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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 27 Jun 1979

Vol. 92 No. 7

Garda Síochána Bill, 1979: Fifth Stage (Resumed).

Question again proposed: "That the Bill do now pass."

When the Seanad adjourned proceedings on this Bill last week I was making the point that the Government, having committed a gigantic legal error, had an obligation to rectify the position of any citizens prejudiced by that legal error. The point has been made that nothing happened to people that would not have happened in any event, but in answer to that I said that people are entitled to expect to be dealt with, not just according to the facts of their case, but according to the law relevant to their case. Because of the legal mess that the Government's action created, there was no law for many of the people dealt with during the course of the invalid 12 months or so. The result was that a considerable number of citizens—I do not know how many—whether they be members of the force who were disciplined, or who were promoted, or members of the public, who occasionally make applications to the Garda for one thing or another, who found themselves being refused their application or, indeed, even granted the application, or citizens who were convicted in the courts, who possibly are now serving jail sentences, have all been prejudiced because the Government made a gigantic legal mistake.

The Government were also guilty of a gigantic breach of injustice against the then Commissioner, and I will deal with this matter later.

The people who have been prejudiced, by reason of the Government's action—I mean prejudiced in law and not necessarily in fact—are entitled to have their position rectified. The Government have an obligation to come out of this sordid affair with clean hands. It is not enough for the Government to come before the Houses of the Oireachtas and say: "Here is a Bill and when it is passed the status quo will be restored.” That is not sufficient. The Government must be seen to come out with totally clean hands and the only way they can do that is for them to take an initiative in searching out cases where persons were prejudiced during the term of the invalid appointment and rectifying the position so far as those citizens are concerned.

It is not enough for the Government to say in this House that they are providing the law and if any citizen feels aggrieved by what happened to him he may proceed to the courts. I submit to this House that that is not sufficient; it is putting an unfair onus on a person who may not be in a position, for financial or social reasons, to take up that onus and rectify his own position. Because the State made a legal mess it is up to it to cure the consequences of that mess and be seen by all the citizens of the country to want to come out of this sordid affair with clean hands. For this reason I urged the Minister last week to consider that proposition in the hope that he would come back to this House today and tell us that he was agreeable to it and that he was arranging for the law officers of the State to investigate these matters with a view to rectifying them.

I put forward the case, namely that the State had done an injustice in law to many citizens through the term of the invalid appointment, with total confidence in its correctness. Unfortunately, I cannot anticipate with the same confidence that there will be a similar reaction on the part of the Government. It would be out of character with the injustice that was perpetrated earlier on an individual citizen and out of character for a Government who showed themselves careless about the norms of justice and proper standards of procedure where citizens are concerned. I regret that I cannot look forward with confidence to getting a satisfactory answer to a case the correctness of which is beyond dispute. However, we shall have to wait and see if my gloomy forebodings are justified.

In the course of this debate last week it appeared, from what I read subsequently in newspapers, that the Minister was relying on what he called a "background" to imply justification for the action of the Government, and he referred to certain papers being available to me, lest my memory might be faulty. I am well aware of the background, but the difference between the Minister and myself is that I was not prepared to do other than support the head of the national police force against suborning tactics by certain elements to have him removed from office. I did not consider that this so-called background justified anything less than total loyalty to a man who was giving good service to the State, whose ideas were right and who was implementing them. The Minister, on the other hand—my successor—possibly because of constraints that preempted him, from his days in Opposition, felt that he had to treat this so-called background in a different way. Instead of giving support to a loyal servant of the State he collaborated in his subornation. The proof of that is contained in a statement in The Irish Times of 25 March 1978 where it is actually printed that the Representative Body of the Garda had written to the Minister to discharge their chief officer. That is an appalling state of affairs and it is the background to which the Minister was referring. That is a sordid background. It is regrettable that the Minister, instead of supporting the chief officer of the national police force, who has been guilty of no misconduct, to use the Taoiseach's words, chose to treat him unjustly and in an appallingly harsh way.

I want to make it quite clear that so far as background is concerned I am aware of this so-called background but it was not one that would have persuaded me to have anything less than confidence in the then Commissioner. This leads me to make one further point: to reiterate a call that I made in March of this year for the establishment of a police authority. It is important that some body should be interposed between the police force and the Minister of the day. What I said when I spoke in March of last year was that the changes that have taken place in the development of the force and the development of the relationship of the Minister with that force, now in the light of what happened over this unfortunate incident, make it imperative that there should be a police authority or an independent body. At the moment, the day-to-day running of the force is conducted by the Commissioner, but there is a constant input from the Department of Justice, there is no doubt about that. The extent and nature of that input varies from time to time. It can be influenced by contemporary events and by the personalities that happen to be present in each place at a particular time.

