Local Loans Fund (Amendment) Bill, 1983 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

Minister for Finance (Mr. Dukes)

This Bill proposes to raise the statutory ceiling on total issues from the Local Loans Fund from its present level of £2,500 million to a new level of £3,500 million. Total issues to date are £2,300 million, leaving only £200 million available within the margin. At the present rate of issue this margin may be exhausted by late summer or early autumn of this year. It has therefore become necessary to raise the limit so as to make provision for future years.

Raising the limit on loan issues does not of itself have any implications for the size of allocations for the various services financed by the Local Loans Fund. These allocations are fixed annually by Government decision in the context of the Public Capital Programme. The Local Loans Fund merely provides a channel through which the approved allocations may be transmitted to the local authorities.

The Local Loans Fund was established in 1935 as a facility for providing loan capital to local authorities. The main services it finances are local authority housing and sanitary schemes. It also makes funds available for house purchase loans. The fund is also the channel for the Exchequer contribution to fire services, swimming pools, and itinerant settlement, as well as courthouses and harbour works. Until recent years loans were also provided from the fund for capital works at second level vocational schools and for certain categories of hospital. These services are now financed fully by direct grant through the Votes for Post-Primary Education and Health respectively.

Of the advances made annually from the fund, by far the biggest share goes to local authority housing and sanitary services. In 1982 total advances amounted to £386 million. Of this total £186 million was allocated to local authority housing and £82 million to water and sewerage schemes. The corresponding allocations in 1983 are £208 million and £97 million respectively, out of estimated total issues of £377 million.

Loans from the fund are repayable on an annuity basis. The normal repayment period is between 25 and 35 years, varying from service to service. In practice the Exchequer meets a very large proportion of the loan charges, principal and interest, on advances from the fund. Repayments on local authority housing loans are fully subsidised by the Exchequer and sanitary services loans attract subsidies of between 40 per cent and 60 per cent. In 1983 the subsidies for housing and sanitary service loan repayments amount to £128 million and £29 million respectively. Certain minor services are also subsidised fully or partially.

Members of the House will have noted that total estimated issues from the fund in 1983 are slightly down on the 1982 aggregate. This reduction is due to a shift in the relative weights of SDA loans and Housing Finance Agency loans in the State's mortgage finance programme and does not represent a reduction in State support for the services involved. House purchase loans — that is the SDA loans — are financed mainly from the Local Loans Fund, while the HFA obtains its funds directly from its own bond issues. The allocation for SDA loans and supplementary grants in the current year is £64 million, to be supplemented by an additional £16 million from local authorities' internal revenue, mainly from the sale of local authority houses. This represents a reduction on the £93.3 million provided in 1982, but this reduction is more than offset by the increase in the level of mortgage finance being provided by the Housing Finance Agency. The HFA made £15.6 million available last year, whereas this year's estimate stands at £50 million.

As I mentioned earlier, the Bill is simply an enabling measure providing the statutory machinery for channelling loan capital allocations to local authorities. The Local Loans Fund does not itself specify allocations for services. The limit on issues is raised from time to time as required. When the fund was established in 1935 the limit was fixed at £5 million. Over the years it has been increased 16 times. The last occasion was in 1980 when it was set at its present level of £2,500 million. I would expect that the new limit of £3,500 million should meet requirements over the next few years.

I recommend the Bill for the approval of the House.

Mr. M. O'Toole

I am glad to see the Minister for Finance back again. I will be putting some questions that relate to his Department in connection with housing loans and the limitation on them. I am glad the Minister is present because it is from his Department will spring all the finances necessary for the servicing of SDA loans and, indeed, other loans. I have no doubt that the Minister will answer some of the questions I will be putting later. There has been a considerable drop in the number of people being approved for loans over the last three years. Indeed, there is a necessity now to examine the income ceiling under which a married couple can qualify for an SDA loan. The limit is £7,000 and has been that figure for many years. We have heard of all the legislation that will be coming through to meet the requirements of the day and I suggest to the Minister that the £7,000 limit which is the aggregate for a man and his wife to qualify for an SDA loan is much out-dated. It behoves the Minister to raise that ceiling or ensure that the Minister for the Environment does so.

The Minister for Finance should provide the money for the servicing of applicants who are denied a loan because of that ceiling of £7,000. The number of loans approved in the year 1980 was in the region of 10,381. That dropped in 1981 to 8,971 and there was a further drop in 1982 to 7,595. That continuous drop in the number of people approved is because of the low income ceiling. I appeal to the Minister to consider that criticism which is running high in all local authorities at present. With the Minister for the Environment, the Minister for Finance should look at that with a view to increasing that ceiling to at least £10,000 or £12,000. That would bring in a number of people who wish to choose their own type of house, look after their own financing and build their own home. The Minister is debarring people from doing that with the income ceiling.

