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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Dec 1978

Vol. 90 No. 8

Restrictive Practices (Confirmation of Order) (No. 3) Bill, 1978: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill arises as a result of recent difficulties experienced in the grocery trade. Senators will be aware that a boycott was placed earlier this year on the products of a certain company by a group representing wholesale and retail interests. Among the issues at the time was the question of retail sales of grocery goods below cost.

The boycott was a matter of some concern to me, as it was, indeed, to all parties in the trade. Accordingly, I asked the Examiner of Restrictive Practices, who has a monitoring function in this area, to intervene. Under his chairmanship it was agreed that boycott activity would cease, at least until the end of November this year, on the understanding that suppliers would, at the same time, withhold supplies from retailers who sold below cost.

It became clear during discussions that the issue ran deeper than the question of below-cost selling and, since the agreement was only temporary in nature and had implications for existing legislation in this area, the Restrictive Practices Commission became involved in further discussions with all interested parties. The commission, mindful of the fact that the underlying issue related to the whole question of the terms and conditions of supply and also that the independent negotiations on this question would require some time before an agreement could be concluded, first succeeded in arranging a further moratorium on boycott activity, to the end of March, 1979, and then turned their attention to the type of amending legislation required.

A situation in which manufacturers were, on the one hand, threatened by a boycott from one group of customers and, on the other, were having to give to another group the sort of terms that enabled them to indulge in below-cost selling, would, if it were to persist, most assuredly not be in the economic interests of the country. In the short-term perhaps it might serve to make certain products available at lower prices for some consumers—but this would be on a very limited scale. In the long-term it would almost certainly lead to the loss of jobs in manufacturing industry and the substitution of imported goods for the products of the firms which would have had to close. And concurrent with such adverse developments, that minority of consumers who had earlier benefited from below-cost selling would be likely to find themselves paying higher prices for their groceries.

Before proceeding further, I wish to refer briefly to the existing legal position. The first Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Order, made in 1956, provided, inter alia, that suppliers could withhold supplies of goods from a retailer if the latter resold at or below wholesale price and refused to give an undertaking that he would desist from doing so. The amending order made in 1973, however, repealed this provision in so far as it applied to grocery foodstuffs. One of the main considerations behind this amendment was the connection which was then seen to exist between advertising of below-cost sales and the practice of below-cost selling itself. Without widespread advertising, most of the impact of below-cost sales tended to be lost. The advertising of such sales had, moreover, other undesirable features notably that it served to give to the buying public a misleading impression of the entire range of prices being charged in the outlet or outlets concerned.

In reality, of course, the bulk of prices must reflect a margin which will both cover retailing cost and yield a profit, and advertising of this nature creates overall an unfavourable impression of the prices being charged in independent and small retail outlets, resulting in serious losses in sales. This automatically tends to facilitate the domination of the trade by multiple organisations. It was, therefore, considered that the prohibition of a practice which was seen to have a number of undesirable features would also have the effect of eliminating the actual practice of selling below purchase price. In their report to me, the commission recommended that the Restrictive Practices (Groceries) Orders should be amended to reapply, in relation to all grocery goods, the provision in the 1956 order enabling suppliers to withhold supplies from persons who engage in below cost selling. The commission also recommended that the prohibition on the advertising for sale of goods below cost should be restated so as to apply this prohibition to the advertising of all grocery goods.

I have accepted the commission's recommendations and an order giving them effect has been made and published. This explains the appearance of this Bill before the House today.

In addition to this measure, I can assure the House that the various other provisions of the existing groceries orders will be actively enforced. I am confident, however, that the various parties in the trade will comply with the relevant regulations and that the situation will be defused to an extent which will create a climate conducive to the early conclusion of negotiations on terms and conditions of supply. It is my earnest wish that these negotiations will be brought to a successful conclusion as early as possible and I trust that the House, in confirming this order, will share in these sentiments.

