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Seanad Éireann debate -
Friday, 19 Dec 1986

Vol. 115 No. 11

Income Tax (Amendment) Bill, 1986 [Certified Money Bill]: Second and Subsequent Stages.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

This Bill is being introduced at short notice because it is felt necessary to clarify the position in relation to the definition of income in computing tax liability. In recent days a succession of claims has been submitted to the Revenue Commissioners to the effect that health contributions, the youth employment levy and the income levy are deductible in computing income for the purposes of determining tax liability. This is not the case and never has been the case and, to put the issue beyond any doubt, it is considered desirable to introduce legislation at this point.

To put the matter in perspective, if the claims being made were allowed in respect of all taxpayers, the potential revenue loss to the Exchequer could be of the order of £360 million. This, of course, is out of the question. As I mentioned earlier, a large number of claims were submitted in recent days. Given this volume of activity and the general uncertainty that has arisen, it was considered appropriate on this occasion to remove any doubts about the legal position at this point. I do not know why the matter should have gathered such momentum in such a short period. There were rumours apparently that legislation was being prepared. There was presumably a widespread and mistaken belief that somehow claims made in advance of legislation might be allowable. There is no basis whatever for this. Much of the activity that has been engaged in was fruitless.

The technical background to the Bill is as follows. Section 110 of the Income Tax Act, 1967, provides that duties or other sums payable or chargeable by virtue of any statute on income which is assessed to tax under Schedule E shall be deductible for income tax purposes. The effect of this was to allow up to 1973 the deduction for income tax purposes of contributions made under certain statutory pension schemes. The law relating to pension schemes was comprehensively revised in the Finance Act, 1972, and by virtue of section 17 of that Act the contributions under all statutory schemes are deductible for income for tax purposes. There is no need to place any further continued reliance on the words in the 1967 Act which this Bill will remove. Pensions are already protected by the provisions of section 17 of the 1972 Act. The present legislation, therefore, does not in any way affect the deductibility of pension contributions for tax purposes. I want to emphasise this.

The Income Tax Act, 1967, provision became redundant following the introduction of the 1972 legislation. The claims to which I have referred attempt to use this redundant 1976 provision to support a case for allowing against income tax, the health contributions and other levies introduced subsequently such as the youth employment levy and the income tax levy. This was, of course, never the intention of the framework of the 1967 Act. What this Bill is simply doing is confirming this by removing the relevant and redundant provision of the Income Tax Act, 1967, lest there be any confusion or unduly favoured activity in this area.

Since the introduction of the health contribution and the levies, the clear and unequivocal understanding has been that these charges fall directly on income. They have been so applied in all instances and taxation policy has been framed on this basis. I am satisfied that all sides of the House are in entire agreement about this and share my view that, in the event of doubt about such a critical issue, it is totally appropriate to confirm the position in legislation. This legislation will remove any doubt or confusion that has arisen.

I should mention, of course, that the income levy has been terminated with effect from 5 April 1986. The claims being submitted, however, attempt to open the issue of deductibility for income tax purposes for a number of years past. Potentially several hundred thousand taxpayers are involved. The health contribution and the levies have made a big contribution to the State revenues since their introduction. The health contribution was introduced under the Health Contributions Act, 1979, the youth employment levy is yielding revenue since 1982 and the income levy has operated in the period 1983 to April 1986. Over these periods the total revenue yield from these sources was up to £950 million. Were deductibility to be allowed, it is clear that the revenue loss would be of such an order as to require fundamental changes in taxation policy. At the end of the day the average taxpayer would be no better off and in the meantime considerable confusion would have been generated.

