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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Dec 1984

Vol. 106 No. 5

Health Services Cutbacks: Motion (Resumed).

Debate resumed on the following motion:
That Seanad Éireann condemns the cutbacks in the Health Services and calls upon the Minister for Health to ensure that there will be no reduction in the level and quality of general health care.
—(Senator Fallon).

When I moved the adjournment of this debate last week I was disputing the accuracy of the motion we were debating. I was questioning the implication in that motion that there were serious or damaging cutbacks in the financial support being made available by the Government to the health services. These points were being made from the other side of the House. I was basing my argument on the fact that the amount of Government finance being made available to the health services has been increased in the present year and that the commitment under the national plan over the next three years is substantially to increase the amount of finance being made available to health care and services and that because of that it was inaccurate to suggest or imply that there was a cutback in the health services or in the amount of finance being made available for the health services. It was based on that increased financial commitment by the Government that I was making the argument that the motion in itself was inaccurate.

I quoted some figures last week. The contribution from central funds to the health services in 1984 was £968 million. Under the terms of the national plan it is proposed that that figure be increased by substantial steps each year up to 1987 to a figure of £1,123 million. That represents an increase of almost £140 million over the period. How could such an increase rationally be described as a cutback?

I also stated that at a time of scarce financial resources I saw every merit in any system that encouraged health boards or any other organisation or institution in receipt of State funds to measure the value of their activities and to deploy effectively the resources available to them to eliminate any waste that was occurring in their area of operation. In general terms I am not satisfied that such an exercise has been engaged in by health boards, at least up to now. Statements from some health board executives were quoted here last week. It is the usual about of moanings coming from any organisation that is told its performance can be improved and that there is room within its activities for the better deployment of resources or the better servicing of the activities it is engaged in. These moans are to be expected. I outlined one case in relation to my own county where I objected to the tactics being used by the Mid-Western Health Board to extract finance from the Government by using the opening of one hospital as being dependent on the closing of another very necessary one.

I am confident that the Minister and the Government are fully aware of the needs of the health services and health care in Ireland and that the commitment they have expressed in the national plan is there to ensure that the fullest possible resources will be made available for health care and services. Because of the points I raised today and last week, I believe the motion is inaccurate, it is not based on sustainable facts and it may cause fear and concern amongst sections of our people who are dependent on health care and services and that is unjustified.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Minister of State at the Department of Health.

On a point of order, it is unfair that the Minister should take up time that should be allocated to us at this stage when we have lost almost 18 minutes of our time on this motion. I would suggest to the Leader of the House that as a matter of fairness the Minister should not take the time allocated to the other side of the House on this issue. We have sacrificed 18 minutes of our time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We are not losing any time. The Chair has still given the hour-and-a-half. Any Minister in this House has the constitutional right to speak once he indicates to the Chair when he wants to come in.

He should understand that we yielded some of our time and that he should not take up our time.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If you would resume your seat——

The Senator has not yielded any time to anybody. You will have the same amount of time available to discuss your motion. You were complaining this morning that the Minister was not here. He is now here and going to contribute. When he contributes you can speak.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

If you would resume your seat we could continue.

It is appropriate to have the record right.

(Interruptions.)

I propose in the first place to say a few words about the resources which will be available for health services this year and in the period to 1987 and on the planning framework for the health services which is contained in the National plan.

As regards the current year the position is that no extra funds can be provided for health services by way of a Supplementary Estimate. This situation cannot be changed.

With regard to future years the non-capital provision for 1985 will be £1,019 million. The provision for 1986 will be £1,078 million and the provision for 1987 will be £1,123 million. The expenditure by health agencies cannot exceed the levels which these allocations will support. These are substantial expenditure levels bearing in mind that in 1973/74 net non-capital expenditure on health services amounted to about £143 million, representing about 5.2 per cent of GNP. In the current year expenditure is estimated at £1,087 million, representing about 7.5 per cent of GNP. In other words, relative to our national wealth, expressed by GNP we are spending almost 50 per cent more in real terms on day to day health services provision now than we were spending ten years ago.

One important advantage in the present situation as compared with previous years is that we know with certainty what resources will be available up to and including 1987. Despite inherent difficulties this is certainly a step forward in the advance planning process.

This has undoubtedly been a difficult year as regards the management and provision of health services. In the aftermath of a decade and more which had witnessed a steady, sustained and unparalleled growth in the level of financial and personnel resources made available to the health services, the urgent need to control the levels of public expenditure has meant that the resources available to the health services have had to be limited, in line with the overall budgetary limits on public expenditure.

It would be unrealistic to expect that in a situation which called for curbs in the growth of public expenditure generally, the health services which absorb almost 20 per cent of overall public expenditure could be exempted from the requirement to secure reductions in costs. The situation required immediate action to identify and implement measures to secure alignment of expenditure with allocation levels. I am glad to say that in general health agencies responded in a most co-operative way and, by various strategies, succeeded in reducing costs substantially.

Despite the efforts of the various health agencies, however, it now seems likely that a number of health agencies will exceed their 1984 allocations. The outlook for 1985 would be considerably improved if overruns in 1984 could be eliminated or minimised. Clearly there is still some way to go before expenditure is brought into line with what can be afforded and, to do that, it is clear that all concerned will have to work together in a more planned, purposeful and coordinated way.

Of course the application of restraint to any programme of health expenditure is a difficult process to carry through, particularly so when the need for constraint follows after a period of steady, sustained growth in expenditure and personnel as has been the experience in the health services. The motion before the House perhaps unwittingly highlights the dilemma inherent in attempting to satisfy an insatiable demand for yet more and more increasingly cost intensive services while at the same time grappling with the reality of cash limits and financial boundaries in the real world. The reality of financial boundaries must be faced. Options have to be selected and real choices have to be made.

