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Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 20 Nov 1985

Vol. 110 No. 1

Report on Prison Reform: Motion.

I move:

That Seanad Éireann welcomes the enlightened and practical prison reforms proposed in the Whitaker Committee report, and calls on the Government to implement the report as a matter of urgency.

I am privileged to move this motion on behalf of the Labour Party, noting the report of the Whitaker Committee. I want to put on record the gratitude, not only of Members of the House but of all those interested over the years in prison reform, to Dr. Whitaker and members of the committee and to those who contributed to the information appendices to the main body of the report.

I recall the establishment of the Whitaker Committee. On that occasion I recall, as a member of the MacBride Committee of Inquiry into the Penal System in Ireland, criticising the narrowness of the terms of reference particularly the omission from the terms of reference of the causes of crime. The Minister, when replying, said he felt that we had a difference of opinion and that investigation of the causes of crime in Britain, one Royal Commission after another, had not been conclusive. My reply to him on that occasion was that this was not necessarily so and that we had begun to learn a great deal more about crime. I am pleased to see that the Minister's injunction to the new members of the committee on that occasion, that they should interpret the terms of reference generously, was taken up by the members of the committee. What we have before us is a very important document. It was produced very quickly by the committee. I would also like to pay tribute to the secretariat who worked with Dr. Whitaker and the committee.

If I have a quibble with the report — in the popular press reports reference was made to its length, its 360 pages complete with bibliography — it is that in some places it had to compress literature that is very large into a rather short space. I have some sympathy for the committee in this regard.

I am very conscious of the fact that the committee went about their work at a time that was a very difficult. We were in the middle of what I can only describe as a crime panic. I do not want to weary the Seanad by repeating arguments that I have placed on the record previously, but there is a distinction between two things — the real rate of crime and the perceived rate of crime. Intervening between the real rate of crime and the perceived rate of crime are all the different influences that affect public perception. Thus, for example, if there is too much sensational coverage given to attacks on the elderly it creates a sense of fear among the elderly who previously were not afraid. One has to draw a distinction. This is not to say that attacks on the elderly should not be reported or indeed that the punishment of those involved in such despicable crimes should not be reported. However, there is a distinction between what the public perceives to be the crime rate and what the real rate is.

The beginning of the report adverts to the problem of assessing the rate of crime. The rate of crime has increased. The report was probably drawing on the very valuable experience that Dr. David Rothman of the Economic and Social Research Institute brought to the committee. The major changes in crime in the 1960s are probably that it shifted from being a rural to an urban phenomenon, that the pattern of violence in murder has changed and that there has been an increase in property-related crimes. Of course, there is more property, there are more motor vehicles and there is an increase in population in the urban areas. Therefore, when one is talking about crime waves one has to allow for all of these factors.

The atmosphere in which the committee began their work — and the Labour Party welcome the report of the committee and urge the Government to implement their report — is well summed up in an Irish Independent leader of 9 August 1985. It begins:

The first whispers of the conclusions of the Committee of Inquiry into the Penal System have begun circulating. They are bound to fuel the debate, which is always live, about the purpose of prisons and penal systems.

The information available suggests that the system should concentrate more on finding alternative forms of punishment for people convicted in courts — such as community service for example. Remission should be increased from a quarter to one-third of the sentence. New prisons would cost a fortune to build so let's spend the money on the alternative forms. And the parties involved in the row between the P.O.A. and the Department of Justice should sort themselves out.

Perhaps the public's eye will be caught by the suggestions that what seems to be a milder regime for prisoners should be encouraged. And this is where the sparks will fly.

A public which feels itself threatened by violence and which is also sickened by it will always want some form of punishment for the offenders. The Committee apparently believes that community service would fit the crime in many instances. The public — or a large part of it — may well argue that this is a very soft reply to men and women who have broken the law, is no encouragement to Gardaí to catch criminals and is certainly no deterrent to people who have taken to crime as a way of life.

Encapsulated in that leader is the view that was readily being created and disseminated in this country at the time the Whitaker Committee began their work. It had a number of forms — distort the true rate of crime, sensationalise crime and continually build and build more moral panic and fear in the community so as to make the case for the harsh option in relation to responding to crime rather then the softer option.

I want to challenge an assumption that the Irish Independent makes on behalf of all of us. A public which feels itself threatened by violence, and which is also sickened by it, will always want some form of punishment for the offenders. Is that not the nub of the matter? When I was serving on the MacBride Commission, we debated this issue of the purpose of prison. Many want people sent to prison for different reasons. Should it be a matter of punishment or retribution? Should it be revenge? Should it be rehabilitation? Interviewers frequently ask the victims of crimes and their near relatives “what would you like to happen to this person”? The person in an emotional moment might say something and it is carried in the papers, and so on. What is the motivation one might ask? I object to a newspaper suggesting that there is in the public this ungenerous attitude towards people who commit crimes. I think it can be created. I think it can be whipped up; it can be fanned.