There are a few other points I would like to advert to before concluding my introductory statement. Senators will perhaps ask: is it fair that we should have a levy on gross income when the average taxpayer, certainly the PAYE taxpeyer, never actually receives the gross income, he just receives the net income and yet he is levied on the gross figure? It is open to argument that we should not and we would have a simpler tax system if we did not have that. If you had a provision in law for the future which allowed deductibility of levies — and it would be simplier still if you did not have levies — if you raised the same amount of money, you would have to have the levies at a higher rate. If you had no levies to raise the same amount of money you would have to have income tax at a much higher rate than it is at present. The same differences are there, it is six of one and half dozen of another. If I were talking about an ideal world I would have to say I would prefer a system in which there were no levies and such money as you would have to raise was raised by one single simple tax on income, but we have to take the situation as we find it and deal with it as we find it. These levies have been introduced since 1979 on the basis that they were on gross income. Everybody paying them at the time understood that they were levies on gross income. They may not have liked having to pay and they may have objected to it, but they understood that legal position. All this is doing is clarifying and underlining what was the common understanding of the legal position.

That, of course, brings up another point which Senators might want to raise in the debate — the idea that by doing this at this stage, even though people did not think they had this claim and by making it quite clear that they did not at this stage, we were somehow or other introducing retrospective legislation in a sense that could be objected to as being parliamentary practice. I have set Senators minds at rest on that point. There is no question of this being open to such an objection and I will explain why. The criticism of restrospective legislation in this area is grounded on the principle that tax legislation should not be introduced which would do either of two things — impose a tax charge on a taxpayer for a previous year, being a charge of which the taxpayer was unaware at that time or secondly, deny a taxpayer relief for an earlier year, being a relief to which the taxpayer thought he had full entitlement at that time. As has been clearly established, nobody thought that any such deductibility existed at that time so we are not taking from anybody anything they thought they were entitled to, at the time when they were ordering their tax affairs. That being the case, there can be no objection on grounds of retrospectiveness so far as this legislation is concerned.

Another point that might be raised is with regard to the general question — and it is not directly relevant to this Bill — of avoidance of taxation and evasion of taxation. I would like to underline here in the Seanad as I have done in the other House my view and the view of the Government in regard to tax evasion. We regard it as unacceptable that there is still a substantial amount of tax evasion and considerable amounts of arrears of tax owing and collectible but not being collected. I announced last week a series of measures that are being considered to deal with this problem and I also set out a number of measures that are already in effect which over time will serve to catch up on tax evasion. For example, there is now a penalty representing a percentage of the ultimately determined tax liability which can be levied on taxpayers who are late putting in their return.

One of the big reasons for the buildup of arrears of tax is that people do not put in returns. In order to get the returns from them, the Revenue issue inflated assessments designed to frighten them into tax compliance. These assessments are then used by people who want to make a case if the tax system is not working as a basis for saying that this money is actually due which, as we all know, is not due at all except a very small proportion when the accounts are actually put in. The use of large estimated assessments as a means of getting people to make returns is not a good principle.

My anxiety is to move our tax system over to a system of self-assessment where people are obliged to make their own returns at their own peril if they do not, and that there is not the same need for the Revenue to come along and issue estimated assessments which give a completely misleading picture of the amount of tax actually outstanding. That would serve two purposes.

First, by replacing the obligation on the taxpayer to put in the return, it would relieve many Revenue staff from the routine drudgery, of going through everybody's return and pursuing every individual taxpayer which diverts skilled people away from concentrating on the real areas of abuse. Secondly, it would get away from the problem of those estimated assessments which give this totally misleading picture of the amount of taxes outstanding and cause great envy and misunderstanding between, in particular, the self-employed section of the community and the rest of the community where there is a belief that there is much more tax outstanding than there really is.

I am not saying that there is no abuse among self-employed people, but it is entirely wrong to categorise an entire group of people as being participants in tax abuse. What we need to do to protect the legitimate tax-paying self-employed trader from unfair competition from those who are not paying their tax and also to protect the PAYE sector from unfair treatment vis-á-vis others who are avoiding their tax, is to stamp out tax evasion in the interests of fair play for everybody wherever it arises. That is the objective of the Government.