It is strange that some wish us to increase health expenditure in cash terms ad infinitum, with little or no regard to the taxation resources base from which services must at the end of the day be funded. The major problem inherent in the constantly escalating cost of delivery of any given volume of health services is one that simply must be faced, tackled and, if possible, overcome. Although spending on health services, in real terms, has roughly doubled in the last decade or so, no one will seriously attempt to argue that the population are twice as healthy now as they were at the beginning of the decade. Senator Robb correctly pointed out that it does not follow that an increase in the resources provided for health care will result in a healthier people. This and the absolutely essential overall need to control public expenditure within a planned framework impelled the Government to include in the national plan specific allocations for health services for each of the years 1985 to 1987 as well as certain decisions as regards where costs should be reduced and some planning guidelines.

There are three points stressed in the plan in relation to approach and attitudes which are worth mentioning:

(i) First, wherever possible and justifiable, Government assistance in the social area should become more specific and more carefully aimed at, and delivered to, the poor and underprivileged — those in need — instead of using generalised measures which provide help to the better-off, who do not need it, as well as to the poor. (Para. 5.14).

(ii) Second, all possible measures must be taken to increase the efficiency and cost-effectiveness of the administration of the social services. (Para. 5.15).

(iii) Third, it is important that everyone in the community — whether those in the public sector administering the social services, or the recipients of the services, or all taxpayers financing the services — should be prepared to accept changes over the years. The needs of the country have changed greatly in the last decade so that the range of social services and the way in which they are provided must also change. We must all be prepared to accept a reduction in, and even abandonment of, established services and structures which are no longer appropriate to current needs or requirements, so as to enable an efficient and streamlined system to provide economically for the needs of the future. (Para. 5.16).

In relation to the health services, a number of tasks have been highlighted. These might be summarised as follows:

(i) Promote health (a task which involves many Departments and agencies) and prevent illness. (Para. 5.34).

— I might point out that already the Government have provided tangible evidence of their intention to develop health promotional campaigns by allocating an extra £½ million to the Health Education Bureau in 1985 —

(ii) Wherever possible (provided it is cost-effective) provide services on a community or out-patient basis; in the medium to long-term bring about a redistribution away from institutional services. (Paras. 5.35-5.37).

(iii) Make necessary in-patient care available to all; improve efficiency and cost-effectiveness by closures of outmoded or non-essential facilities and by improvement of information systems. (Para. 5.38).

(iv) Maintain a range of care and support (welfare) services, with particular reference to children at risk, low income groups not availing of services, and the disabled. (Para. 5.39).

(v) Continue to improve efficiency. (Paras. 5.45-5.48).

We must also take account of the objectives and targets which have arisen or will arise out of recent or pending reviews of aspects of the health services, for example:

— review of organisations of community care;

— report of working party on GMS;

— review of psychiatric services;

— review of mental handicap services;

— implementation of the Green Paper on the Disabled;

— review of the public health nursing service;

— implementation of systems policy and programme;

— implementation of Children and Adoption Bills.

These reviews will lead to a more rational and effective use of resources.

As I have already mentioned, the revenue Exchequer allocations for each of the three years have been determined at £1,019 million in 1985, £1,078 million in 1986 and £1,123 million in 1987. The expenditure on health services must be aligned with these allocations. The allocations take into account the specific measures incorporated in the national plan and the Government decisions associated with it. The main features include the following:

(i) Specific decisions in relation to pay budgets.

(ii) Any excess expenditure over budget in 1984, or, indeed, subsequent years, must be absorbed.

(iii) Private and semi-private in-patient charges will be increased to realise about £4.6 million additional income in 1985.

(iv) A contribution of about £1.4 million in 1985 is to be secured from hospital consultants in respect of the use of public facilities for private practice.

(v) Savings on drugs expenditure in the GMS of £2 million are to be achieved in 1985.

(vi) The Government have decided that, throughout 1985, the arrangements where by two-third of vacancies occuring in the Civil Service — excluding vacancies arising from career breaks — are held open will continue in force and that measures at least equivalent in effect in terms of the numbers of posts, which must remain unfilled and/or their pay costs, are to be applied in health agencies.

In spite of the constraints affecting public spending generally the Government have allocated funds for the following specific purpose in the health services:

—a sum of £2.5 million has been set aside in each of the three years for improvements in community services; as I have already mentioned £½ million of this is being made available in 1985 to the Health Education Bureau for health promotion purposes;

—a similar provision has been made to enable a limited number of new units of accommodation to be commissioned.

I am under no illusions as to the magnitude of the task which we face. If there were not any overruns in 1984 our task would be considerably easier. The position in respect of the two subsequent years will not be quite so difficult provived the budget allocations for 1985 are adhered to in full.

We obviously need to have a clear strategy, a detailed plan, and arrangements for implementation which will be capable of being closely monitored and adapted, as circumstances require.

In this regard, every major health agency has been requested to formulate a comprehensive plan setting out in detail the precise actions which the management of that agency feels will have to be taken in order to ensure that the agency concerned will firstly live within the framework of its financial allocation and that, secondly, the local plan prepared by individual agencies reflects the general philosophy and intent and specific decisions of the national plan. This will place a much greater emphasis on the managerial capacity of those who are charged with administering and managing the health services at local level. There have been some disparaging remarks made about the emphasis that the Minister has placed on the responsibility of health boards in particular to manage their services effectively and efficiently within the framework of the financial allocations made available. These criticisms overlook the fact that the delegation of very substantial responsibilities to the health boards was one of the foundation stones of the regionalisation structure which was established in 1970.

Obviously in drawing up their action plans, health agencies will be examining all areas of expenditure in order to identify opportunities for reducing costs. Some of the obvious areas which must be looked at include, reducing the level of admissions to hospitals and institutions. A more rigorous admission and casualty department policy is needed in general hospitals to ensure that patients who can be treated in the community are not admitted to or treated in hospitals.

Secondly, surplus institutional facilities should be identified and closed. This is a very difficult issue. But it would be foolish to allow the quality of service in essential facilities to be threatened while resources are wasted in maintaining facilities that can well be done without.