Imprisonment is a very difficult concept to understand when you look back at the Irish history of the prison system. The Irish prison system is relatively short in history. Like many of our other problems, deportation was available for a long time, so we did not have prisons. People were either executed, mutilated or deported. Indeed, many of the buildings which the Whitaker Committee describe in a very interesting set of photographs, which are in the report from page 148 to 178, show the kind of institution that they had to review. It looks at toilets in Mountjoy Prison on page 149; it looks at other modern ones in page 150. Basically, in those 30 pages you get an impression of the institutional provision that was inherited by this State and which is totally inadequate. It was one of the terms of reference that they look at the conditions. They have done us a service in drawing attention to them.

I would like to say, as a preliminary to the recommendations of the Labour Party, that for the record, the Labour Party have an old association with prison reform. It was in the Thirties that the Irish Congress of Trade Unions asked the Parliamentary Labour Party to establish a group to look at conditions in prisons. That group was appointed, with young Jim Larkin serving as secretary. They presented their first report on prisons in Ireland in the modern period, prisons and prisoners. What is very important to bear in mind is that there have been difficulties in looking at the prison service up to now. It has been bedevilled by secrecy. It has been very difficult to conduct proper research on prisons. That is my personal view. It has been very difficult to conduct research on prisoners. The argument for that is that you were invading their constitutional rights if you, in fact, interviewed them after they left prison. It has been very difficult to assemble case histories of the experience of prison. It has been very difficult altogether to put together life histories of the effects of prison.

I was worried by some of the newspaper reactions. I only quoted one newspaper, although there was another newspaper, The Irish Times, which welcomed the Whitaker report. I think it was right to do that. Of course, the Whitaker report was welcomed by the Prison Officers' Association, the Prisoners' Rights Association, with some reservations, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, the Irish Council for Civil Liberties, the Labour Party, The Workers' Party and members of the Probation and Welfare Service. A number of bodies welcomed it. The people to whom the editorial I quoted refer are people who have very little conception of what prison is about. The deprivation of liberty is the main effect of imprisonment: one is not free to take decisions.

The history of prisons all over the world, as the historians of prisons tell us, shows that, first of all, the prisoner's time is not controlled by himself, his access to space is not controlled by himself and his body is not controlled by himself. That was the purpose originally of convict uniforms. It is the purpose for the retention of basic elementary potting out ceremonies in prisons long after other reforms have been introduced. The prisoner loses the right to make basic decisions in freedom. He loses certain rights to make certain decisions in relation to his essential privacy and in relation to the integrity of his person. The very fact of imprisonment is in itself something that has to be faced by society as to whether it is an appropriate response or not.

I hold the personal opinion that imprisonment is an incredibly inhuman response to problems in many ways and is very much in the short term something of a last resort. I welcome the recommendation in the Whitaker Committee's report that prison sentences should be shortened if possible, that non-custodial alternatives should be developed to the maximum and that, where possible, there should be a review of sentences when they go over a certain period. I think that these proposals are all welcome and I think that they will be welcomed.

I would like to say more about the world of prison. I visited a prisoner who was mentioning to me the basic aspects of being in prison, of not knowing the changes in the seasons of the year and the limited space to which you had access. There is one last contextual reference I will make. When Pentonville was opened the industrialists of Britain gathered for the official opening. They marvelled that, at the pull of a lever, so many doors could be opened and that there could be so much control of so many human beings. It was almost like clockwork.

The question that faces us in the end is: what is the purpose of prison? There is a debate going on in this country. It needs to be quashed right now. Many of the people who end up in prison have already been very bruised by society in terms of their background. I want to draw a distinction immediately here. An illogical proposition has been put up every time in the last 12 years I have been in public life when I have spoken on the subject of penal reform. I have said that when you take the unemployment rate and the rate of social deprivation in different areas you will notice a correspondence between them and the rate of imprisonment. I have never said that one's background makes one a criminal. There is a connection between the two rates — in other words, between the rate of the predisposing factors and of the actual crime rate itself. Of course, individuals make the choice about what they will do between the incidents of crime. It never gets clarified. People always turn around and say to me "I suppose it was his background that made him do that". But background is important.

One of the most challenging findings that is coming out of this report, as of others, is the close predictive ability between those who are in institutions for juveniles, for example, who have been offenders and those who have been non-offenders. The mere fact of institutionalisation, which itself is related to unemployment, homelessness and poor backgrounds in many cases, is as good a predictive factor in the non-criminal setting as it is a fact of the criminal setting. One has to look at it like that.

There are a number of important questions that arise immediately. I think one of the most important chapters in the report is chapter 3, "Society and Crime", which invites us to debate how society views crime. There is a Durkheimian notion at one stage in the report where it more or less argues about the causes of crime and states that the purpose of society is more or less to reproduce itself and that society must deal with its offenders in a particular way. I am not sure that that is the project of people like myself. It certainly is not to reproduce the existing society uncritically the way it is.

That raises another question. The hysteria in that group of newspapers to which I referred earlier is entirely directed at the control of society. It is not directed at understanding society. I have spent nearly 20 years lecturing in the area of criminology and the one division I would make between the literature on the subject has been that there are those who set out to understand the causes and nature of crime and imprisonment and there are those who want, in fact, effective techniques of control —"control-ology" if you like. I believe that we have to move beyond the notion of imagining that we have an enormously greater crime crisis than we have and of developing short term hysterical reactions based on fear, demanding even more stringent measures of control, towards a more patient understanding of the complexity of the causes of crime. I argue in favour of that.