Clearly we could not allow any doubt as to the position in regard to these income levies to which I am now referring because it is in respect of money that has already been collected and spent. The money has been spent in the areas of the health services and youth employment service and, in the case of the income levy, generally on all sorts of services provided by the State. The money has been spent and if suddenly that money had to be paid back we would find ourselves in an impossible situation so far as the finances of the country are concerned. That is why all sides in the other House were prepared to agree this legislation in order that the revenue of the State and the services which everybody enjoys and needs in our community and which depend on the revenue of the State could be protected. That is the very reasonable purpose of this legislation. I hope this explanation will commend itself and the Bill to the Seanad.

I would like to assure the Minister that we on this side of the House will support this Bill. In recent times we have had decisions taken in court where legislation has been challenged. It is a warning to both Houses of the Oireachtas to ensure that legislation which goes through the Houses is watertight. We cannot afford to let legislation go through on a fire brigade ad hoc type basis.

Bills have gone through this House on which there were 50 and 60 amendments but the legislation was put through and teased out properly. It goes to show again the importance of the Seanad where time is spent but never wasted in teasing out these Bills. Yet, there are politicians, Members of one House or the other at present, stating that if they return to power they would abolish the Seanad. When we see the necessity for a Bill like this being introduced where there is so much money involved, it begs one to wonder why these people are talking the way they are. When I first read about the matter in the papers and the effect it could have on the country, I asked myself who is running the country? Is it the courts, or is it the Government? We should ensure that legislation is properly drafted and effective enough to stand on its own feet.

The Minister mentioned the taxation system in general. I have spoken on this on numerous occasions. We have an archaic type of tax system. It is a very demanding type of system and people are afraid of letters they receive from the Revenue Commissioners. The demands are unfair. People have thrown these letters in the fire and then they are in real trouble.

I want to refer to the commercial sector who are carrying the can for taxes in this country. I am one of the people in business who would be affected by the youth employment and other levies. The commercial sector in addition to having to pay income tax are responsible for PAYE, PRSI, commercial rates, water rates, refuse charges and insurance. In addition they are under pressure from the banks. The commercial sector is overlevied and overburdened. They have to operate on the basis of leaving over some payments in any month in order to pay others. In business, new standards are demanded by local authorities, by fire officers and the health boards and these must be met so we have a very heavily burdened commercial sector. Despite this they have met their commitments and met them well. Some day somebody will challenge the constitutionality of the commercial sector on the matter of paying rates. In my own county, there are 1,000 people paying commercial rates and they are carrying the can for the whole county. As well as paying the commercial rates, they have other levies and demands to meet.

I support this measure. It is a warning to both Houses of the Oireachtas to ensure that legislation does not go through on an ad hoc fire brigade type of basis.

This is the Minister's last chance to play Santa Claus to the country.

I would not be as pessimistic as that.

It was a golden opportunity and a very tempting one too.

I will have a few more golden opportunities, I hope.

I am delighted to hear that. It is the best news I have heard today. I will be looking forward to that.

I share the sentiments of Senator Lynch when he talks about this as a warning to all of us. At times, we complain in this House when we have legislation almost foisted on us — not this Bill because we realise the reason for it. It is appropriate that legislation would be properly teased out. Our record will show that legislation which was initiated here has stood the test of the other House and indeed any constitutional change that has emanated afterwards. Obviously, the removal of this section should have taken place in the Income Tax Act, 1972 having been left in in the Income Tax Act, 1967 which was there for the specific purpose of dealing with other deductions, superannuation, pension funds and so on.