This is a very short Bill and order and I will be brief in my contribution. This legislation passed through the Dáil last night with what I can describe fairly as indecent haste but it was an indication of the serious situation that had developed in relation to the threatened boycott. It seems to me that legislation like this is not desirable generally but when one reaches a stage where certain wholesalers and retailers can become so big that they can bully their way through a market, obviously something has to be done. I welcome the order but I regret that it is necessary but, obviously, it is in view of the developments over the past several months. I wonder, however, whether the Bill and the order actually go far enough. I appreciate that if somebody who proposes selling greatly below cost is unable to advertise except on his own premises that the impact of his sales will be, to a large extent, lost. However, at the same time, some of these very big operators, because they attract so many thousands of people week by week into their stores, will be able to attract people to this below-cost selling.

I know this is an extremely difficult area into which one might bring controls through legislation. I do not know what terms the Minister was referring to when she said that some of these bigger groups, obviously the groups that were engaging in the malpractice, were able to obtain the sort of terms that enabled them to indulge in below-cost selling. I presume she is referring to terms other than the actual price of goods. I do not know what she is getting at but if they are buying at the same price as the other wholesalers and are selling literally at a loss to enable them to attract customers into their store I wonder whether one could introduce legislation to prohibit the suppliers actually supplying such people.

Obviously, the major difficulty with this is one of monitoring. The Director of Consumer Affairs I gather will be appointed very shortly. I might say in passing that I am disappointed at the delay. I recall when the Consumer Information Act was passed here almost 12 months ago that the Minister gave an undertaking that she would proceed as quickly as possible and I do not think a period of almost one year is reasonable in the circumstances. However, the Director of Consumer Affairs when appointed would be in a position to monitor difficulties like this and, where necessary, either through his own agency, through some other agency or through the Department, introduce orders prohibiting suppliers from supplying goods to people who sell at below cost. It causes great problems. It reminds me of a story that was told about a shopkeeper in Nenagh some years ago when we were dealing in old money. He started a very big supermarket which was going well. In order to attract a good Christmas trade he advertised bottles of Irish whiskey at, say, £2.10.0 and they were actually costing at the time five shillings more for him to buy. He was causing great consternation because a lot of people were attracted to his store. About three days later a small shop about two doors down put up an advertisement to the effect that they were selling the whiskey at 2s. 6d. less than the big supermarket was selling it for. The supermarket owner became very concerned about this and made what inquiries he could but could not discover where this man was buying the whiskey. He went to the grocer and said: "For heaven's sake, I lose 5/- on every bottle of whiskey I sell because I can only buy it at 5/- more than I am selling it; how can you do it? "The small shopkeeper said: "I am buying it from you and it is only costing me 2/6 a bottle when I sell it."

That shows that when one gets into this area of cut-price and dirty price wars it is a rat race, a vicious circle that one cannot stop. I regret that this order is necessary, it obviously is. I support it fully as all Members of the House will but I should like to ask the Minister whether she is satisfied that nothing further could be done in relation to control. As the order stands a supplier will still be able to supply somebody who is selling beneath cost, and I wonder if something more direct could be done to try to alleviate this.

I should like to support the Bill. In any measure like this we are concerned with the benefits to the public generally and the immediate benefits to the consumer. I do not think that the sort of practice which is being dealt with here is of any real benefit to the public or to the immediate consumer. It is just a form of "come on" which may receive a good deal of publicity but in the short term it is devised primarily so that the consumer can be attracted in and, perhaps, spend more in the short term. In the long term it has, of course, the various defects which the Minister and Senator Molony have mentioned in that it is likely, as with all these things, that after a temporary fall there is a compensatory rise. On a very trifling scale or within a local area this might not matter very much but when it becomes a question of large-scale organisations doing this kind of thing not to the benefit of the consumer but, effectively, tending to stifle competition from smaller shops and also running the risk of interfering considerably with the actual production of goods of this nature by the smaller suppliers it is a different matter. We have to be very careful that we do not run into a situation here where effectively what is happening is that goods are being dumped at a temporary apparent benefit to the consumer and, of course, a long-term loss and disability to us all. A number of these practices should be looked at, and I am glad to see that this particular one is being stamped on by the Minister.