We have heard talk about the £14,000 loan. That also is out of date because the value of houses has increased considerably between 1980 and 1982. The value of houses serviced by the SDA loans was £20,903 in 1980 and that rose to £26,300 in 1982. That has widened the gap as between the SDA loan of £14,000 and the amount required to finance the building of one's home. A considerable gap has occurred as a result of inflation and the rise in the cost of housing. We now require something in the region of £12,300 to bridge that gap between £14,000 and £26,300. That also is out-dated and an additional increase in SDA loans is necessary so that people can build their houses. The bridging loan they have to get from a bank is at a very high premium. In some cases the building of a house can take between 12 and 18 months depending on the type of contractor and on the family who choose to build their own house. There is a long time span from the date of application until the time one gets the £14,000 loan and it is necessary to get a bridging loan to continue the building or all will come to a standstill. The Minister should look at that area of increasing the loan. I know his answer will be that there is a Housing Finance Agency loan and people can receive up to £22,000 while selected local government applicants can get in the region of £26,000. I have read a document from the Housing Finance Agency and it appalled me. Over a period of years children of those who avail of loans from that agency will have paid something in the region of £250,000 on a £26,000 loan. I referred to that in the Seanad and I was not contradicted. The appalling document from the Housing Finance Agency tries to justify the use of a loan from that agency. In County Mayo the number approved about a month ago was just five. I have tried to discourage people from applying for this loan because I do not think it is attractive.

The document submitted by the Housing Finance Agency is to try to encourage people to apply for these loans. In the twenty-fifth year of a £20,000 loan one will be paying in the region of £915 per month according to their figures. That is a disgraceful situation. In the first year of the loan the monthly payment is £112 but there is a continuous rise from that amount to £915 in the twenty-fifth year.

There are other aspects of that loan which I do not agree with. They are not realistic. It is a loan designed for a man who is trying to move out as fast as he can get his house built and leave somebody else to carry the can in the future. I appeal to the Minister to increase the SDA loan, a very attractive and popular loan. I welcome the Bill in that it is an enabling piece of legislation to provide additional moneys for local authorities but the income ceiling of £7,000 and the amount of loan that can be obtained, £14,000, are not adequate to meet the requirements of the day. They are out-dated and anything the Minister can do to increase the income ceiling and increase the amount of the loans would be welcome. Young couples intending to get married today and anxious to avail of this loan would be delighted with this news. The Minister, when replying, should deal with the income ceiling and the loan of £14,000.

Mr. O'Leary

This Bill is an enabling one to allow the continued operation of the Local Loans Fund when its present limit of £2,500 million has been exceeded during the course of this financial year. It is because of that and the underlying support which we have pleasure in giving the policies being pursued by the Government that I am glad to support the Second Stage of the Bill.

It is a difficult type of Bill to deal with on Second Stage. That difficulty is shared by the Minister and the Fianna Fáil spokesman because of the detail into which one can go in regard to the actual details of the use to which the money is put. It is very difficult to say what function the Department of Finance have in that area and what function the Department of the Environment have in raising the various limits. I have considerable sympathy with many of the points made by the Fianna Fáil spokesman in this regard. There are appropriate times to consider some of the more general issues involved rather than just the particular issues. A number of them have been referred to by the Opposition spokesman and it is fair that they should be responded to and that one or two thoughts of our own should be added so that the Minister gets a flavour of the views of the House with regard to these matters.

There is no doubt that the most popular scheme operated by any Government was the SDA loan scheme. Of course, there is a good reason for that, it is great value for money. By and large over the years those people who have borrowed under the SDA scheme have got great value for money. That is true in respect of people who were fortunate enough to borrow under the SDA scheme, through the auspices of the Local Loans Fund, at times when interest rates were low. It is because of the fixed nature of the commitment being entered into by those who take up the SDA loans that they are fortunate in that regard. There are many people who are fortunate enough to have money at 3 per cent, 4 per cent or 5 per cent. It is obvious that the fixed nature of the commitment which people enter into is very attractive. When interest rates are high and, in particular, should the SDA interest rate reflect the real rate of interest being paid by the Government, then loans under that scheme would be considerably less attractive. There lies the problem. The expansion of the scheme, and the absorption of a greater percentage of the mortgage market by the Government, must inevitably mean dearer loans for those who are borrowing under that scheme. The attractions of the SDA scheme would be considerably reduced particularly when one bears in mind that borrowings made now at a fixed rate of interest, at a relatively high rate of interest, will not reduce in years to come when and if inflation reduces and interest rates reduce accordingly. Those borrowing large amounts of money now at the present rates of interest might find themselves at a relative disadvantage in years to come if inflation and, consequently, interest rates fall.