In one of the early chapters the report came down in favour of factors that could be used to prevent the rate of crime. It spoke in favour of the restriction of penalties to keep people out of prison and to reduce the length of time in prison. It spoke about the reduction of the term of imprisonment. I think that running through this report too is this question of recidivism. Why do people keep coming back again and again and again to prison? The question that arises from the extreme right — and I hate using these terms but let us say from the people who are the harshest in their response to the crime wave — would be this: let us make it so unattractive for them in prison that they will never want to go back there again. They speak of colour television sets that they themselves have not. We all listen to this kind of stuff.

Let us be clear about what happens in prisonisation, or going to prison. First of all, there are three separate things happening. There is the psychological adjustment that is going on in the person who perceives that he is going to prison. I have to take the flow chart for example that is in the information appendix to this report. I think it is in Dr. Rottman's paper. You will see that those who go to prison are in fact, a very small proportion of those who ever commit offences. From the moment that they have been apprehended right to the moment they surrender their clothes and their items are listed, they are having an adjustment in themselves as to the kind of person they are. There is surely a change of identity going on. When they enter prison itself there is an atmosphere in which they can, for example, decide to be isolates or they can decide to mix with other prisoners who are parts of some kind of criminal sub-culture; or they may decide to try to make a fist of it by working out some way of managing the experience of prison itself. One way or another that process goes on. As well as that, their social links to society have now been disrupted. Skills which the rest of us take for granted in relation to education, work and human and other skills are now disrupted and shrunk, even in regard to relating to people of the opposite sex.

Then we come on to the other setting altogether, and that is when they come out of prison. These people have diminished skills and disrupted social relationships. They have equally the problem that society still has not made up its mind whether the slate is wiped clean because everybody has a record. Many particularly the juvenile offenders, go back into an environment of overcrowded housing, high rates of unemployment, extreme poverty and to other people, for example, who now have something to share, that is, experience of having been in prison. Therefore inter-generationally and intra-generationally, there is the exchange of the experience of prison. I found, as I read the report of the Committee of Inquiry into the Penal System, a humane emphasis on this. I think that every little humane gesture that has been made so far, historically, has been supported in the report. It speaks correctly of the advantages of the juvenile liaison system. They warn about the excesses of "controlology", if you like, rather than understanding the nature of crime. They tell us in chapter 7 of the business of prison regimes and prison rules.

It is one thing to look at prison rules as they are on paper. It is another thing to look at them as they are experienced by people who are in prison. I recall evidence being given to the MacBride Commission, when I was a member of it, of rules being invented by those in charge of particular sections of a prison indicating that one prisoner, for example, could not hand a library book to another prisoner, or the way that the prisoner could get his hair done. There was a whole series of informal rules in prisons. I look forward to the day — and I place it on the record for about the fifth time in my ten years in both Houses — when we will be able to get into the Irish prisons to do the research that we were able to do when I was working in the United States where the prisons were far more open and where people could do some work on prisons, their background and conditions. In that respect the Whitaker report has broken ground and all of us working in the area of criminology must welcome it.

It think the report in relation to the general movement of the establishment of a separate board or institution to look after prisons is to be welcomed, even though I share the reservation of the Prisoners' Rights Organisation about the fact that the Department of Justice will still be left with control. This is less than the recommendation we made in the MacBride Commission. I am in favour of severing the connection with the Department of Justice, but I welcome the report as far as it has gone in relation to this question of setting up an independent board and an independent chief officer.

What the report says about women's prisons bears out what many of us have been saying. For example, in 1983 some 40 per cent of women offenders committed to custody under sentence were 21 years of age or less. This is stated on page 73 of the report. Some 80 per cent had been convicted of offences which did not involve personal violence. Apart from a very few people, there is no case for having women in prison in Ireland. There is no justification for it, historically or any other way.

In relation to the personal development of prisoners and on education, page 97 of the report warns against a certain tendency. I quote:

...Over the past two years educational provision has not kept pace with the greatly increased numbers entering prisons nor is it likely to do so unless there is a formal policy decision in this regard.

I would urge that more and more provision be made for the education of prisoners and for the kind of education which provides a range of choices suitable to prisoners' needs. Of course, the cynics, again commenting, said that the real reason for having less prisons and shorter time in prison was the quotation on page 147:

...for every 100 fewer new prisoners there will be a saving to public funds of:

Capital outlay — £12.7m

Annual cost — £3.8m

Therefore, they said it would be less expensive to have non-custodial measures.

May I conclude by saying this, because many Senators will want to speak and contribute to the debate on this motion. I would invite them to look in particular at the section on pages 248 and 249 which gives a description of the prison regime:

The daily routine in all the institutions is fairly standard. It is based on a time-table which allows for work or education activities in the mornings and afternoons and recreation in the evenings (outdoor during the summer). During winter one hour's outdoor recreation each day (weather permitting) must be given. The main features of the routine are the long lock-up time (about 16 hours and the short time available for work or education activities (about 4 hours). A typical time-table is:

8.00-8.15 a.m. morning call, unlock

8.30 a.m. Breakfast and lock-up

9.30 a.m. Unlock. Work/Education

12.30 p.m. Dinner and lock-up

2.15 p.m. Unlock. Work/Education

4.30 p.m. Tea and lock-up

5.15 p.m. Unlock and recreation

7.00 p.m. Supper

7.30-8.00 p.m. Lock-up

Do all those who feel that those of us who are in favour of reforming the prisons are simply soft or liberal hear the word "lock" so often in that quotation that I have read? The deprivation of freedom itself is a sufficient invasion into the life of an individual to ask the question: "what have we done in our society to make it so necessary that so many people have to suffer a regime like this?".

