I accept the Chair's ruling that I cannot speak on these matters. I accept it with some disappointment and some fear that lack of reference to these matters in this House during this debate might be misinterpreted outside as lack of interest or care about them. Rules of Order are there to be observed and I assure the Chair that I accept the ruling and will endeavour to abide by it both in the letter and in the spirit.
I welcome this Bill because it puts statutory clothing on an agreement reached when I was Minister, as this Minister has generously acknowledged. I should like to pay tribute to all who were involved in those negotiations, the representative bodies for gardaí, sergeants and station sergeants and inspectors who, of course, are the main bodies involved on the Garda side. Originally one of those bodies, the representative body of the gardaí, as far as I recall, made a suggestion that the time had come for us to permit a trade union in the Garda and that the right to strike should be looked at. We debated that matter amicably and they agreed with me that such structures within a police force would not be appropriate. They accepted that willingly. In such acceptance they were, in fact, reflecting what I am satisfied is a widely held view in the force: the vast majority of members see striking or membership of a trade union in the traditional sense as being incompatible with their job.
I should like, too, to pay tribute to the officers of the Department who conducted these negotiations on behalf of the Government, to pay tribute to their patience and skill in reconciling what at times seemed to be immovable objects and irresistible forces. There is a myth in the media that there is a state of constant suspicion and hostility, if not downright war, between the Department of Justice and the representative bodies of the Garda Síochána. I should like to put it on record that this is not so. It seemed clear to me as an observer close to the scene and seeing both sides separately and informally very often, that this is definitely not so and that the relationship personally and corporately was friendly.
It was evident to me that there was mutual trust and respect and trust by each side in the bona fides of the other and respect on each side for the negotiating prowess of the other. It is important that that be put on the record so that there will be no misunderstanding about it. Difficult negotitions were conducted skilfully and with patience and they were successful. We have to remember that this Bill represents agreed changes and that that agreement could not have come without the co-operation and assistance of the Commissioner and the headquarters staff of the Garda.
It is important also to put on record that that co-operation was willingly forthcoming. All the parties involved in these negotiations were motivated by one thing only: to devise a regime that would be broadly acceptable and generally good for the well-being and morale of the force. The Bill does not reflect, because it does not have to, the full extent of the changes agreed. The Minister touched on the questions of discipline, transfers and promotion needs. These are, obviously, very thorny matters in a large organisation but they are brought to particular difficulty when the organisation in question is one which is subject to formal discipline and the members of it have to serve right throughout the country in every corner. It is an organisation which has an informal hierarchical structure and obviously questions of discipline, transfers and promotions are matters that could lead to difficulty and misunderstandings. I was pleased that the changes which are being brought about will provide for structures in which many of these misunderstandings can be removed and in which there will be confidence and satisfaction with the procedures in all of these areas, that all the members will be satisfied that the procedures are equitable, even-handed, unbiased and totally fair. I found also that there was a fund of goodwill towards the changes and a desire to make them work. I noticed—this was very striking to me in my relationships with various members of the force from the highest to the newest recruit—that there was a great loyalty to their force and a great wish to see it as a successful one and to see that it would be a contented force. These changes will go a long way towards achieving that. Other changes are necessary.
During my time I commissioned a survey by a firm of management consultants of the Garda force. The force as we have it today is structured as it was founded in the twenties and there have been no substantial changes since; but the society which it serves is vastly different from the society of the twenties. I thought it time to look at the force from a quasi scientific point of view and to see if its structures are suitable for today and if unsuitable, or even partly suitable, how they might be changed and to recommend changes. I also wanted to look at the personnel problems of the force. That work has been completed and the reports were available a matter of days before I left. I did not have more than a passing interest in them at that stage. I imagine that by now my successor has had the benefit of departmental analysis of the reports and the benefit of his own readings of them. I would be interested to hear him, when he is replying, give some indication of action that may be coming on foot of these reports, his views generally on what has been recommended and whether he accepts the recommendations or whether he thinks they go far enough, do not go far enough, his general state of satisfaction, or otherwise, with the analysis done by the management consultants. I should say that there was no clash between these changes and what the consultants were briefed to do. These changes are quite net and quite narrow, affecting the statutory position of the representative bodies. I have no doubt that the management consultants having regard to the wide terms of reference and the detailed survey they conducted will be reporting on matters very fundarnental to the structure and organisation of our police force.