Thirdly, careful and detailed consideration should be given to changes in the role/use of certain in-patient facilities. A number of approaches could be envisaged under this heading. Indeed, when the Minister for Health recently met, in County Kildare, the chairmen and the chief executive officers of health boards and indicated some of the things that I am now going to mention, they were, of course, used for political purposes at local level by a certain number of chairmen who were there. Various combinations of the following actions might be taken:

(i) reduce the number of seven-day in-patient beds;

(ii) reduce seven-day beds to five-day beds;

What we mean by that is: why keep a patient in hospital over the week-end if he is due for discharge and could be examined on Friday and allowed home?

(iii) increase use of out-patient facilities;

(iv) convert small hospital to health centre/hostel/day activity centre;

(v) redeploy or retrain staff for work in their existing institution or in another institution or in the community.

Senator Honan in the course of her remarks ridiculed the notion of five-day beds. The point is that all beds need not be manned on a seven-day, 24-hour a day basis, because many patients can be dealt with to finality within a period of five days. I have previously elaborated on that.

Fourthly, we have to reduce expenditure on pay. The actions taken in relation to the closure or change of use of hospitals could contribute under this heading. In addition, action could be taken under various other combinations. For example, we need to examine very carefully the extent to which we can:

(i) Maximise non-filling of vacant posts, consistent with maintenance of agreed standards of service.

(ii) Reduce locum cover. Prima facie, there are wide variations between boards in the extent to which savings are being achieved under this heading.

(iii) Restructure rosters to improve efficiency. There is insufficient information available to enable an assessment to be made of the potential savings under this heading. However, it is an option that should be quickly examined and the implications of change fully assessed.

(iv) Introduce permanent, part time staff. This would enable a more flexible approach to rostering and would enable staff to be concentrated on the work at the busiest times. This suggestion is already being examined in the Department as an alternative to widespread job sharing.

(v) Reduce the volume of premium pay. The key question is to what extent we can run our hospital services on a five or six day week basis. The rostering of staffs on Sunday is particularly expensive.

In the area of improving efficiency the Department of Health, with the cooperation of health agencies, have already carried out a number of studies. In the general hospital sector these have ranged over purchasing, heating/lighting, housekeeping and transport. Further cost efficiency studies are now being undertaken in the area of hospital admissions policy, the excessive use of hospital laboratory services and, arising from these studies, an examination is underway into the potential of five day wards and indeed day-beds as a real alternative to traditional practice for the many persons who do not require total continuous hospitalisation but yet who find themselves subject to long and inconvenient stays in hospital at present.

These new initiatives are not an academic exercise. The findings which emerge will be of considerable significance for the future of the services. Already, useful and practical recommendations have emerged from these types of studies and have been communicated to the executive agencies in terms of principles of good practice.

In the course of the debate reference was made to the disparity between costs in similar hospitals. In the area of comparative costing the Department have made available to various hospitals data as to how they compare with similar hospitals as regards costs and prices etc. This type of information will — I hope — help agencies to identify particular areas of weakness in their own operations as regards financial performance. It is also intended to develop and to refine these comparative cost data as an integral part of the accelerated movement towards greater value for money in the health services.

It is absolutely essential, in addition, that there be readily available detailed information and data on the financial consequences of decisions taken by the medical profession. We need to identify clearly the expenditure involved in treating individual patients and specified categories of patient, categorised by specialty or otherwise.

The new management information systems currently coming on stream, will be extremely useful in this regard by providing ample opportunity and scope for the introduction of much more sophisticated costing systems.

As I have already stated, the successful implementation of the national plan requires a co-ordinated, planned approach to the management of the service as a whole and tremendous co-operation among all parts of the service. It will not be enough for each agency to allocate the available funds between programmes, even if these allocations accurately reflect the philosophy, intent and decisions of the plan. Clearly, in the light of previous experience and having regard to the multiplicity of fronts on which the problems must be tackled, a detailed plan must be drawn up by each health board and agency, setting out in sufficient detail the precise actions which have to be taken in order to ensure that the level of expenditure is brought into line with the approved allocations. The decisions required to do this will have to be taken quickly. After all, the biggest challenge arises in 1985. As I have already mentioned, the major health agencies have been asked to produce plans on these lines.

Over the next month or so, therefore, the concentration must be on achieving three things. First, it will be necessary for each agency to draw up a realistic action plan setting out how it proposes to ensure that its expenditure in 1985 will be in line with the approved allocation, taking full account of the liability arising from any excess expenditure incurred in 1984. Secondly, in the case of health boards the available funds must be distributed between programmes to reflect the assumption made in the action plan and the policies for health set out in the national plan.

I am fully aware that all of this and the continuing effort through the period of the plan will place a great strain on health agencies and their staffs. Nevertheless, I am sure that most people will welcome a situation in which we now clearly know what has to be achieved over the next three years. What must be faced up to is the need to set real priorities in the provision of health services. This has become much more pressing than was previously the case. Here again the national plan sets out a clear framework for the development of the necessary strategy. In a nutshell, we will have to become much more selective in focusing and in targetting the aims of public expenditure generally, and this argument applies to the health services with a particular force. The most vulnerable groups will have to be protected and services for these groups in particular will need further development. Given the fact that the financing of our health services must be funded within a ceiling of fixed cash limits over the next few years, a reallocation of resources is now called for. I am confident that with the co-operation of all concerned the difficulties which will inevitably arise can be overcome and that the financial and planning targets set out in the national plan will be achieved.

In the time at my disposal I am unable to deal in detail — I certainly would not want to prevent Senator Killilea from making his contribution — with the points raised in the course of the debate on the motion before the House. Nothing that has been said provides any real evidence of a disimprovement in the standards of essential services. Indeed, despite the chorus of criticisms, the financial restraints which have had to be applied to the health services in recent times have been absorbed without any serious impact on the structure and volume of essential services. It has been acknowledged that despite the expenditure limitations we have excellent health services. We intend to ensure that within the framework of the national plan, the essential fabric of the health services will be maintained.