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has one minute to conclude.

There are, of course, so many other recommendations in the report that the speakers can tease out. Could I just say this in the end? There is the suggestion, for example, that we change the method of appointing these visiting committees and that we allow prisoners access to the Office of the Ombudsman. We need proper, practical visiting committees, who in the short term are interested in improving the lot of people in prison.

I am left with the image again of prison. What was the purpose of prison initially? Has it achieved its aim of being a deterrent? Was it ever allowed or attempted? Even the Quakers have abandoned the purpose for prison of rehabilitation. Is prison not really more the expression of the fears of a public that has not even begun to understand their own society?

I move this motion on behalf of Labour Party. I strongly urge the Government to go further than the Minister for Justice's welcome. He said he generally welcomed the report. I urge them to prepare a time scale for the implementation of its main proposals in the short term in the interest of those in prison.

I would like formally to second the proposal and reserve the right to enter into the debate later.

I welcome the opportunity to make my contribution to this debate. The report is a very comprehensive one of 360 pages. I feel there is no way that all the matters dealt with could be covered in a contribution of 15 minutes. I propose to take some the points in the report and make my comments on them. I would hope that all the recommendations of the report would be taken care of by the Minister within a reasonable time scale, as Senator Michael D. Higgins has said.

I am not very knowledgable in the area of prison reform. I am interested in it. More precisely I am interested in the human beings, the people who are in the prisons. A decent standard should be available to them. Their dignity should be considered. I recall in the late fifties when occasionally I went on the weekend retreat in Rathfarnham to the Jesuits. It was a wonderful experience in many ways. The food was good. There was central heating. Very comfortable beds. A psychiatrist to advise people who wanted advice. When people were leaving on the Monday morning an envelope was left on a breakfast plate so that people who took part could make some contribution. If they did not feel like it, they might not make a contribution. I recall sometime afterwards the late Brendan Behan writing that he was in a very bad way until he discovered the Jesuit retreat house at Rathfarnham and he could have a luxury week end for nothing.

None of us would want to get that kind of set up in the prisons — to make it that attractive. But I feel that a reasonable standard should be provided. That is something that is dealt with in this report and which I hope to comment on. I would like to quote from page 26, paragraph 2.73. It states:

The Committee shares the Government's obvious concern that the upward trend in the cost of the prison system be curbed and has indicated in Chapter 143 the unacceptable addition to capital and current costs which could arise unless a policy of limiting prisoner numbers by such means as fewer committals, shorter sentences and shorter periods in custody is put into operation. The effect of the Committee's recommendations in relation to these critical factors has been assessed in Chapter 13 and is substantial. Further raising of the standard remission would give scope for increased curtailment of present numbers.

Paragraph 2.74 states:

The proper yardstick for measuring the financial implications of adopting recommendations and policies which would obviate an increase in prisoner numbers is that, for every 100 fewer new prisoners there will be a saving to public funds of a capital outlay of £12.7 million and an annual running cost of £3.8 million at (1985 prices).

I know that cost is a serious consideration, but it is not the only consideration. We are dealing here with tragedies in human lives. Obviously, any improvement as regards having fewer people in our prisons would be a benefit to society.

I also wonder if prison and imprisonment changes anyone for the better. I am sure there must be some survey that would give this information. Like Senator M.D. Higgins, I would ask if it is an appropriate response. He feels it is an incredibly inhuman response and that only those very bruised by society are committed to prisons. We know that many people are vulnerable at different stages in their lives and, perhaps, a little help at some time would assist people in this area of crime. There was a saying that we were taught in our school days: "There but for the grace of God go I". There is good in all those people. I am wondering is imprisonment the proper response. Does it change people for the better? I am sure that there are some inherently evil people that it may be difficult to change and in some of the crime that is committed at the present time we can see this. Recently in County Meath three young thugs broke into a bungalow, set it on fire and then attempted to set the lady on fire. They also threatened to cut off her fingers if they could not get the rings on her hands. There must be something inherently evil in that situation. I could understand there being one lunatic, one such criminal, but three of them together is difficult to understand. For the majority of people I believe that there is something good in all of us.

The committee's terms of reference were very wide. They are mentioned in the report. They are abbreviated on page 8. It states:

2.1 The Committee's terms of reference may reasonably be interpreted to mean that a solution is being sought to the following major problems:

(1) The growth in crime and the demand for prison accommodation;

(2) The shortcomings in the facilities and services for prisoners;

(3) The inadequacy and unsuitability of much of the present prison accommodation;

(4) Unsatisfactory relations between Department, prison managements and staff;

(5) The escalating cost of providing and maintaining prisons and places of detention.