Allied with that I would be glad to hear from the Minister what his views would be on the question of the setting up of a police authority. I indicated on many occasions that I was generally in favour of that idea. I have been accused by a newspaper of having abandoned the idea. On many occasions I made it clear that I had not abandoned but that it would be pointless proceeding with something as fundamental as a police authority in advance of the findings of the management consultants. Now that those findings are to hand I would be interested to hear from the Minister if he considers that the idea of a police authority is still relevant to the Garda Síochána scene and if it would be compatible with the findings of the survey team and what his personal views are on it. I will not ask him at this stage to give any indication of how he thinks it might be constructed and its powers and role. That would be a matter for a separate debate and something on which he would want more notice.
This Bill is to legislate for changes which have been agreed with the representative bodies and which will go to effect the sense of well-being in the forces. It is an updating, in a small but significant way, of the personnel policies being practised in the force. To have proper structures and a proper legal framework is important so that the parties involved will know the limits of their rights to negotiate and act on behalf of their members. It is important for the welfare of the force that these things are settled. I am glad that there is no agitation here, as there is in an adjoining jurisdiction, on the question of pay. Our police force is well paid and it is well equipped. The numbers are being increased substantially. They were increased over 1,000 during my term of office and the Government of which I was a member had sanctioned an increase by a further 1,000.
There was dissatisfaction from time to time with the amount of overtime available for police to provide extra services. In this year the figure provided in the Estimate was £5 million and a further £450,000 was made available for overtime. I know the Minister, when in Opposition, was concerned that overtime was not being paid sufficiently generously and that as a result there was lack of police presence. I would be glad to hear from him at this stage, the second last month of the year, the level he thinks overtime will run at for this year and if it will be much in excess of £5,450,000.
I hope that the new members coming into the force will obviate the need for a considerable amount of overtime. We should know by this time next year how they will affect the position. It certainly would be a happy day for the force if they could be relieved of the burden of having to work long hours of overtime. Secondly, overtime inevitably brings dissatisfaction to a force as large as this by reason of the fact that some members are in a position, bona fide, to earn more money than colleagues on the same grade. It would be a good day for the Garda Síochána if overtime as such could be abolished. We will not know until, possibly, this time next year when most of the extra 1,000 men are serving, how the extra numbers are coping with the increasing demands on police time.
Unfortunately, it does seem from the crime statistics that the crime problem will not get smaller. It may well be that the increase in the number of men will only keep pace with the increase in the number of problems they have to deal with and the need for overtime may continue. That is in the future, but to give us an indication of what the situation is likely to be in the future I should be glad if the Minister would give some idea of what he expects the out-turn to be this year.
I note that it is proposed to change the title of the representative body and to use the word "association". I suppose this is the age of the euphemism and there cannot be any objection to that but an association will still represent its members and a representative body was an association of gardaí which had come together for that purpose. If it has the effect of improving the personnel position within the force and of making it easier for the members to liaise with outside bodies, then that is a perfectly acceptable change.
The role of a representative body in a force that is disciplined and hierarchical in structure is, of course, a difficult and delicate one, particularly when it has the statutory duty and obligation to represent their numbers in all matters affecting their welfare and efficiency. Now it is being given a role in matters concerning promotion, trasfers and discipline. This will obviously place a serious but delicate burden on the members of the representative body. They are essentially an association representing particular grades. They do not have any function in the organisation and management and determination of the role of the police force. Nevertheless, in discharging the statutory functions it obviously must have concern in these areas. How that concern is expressed and how the expression of that concern is received are obviously areas that could be potentially abrasive.
I am satisfied that, with the changes made here, we will see in the future a very harmonious relationship. I am not suggesting that in the past it was anything other, but I am saying that in the future we will see a consistently harmonious relationship in which the representative bodies will be conscious that their prime function as an association representing particular grades in the job is to see that their well-being and efficiency are looked after. Their prime function is not to tell the Government or the persons charged by statute with running the Garda Síochána how the Garda should be run or what the role of the Garda should be. Certainly they will have an input like any other citizen in matters of major public importance. I merely mention these points to show the difficulties that are present in practical terms for a representative body discharging its functions.
I have no doubt that the officers of the representative bodies are sensitive to these situations and to the delicacy and the responsibility of their position. They are sensitive to the important role they can play in engendering a mood of satisfaction and contentment among the members of the force. That, in turn, will bring with it a certain heightened sense of morale which is basic to a high level of performance. I am satisfied that they are aware of the importance of their role in that regard. I am equally satisfied that with the changes that must inevitably come from the management consultants report and the changes forced on any police force in an evolving society, we will continue to be well served by our Garda Síochána.
As I indicated in my opening remarks, a Chathaoirleach, it does seem rather odd that in discussing the Garda Síochána we cannot touch on matters which are of current controversy. I accept your ruling on it. I think it is common case that this nation has been well served by the members of the Garda Síochána. In so far as this Bill goes to improve their lot, it is welcome and I hope it will be successful in its operation.