I confidently expect that not only in Ireland but throughout the western world interest rates will fall dramatically over the next few years. Inflation rates have already fallen in most countries. They are falling very rapidly here at the moment. In the United Kingdom, for instance, where statistics are produced on a monthly basis, they have shown the result of their internal policies but, more importantly, of the international monetary situation. Inflation has dropped dramatically, but interest rates have not dropped as dramatically. As a result of that a very severe interest rate is payable in respect of borrowings in low inflation countries.

As we move progressively from a relatively high inflation rate to a lower inflation rate we will find a situation where those who have borrowed at a fixed interest rate will be very severely dealt with. If there was no inflation rate here over the next three or four years, or only inflation of 3, 4 or 5 per cent, those who borrowed money at 12 per cent will be paying a very substantial rate of real interest. That is where the problem arises with regard to expansion of the SDA loan scheme. The Housing Finance Agency being promoted by the Government, as a result of their last and present terms of office, as Senator O'Toole said, has been largely misunderstood. If there is no inflation there is no reason why repayments under the Housing Finance Agency should increase.

It is only because inflation has been a permanent feature of our economy over the last few decades that the problems arise whereby an increase is to be expected in respect of repayments people will make under a Housing Finance Agency loan in years to come. It is unnecessarily frightening to tell people that they will be paying a certain substantial sum of money in 25 years time unless one takes into account the inflation that has taken place in the meantime. Nobody minds paying a substantial amount of money if, as a result of inflation or as a result of progress to increase income, the average level of income has been increased substantially. A simple pointing out of what one would pay to the Housing Finance Agency after a period of 20 years does not tell the full story. The attractions of this kind of a loan for people who otherwise are not in a position at all to buy their own property are considerable.

The Local Loans Fund, of course, does more than provide money for house loans. A substantial portion of the money goes towards the provision of sanitary services throughout the country. It is fair to say that the amount of money which has been devoted to the increased provision of sanitary services in the Dublin area is not attractive to those coming from my part of the country and those from outside the greater Dublin area. We do not find the growth of population of Dublin attractive. It is economically over-balancing the country towards the eastern seaboard and towards the greater Dublin area, in particular.

Many of the services provided in the Dublin area are as a result of a strategic policy which is not to have any policy at all. Strategic planning has been to provide the services not where we think they should be provided but where a demand arises because of some short-term local whim. The problem that has arisen with regard to that in Dublin is that too much of the resources of the country have gone into providing sanitary accommodation for the expansion of the Dublin area at its periphery.

Too little of our attention and strategic thought have been devoted to the solution of the problem of what is being done to the inner heart of that city and indeed the inner heart of the city of Cork where I come from. Much of our strategic thought on the amount of money for sanitation accommodation and where it should be spent needs to follow on a fundamental re-examination of where we want the people to live in years to come.

Our policy should be directed towards a prosperous Dublin and a stable society within the greater Dublin area but not towards a situation where the young people, the most intelligent and the most articulate people, are being drawn from the countryside to the greater Dublin area. That is a bad thing and something which we should minimise. We will never eliminate it because the way of the modern world is that people are drawn towards the metropolitan areas. The Local Loans Fund is an appropriate instrument and the Minister for Finance is the appropriate person to take the strategic decisions which are necessary to ensure the balanced growth of the country through the allocation of sanitary service funds in a fashion which will lead to a balanced and healthy society. The physical planning aspect of the allocation of money to local authorities has not received the proper attention not only from the Minister for Finance but from the Government as a whole. It should be understood that such a fundamental reappraisal of where we are going in this country is an essential part of the job of Government over the next few years. Accepting that nothing is ever exactly as one wants it to be the proposal to raise the level from £2,500 million to £3,500 million should have our support. It has the support of the Fine Gael Members on this side of the House.

Mr. Smith

I would like to welcome this Bill. The only regret I have is that while we seem to keep on increasing the amount of money which can be diverted, in this instance to the local authorities, the actual outturn in terms of housing development and in terms of sanitary facilities as referred to by Senator O'Leary is that these schemes, in effect, are slowing down quite considerably. I am worried that in making provision for financial contributions of this order in some way we are not able to get the benefit for the total community that, in fact, we should.