About 12 months ago I had a feeling that there was a problem in this area. The problem arose with the response of the farming organisations to health levies and youth employment levies. They have argued for a long time on the issue of what type of income they should pay these levies on. When I was chairman of a health board and a local health committee, I brought in the IFA and the ICMSA representatives to discuss the £1.5 million they owed to the South Eastern Health Board at the time on the basis that we were having difficulties trying to keep the health services going and to ask what was the legitimate reason for the non-payment of these levies. They argued that the levy was being placed on gross income after deduction of certain allowable expenses. I kept on reminding them that PAYE workers pay these levies on their gross incomes, not on the income left after the payment of tax. As a result of the dialogue, out of the £1.5 million that was due, we collected about £600,000. We then got a commitment from the Minister for Health that any further moneys due on the health levies section could be retained in each health board area to maintain the level of health services. That stimulated a further responsibility by people in that section. They were the first to realise that these levies were in some way incorrectly stated in the Act. It was difficult to explain to them that they were levies on income and not levies on income after tax. The argument being made in court, I understand, is that people are looking for the payment of these levies to be refunded to them on the basis that they could charge these expenses against expenses towards income tax. It is obvious that the legislation needed to be tightened up. It is obvious that the money has been taken and spent and that, despite his promise to be generous to us in the new year he does not have this kind of money to give back. As a result of that we are faced with the dilemma of having to pass this legislation——

I was thinking of the 1988 budget as well.

You are an optimist. I wish the Minister the best of luck and a happy new year.

It is very sad that the Minister has come to this decision at this stage, and that it took a massive number of claims to bring in such legislation at this moment. I would have throught that when this legislation was being passed in the first place, the levies would have been on net incomes. What has happened shows, in effect, the great burden of responsibility on the PAYE earner because any move has a massive effect on the Exchequer. We are talking about something like £360 million. This debate will be moved elsewhere but it shows the amount of money that is collected from PAYE earners and the massive burden of taxation that is on them. The money has been spent.

Senator Ferris referred to the self-employed. The amount of money that is collected in these levies from the self-employed, is very small. I do not think it is anything like the proportions Senator Ferris mentioned. I have never got a reminder about a health levy and I am self-employed.

The Minister spoke about tax collection and the amount of tax owing. We all agree that there are massive amounts of taxes owing but the method of collection under which I as a practising accountant operate and the method under which the Department operate are two different things. There is no human face in the Minister's Department. They lay down the law and that is the way it is to be. Many companies have been forced into liquidation because of the hard nosed measure the Minister's Department operate under. You go to the Revenue Commissioners if, for instance, because of pressure of business, you owe them some money. You try to make an agreement or deal with them and instead of trying to be reasonable, they are absolutely merciless. They have forced many companies out of business. That is some of the contribution the Minister's Department have made to the unemployment. I know of small companies who have been forced into liquidation because of such stupidity. A schoolboy of eight years of age would know that money cannot be got from someone who has none. Instead of agreeing on the payment of a lesser amount so that one might continue to operate and keep people in employment, the commissioners adopt a hard nose, crazy situation. In this way they put the company out of business and never collect any money from it. He also talks about the assessments.

The Revenue very often finds itself in competition with the banks in regard to the collection of money. In the case of the Revenue, it is collecting money that belongs to the people. The Revenue should not allow itself to be in the position that the banks get paid but the tax does not get paid.

If the banks know they can only get a certain amount of money they will take a certain amount of money. If the Revenue find they will get only a certain amount of money, they will not accept it.

They do not. The reality of the situation is that they do not. Probably the ideal situation would be that they do, but they do not. Any dealings I have had with them have ended up very badly. I know four people who are on assistance which means that they are destitute and I have bills for them on assessment for about £200,000. There is no way the Revenue will write it off. They have put these people on appeal and they expect them to come to appeals. You tell them that they cannot afford to go to the appeals because they are actually destitute and you ask the Revenue to please write the bill off but they will not. Once the bill gets into the system it just cannot get out of it. When the Minister refers to the amount of money that is owed by the self-employed he takes account of assessments which is absolutely ludicrous. I agree with the self-assessment basis. That is a very good method of doing the job and relieving the Revenue inspectors and staff to actually review the evasion that is there, and there is massive evasion there. I am sorry it is necessary for this Bill to come in. I would like to ask the Minister how many claims he had and what prompted this?

We did not get time to count them yet.