The motion implies that the Minister is not as concerned as he should be about maintaining the level and quality of health care. This is scarcely to be taken seriously. The Minister has demonstrated that he is totally committed to strengthening and improving the health services on the basis of the substantial resources allocated for the services in the period to 1987. It would be naive to think that difficulties will not arise, but the Minister is confident that if all concerned work together in a constructive manner these difficulties can be overcome. Accordingly, I consider that the motion is inappropriate and should be rejected.

After listening to two-thirds of the Minister's speech here tonight, I feel it very appropriate that Senator Howard should leave this House with tongue in cheek after the statement that he has made in which he said that the Government have made and will continue to make an abundance of financial aid available to health services. I say no more because I think people will consider that statement made by him and the statement made by the Minister as to be very contradictory.

(Interruptions.)

As I have said on numerous occasions before, being a member of the Western Health Board, we find ourselves in a very precarious position at this time. For the last four months the essential question asked at our health board meetings and by members of every political party present — many of them very senior members in the Fine Gael Party and the Labour Party — and which the Minister, and the Minister of State tonight, have not answered was: have they defined or will they define or do they ever intend to define for the health boards a list of the priorities and a list of the essential services which we have to maintain? It has been mentioned in the Minister of State's speech here tonight, again only at the very end — almost missed, actually — cleverly and intelligently put in at the end of a speech which had no bearing whatsoever as a statement of fact in regard to what are the basic priorities and the basic essential services that the health boards must supply.

At the very opening of the Minister of State's speech he used phraseology which I believe should not be used by this Government or any Government. The statement is contained in the second paragraph. He states that this situation cannot be changed. I would rather suggest to the Minister of State that the words used there should be "will not be changed" supplemented by "during the term of the Coalition Government." Any Minister for Health with compassion in his heart will have to change the situation of the health services and the health boards.

I want to say that the language has been chosen well for the Minister rather than by the Minister. It is very significant in this debate on the health services. The reality is that no matter how many pages of a document we receive from the Minister, the health services are denuded this year of £37 million. It is a fact of life which has been given out and agreed upon by the chief executive officers of all the health boards and by chairmen of all health boards together in a joint statement at the meeting mentioned by the Minister of State in County Kildare recently. To me, that is preposterous.

For the last two years — and there is no Member of this House or the other House or any health board who cannot and will not agree — we have pruned the health services to the demand of the Department and the Minister to an extraordinary extent. Many health boards have pruned the flesh into the bone. The Minister and the Department are now asking us to prune the bone of the health services. There is no doubt about that.

I can only speak for those I represent in the Western Health Board. Last Monday we were told by the Minister that we had to prune the Western Health Board again this year by a further £4.04 million. Even before we began the debate on this particular pruning we discovered that the Department only allowed us an inflation rate of 5 per cent when the national statistics tell us that we are going to have an inflation rate of 7.7 per cent. Even before we talked about it the Department had cut back our allocation by £489,000 by not allowing us the going rate for inflation.

Over the last two years we have been asked to prune staff employment through all hospital grades in the first year by 1 per cent and in the following year by 2 per cent. We did that. Now we are being asked to make cuts again in the staff of our hospitals. The national figure given was in excess of 1,000 people. As far as we are concerned in the Western Health Board, we are not capable of adjusting ourselves to the budget allowed to us by the Minister, particularly taking into account the most important facet of it, which is that neither the Minister nor the Department has defined clearly what are the essential services. We classify as a gift given to us in the Western Health Board a scanner machine in Galway, the last post in the west, which is being left there, maintained by those who put it in but funds for staffing arrangements and costs estimated by the Department have been consistently refused.

I do not have to remind the Seanad of the motion on the Adjournment that I have down about the maternity unit and the disgraceful situation which prevails in Galway city where we have a unit which cost £4.6 million lying idle. We were forced into the situation of closing the fever hospital in Galway to try to give some skeleton staff for an extension of that building. We had the most recent situation where an expectant mother, while waiting on a trolley to be admitted gave birth on that trolley. She was accompanied by her husband. I think this speaks for itself. I am disappointed again tonight, as I have been in the past, that the Minister of State, Mr. Donnellan, has not brought home this situation to the Department and his Minister. It is a scandal in the west of Ireland today. Any Government who condone it should be ashamed of themselves.

I am not going to talk about the other services which we have cut. We had Senator M. Higgins, on the Government side, at our health board meeting the other day raising the question of orthodontic services. I will not elaborate. I could not elaborate on the facts in the manner he did in the health board. I suggest that the Minister pick up the minutes of that meeting and see what he had to say.

The Minister knows of the crazy situation regarding the supplementary welfare allowances which are billed to the county council and owed to the Western Health Board. We are at a stage where we now have a bill of £2.4 million in County Galway and we are unable to pay it. We recently found out why. We have now discovered the reason in two comparative figures. In the case of the Western Health Board the State grant total was 24 per cent whereas the North Western Health Board got 73 per cent. I ask is this government? I put it clearly to the Seanad, that this Minister for Health who is not present here tonight has a hatred unparalleled by any administrator ever in this country towards the west of Ireland and specifically towards the Western Health Board.

That is not true.

That is true and the facts are there. The Minister of State at the Department of Health, Mr. Donnellan, knows that.

That is rubbish, absolute rubbish.

I will even go further to explain to Senator Ferris that at the meeting in Kildare which the Minister of State, Deputy Donnellan, spoke about — I would like him to bring it home to his Minister — it was well known that when the Minister was asked by the CEO and chairman of the health boards how did he think we should have these cuts implemented, his reply was — and this is a fact —"You could' close the three mental institutions in the Western Health Board." We have only three such institutions in the Western Health Board and so it was his suggestion to close them. If it were not in his mind he would not have said it. This is what the Minister thinks of the Western Health Board.