In Chapter 2 the report deals with the growth in crime and in demand for prison accommodation. It points out the serious situation which should be deplored that there has been a pronounced growth of crime in recent decades. Much of this was in the form of offences against property such as burglaries and thefts of motor vehicles. Although property crimes not involving violence have predominated, serious crimes resulting in personal injury and even in killings have escalated alarmingly. That is something with which we must all be concerned. This is stated categorically in the report. I assume it must be correct and that it was researched and the figures must be there to bear this out. These serious crimes include robbery, rape and attacks on elderly people. The growth of crime has been overwhelmingly an urban phenomenon and crime is becoming increasingly a full time, organised affair. It goes on to state that:

The growth in crime and in the demand for prison accommodation can be dealt with effectively only by: preventing and curbing crime; confining the penalty of imprisonment to more appropriate cases and reducing the length of stay in prison.

These are three ways that any reasonable person would understand and would come to mind immediately when considering the situation. With regard to prevention and curbing of crime, it states:

There is need for continuous research into the causes of crime.

This is something I think that should not need to be emphasised. In every area and in every profession one of the most important considerations is keeping abreast of developments and continuous research. In most professions it is important to spend the equivalent of half a day reading up to keep abreast of developments. This is something that would have been done, should have been done and must have been done in many areas. There has undoubtedly been a widespread lowering of behavioural standards, which is something I am sure we would all deplore. It is stated without qualification in the report that: "Not all crime can be attributed to social deprivation or disadvantage, however, nor can social conditions be regarded as according a licence for wrong-doing." These are two very important statements.

"Not all crime can be attributed to social deprivation": This is true and there are many people who have come through life in very deprived circumstances and have not resorted to crime. On the other hand, I am sure we would all agree that social conditions should not be regarded as according a licence for wrong-doing.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator has one minute to conclude.

I should like to refer to alcohol which is covered very comprehensively in this report. Alcoholism is the source of many crimes. I am not against alcohol. Alcohol can play an important part in its proper place. Alcohol solves no problem but brings about many other problems. Alcohol is and has been the curse of this country. I would like to have the opportunity of reading the parts of the report which deal with alcohol and drugs, but as my time has run out I will conclude on that note. I thank the committee for such a comprehensive and full report. I hope that the recommendations will be incorporated by the Minister within a comparatively short time.

I welcome the opportunity of speaking on this motion:

That Seanad Éireann welcomes the enlightened and practical prison reforms proposed in the Whitaker Committee Report, and calls on the Government to implement the Report as a matter of urgency.

While I do not go along with the entire wording of the report and while in my limited experience I would not readily welcome all the recommendations in the report nevertheless I think that the work that our former colleague, Mr. Whitaker, and his committee have put into this indepth study merits the attention of all of us who have the opportunity of making an input in this very important if difficult area of public administration.

At the outset, I should like to compliment the Minister and the Department for the continuing improvement to the regimes in the business at present. It is difficult to know in these changing times what roles the prisons should have. The question has already been posed: do prison or custodial sentences change people? That is a pertinent question. We have an obligation to protect the public from offenders, especially from people who are now given to committing the most outrageous crimes, especially crimes not only against property but against persons themselves.

This is an excellent report. It reflects a huge amount of study. In forming this review committee on the penal system, the Minister set out very clear terms of reference. The committee was asked:

(a) to examine the law in regard to imprisonment and related areas with a view to establishing whether (i) a reduction in the number of persons being committed and (ii) a shortening of the periods of committal generally and/or the periods served can be achieved.

(b) to evaluate the adequacy, capacity and range of the existing accommodation for prisoners particularly for female prisoners and juvenile detainees and the planned additions and improvements to it,

(c) to examine all aspects of the regimes observed in the institutions and the facilities available to prisoners and detainees on their release from custody,

(i) the number and deployment of prison service staff,

(ii) the management structure relating to the operation of institutions,

(iii) the recruitment and training of Prison Service staff,

(iv) staff management relations in the prison system

(d) to make recommendations.

That is a fairly heavy workload and it is very appropriate that it should have been carried out, more especially when we look at the physical prisons we have. In the main they were provided by Queen Victoria; at least the one in Portlaoise must have been provided at that time and it is in fairly good order as it is but at the same time it is an old building. While it is secure, it is still perhaps a hundred years old and so the Minister has a difficulty there.

The first thing that I should like to see the Government providing the Minister with is adequate finance in order to enable him to improve, construct, or remodel the existing prison facilities. I think that is a matter of urgency. There is not much use in anyone coming into the House and telling the Minister what to do unless there is a demand that adequate finance should be provided and I think it should be provided as a matter of urgency.

We have had over the last couple of years a great increase in the number of people committed to custodial prison terms. From 1972 to 1982 the prison population, perhaps, was static or in the main only rose by a couple of hundred, roughly around 1,000 in the early seventies to 1,200 in 1982, but from 1982 to this year the figures have gone from 1,200 to approximately 2,000 and that sharp increase in a short time must surely put additional strains on the facilities available.

The genial rogue who is caught and has to serve a prison sentence is a thing of the past and the people who break the law now are, in the main, people who show very little humanity when they are committing those crimes and, in addition, many of these people have drugs and are on drugs related offences. There is a necessity to convert a safe place for custodial sentences for to deal specifically with drug offenders or people who have drug problems. It is something that the Minister should try to take on board as a matter of great urgency.