While the day-to-day running of the force is the prerogative of the Commissioner, it would appear that the interventions that are made by the Department are based on the legal position that the Minister has overall responsibility. The difficulty is to decide, from time to time. what is day-to-day and what concerns the Minister's overall responsibility. There is a quite understandable and proper tendency on the part of the Department to take a deeper interest in the affairs of the force than overall responsibility would involve, in order to keep their Minister right. This tendency involves interference—that is not an ungracious word—in day-to-day matters. This is a relationship which can be difficult and has led to difficulties. Many of these difficulties would be obviated by the presence of a police authority, an authority that would be appointed and be manifestly free from political influence and would operate entirely without political considerations. I do not think the overall control that must remain with the Minister would be prejudiced, or diminished, by such a development; he would retain legislative and, above all, financial control.

At this stage coming to the end of this whole sordid episode, I would plead again with the Minister to reconsider his views on the merits of establishing a police authority. I will again express regret that the Government and the Minister treated Commissioner Garvey in the fashion in which they did. His record, from the time he joined the force until he was summarily dismissed from it, was without blemish. His many positive achievements do him credit, all designed to make the force better and more efficient and, consequently, to serve the public in a better way. It is regrettable in the extreme that he was treated in this way. The fact that he has been vindicated so far—more proceedings have yet to come—has highlighted the wrongness of what the Government have done. As far as he is concerned, in the public eye his reputation stands as high as it always did and he has been totally vindicated. I will conclude by again appealing to the Minister to consider what I have said as to the necessity of the State coming out of this matter with some credit. The only way that the State can do that now is by being generous towards the people whom it has unjustly and unlawfully treated.

I shall be very brief. I want to say that I am sorry that the Minister for Justice is not here because what I have to say relates to something that was discussed here last week. I understand that he may be in some difficulty and has other demands on his time. This is something that affects him in an assurance that he gave me here last week and about which I have since acquired some new information and I feel that I should put into the record of the House what I know and what the Minister said and perhaps get another opportunity at another stage to bring it to the Minister's attention directly.

I referred last week to an editorial that appeared in The Irish Times on 8 September 1977, in which the Government were accused of the monoeuvre of weaseling; that was described by that editorial as using newspapers to fly a kite or to sell a story to see how it would be received. The Irish Times said that in “non-attributable” conversations Fianna Fáil have recently, for example, tried to get newspapers to do for one of their Ministers what the Minister should do for himself, either by direct action of by persuasion. They were referring to a story that they said the Minister tried to fly, and that was the removal from office of the Commissioner. I put that to the Minister and in reply he said:

I hope the Senator will not think I am interrupting him when I say that if ever I have to ask a newspaper, whether it be The Irish Times, The Irish Press, the Irish Independent, The Limerick Leader or The Kerryman to do my job for me then I should not be in this House. That is putting it very clearly. I have asked nobody. I know nothing of it. I was not involved in any way...

What the Minister said there may have been literally true, but I cannot accept its entire truth. I believed that in substance it was, to say the least, misleading. I have learned in the past week that a couple of days before that editorial was written there was held a non-attributable press briefing by the head of the Government Information Services at which the head of the Government Information Services floated this story and asked the newspapers to write about it to see how it would be received—that the Commissioner was going to be removed from office. I expect that the head of the Government Information Services would not, without some authority, or without being asked to do so, hold such a press briefing. I would have assumed, in the ordinary course of events, that it would have been the Minister for Justice who would have briefed him, or discussed the matter with him beforehand. If the Minister, Deputy Collins, says that he knew nothing about it then I would accept it, because I cannot show otherwise. But if it is the case that the head of the Government Information Services, without authority from anybody, can go to newspapers and ask them to make reference, in a non-attributable story, to the Commissioner of the police force being about to be removed from office, then I think there is something very seriously wrong with a Government who allow that to happen.

I look forward to a future opportunity of discussing this matter with the Minister and getting his view on it. I am saying this because what the Minister for Justice said and what I said is already on the record of the House and it is only proper that it be completed. I would ask the Minister of State who is here to shed light on the matter, if he can at all; it is important, because we have been led to believe that the decision to remove Mr. Garvey was one that did not occur three or four months before he was actually removed from office. One way or another there is a point of great principle involved here. Either the head of the Government Information Services was briefed and requested to do this, or else he did it off his own bat. If he was requested, and requested by the Minister, the Minister has seriously misled this House. If the Minister did not brief him and the head of the Government Information Services did it on his own account, without authority, then I believe that that man is not fit to hold office. I believe that one way or the other there is a serious question involved here and the Members of this House are entitled to a full and frank reply.