Most of the points in relation to the housing area have already been amplified. However, I would like to re-emphasise one or two of those points. It is quite clear that the Government thinking is to move away from the concept of the SDA loan in favour of the Housing Finance Agency. I want to make it clear that I am not against the Housing Finance Agency because, for a great number of couples, although not an ideal solution, it certainly is a way which enables them to provide homes for themselves. I shudder at the thought that for the next few years we would develop that agency at the expense of what traditionally has been the bulwark of private housing development in most of our counties as far as many young couples in the middle to lower income groups were concerned.

Senator O'Leary makes the point that this scheme will be a very worthwhile scheme if we have no inflation. Even he, at his most optimistic best, could not be too convincing that we were certain to have that kind of situation. Therefore, in the initial stages there is the attraction to young couples to move towards the Housing Finance Agency scheme for the provision of loans. When people are beginning to build a house and when they look at the overall costs obviously these considerations come into their heads. Building houses will always be a difficult job. Families will always be stretched to the last in trying to provide for their needs and for the additional needs that accrue when they are trying to build a house.

There is no soft option, regardless of who is in power or regardless of what scheme is in existence. In general terms, to shift the finance which would normally be provided for SDA loans into this scheme on a large scale — I want to emphasise that it is important that we have that particular scheme for certain types of situations — and to unduly weigh the contributions towards it at the expense of the traditional scheme would be a retrograde step.

I emphasise the points made by Senator O'Toole and ask the Minister for Finance to see if it would be possible in the near future to increase the income limits and the ceiling of the loans to enable the many couples, who would normally benefit under the scheme and who are now deprived of it, to proceed. As he is probably well aware, the drop in the interest in that scheme is in the order of one-third over the past couple of years. That is quite substantial. In most cases in the past it has probably taken about two or three years before the limits were increased. I remember between 1974 and 1977, and again between 1978 and 1981, roughly a three-year period elapsed before the limits were increased. The time is now ripe to do it.

We would welcome any indication from the Minister about the Government's thinking in this area. If that will not be the position will he confirm that the shift away from that scheme and the emphasis on the Housing Finance Agency is to be, more or less, the pillar of their housing programme in the private development area? Should that be so we would like to have the opportunity to debate ways and means of ensuring that that scheme could be improved. Many couples are unaware of the difficulties that can arise if they want to dispose of their houses on the open market subsequent to loans being provided under that scheme. There are many other difficulties on the legal side in relation to deed of charge and other detailed matters and if the Government are proposing to proceed on those lines in general terms we certainly would like to have some input into the organisation of a more favourable scheme and one which would eliminate some of the present difficulties that can evolve and certainly will evolve over the years. With these few comments I would like to welcome the Bill. It will have the support of Fianna Fáil.

Mr. Cregan

Like the other Senators, I welcome the Bill. I have just a few comments in regard to the SDA loans and the Housing Finance Agency. Like Senator O'Toole, I feel certain questions must be asked — whether we are doing enough and are we considering enough the people who are looking for SDA loans? I am aware that the amount of money that has been allocated to local authority housing is £186 million this year. Do we put enough emphasis on whether we should be doing more with that money?

I mentioned before in the Seanad that people who are on the local authority housing lists throughout the country for more than 12 months, and have a family of three, are in fact entitled to £18,000 with the SDA loans. Senator O'Toole is right. You will not get accommodation for that. How do we bring about a situation where we do not have to say to these people that we will give them a home costing in the region of £30,000, between land purchase, and all services as well as building when it is going to cost the local authority in the region of £30,000 to provide that home? I feel we should bring about a situation in which people who are on housing lists with an SDA loan or, indeed, a Housing Finance Agency loan, could be financed to do the rest with some form of grant. I appreciate that there is a £3,000 grant over five years given to first time buyers but I do not think we are doing enough about pushing people into doing something for themselves.

If the local authority in Cork spent something in the region of £10.6 million last year to provide homes, we would build something like 300 homes for that and we would accommodate something in the region of 400 families. To provide that accordingly it is something like £24,000 to £26,000 per family for 300 houses. I appreciate that there are many people looking for local authority accommodation who would not be able to accommodate themselves but we are all aware that there are some people who could accommodate themselves with a little bit of help but I do not think that help is forthcoming.