In addition, there is a tendency in our country, especially where the media are concerned, to show great humanity and consideration for the prisoners. While, in most cases, the unfortunate victims make the headlines when the crime is committed, once the excitement dies down everybody wants to see these poor prisoners treated with kid gloves, as if they were not serving sentences which were imposed as a direct result of their irresponsibility.

Let me just make a few remarks about Portlaoise prison with which I am relatively familiar being a visitor to that institution. I think that if you are to go by media coverage over the last number of years you would be inclined to write off the prison officers and the prison staff as people who were not doing a good job or who were truculent or were creating problems or whatever. I come from a county that has traditionally been the recruiting ground for a high percentage of people who opted to work out their lives in the prison service and from my personal experience I can say that the prison officers I meet — and we have about 300 in the Portlaoise area — are just an ordinary cross-section of run of the mill people. The people I see working when I go into the jail are courteous and do an excellent job. They are dedicated and I think they carry out their duties with a tremendous amount of humanity. They do a difficult job under difficult circumstances and they deserve a fair amount of recognition for that.

We have a couple of main problems down there and the report itself, if it lacks, certainly lacks in the area that while it mentions the difficult situation in Portlaoise specifically, it does not really appreciate the difficulties that the staff, the Minister and the Department have in their work in the interest of the security of the State where Portlaoise is concerned. In many of the recommendations, whether there is sex discrimination or not in relation to the appointment of staff or whatever, a clear exception should be made. If there was complete disregard for sex discrimination in a place like Portlaoise I do not think it would last overnight. We are dealing with a different kind of prisoner there and the Minister must retain for himself the responsibility and the obligation for ensuring the security of an institution where there are subversive prisoners.

The report deals with recruitment, and Chapter 2.59 deals with the appointment to governor and assistant governor grades. The recommendation is that these should be brought in from outside the service. That would be a pity because in the service the number of prison officers at about 1,500 or 2,000 people is not very high and unless there is a definite ladder of promotion where people can aspire to a job at or near the top there is not much incentive. We would do the prison service a great disservice if we started bringing in people at the top from the outside. That is one recommendation I would not like to see followed through. That does not mean that the Department, and the Minister, should not extend to people who are deserving of promotion the training that is prescribed for the people who are promoted from chief to assistant governor.

I should like to take this opportunity of mentioning Baladde House, a building that looks very well in Portlaoise on the main road. It has excellent accommodation and I suggest to the Minister that he might consider at this stage converting that for short-term prisoners, first offenders or those in for traffic convictions or something like that. I do not think it would cost that much to convert that place and make it relatively safe. That could be done by putting something on the windows, replacing some internal doors and putting a wall or a protective fence around it. In addition, it should be part of the Portlaoise complex so that it could be complementary to the general prison in Portlaoise. It is the fastest way that I can see of easing the prison population problem.

Another very pressing problem is the need for a small psychiatric unit in Portlaoise. Right across the road is St. Fintans and there would not be any great difficulty in staffing it from there. It would certainly keep a safe service within the prison. In addition we need a few beds for ordinary medical cases because it is just not on for high security prisoners to be put in the general hospital in Portlaoise. It is not in the interests of patients or visitors to the general hospital to have heavily armed police or soldiers in the corridors, on the roof or surrounding areas of the hospital. It puts everybody on edge and it is most unfair to the population of County Laois to have that continue. In addition the cost this year so far of security for the few prisoners that have been in the general hospital has gone into six figures. I would appeal to the Minister to provide appropriate facilities within the prison complex in Portlaoise as a matter of urgency. Indeed it would actually save the Department money.

It is appropriate that we should be discussing this report on a day when there has been a lot of controversy about activities in prisons and in particular the manner in which a prisoner was allowed to leave Mountjoy. It is suggested that rather than being thrown on to the streets of Dublin he should have been sent for care and attention to a hospital outside the prison system. It has been suggested today that a prisoner who has a very severe physical problem was allowed on to the streets of Dublin without any care or attention being given to what would happen to him when he went out, that he got no help from the people who were in charge of his welfare in the prison, from the medical system in the prison, and it is suggested that he could now be a danger to his own health and equally he could create problems for other people because of his physical condition. It has been suggested that there was a breakdown in the policy of the prisons towards those whom they are releasing into society again. It has been suggested that a person who is severely ill was not given the type of help that anybody would need, whether they were leaving a prison, a boarding school or their home. In this instance a person who was in prison for committing a very serious offence and who had a serious illness did not get the type of help that one would expect in the situation which arose.

The report of the Whitaker Committee is very welcome and it comes at a time when we have many problems in Irish society. When there is an increase in crime it is often the war cry of people that the offenders should be locked up and the keys thrown away. Unfortunately locking up people and throwing away the keys does nothing to help the people who have been involved in particular crimes nor does it help the society in which they have been living and in which they have been trying to survive. The report addresses itself quite rightly to the problems we have which in the end put people into prison. The problems of society in general are reflected in the size of our prison population. I am not too sure who initially decided that by imprisoning people one would get a better society but I am sure the idea behind imprisonment is a long way from the current situation where prison seems to be the only answer.