(Interruptions.)

I will ask the Senators not to interrupt and Senator Killilea should not encourage interruptions.

I am not encouraging — I made a statement here and it is stated that it is not true.

(Interruptions.)

That is a serious allegation. When the Minister sat down to lunch with the CEOs and the chairmen of the health boards he would not allow the Minister of State to sit at the top table. That is what he thinks of the west of Ireland and that is the predicament that the Minister of State is in. I feel sympathy for him. That is an undeniable fact. He said you "could" close the three mental institutions. That was a serious statement from a Minister for Health.

He did not say "close".

He did not say we should close them. If you could tell me I could go home now, I would expect that to mean that I should go home now.

Indeed no.

That is what he meant by it.

You are expressing your opinion on it now.

In this speech delivered by the Minister of State — obviously it was written for him by the Minister himself — he said, "The realities of financial boundaries must be faced, options have to be selected and real choices have to be made". But who is he asking to make them? He is passing the buck on to the unfortunate members of the health boards around this country by asking them to declare what the services are and where the cuts should be made.

The Senator wants to be a member of a health board but not to accept the responsibility of membership.

(Interruptions.)

If the interruptions continue I will have to adjourn the House.

The Minister should let Deputy Desmond teach him some manners. The fact is he is saying the options have to be selected and real choices have to be made. But he forgot to say by whom — the health board members. In his speech he said:

Wherever possible and justifiable Government assistance in a social area should become more specific and more carefully aimed at.

Where are the prophecies of days gone by that they would look after the social welfare aspect of the bills from the health boards to the county councils? There is no mention of it in this document. The Western Health Board are still owed £2.5 million from the county councils. We will skip through this magnificent document read here tonight and come to page 6:

We must also take account of the objectives and targets which have arisen—

But of course these have not been defined for us. The poor fools in the health boards have to define what they are, but the Minister will tell them what they must do. He continued:

—or will arise out of recent or pending reviews in respect of the health services—

He gives the options:

—to review the organisation of community care—

Let me give an example of the reorganisation of community care which went on in our area, and the Minister of State must know this. In Carna we had a day centre which we could not keep open, although we asked for finance to so do. Yet in this document he says that we must review the organisation. What this means to the health board people is that we must close more centres. That is the way we have to take it. We have to get our £4.04 million. Then comes the most abominable statement of all, and it brings the point back to Senator Ferris:

—the review of the psychiatric services, for example.

Why has the Minister of State allowed that to be put in? In a public statement made recently it was said that we would have eight closures of psychiatric hospitals. Therefore, Deputy Desmond must have meant what he said in Kildare when he passed the remark to our chairman and CEO that he could close three psychiatric units. We cannot, and will not close three psychiatric units. I will give this message to this abominable Minister for Health, not to the Minister of State, because I know he is only the boy, the puppet. The Minister for Health should be ashamed of himself.

There is a very suitable psychiatric hospital down there for the Senator.

This abominable Minister for Health should be ashamed of himself for his attitude towards health and more particularly for his attitude towards western health. He should be ashamed of his performance in an area where there is a crying need for health care, taking into account the climatic conditions alone in the most westerly part of the country. Senator Fallon agreed that I could take four or five minutes of his time, but I cannot have it. I am very sorry because I had a lot more to say. I am very sorry that the Minister of State, Mr. Donnellan, went before me because he could have an opportunity to give us the facts.

After that contribution by Senator Killilea I want to try to make a reasoned contribution to this motion. I do not like people castigating Ministers who are not present. I have no intention of defending anybody.

(Interruptions.)

The motion condemns the cutbacks in the health services. The Senator is a member of a health board as I am. He does not attend very often but he is quite a vocal member. My understanding of how a health board are allocated their funds is that we sit down and discuss what the allocation we require from the Department of Health for the following year is. We base that allocation on the figures of what we spent the previous year.

(Interruptions.)

If Senators do not stop interrupting I will adjourn the House.

I will deal specifically with the word "cutback". How do we define a cutback in the health services? I am being interrupted by the Leas-Chathaoirleach, who continually asks us not to be interrupting. Could I ask the Chair to control the Leas-Chathaoirleach so that I can make a contribution, which I hope will be of value to the Opposition?

If all Senators do not stop interrupting I will adjourn the House.

We make an application to the Department of Health every year. It is based on two things ——

What is a cutback? The Senator asked that question.

Senator Lanigan is interrupting and he is not being helpful.

Apparently the Opposition would define the word cutback as not getting what they asked for. The only basis I have before me is what my health board have asked for. My health board asked for an allocation and we got an increased allocation over the previous year but it is not what we asked for. We term that as a cutback, if you like. A previous Minister for Health from the Fianna Fáil Party was the first man ever to talk about cutbacks in health services. Senator Killilea might like to know that Deputy Woods was the first Minister for Health to make it obligatory on health boards to cut back their staffs by 5 per cent. That is the first time that I as a member of a health board, ever heard of the word cutback in regard to staffing — obligatory cutback of staffs. We had no option, and I disagreed with it. I disagree now with the Minister asking us to have a blanket cutback in staffing levels throughout the health services. I said that not only tonight but weeks ago during the debate on the national plan. I feel it is an area that cannot be dealt with in the broad sweep of some official's pen, to say that you cannot have an increase of staff in health board areas.

I can give you statistics to prove it. If we look at the staffing levels in the various hospitals throughout the country there are some regions which are more advantaged than we are. I am not denying that the west might be one of those regions — I can only speak for the South Eastern Health Board. I know that the staffing levels allocated to us do not compare in any way with health boards throughout the rest of the country. I would be failing in my responsibility as a member of the board if I did not put that on the record of the House for both the Minister of State and the Minister himself. I can prove that our health board run their health services £2.5 million cheaper in comparable terms than any other health board in the country and we still have problems.

