I should like to ask a question in regard to section 1 (5). The Minister retains for himself the power of veto over the forms of association which the new body may make with outside bodies. I am disturbed over the word "association". Perhaps the Minister would explain whether he would prohibit the Garda association seeking advice from a trade union affiliated to the Congress of Trade Unions or other such labour associations?
Garda Síochána Bill, 1977: Committee and Final Stages.
Question proposed: "That section 1 stand part of the Bill."
I apologise to the House for my absence. I also apologise to the Parliamentary Secretary, who had to stand in at the last minute, for being prepared to do so. I thank the Members of the House for not teasing him more than they did. In an effort to keep everything in order, I suggest to Senator Cooney that at some stage he might ask me the question which Deputy Andrews tried to answer. Perhaps I could answer it better.
With regard to Senator Markey I had hoped to reply to the point made by him in the course of the Second Stage. I understand that he considers the wording of subsection (5) of that section to be too restrictive and would like an assurance that it would not be applied in a restrictive way. I understand there is common ground between the Department and the representative bodies about the intentions of this section. It certainly will not be used in any arbitrial discriminatory fashion and this is accepted by the representative bodies. On the question of affiliation of any individual association, that is something which will be judged on its merits at the time.
It appears therefore to me that each particular occasion on which the Garda representative association were submitting a claim, whatever it might be, if they wished to obtain outside assistance or help or consultation with an outside body, they would have to go to the Minister on each occasion to seek his approval, or is it the Minister's intention to give blanket approval in advance to the various bodies which they could consult with? It seems to me a bit restrictive that the negotiating members of the Garda association must on each occasion seek the Minister's approval to consult with outside bodies.
As it stands, with regard to having liaison with any outside organisations, they would have to come to the Minister of the day, but again the bodies involved are quite satisfied that this is not any restriction whatsoever on them and they are quite satisfied that this is workable as far as they are concerned. I think it will lead to a certain amount of friction. Might I assure the Senator that in line with what was said by a Senator earlier, this Bill has to do with the Garda Síochána and that the Government of the day, and indeed the Oireachtas of the day, would want to bend over backwards to help the Garda Síochána at all times to cooperate with them and help them in every way rather than put obstacles in their way. We all hope that the goodwill already there will continue to be there. We will do everything we can to keep it there.
In particular, on subsection (3), which expressly prohibits the Garda Síochána from becoming members of a trade union, there was a certain amount of confusion when the Parliamentary Secretary was replying to the Second Reading. He seemed to be unaware that there had been an original application for trade union status, and my attempts to draw his attention to this lead to a certain exchange. I had sympathy for the Parliamentary Secretary, who was thrown in at the deep end, but I would welcome some further comment from the Minister himself on the question of whether in the long term it might be possible to give full freedom of association to the Garda. I should be obliged if he would respond to some of the comments that have been made by other Senators on this point.
I can only apologise to the Senator and to the Parliamentary Secretary for any misunderstanding that might have arisen between them. The position with regard to section 3 about having trade union status is that the Government are agreed that this is something that is not on. The previous Government, of which the Senator's party were part, agreed that that was not on. The Garda representative bodies themselves agreed that they were not pushing for this. They are quite happy, and as long as everybody is happy we have a contented force and we can let them get on with the job that they want to do and that we want them to do.
The Parliamentary Secretary may have replied to a point I made but I was not there, and I apologise for that. There is now an opportunity on subsection (3) of section 1. I asked whether the associations could affiliate with a trade union. Subsection (3) deals with the individual rather than the association and I am wondering does that debar the association, or is there anything contained in that section that debars the association from becoming affiliated to a trade union?
I would refer the Senator to subsection (2):
Subject to subsection (5) of this section, every association established pursuant to subsection (1) of this section shall be independent of and unassociated with any body or person outside the Garda Síochána.
In subsection (1) line 15 do I read "surgeon"?
Yes.
Could I be informed—I am sure many Members would like to share the knowledge— to whom "surgeon" applies.
If the Senator were an applicant for membership of the Garda Síochána he would certainly know at which stage he would meet the surgeon because, unfortunately for many applicants, the surgeon is the man to keep them from going in if their eyesight or their health generally is not up to the general standards required for the force.
Does he belong to a rank of inspector upwards, so to speak?
Above chief superintendent.
Question put and agreed to.
Sections 2 to 4, inclusive, agreed to.
Title agreed to.
Bill reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.