This Bill is one which the Labour Members of the Seanad also welcome because it deals with a specific problem which has arisen and was giving rise to both boycotting of supplies and misrepresentation to the individual consumer and a very difficult position for the small trader. However, the problem with such a Bill is that its scope is very narrow and limited. It is brought in as an urgent measure to curtail a particular practice which had been going on in this area, but it is not meeting the major problem which is the primary concern of the Labour Party, the increasing rise in food prices generally and in prices in the grocery trade.

For a very significant number of people it is not a question of even being able to shop around and look for bargains. It is that there are no bargains left. Many items on the grocery bill are beyond the reach of so many families. This is a very urgent matter indeed and it is one which affects most of the families at the lowest end of the scale, those on the poverty line, those totally dependent on social welfare, the unemployed. The need is for a sense that this urgency is appreciated in the Department and that the Minister is going to take the necessary initiative and steps to provide a fair deal for the consumer, particularly for the poor consumer here. If we reflect on the overall position we will see that we are a country where the producers' lobbies are much more effective and better organised than the consumer. We do not have a strong consumer consciousness and we do not have the voice of the oppressed poor consumer well represented.

In this Bill the Minister is rightly concerned about the kinds of misleading advertising of low prices which dupe the individual consumer, and render the position of the small trader very hard and uncompetitive and could put them out of business or make their business very difficult to maintain. The actual terms of the Bill are acceptable, but there is an urgent necessity for an overall examination of food prices generally and, specifically, the prices of grocery products and fresh fruit products which are the products of our own soil.

Refererence to that, unfortunately, is not in order on this Bill which merely deals with those who are selling below cost.

I appreciate that the scope of this measure is very limited. It is because of the urgency of the need to redress a constantly worsening situation that, in welcoming the narrow scope of the Bill, I feel that what is required of the Minister is a greater sense of urgency and purpose in her Department. I agree with Senator Molony that there seems to be a strange lassitude or delay in appointing a director of consumer affairs. There seems to be a lack of appreciation of the hardship and misery of a housewife on a very low income trying to buy groceries for a family. That is where our priorities should be and where there is a need for more than this immediate short-term and rather technical measure. The situation is one where there is a need for a much wider appreciation of how bad things have got, how ill-protected the consumer is in Ireland and how much tension is being caused even in the family situation by the inability, particularly of the housewife, to cope on the budget and how many families are now doing without basic foodstuffs.

The Senator is going outside the scope of the Bill.

I accept your ruling on the matter. I urge the important priority of an overall protection of the consumer against rising food prices.

I should like to thank the three Senators who spoke for their support on the Bill and their understanding of the need for it at this time. I regret, just as Senator Molony does, that this type of legislation has to be brought before either House of the Oireachtas, but as we know from the background which I mentioned in my speech it is necessary. The situation will have to be kept under constant review, and if any further remedial action is necessary to ensure that the consumer gets a fair deal then that remedial action will be taken. When I spoke about terms negotiated by certain retailers—when I speak of retailers I am referring to multiples—which allow them to sell below cost, I was speaking of terms, including discounts. All members will appreciate that there are loss leaders and that the big multiples can make up by having greater margins on other products or goods in their stores. Those of us who live down the country and who represent consumers from constituencies, such as Senator Molony's in Tipperary and my own area in the west, realise that very often the prices which are quoted in the national newspapers by outlets in Dublin are not the same prices which are charged in the same multiple outlets in our constituencies. This would appear to be contrary to the Consumer Information Act, 1978 and it is a question which I brought up last night in the Dáil and which I said was a matter for the immediate investigation by the Director of Consumer Affairs.

I am just as frustrated as anyone else that the director has not been appointed but it has been outside my control for a considerable length of time; it is with the Civil Service Commission and it is not my duty or function to criticise the functions or delays which may occur in the Civil Service Commission machinery. However, I feel, as Senator Molony has pointed out, that the director will be appointed very early in 1979.

I dealt with the points which were raised by Senators and I would like again to thank them for their welcome for the Bill and for their appreciation of the need for it at this time.

Question put and agreed to.
Agreed to take remaining Stages today.
Bill put through Committee, reported without amendment, received for final consideration and passed.
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