What does the word "cutback" mean? It is a cutback in what we have looked for. I would wish that the economy would be able to stand for all the things that I, as a health board member, could look for, but because the Minister for Health, who is not present to defend himself, is confined to a specific budget which he has to allocate to the best of his ability, health boards cannot be given all they ask for. I have asked the Minister to look at the various allocations that are being made to the various health boards.

In 1984 the allocations were as follows: the Eastern Health Board, £347.75 million, which equals £292.4 per adjusted head of the population; the Midland Health Board got £66.80 million, which equals £321 per head; the Mid-Western Health Board got £87.30 million, which equals £390 per head; the North Eastern got £77 million which is £273 per head; the North Western got £76.40 million which works out at £367 per head; the South Eastern Health Board got £106.96 million which works out at £275.4 per head; the Southern Health Board, the one with all the problems, got an allocation of £152.97 million, which works out per head of the population which they have to serve at £291.3 per head, and the Western Health Board got £120.07 million which is £352.2 per head. They are the comparable figures throughout the country. My health board deliver a service which is second to none, cheaper than any other health board of comparable size.

I have to come to grips with the word used in the motion —"cutback". There can be cutbacks if we cannot get enough money but there can also be disadvantages for areas that are trying to be efficient and are being compared unfavourably with institutions in Dublin, specifically. The staffing levels in Dublin are four or five times greater than any other part of the country. We started with a disadvantage and we finish up with one. When times are tough we are expected to tighten our belts the same as everybody else, but on a comparable basis we suffer.

I will refer to the average weekly cost per occupied bed because the public will want to know the cost of the provision of the health services by the health boards set up under the 1970 Act with a statutory responsibility to use their funds efficiently and to ensure that the services are delivered to the people who need them; there has been no suggestion by either the Minister or the Minister of State that anybody should be refused a hospital service over a weekend. What we are advocating is that acute hospitals should be available to give a service when it is required and that there should be no unnecessary occupancy of the beds over weekends — to have a person lying in bed for two days and not being seen by any professional consultant in the hospital is a waste of public money. If that person can be at home, he should be at home.

He would not be in hospital if he could be at home.

That is the point. Now we have health boards making definitions of what their roles are. Nobody should be in hospital who should not be, and nobody should be brought to a clinic in a hospital when the need does not arise. Thousands of people are being brought into clinics every week and are being looked at momentarily by consultants and are told to come back the following week. This goes on and on. I have proof of this. One needs only to go to these clinics and ask the patients there. This is the procedure, and we have to depend on the consultants' advice. Consultants have been asked by members of our health board if they bring in people for consultation who do not need it. The answer you always get is that if an operation is performed it is the appropriate thing to bring back that person to hospital continuously over a period. That person could be taken care of by their own GP. If there was a necessity to send people back to the hospital, that is quite acceptable. Because of this the whole system is clogged. Clinic service should be available to people who need it, not because it is nice to see hundreds and thousands of people going to clinics in ambulances.

Members from both sides of the House will come to terms with what it costs to deliver the health services. There is a tremendous responsibility on us to ensure that the services are delivered efficiently. Voluntary public hospital cost per bed per week is £871. Voluntary special hospital cost is £802 per head per week. The cost of the regional hospitals per bed per week is £842. The county hospitals, which have been decried by previous Ministers, professors and people who want to rationalise the health services, have a fee of £674 per week. The district hospitals have a cost of £287. The district long-stay hospitals have £267. The geriatric hospital cost per week is £159 and the health board welfare homes have a cost of £85 per week. Those are the comparable costs for which a service has to be delivered. The Minister said in his speech that people who require private or semiprivate services in some way should be subsidised by the taxpayer. As a Labour Party representative I should like to state that if somebody needs a specialised private hospital service he should pay for it. Scarce resources should not be given to the elite who want to go to those hospitals. Then you have a cry from the VHI people——

This does not apply to voluntary hospitals. The Senator should be ashamed of himself.

We should be constructive in what we are doing in providing a public health service which we should be able to pay for.

(Interruptions.)

I warned Senators I would adjourn the House. I will do so.

The reality is that if we are going to provide a public health service we should be able to afford to do it.

How can we do it when we have calls from the other side of the House asking the Government to subsidise private treatment also? The Minister has stated that he is asking for increased amounts to be paid by people who require private or confidential services and let them pay for it. Otherwise, if they are entitled to the service — and the 1976 Act states that everybody is entitled to a hospital bed — let us have the money for it. Anybody requiring any other kind of service should be expected to pay for it.

I am pleased to see that the consultants and others are now being asked to make a contribution. This is only right. It is intolerable that anybody engaged in the health services should not make a contribution to ensuring that the services can continue. Not alone does this stand for the statutory demand that is made on councils but it should apply to the demand that is being made on the private sector to pay their health contributions. In the health board of the south-east we have a figure of £6 million due by people on their health contributions and other charges being made by the health boards up to now. These have been transferred to the Revenue Commissioners. This money is due from people who need the service and still will not pay for it. The PAYE worker has to pay for it all the time, and he is expected to provide a service every day it is wanted. We must be honest with ourselves in dealing with this whole question. If we are we will have served some useful purpose in discussing the various options that are available to us under the limited budget that appears to be available from the Exchequer.

The Minister has a commitment to the health services; he wants to ensure that every £1 that he has available to him will be spent correctly. I am quite sure that there is no proof in any of the allegations that he has any discrimination against any area in the country. He has to allocate the funds available to him and I am depending on the members of health boards, whether they are Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael or Labour, to do the job to the best of their ability.

We still will have problems. Over the past three years at least we have brought some capital projects to fruition that Fianna Fáil failed to do. Hospitals were built in Tralee and they were never opened; they were built all over the country and nothing further was done with them. Now we are expected to do everything about them; and the country became broke in the process of promises——

The man responsible is back. He was out to his friend Gaddafi to spend a few tailors.

(Interruptions.)

