principal change now effected is to give him the function of appointing the directors of the company, subject to consultation with the Minister for Finance.

Section 8 repeals the accounting provisions in the 1945 Act and repeals the 1953 and 1969 Acts in full.

I recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

Mr. W. Ryan

Although I come from an area where bloodstock is famous, Tipperary, I regret to say that horse racing is something about which I know very little. Apart from the fact that in Tipperary we have bred some outstanding horses, horses that have won all the big events, both on the flat and in steeplechasing, I am well aware of the great employment which this industry is giving. I venture to say that were it not for the number of workers employed in stud farms and racing stables, we would have very few agricultural workers in Tipperary. That is one of my reasons for supporting this Bill, which provides for increasing the share capital of the National Stud.

The Minister has told us that the reason for seeking this extra capital is that the National Stud wish to buy extra bloodstock. This is something which we all welcome. In one passage of his speech the Minister mentioned that the entire stud farm comprises 850 acres. I was not aware that the stud farm was that big. To us in Tipperary, 850 acres is a great amount of land. It surprised me to hear the Minister say that they hoped to show a substantial profit on the farm in the years ahead. That suggests that the stud farm has not made a profit in the past. The Minister has often said that farmers are pretty well off. If people with 850 acres are unable to make a profit, I do not know how he can expect small farmers in Kildare and elsewhere to show a profit.

In reading the Dáil Official Report I notice that mention was made of a new road which Kildare County Council were supposed to build through the National Stud, and it was suggested that that should not happen. I would not like to see it happen, but at the same time I believe that stud farms should be classed the same as every other farm when it comes to road improvements. If it is necessary for Kildare County Council to build a road—and I have no doubt it is, as the main road in the area is a very narrow road—and to take land from the National Stud to do so, I see nothing wrong about it, because they would do that with a dairy farmer or any other farmer. Only a few years ago another stud farmer in county Kildare succeeded in preventing the ESB from putting poles across his land. I would not like to see the racing people held that much above the ordinary farmer.

I am pleased that responsibility for the National Stud is to be transferred from the Department of Finance to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries. I always felt that State bodies should be the responsibility of the relevant Minister, be it in regard to agriculture or industry. I hope that, when responsibility for the National Stud is transferred to the Department of Agriculture and Fisheries, the Minister for Agriculture and Fisheries will have the final say and will not have to go with cap in hand to the Minister for Finance for more money for some project to be carried out by the National Stud. The Department of Agriculture and Fisheries should have money to meet the future needs of the National Stud. Any stud farm of 850 acres charging high fees should eventually be able to pay its way and should not be asking the Government for money.

The racing industry is an important industry as far as agriculture is concerned. As well as giving employment it is of interest to tourists. As a member of the Council of Europe, I have been taken on tours in other countries. Most of the tours are to cathedrals and museums. When visitors come here we have brought them instead to the National Stud, the Japanese Gardens and places of that kind. They have all told us they were far more interested in them than what we saw. I do not want to denigrate cathedrals or museums, but you can get tired looking at them.

There are to be only five members on the board. The view was expressed in the other House that the board should be increased to nine. I believe it should. I think that five for such a big establishment is very small. I am not sure how many board members there are in the Sugar Company; there are more than five, anyway. The Sugar Company deals with, you might say, only one thing—sugar beet. A horse-breeding board has to deal with horse racing, horse breeding and everything like that. Even at this stage the Minister should consider increasing the number on the board to at least seven.

I was surprised to learn from the Dáil debates that it costs so much to keep mares at the National Stud. It appears that certain stud owners in this country were keeping mares for £5 and that that it was costing £25 in the National Stud. I do not believe it is possible to keep a mare anywhere for £5, and I suppose even £25 is not all that high. However, I think that for the sake of the small breeder the National Stud should keep the mare at the same rate as the small stud owner. If the small stud owner can keep the mare at a certain price, I see no reason why the National Stud should not do it.

There is just one point in the section dealing with nominations for the Dáil or Seanad. While I agree that a member of a board should not be a Member of either Houses of the Oireachtas, I still think the fact that you are nominated for such a position should not disqualify you from being a member of this board or of any other board. As far as horse racing is concerned, the Irish Bloodstock Breeders' Association have a nomination to the Seanad. I am sure that the Minister would be thinking of selecting someone from that body to be a member of the National Stud Board because that association embraces nearly every horse breeder in the country.

Now the danger I see is that you have people in this country who are very interested in horse racing and they are also very interested in politics. They might make a decision that they cannot be involved in both. If that man or woman decides to remain on as a board member of the National Stud or of any other board, we might be losing their services as a politician. On the other hand, you could apply it the other way: men in politics might not take an active part as a member of the board of the National Stud.

That is all I have to say about the Bill. I hope that it will not be necessary for this Minister or any other Minister to come before us again asking for extra capital because, as has been pointed out, the stud farm should be able to pay its way in a very short time.

Minister for Finance (Mr. R. Ryan)

I am grateful to Senator Ryan for his remarks. I had under contemplation since the Dáil and even before then the possibility of increasing the size of the present board. It is sometimes argued that small is beautiful.

If that be so, one should not interfere. The present board are working very successfully. The need to increase the board does not arise because of any special problems that have so far arisen. However, I anticipate that the board's responsibilities may increase in the years ahead. Therefore, if the Seanad is to be agreeable, even at this late stage, it is proposed to move an amendment on Committee Stage increasing the number from five to seven.

I would not think that a board of nine would be justified. While the board has serious responsibilities, they are not such as to require the detailed contributions that other concerns might require. For instance, the need to have representational interest in the Sugar Company necessitates quite a large board. I think the same would not apply to the National Stud, but perhaps we could reach a compromise that the figure of seven would be more than adequate to meet the responsibilities and opportunities facing the board in the years ahead.

I think the fees charged by the board are reasonably in line with fees generally in the country; there are many studs that charge a great deal more than £25 a week. I do not know where the figure of £5 came from, but it does not relate to 1976. If any person is providing accommodation at that price now they must be losing heavily on it. The National Stud is not in fact a profit making agency. It has never paid any dividends on the money advanced to it by the State. When you consider that the State insists on getting some dividends— often a lot less than commercial rates —from other concerns, including the concerns assisted by Fóir Teoranta, it is not unreasonable to anticipate that the National Stud should also make some payment in respect of the costly capital which it receives from the State, but it is not doing it and has not done it to date. I would hope the position can be remedied in the future.

Senator Ryan pointed to the farm not having made profit and asks me to translate that particular experience into general attitudes in relation to the profitability or otherwise of farming. Of course, it would be very wrong to argue from the particular to the general. I should like to congratulate the board, the general manager and the staff on the tremendous improvements that have been made in the running of the farm in recent years, which is not run for the sake of commercial profits as much as for the purpose of providing fodder for the horses that are stabled at the stud. In recent times I have been emphasising the need to run it at a profit because it is wrong that such valuable and productive land should not be used to its full potential. I am glad to say that, as a result of great dedication and effort on the part of management, there has been a significant improvement in this area, which is something I am sure the House commends.

I trust this meets most of the points mentioned by Senator Ryan. I would not disagree with most of what he said, but perhaps I would not have the same emphasis. I can only hope that the Kildare County Council, the National Stud and all other interests will find a satisfactory solution in the not too distant future to the question of the provision of a new road across the Curragh of Kildare which I think is the most hazardous part of the main road from Dublin southwards. Whatever about the need to cater for our bloodstock, there is a need to cater for human beings who have to travel that road. The sooner a solution is found to that problem the better. I am sure it will be possible to arrive at a solution which will not do serious harm to the horse-breeding industry.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.