It is very hard for anybody who has never been in prison to understand what imprisonment means. We should all lock ourselves into a room occasionally and have somebody throw away the key for 24 or 48 hours so that we could get some idea what it is like to lose one's freedom.

The lack of freedom is probably the greatest punishment a person can suffer. Once a person is locked up and has to live with a regime which is enforced on him by the organisation of the unit he is in, all his freedoms go, fredom of thought, freedom of action and so on. Too often prisons, just like hospitals, are run so that the organisation of the day-to-day feeding and bedding down is done in an orderly manner. That is possibly one of the things that creates the most problems. I would not like to have to stay in a locked room. I would always like to have access to a door in a house or in a building. I can see why a number of people who are imprisoned can, when released, have major psychological problems which are not being addressed. The problem of the imprisonment and the problems associated with release are not being looked at. This report is a policy for prisons and looks at the system and why we have a growth in the crime rate, the shortcomings in facilities and the inadequacy of the physical prisons, but there is not enough in this report about the psychological overhauls that have to take place.

Over the past number of years we have had a growth in the crime rate. I heard somebody on the radio say this morning that crimes, generally speaking, are committed by people from the lower social strata. Of course he was talking about particular crimes. He was talking about crimes of violence, crimes which leave people physically abused rather than crimes which mentally abuse people. What we would like to see is an analysis of the people who are in prison, and I suppose the person who was speaking on the radio would be proven right in saying that 95 per cent of the people who are in prisons would be from the socially deprived areas, whereas I suppose 60 per cent of the crimes would be committed by people who would not be from the lower order in terms of access to means. District justices and judges tend to send people from a working class or unemployed background to jail whereas they do not address themselves in the same manner to people who are not of the working or unemployed class. It does seem that on too many occasions people who go to court who have come from ‘good' backgrounds are not sent to jail. It has been suggested that the fact of appearing in court is enough to stop them from doing anything untoward in the future. But in fact that is not what happens. People from reasonably well off families have gone into court again and again just as people from deprived backgrounds have gone to court again and again and there is no way that a district justice or a judge in 20 minutes or an hour in a court could assess psychologically what a particular defendant would do if he got away with the crime he had committed or if he was put on probation rather than put in jail.

The growth in crime generally speaking has been against property. I do not think that crimes against the person are on the increase. I suppose it is reasonable for somebody who has no property not to think very much of the property of somebody else. I am not suggesting that they should feel that way but I am suggesting that it is an attitude that could be taken by somebody who has nothing. He may feel that he should take from somebody who, he feels, has a lot.

There have been horrific crimes against the person, but I would not suggest they are on the increase. Crimes against property are. As long as there is inequity in the distribution of property one will always have crimes against property. I suppose that is a term that one should not really use because there should be no such thing as a crime against property; I suppose one should say that it is a crime against the owner of property.

In this report there is too much emphasis being placed on the cost of keeping people in jail. It is suggested that it costs £29,000 per annum to keep a person in jail at present and that this money could be better used in trying to rehabilitate or trying to change the system so that you would not have as many people in jail. Apparently there are 1,865 people in jail at present and it is costing £42.6 million to keep them there. That is a lot of money. A sum of £42.6 million invested in rehabilitation of people who have been in trouble would be a very small amount of money, but £42.6 million to keep 1,865 people incarcerated in inhumane overcrowded and archaic conditions should not be on in the Ireland of 1985. Our jails are overcrowded. There is an absolutely minimal attempt to rehabilitate people who go to jail. There is not nearly sufficient provision for education in our prisons, not is there anything like a humane attitude towards prisoners. If somebody goes to jail, why should his wife and children be tarred with the same brush? Why should they not have rights to go into prison or to have some area where they could meet and talk? This does not mean that there are not people who should be incarcerated but they should be incarcerated in areas where they would have help. They should have psychiatric help, they should have medical help and they should be helped to readjust themselves in society when they get out.

I would agree with Senator McDonald that the prison officers are in a very difficult situation. They work under conditions which are not conducive to normal life for themselves or for the people they are supposed to help. We must look at the situation particularly in Portlaoise where there is a tripartite operation going on, where there are prison officers inside, and then the Garda and the Army are also involved.

They are all doing an excellent job.

I would ask that the Army people who are involved in support of the Garda and the prison officers should have equal rights in terms of payment for service in these prisons. I welcome the report. It is the first step in an attempt to highlight the problems in the prison service and I sincerely hope that some of the proposals will be put into effect as soon as possible. I would sincerely hope that in 12 months' time we will have far fewer people in the type of prison we have and that a better effort will be made to help those who get into trouble whether it is because they were born in the wrong place at the wrong time or because of their association with people with whom they should not be involved. I sincerely hope that the Minister will have regard to everything in this report and I am quite confident that he will.

I welcome the report and I voice my appreciation of the competence of the people involved in this. Of course, this could not be realised without a very good back-up service and I extend my thanks to them also.

The report itself shows great compassion towards those affected by the penal system, those who have to give effect to it and those who work within it. It also shows great understanding of the needs of the penal system itself and it does so having regard to the many changes in society which we have witnessed in recent years. Not only does it have regard to the many changes in society but it looks at it in the sense of taking stock of the transformation of Irish society over recent decades. In its terms of reference it had regard to the widespread deterioration in behavioural patterns and it came up with suggestions and ideas which are under examination now. There is an acknowledgment in it that the accommodation in prisons is inadequate.