I am not sure what the object is of this. I am listening to a Minister who has not got responsibility for this Department shouting across at this side of the House. I thought that Ministers were not supposed to judge contributions from either side of the House. I wonder is it because he got a kick on the shins earlier that he decided he had better give a kick in the ankle; then when he got a kick in the thigh he has decided to do something about it. Having said that, this motion was put in so that we could talk about a very unfortunate situation that has arisen. One of the last things that Senator Ferris said was that we built hospitals which are not being used. I agree totally with him. We built a 14-bed extension to the maternity section of the County Hospital in Kilkenny at a time when there were up to 40 people in the corridors in that hospital. I make no apology to anybody for being to the fore of looking for an extension to that hospital. There are still 40 beds in the corridors of that hospital and the 14-bed extension is still there but we cannot get staff, as Senator Ferris should know, to open that unit.

I should not particularise; but I am particularising. There is no point in talking about capital extensions unless the staff are available. The South Eastern Health Board were told that that 14-bed extension can be opened but it has to be staffed from within the existing staff of the South Eastern Health Board area. The people of Carlow will say quite plainly that the only way the extension in Kilkenny County Hospital can be opened is if the maternity unit is closed in St. Bridget's in Carlow. That is exactly what the health board have been told by the CEO in Kilkenny; that is the only way it will be opened.

The national plan makes big play about bringing community care into the health services, that we should have an extension of community care. At the same time it states that the only way community care can be extended to the areas in which it is needed is to use the existing staff, and there will be a 40 per cent decrease in staff over the next four years. It is a beautiful concept that we will extend community care, which is what we all wish to have. We do not want people in hospital. We want them to stay healthy in the first place but if they become ill we should provide that they can be looked after by the community health officers in their own houses and be brought in occasionally for check-ups.

Over the next four years, according to the national plan, £4 million will be spent in Kilkenny on an extension to a hospital which already has a 14-room extension that we cannot handle. We are going to spend £4 million on that hospital but we will get no staff for it. Where is the logic in that? The builders will get a certain amount out of it, and anything a builder can get at present he deserves. I cannot see the logic in spending £4 million. I suggest that that is throwing £4 million down the drain. That is only Kilkenny. Senator Ferris cannot disagree with that, unless we are given the staff in that area.

Senators have mentioned the concept of free hospitalisation for everybody and that if anybody wants specialist treatment he or she should pay for it. That is what closed 90 per cent of the hospitals in London over the last couple of years. Everybody was given free hospitalisation and nobody could get specialist treatment. In London if one has an in-grown toenail it will take seven weeks to get an appointment with a doctor and it will take seven months to get treatment for it, if one does not get somebody to pull it off with a pliers. Basically it is the pliers pulling that is going on in the British medical service because of the complete extension of the free health service area. How did the Government decide to deal with this? Charge the consultants for private use, a recipe for total disaster. It costs a lot of money to become a consultant. It costs the State a certain amount of money.

It costs the State a lot of money.

It costs the person who decides to become a consultant a big sum of money, but not alone that: he does not get consultancy status until he is at least 30 years of age. He has little time in which to recoup for himself and the State the value of his experience. If the consultants are run out of the country we will be doing the same as they have to do in the Middle East and the Third World countries, building up huge blocks in Blackrock, or wherever, and giving consultants extra money to do operations which are not being done in the countries from which the patients come. We can force the consultants out of the country; it is the easiest thing in the world to do that, but it is very difficult to get a consultant to come back. It is equally difficult to get a consultant to the stage when he is capable of going into a hospital to take care of every patient. I think at times that consultants are paid too much but I never think that they do not give every patient the degree of individual care needed.

We have a stupid situation in Kilkenny where there is a private hospital, a St. John of God hospital, with 100 beds, which is quite capable of being used by the public health service, but the public health service will not even use it on the basis of transferring patients who have already got over their operations for a convalescent period because the Government think that that would be going away from the socialist principle.

We have a public hospital in Kilkenny but we are not using it.

We have an auxiliary hospital there which has a 12-month waiting list. We have a St. John of God hospital which was built by the St. John of God nuns who did not take one penny of public funds, but because of the stupidity of this Government we cannot use it to help to ease the very dangerous situation that arises when corridors are clogged. The health services are being clogged because of stupidity. The Fine Gael people in the Government might not think they are not going totally against the grain in not using the facilities in the St. John of God hospital. It has the best laboratory facilities. It has magnificent rooms. It has everything that could be desired. It is available to the health services but, because of a socialist principle, it is considered preferable to leave patients in corridors rather than move them to private hospitals.

Senator Lanigan, your time is up.

The question of bed prices was mentioned. This was used in a very distinctive way, as if the hospital bed was the only cost. The inference was that if you went to a regional hospital it would cost much more than a district hospital or a geriatric hospital. There is no way you can get into a geriatric hospital in Kilkenny. I agree totally with Senator Ferris that the South Eastern Health Board are doing their best and their cost per patient factor is less than it is anywhere else. Cost per patient is not everything in the health services.

I have to call on Senator Fallon to conclude.

May I have a few words?

No. Senator Fallon to conclude.

(Interruptions.)

I will adjourn the Debate if interruptions continue.

We submitted this motion to express in the strongest possible way the great concern that has been shown by the ordinary man in the street, by the medical profession, by the nursing profession, by people who understand what is happening in the whole area of medical care, because of the fact that the standard of health care is declining rapidly. The tenor of the debate, particularly from this side of the House, reflected the fury of our members at the suggestion that all is well when we know that is not the case. Our involvement in local health committees and various health boards has given us numerous examples of clear cutbacks in the provision of health services. We stuck quite clearly to the factual position. There is positive proof from Donegal to Wexford of what is happening.

No matter what is said about the famous or infamous national plan, it will not impress me, or the man in the street, or the person who knows anything about a health board, whether he be a CEO, or an ordinary member, or a member of the administration staff. Nowhere in the plan is it even suggested that there might be hardship in the years ahead. There is no mention of the fact that the allocations will be reduced by £37 million over the next year. There will be inflation in that period so, in real terms, the reduction will be much more. There is nothing in the plan about two-thirds of the vacancies in the health boards not being filled over the next few years. There is nothing in the plan which says there will be a cutback in the pay-rolls.