I do not see any reason why we should not be seen to be doing it. If, for instance, £2 million of the £10.8 million that was spent in Cork last year was given to the local authority for the allocation of grants to people who are on the housing list this would help them to provide homes themselves. If we said we were prepared to give them £4,000 or £5,000 per head and not give them local authority housing, and with the Housing Finance Agency, would it not be a much better idea? The facts are that these people cannot provide accommodation for themselves, not because of £18,000 or £20,000 but because of £3,000 or £4,000 extra that they cannot provide themselves. We should direct our attention to how this can be done.

I do not see any reason why this should not be done. More consideration should be given to the concept of local authorities considering for themselves the applicants they have on their lists. If they feel that with some bit of help these people can do it for themselves then the help should be given.

I do not see any reason why we should be giving somebody a house worth £30,000 at least in the Cork area when with a grant of £3,000, £4,000 or even £5,000 the State would save £25,000 and the person would have his own loan. Unfortunately the impression I get is that if you mention these things either at local level or at national level people are not prepared to take too much notice because it interferes with their system or their business formula.

More emphasis should be put on this. I do not understand why it is not being done especially when we want to get more for our money. I do not want to give the impression that I am talking about people who cannot accommodate themselves. For example, on the housing list in my local authority there are people with one or two children who are earning in the region of £8,000 to £9,000 a year, yet they must be considered for accommodation because they have a family. I do not see any reason why we should not provide them with a hand-out in order to eliminate them from our housing list. I am not saying that every Tom, Dick and Harry should be considered but I do not see any reason why we should not consider such a move.

I am conscious that, unfortunately, there are people who are looking for the Housing Finance Agency loan and, like Senator O'Toole, I feel certain questions can be asked. I am glad to say that in our local authority area a lot of people seem to be looking for loans. The pay back on these loans is 18 per cent of the gross earnings all the time. If you are not earning you will not be paying. If you earn £300 a week in ten years time — I hope inflation will slow down during that period — you will still only be paying 18 per cent of your gross earnings. Nobody is being stifled. For far too long people, and indeed building societies, have brought about situations in our society where young couples were in such a state paying back mortgage loans that they found it very hard to live.

Another point which has been brought to my notice a number of times, particularly in regard to people who have tried to get housing loans, is that 90 per cent of the agency loan is available only to the person applying. It is not like the SDA loan where you get 98 per cent of it. It is unfortunate that we should not be seen to be changing that. Representations about this have been made to the board. There are certain rules and I appreciate that.

I would like to ask the Minister to consider if it is at all possible to provide the 98 per cent to assist people to provide houses for themselves. If you are looking for a loan of £22,000 and you only get £20,000, that £2,000 can stop you from doing something for yourself. That is the area where people are being smothered. Every assistance should be given and we are not doing that. In these recessionary times people have been brought into a situation where they cannot pay back their building society loans. There are many people, unfortunately, in this area who are finding it very tough and are in a situation where the building society are now bringing them to court because of non-payment of loans, as they are too high. The agency is not prepared to assist in this area. These people will be coming back again to local authorities looking for housing costing in the region of £30,000 per family.

Is it not possible to broaden the agency to assist these people? That is not so at the moment. They are not prepared to consider this area. This is unfortunate because we have unfortunate people who have just been caught up in building societies, for whom I have no respect. I make no apologies for saying this. Building societies should be considering a scheme like that of the HFA for such people. I am sure they would give it some consideration. Indeed I know they are well able to provide the same scheme with the money they are collecting. I do not see any reason why they should not do it.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is going a little outside the Bill.

Mr. Cregan

I appreciate that.

An Cathaoirleach

The Housing Finance Agency is a bit far away from the Bill. I was lenient enough with everybody. When the Senator talks about building societies he is getting very far away from the Bill.

Mr. Cregan

I appreciate that. I would like to finish by saying that the SDA loan of £14,000 is a little bit low for the ordinary person applying for it. The agency loan covers it. It is only right and proper that we should push more for the agency loan because of the situation with the SDA loans at this particular time. I welcome the Bill and I am glad to see that the Minister is prepared to broaden out a little bit and indeed is explaining in the Bill certain things that we were not really aware of. I hope that consideration will be given to the diversification of more money to people to do something for themselves. I do not think enough has been done in that area.

Minister for Finance (Mr. Dukes)

I would, first of all, like to say that the concern expressed by Members of the House about policy in general and about the particular problems of SDA loans and the Housing Finance Agency are ones which are fairly widely shared. While they are not strictly relevant to the provisions of this Bill, I would, nevertheless, say that the concerns that have been expressed are ones that require examination within the framework of our overall housing policy.