The question of prison accommodation is dealt with in the context of examining the possibility of preventing and curbing crime, confining the penalty of imprisonment to more appropriate cases and reducing the length of stay in prisons. It is good to see the committee's suggestions regarding the length of stay in prisons because the Minister has been subjected to a great deal of criticism — wrongly applied, in my view, over the question of early release. The Minister has explained this matter in the other House. He is vindicated somewhat by the committee on the question of early release. On the other hand, the Minister acknowledged the need for more prison space by opening Spike Island. I suppose the Minister had in mind that the crime rate would increase somewhat and that the crime detection rate would increase following the enactment of the Criminal Justice Act. The Prisoners Rights Organisation backed that view. I do not know whether the committee were correct in their forecast that the crime rate would double over the next two years. They say it has increased by 40 per cent since 1982. I am not in a position to challenge this. The opening of Spike Island is indicative of the fact that the Minister recognised the problem of prison space. He has also taken some other action regarding conditions in prisons but I will not go into that now.

On the question of overcrowding, St. Patrick's Institution in Cork which has a capacity for 120 prisoners had 320, according to the records I looked up. St. Patrick's Institution in Dublin, with a capacity for 229 prisoners, had 242; Mountjoy Prison, with a capacity for 420 prisoners, had 519; Arbour Hill, with a capacity for 99 prisoners, had 123. There is clear evidence of the need for more prison space. The committee, in bringing in the report, have had regard to this, not only in the sense of recommending development in the area of prisons but in the sense of dealing with the question of non-serious crimes in a different light and applying different types of punishment.

The total cost to the taxpayer for the battle against crime is £300 million. The prisons system cannot be taken in isolation; it has to be examined in the overall context. There is the argument that it costs £29,000 to keep a prisoner for a year. This is a substantial sum of money. The figures are difficult to relate to each other. The report makes recommendations that would not only assist in the problem of prison accommodation but would also assist in dealing with the overall problem of crime.

The report of the National Economic and Social Council on crime and vandalism is another interesting one. We, in the Labour Party have been argued against because we have made the claim that there is a relationship between, crime, unemployment and participation in education. Not everybody accepted our view, but at least the NESC report accepted it. The report analysed the 1981 figures and pointed to the two main characteristics of persons brought before the criminal justice system that year. For example, one in four was 16 years or less, one in three was 17 years to 20 years and only 42 per cent were 21 years of age or older. In each age group the majority were unemployed, unskilled or semi-skilled labourers. On the second point in this context the NESC report stated that only 37 per cent of those aged 17 years or less were still in school, while 54 per cent in that age group were listed as unemployed; eight in every ten persons in the 17-20 age group were unemployed; the remainder were either in unskilled or semi-skilled manual work. Similarily in the 21 age group 76 per cent were listed as unemployed.

The picture becomes even more bleak when the analysis is confined to the inner city offenders. The syndrome of unemployment and early school leaving is very pronounced. This is not new. As one who was born and reared in the north inner city, I know this is not new. It is a different type of crime and the emphasis is different; but the idea of crime being related to unemployment and lack of education is not new. In the inner city there are in the region of 700 relapse offenders who continually come back through the criminal justice system. There is a correlation and we should not bury our heads in the sand in regard to this situation.

There are in the region of 250,000 unemployed. Over 50 per cent of the population are under 30 years of age. We must realise that it is a serious situation. Where the committee make recommendations to make this problem less acute the Minister should grasp them with both hands. While he may not be able to do anything immediately about the unemployment situation, we trust that the initiative taken in relation to grants and so on may lead to some alleviation of it. Development in the inner cities has been undertaken by the various corporations to make these areas more lived in. If the fear of employers to set up industries in the inner cities could be overcome, then I think we could deal with that problem

I do not want to go on too long but just in the last minute or so, I want to say that a question here that we should not overlook when we are dealing with this report is the detection of crime. As I understand it, between 1974 and 1983 according to the report on crime by the Commissioner of the Garda Síochána to the Minister for Justice, there was a drop in the detection rate of crime between those years. I do not know what the situation is now and it would not be fair for me to just leave it at that. I would like the Minister to let us know if that situation has changed.

I would like to wind up by saying that my remarks should not be taken as criticising the Minister on the ground that the drop in the detection rate is due to the cutback in overtime. That is not the position as the Minister has provided money in the Building on Reality programme for overtime for the Garda. That is not an argument and I would not like to hear it coming back as an argument. Detection of crime has to be associated with other things. We are talking about a cost of £300 million to the taxpayer; we are talking about people who are deprived; we are talking about a system that is generally causing havoc in our society. Generally speaking, if we look at the report, there is a great deal in it that can make us advance very quickly indeed. The Minister welcomed the report. In his capacity as Minister he probably has to be a little cautious about it, but my own view is that it deserves more than just a welcome.

Debate adjourned.

Would the acting Leader of the House please indicate when it is proposed to sit again?

The House will sit at 10.30 a.m. tomorrow.

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