Senator Ferris asked what are cutbacks. He suggested, very unfairly, that it is what the Opposition want. That was a most unfair comment. Cutbacks mean wards closed, units closed, operations not taking place, food cutbacks. In the past in St. James, they provided nice desserts. Now they have been told to cut out tinned fruit and custard. Because our health boards cannot get the money there will be cutbacks. Because they cannot get the money patients will suffer.

The Minister of State has given the impression that all is well. Let us go back to the factual situation: a cutback in beds, fewer admissions and patients being sent home as soon as possible. Last week a person in hospital in the west who was not well enough to leave was asked to leave on Friday. He was unable to go home. He had to stay in bed. They pleaded with him to go home. When Senator Killilea refers to "Monday to Friday", perhaps he may be exaggerating a little, but the point is that much of what Senator Killilea and other Senators said is true.

(Interruptions.)

There seems to be a totally left wing party over there.

Senator Fallon without interruption.

We have cutbacks everywhere. There are cutbacks on locums, on overtime, on week-end work. I have already referred to food and other such areas. Orthopaedic units are being closed. There are no hip or knee replacements in the Southern Health Board areas. Psychiatric problems are growing every day of the week. There is an air of no confidence in the country. There is low morale with the result that more and more people are seeking psychiatric advice. Psychiatric hospitals are being filled.

I read in the Evening Herald that 7,000 people have drink problems. We know the Health Education Bureau are doing great work to solve the drink problem. They placed suitable advertisments in newspapers and on television advising people to drink in moderation. Yet the Government, in their famous national plan, proposed an extension of the drinking hours — a kick in the pants to the Health Education Bureau who are doing such good work in this area. The Government extended the drinking hours when nobody, not even the hardened boozer, wanted that. The publicans and their staff do not want it. I would accuse the Government of double standards in this area.

Senator Killilea referred to the scanner in Galway. In my own town, Athlone, we have been told to cut back on the ambulance service because of re-deployment. There was a serious accident outside Athlone about six weeks ago. The injured were taken to Portiuncula Hospital in a van. Yet our fire brigade can travel into Galway. Roscommon, Offaly and Longford to quench a bog fire, or whatever, while our ambulance service is denied movement to accidents outside our town. The facts are exactly as I have explained them.

Some months ago we had a blaze of glory. I congratulated the Minister for Health on telling us that in Athlone we are getting an orthopaedic unit and a casualty centre. I know that plans are going ahead, but I also know that the Midland Health Board, acting wisely applied at an early stage to the Department of Health for staff. They were told: "You have to make savings in the rest of your staff. You have to redeploy. You have to move them from here to there. You cannot get extra staff." Yet in the debate in Dáil Éireann, Deputy Ormonde referred specifically to Athlone. He said he could tell Athlone that he had bad news for them. Because of good management they were able to move staff into the hospital. When they went back looking for an extra allocation this year, they were told: "You were able to save and we are cutting you by the amount of money you were able to save." They lost out totally. We will lose out totally. The intentions of the Minister may be good and honourable, but Athlone will not have an orthopaedic unit because it will not be staffed.

Senator Howard sang the praises of the Government. He thought we were in an area of movement to a level of health care unprecedented in this country. He is alone in that view because, all over the country, members of the Fine Gael Party, councillors, urban councillors and county councillors, and Labour members, are very critical of the Government. They must all be out of step except Senator Howard.

The point is that there are cutbacks left, right and centre. The Minister said that the most vulnerable groups will have to be protected and services for these groups in particular will need further development. The very people he talks about, the people who were referred to in the famous Joint Programme for Government, the poor, the sick, those who cannot provide for themselves, are the people who will be penalised.

The Senator has two minutes left.

We have a new poor. Those who are above the medical card limits, who are caught for refuse charges, water charges, tax, PRSI and the whole lot, are finding the going extremely rough. They are finding the position tougher than they ever imagined. We have the new poor and the poor. Even those who can afford to pay are complaining. The message is gloom and doom. Our health services are going into a state of total disrepair. Our health care and our patient care are going downhill at a very fast rate. I call on the Government before it is too late to give the appropriate financial contributions to the health boards so that a level of health care can be provided of which every member of this Government can be proud.

Question put.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 16; Níl, 27.

  • Ellis, John.
  • Fallon, Sean.
  • Fitzsimons, Jack.
  • Hillery, Brian.
  • Honan, Tras.
  • Hussey, Thomas.
  • Kiely, Rory.
  • Killilea, Mark.
  • Lanigan, Mick.
  • Lynch, Michael.
  • Mullooly, Brian.
  • O'Toole, Martin J.
  • Ryan, Brendan.
  • Ryan, Eoin.
  • Ryan, William.
  • Smith, Michael.

Níl

  • Belton, Luke.
  • Browne, John.
  • Bulbulia, Katharine.
  • Burke, Ulick.
  • Connor, John.
  • Conway, Timmy.
  • Daly, Jack.
  • Deenihan, Jimmy.
  • Dooge, James C.I.
  • Durcan, Patrick.
  • Ferris, Michael.
  • FitzGerald, Alexis J. G.
  • Fleming, Brian.
  • Harte, John.
  • Higgins, Jim.
  • Hourigan, Richard V.
  • Howard, Michael.
  • Howlin, Brendan.
  • Kelleher, Peter.
  • Kennedy, Patrick.
  • Lennon, Joseph.
  • McAuliffe-Ennis, Helena.
  • McDonald, Charlie.
  • McGonagle, Stephen.
  • McMahon, Larry.
  • O'Leary, Seán.
  • Quealy, Michael A.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and Fallon; Níl, Senators Belton and Harte.
Question declared lost.
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