There must have been numerous claims. They are probably starting to flow in because every PAYE worker I know is asking me about it. They reckon that the Minister owes them about £1,000 each. The money was actually spent on the other side in the case of the water charges and we saw what happened in the High Court with the water charges. We saw what happened with the farmers as far as the rates were concerned. The rates were deemed to be unconstitutional. The fact is that that money has been collected. Probably the courts would agree with the Minister but, what will happen in the future is another debate.

We should be stronger in these areas. We should not have to rush in legislation to stop a situation developing because accountants have seen that there is a loophole in the law and they can use that loophole and see what they can do for the PAYE workers. I ask the Minister to be more vigilant and more open in the actual collection. I said in a previous Seanad debate that he should speak to accountants because they are the people who understand the business climate and the business community and understand what is really happening. There are people who owe massive amounts of money. I know many people who owe in the region of £100,000 and £200,000 and when you add the interest on to it that becomes £300,000. There is no possibility that you could collect that. If you had a business approach and a practical approach to it you could get £50,000 and you could ensure that they would pay their taxes in future and you would ensure that you would have a viable operation. I think the Minister should do that. He said before the competitors would raise objections to that.

To making deals with particular individuals about their taxes.

No; I said it is unfair to competitors if people are evading their tax. If you have two shops in one street and one is paying tax and the other is not, that is completely unfair.

Because of the economic situation and because of the banks these people have got into difficulties. They may have been in business for the past 20 years. They did not get into difficulties because they wanted to get into difficulties, because they put money away; they got into difficulties because of the economic climate. Now they want to get out of those difficulties, and the only way they can do so is to have a proper relationship with the Revenue Commissioners. They cannot have a proper relationship with the Revenue Commissioners because when you go in you are given the law and you are quoted the text verbatim. There is no possibility that they could actually pay. I think the Revenue should accept a reasonable amount of money and accept that these people would pay from then on. I think that would be a very good contribution to the economy and also a contribution to the workers in the country.

I do not know how many mistakes the Minister for Finance has made since he has held this portfolio but I do not think he merits the punishment of surrounding him with a group of accountants for a long time. I have never heard of anything quite as bad as that. That drew me to my feet. I have little more to say, but I think I should say a few things. Basically, this is a matter of interpretation and it is quite obvious that the original Bill was meant to be on gross incomes. The Government's miscalculation may have been bad in the past, but with a sum of £350 million they would not have gone wrong. I do not understand how the courts could interpret it in this way because it was quite obvious what was the Government's intention. What it should indicate to us is that there is a case for a thorough review of the tax system. The fact of the matter is that we have had thorough reviews of the tax systems but they appear to have been ignored. We are continually going to come across problems like this if we insist on a rather cumbersome 1 per cent levy which people do not understand, which is difficult to collect and a lot of people do not pay.

I would be interested to hear what the Minister has to say about the recommendations of the Commission on Taxation. They appear to have been a complete waste of time in that we have not implemented many of them. We have not accepted the basic philosophy behind them and we are still in the same system of taxation as we have always been. The 1 per cent levy raises the problem of the black economy. The Minister might give us some indication of how large the black economy is, not how much legal tax has not been paid, but how much illegal tax is not being collected. I have no estimate of it but I am sure that there is enormous scope in a time of fiscal rectitude for tackling the black economy.

Finally, I would like to make a totally irrelevant plea — before I am ruled out of order — to the Minister not to tax pension funds in the forthcoming budget. Am I out of order in asking the Minister not to tax the pension funds in the forthcoming budget?

It is not relevant to the present debate.

And I was just about to reply to him: I was just going to tell him. I thank the Seanad for its good humoured debate of this measure. Although this is a very serious measure, the debate although in itself appropriate and serious, was also of a kind that put me in good humour for Christmas.

Senator Lynch and Senator Conway referred to court cases in this context. For the sake of clarity, I should point out that there is no court case in this instance and we are not dealing with a matter that is before the courts. We are dealing with claims that are being made at a very initial stage, of people sending in letters about it. To avoid everybody getting involved in the expense of bringing it to court we are making the law clear beyond doubt in advance. That will be helpful to some people.