If I may deal with the last point first, I am not aware of the allegations made by Senator Molony, but I would like to make it very clear that if he accepts, in logic, what the Minister for Justice says about his not being involved in any way in the setting up of this leading article in The Irirh Times, then he can take it as a corollary to that, as an extension to the Minister's absolute and emphatic denial, that, certainly, the head of the GIS did not hold such a press briefing. That appears to be the reality of that, because certainly the head of the GIS would not have held a press briefing unless he had the authority of the Minister for Justice. It is quite clear, in those circumstances, that the Senator is basing his argument on a false premise.

I am merely asking a question.

The Minister for Justice has already denied any knowledge of it and the Senator has very fairly accepted the Minister's denial. In the meantime, apparently, he discovered that the head of the GIS has now become involved since he made this accusation against the Minister for Justice on the last occasion. This type of thing could go on ad nauseam, and if I deny—and I have no grounds to deny—that the head of the GIS had anything to do with any such press briefing or that there was any such press briefing, on the next occasion the Senator will bring in some third party. I do not see why the Minister for Justice should have that hanging around his neck, or that the head of the Government Information Services would undertake to hold a press briefing, as described, without anybody's authority. I would respectfully suggest that these allegations are a figment, if not of the Senator's imagination, of somebody else's imagination—namely, the person who gave him this information. Of course, if you throw dirt of this nature, some of it sticks; there is no question about that; that is an unfortunate reality of public life.

Would the Minister undertake to look into it?

I would certainly not undertake to look into it. In conscience I could not. On Fifth Stage last week Senator Cooney raised the question of it being possible that a citizen who may have been imprisoned—I assume from the context that he is referring to someone who is convicted on a criminal charge—during the relevant 16-month period would have suffered an injustice at the hands of the State, by reason of the invalidity of Mr. McLaughlin's actions during that period. The Senator suggested that if any person were so aggrieved, consideration should be given to compensating him in whatever way might be appropriate. It would appear that what the Senator was advocating would, in practice, imply that the State should take the initiative in trying to have the sentence of some convicted criminal set aside on some legal ground which, in turn, depended entirely, even if indirectly, on the ground that Mr. McLaughlin's appointment was invalid.

Though the invalidity of Mr. McLaughlin's appointment could conceivably give a person a basis for making a legal argument in certain cases, it is clearly an issue wholly unrelated to the reliability of the actual evidence of guilt. On behalf of the Minister for Justice, I put it to the House that it is the community that would suffer if individuals succeeded in invalidating convictions on grounds that would have nothing to do with the reliability of the evidence. I suggest that it would be, not just an unnecessary initiative by the State, but a positive injustice to the community at large, if the State were to take the initiative in endeavouring to secure that a convicted criminal could escape the consequences of his conviction, and possibly even qualify for compensation, on grounds that had nothing to do with the trustworthiness of the evidence on which he was convicted.

What the Minister for Justice submitted to the House in presenting this Bill, and what I am now repeating on his behalf, is that the House, by passing this Bill, would simply be saying that, in so far as it is concerned, a person found guilty of crime on evidence that satisfied the courts beyond reasonable doubt should not now escape the consequences simply and solely because Mr. McLaughlin's appointment as Commissioner was invalid. I underline the point that I am not setting myself up, and that this House is not being asked to set itself up, as a judge of the evidence. The evidence we are speaking of has satisfied the court beyond reasonable doubt as to the person's guilt. If Senator Cooney were to consider a specific type of case, rather than looking at it in general terms, it would be unlikely that there would be any disagreement. What would be involved is that a person convicted by the courts of, for instance, armed robbery, or some other serious crime, somebody who perhaps was caught in the act, should be released or given compensation because of the invalidity of Mr. McLaughlin's appointment. Of course, if there is some convicted person who feels that he is entitled to have his conviction set aside on grounds connected with any act which is expressed to be invalidated by this Bill, it is open to him to raise the matter in court and he can even apply for legal aid, and, no doubt, the court will allow legal aid, if he has an arguable case. But I would have to make it clear that, as far as the Minister is concerned, the policy would be to resist and oppose in court, as far as possible, any such application for the setting aside of such a conviction or for compensation. The interests of the community require that the policy be adopted and maintained. I submit to the House that it, for its part, would certain be doing no injustice to anybody by approving of this Bill.

Question put and agreed to.
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