It is easy to make the point — I know we have all made it individually with ordinary people who are looking for loans and in other fora — that it is difficult for a number of people who would like to provide their own houses for themselves actually to do so because there must necessarily be a limit on the kind of schemes that are in operation and there must unfortunately and equally necessarily be a limit on the total amount of funding available. It has been suggested that we should give consideration to increasing the income limit and the overall loan limit for SDA loans, the £7,000 income limit that is there and the £14,000 limit on the loans, which is, as has been pointed out, £18,000 in particular cases.

There are some other considerations that need to be taken into account. The main one in my view is the capacity of the people involved to make the repayments. We have two different types of cases in the SDA loan and the Housing Finance Agency loan. It is always one of my concerns, when people approach me about a discussion on their application for an SDA loan, to make sure to put forward to them just what is involved in making the repayments. I am sure Senator O'Toole will agree with me that there are many cases in which it would be downright mischevious to encourage people to go forward with an application because they would not be able to meet the kind of repayments that would be required given their family circumstances. Obviously there is a great difference between the situation of a married couple with no children and an income of £7,000 applying for an SDA loan and the position of a married couple with an income of £7,000 and four or five children making an application for the same kind of loan. We will not necessarily solve all the problems by raising limits all round and making access to money easier because the people who borrow the money will have to repay it under whatever scheme they opt for.

Similar considerations would, of course, apply globally to the Housing Finance Agency loan although there is specific provision in the scheme which is designed to alleviate the burden of interest repayments generally in the early years of the loan and to put that back to the later years. That scheme was devised for a particular purpose. It meets a particular need of a group of people who find themselves in the situation where they are just over the limit of eligibility for an SDA loan and who, before the Housing Finance Agency scheme came into operation, really had no option that they could take up if they were still anxious to provide themselves with houses.

Those are considerations we will have to bear in mind when looking at the conditions that apply to the schemes generally. Without wishing to avoid a discussion I would say that a more detailed examination of those issues would be more appropriate perhaps to the debate on the Environment Estimate. Indeed, there are other occasions when a discussion of that kind can take place.

On the general question of the provision of finance for housing we should not discuss these matters as if the total allocation for SDA loans and the total available for Housing Finance Agency loans were the only sources of finance, or indeed were the only sources of finance for individuals who are building their houses. We have the mortgage interest subsidy and the new house grants which apply also. On an occasion when we do have a detailed discussion of policy in relation to these areas we should tie all of those elements together and see whether the particular combination of measures we have is really the best adapted package we can think of for the needs of the people about whom we are talking.

Members are aware that there are numbers of local authorities who encourage people who apply for local authority rented accommodation to consider whether or not they would be able, with the assistance of SDA loans or HFA loans, to buy their own houses. I know, from my own experience and from that of colleagues all around the country, that there are, in every case, numbers of people who when the question is put to them in that way and think about it find they can afford to buy their own houses even given the strictures now in existence in relation to the total availability of finance.

I do not know whether I should go any further than that on these issues, except to say that I would welcome the opportunity of having a more detailed debate on these issues and of assuring Senators that the points raised are ones which will be taken into consideration. They will be particularly pertinent points when we come to drawing up the Public Capital Programme for 1984. I am sure that the points that have been made will be brought forward and fully considered in that connection.

As far as the Bill itself is concerned, I do not think any specific points were made in relation to its provisions which would require a particular reply. I would express my appreciation to Senators for their understanding and their readiness to support the provisions of this Bill which is an enabling one and which, of itself, will not have any direct influence on the shape of the schemes it is designed to finance.

Mrs. Honan

Seeing that the atmosphere is so lovely here at present I should say that I am delighted that the Minister has suggested that we should talk about all housing right across the board. Perhaps another Minister might tell him that that was not his business but seeing that he is the Minister in charge of money, I suppose it is his business. All of us in local authorities find that there is a group of people who require houses and whom we try to encourage to stay off the local authority housing lists. They may not have the necessary finance to buy a posh house up the road. Therefore, I welcome the Minister's attitude that we might discuss this again. All of us serving in local government encourage people to come off the housing lists which are endless. I say this in support of my colleague, Senator Cregan from Cork.

Question put and agreed to.

Agreed to take remaining Stages today.

Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and ordered to be returned to the Dáil.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 15 Jun 1983

Local Loans Fund (Amendment) Bill, 1983 [ Certified Money Bill ]: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Jun 1983