I was interested in the remarks made by Senator Conway about Revenue taking a pragmatic view of arrears from businesses who are in trouble with their tax. I would like to make two or three points on this although it is probably as much out of order as Senator Ross's astutely-phrased question. First, the Committee of Public Accounts is constantly berating the Revenue Commissioners for failing to collect tax that is due under law. Sometimes the very same politicians in another guise come looking for consideration in particular cases. But in the abstract it has been the constant theme of both the Comptroller and Auditor General and the Committee of Public Accounts that just as money should only be spent in accordance with law, money which is due under law should be collected in accordance with law.

Secondly, in the case of value-added tax and PRSI, if an employer is getting into arrears on those, he is not in fact getting into arrears in respect of his own tax. He is not paying up tax that he collected on behalf of the Revenue from somebody: it was never his money; it was the money of the consumer who paid it to him in order that it be paid to the Revenue in the case of VAT, and money belonging to the employees which he deducted at source in order to give the employees certain rights which the employees expect him to pass on. In that case you are not talking about giving him consideration in regard to his own tax position. You are simply saying that he should not use money that does not belong to him as a means of financing his business. If he needs finance for his business he should go to his bank manager and not use value-added tax or PRSI as a source of finance for the business.

There is, of course, a preparedness on the part of the Revenue Commissioners to be reasonable in regard to taxes actually owed by the company or the individual on his own account if he genuinely cannot pay, although the danger in doing that is, of course, to encourage people to build up arrears. If you do not collect interest on arrears you are in a situation that in real terms people pay less by not paying on time. The interest is only there in order to keep the actual value of the tax up to date. So there must be interest on arrears. Nobody likes to be in a position of having to collect money in these circumstances. I can assure Senators that the Revenue, although they have to administer the law and do so scrupulously, have a human face and try to understand the problems of the taxpayer. Very often the Revenue, in giving advice to somebody to put their tax affairs in order, can frequently save that business, by getting them to put their finances in order while there is still time, rather than allowing debts to pile up to a point where they become irretrievable. Prompt action by the Revenue Commissioners can sometimes benefit the long-term standing of a business rather than be to its detriment.

Senator Ross made reference to the Commission on Taxation and to the fundamental reform of the system. The Government have drawn on the recommendations of the Commission and will continue as will all Governments in the forthcoming Dáil to draw on the excellent reports of that body. It is important to recognise that tax reform in the abstract is something that is easy to get a cheer for, but the specific recommendations of the Commission on Taxation, when looked at individually, are not something that everybody would wish to embrace, either politically or perhaps even from the point of view of their being actually good for the country.

Let me give you an example. A major cut in mortgage interest relief is one of the recommendations. Do we actually want that? The taxation of lump sums paid to people on retirement is another recommendation of the Commission on Taxation. Do we want that? Do we want to tax benefits-in-kind to the extent that if people have a right to park their car in front of their place of employment, they should be paying income tax for that privilege? That is another recommendation for tax reform by the Commission on Taxation. Do we want that? Do we want a single rate of tax to the extent that there would be such a high rate that many low income taxpayers would be paying substantially more than they are paying at present? Those are just a few morsels chosen from the menu of the Commission on Taxation. Those who talk in general terms about "the need for tax reform and action on the Commission on Taxation Report" would do well to preface their remarks by telling those to whom they are speaking which specific recommendation of the Commission on Taxation they are talking about. It is very important that any debate on tax reform and on the economy in general — a debate which is going to rage furiously over the next six months — be conducted on the basis of specifics.

I will not comment on the question raised by Senator Ross which was ruled out of order. The Government said in their statement issued by the Cabinet on 16 October that there would be no overall increase in the burden of taxation. That is the important point which Senator Ross and other Senators will no doubt reflect upon over Christmas.

Question put and agreed to.
Bill put through Committee, reported without recommendation, received for final consideration and passed.
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