It is proposed to take Items Nos. 1 and 2 on the Order Paper.
Order of Business.
A Cathaoirligh, knowing your commitment to this House, may I ask the Leader of the House through you yet again to reconsider his decision announced yesterday not to allow this House to discuss the most important issue facing the Irish people, namely, the Government's economic policy?
We will have a decision on it first and then you can make a speech if it is allowed to take place.
I am not going to make a speech.
As for my role in it, I would have to have laid before me a redraft of what you talked about yesterday and I have not received that as Cathaoirleach.
I am sorry, I was not going to speak about the economic issue. I was simply going to say that the Order of Business for today is hardly earth shattering or extremely urgent. Therefore, the pressure of business alone cannot be used to justify us not discussing the Government's economic policy. Therefore, I ask the Leader of the House, having regard to the obvious lightness of the business before this House, to reconsider the decision he made yesterday.
I will call on the Leader of the House but there is no redraft or motion before the House. Even though the Senator and his colleagues got the right piece in today's press from their performance yesterday, there is no such motion before the Seanad for debate.
I find that remark most regrettable, most offensive and most uncharacteristic of you, a Chathaoirligh.
At the risk of incurring your wrath also, a Chathaoirligh, one of the reasons we are asking the Leader of the House on the Order of Business to reconsider his decision — which is the only time we can formally ask him this type of question — is because of the unfolding problems that have arisen as a result of the Book of Estimates. There must be a reason for us asking it and the only way we can convince the Leader of the House that there is a reason is to explain it to him through you a Chathaoirligh, and it is not your position to quantify or qualify the questions we ask him. It is a matter for you in the ordering of the business of the House to decide, when we have finished asking questions of the Leader of the House, to allow the Leader of the House to respond. The Book of Estimates will have implications in several areas of economic development and in particular, in areas of social welfare and we now discover — and this is why I am asking the Leader of the House through you a Chathaoirligh — that pay-related benefits will no longer be paid on maternity leave——
Senator Ferris, you have lectured me on my position as Cathaoirleach.
I have not, I was just telling you——
I am lecturing you as Leader of the Labour Party, or whatever your position is in the House.
Will you allow me to ask the Leader of the House why a person now requires five years contributions——
Senator Ferris, you are as long in this House as I am. Put down a motion——
Will you ask the Leader of the House to respond to me? Five years are now required——
Senator Ferris, please resume your seat.
I am not finished yet——
Until I answer you.
I do not need your answer a Chathaoirligh. I need the Leader of the House to respond to me through your office. I want the Leader of the House to take note of the fact that yesterday the other House passed a resolution to receive the Australian Premier. He is the Labour leader of the Australian Parliament. I want to know on the Order of Business if it is a joint sitting of both Houses, or is it solely a sitting of the Dáil. I do not think that is an unfair question to ask the Leader of the House. Would you agree?
That is grand.
There is a facility in this House, which was passed by a previous Leader of the House, Gemma Hussey, whereby distinguished visitors would have a facility to address this House. If the Dáil wants to ignore this House, as some of the media and some of the public do, we should stand up for ourselves and say that we are entitled to have a hearing with the Australian Premier as well as the members of the Dáil. Senator Brendan Ryan made a good point: if this House is to be relevant we must have an opportunity to discuss the Book of Estimates.
The request for a full scale debate on the current economic situation in present circumstances is a very reasonable one. I would like to ask the Leader of the House if a number of days could be made available next week for such a debate.
In order to pour oil on trouble waters and calm things down a little, perhaps I could explain——
Once you stand up I know that is going to happen.
The motion which was presented yesterday in the name of Senator Brendan Ryan and myself, which was not acceptable for whatever reason, was not what we were referring to here. We were talking in terms of Government time being made available for the discussion of economic planning and strategies of Government, rather than the actual motion. It is one thing for people to say that this House is being ignored. It is quite right that people should ignore it if we are not discussing central issues. The central issue that is of concern to everybody at present is the Government's strategy on economic matters and how the Estimates affect everybody in the State. I ask the Leader of the House once more if he would reconsider his hasty decision of yesterday. Now after a period of 24 hours perhaps he could give a new response, or at least some hope that we could respond to the needs of the community and of those people whom we represent. At a time when people are facing massive unemployment, emigration——
Do not make a speech now.
I accept your ruling as always.
The Leader of the House to reply and conclude. All note my last word, "conclude".
The Order of Business for today is as I have stated. I am not acceding to the request of the Opposition that we hold an emergency debate on the Book of Estimates. As I said yesterday, the Book of Estimates has been produced three months in advance of any Government's efforts in the past. We have the Book of Estimates and many people will have time to delve into it over the next couple of months. I do not think that the Seanad is going to produce anything earth shattering. The order of Business for today is, as I outlined. The Insurance Bill is a very important one. It may not be important to some of the people who spoke but to people in the industry and those who have to take out insurance it is an extremely important Bill. The Abattoirs Bill is another very important Bill even if it is not earth shattering.
Senator Ferris asked a question about the decision to have the Premier of Australia address the Dáil. The sitting will not be a joint one. It is not a matter of any aspersion being cast on this House. Mr. Hawke is Prime Minister of Australia. He is not a Head of State and as Premier he is being invited in by the Dáil. As is usual on such occasions accommodation will be provided for Senators to attend at the meeting. Mr. Hawke is a political person but he is not a Head of State.
Ronald Reagan was a political Head.
I am glad Senator O'Toole realised I was not asleep for the past 24 hours that I was not considering an ill-considered reply. My reply yesterday was no more ill-considered than it is today. I am not allowing time at this stage for a debate on the Book of Estimates.
Would the Leader of the House answer the question I asked him about allowing time next week for a debate.
There will not be time allocated next week for a debate of that nature. Next week's business will be very important. We will be taking such legislation as the Companies Bill which many people are waiting for. The Video Recordings Bill may not be earth shattering but it has implications for us all. We will also take Committee Stage of the Insurance Bill. Yesterday I ordered the Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill for 28 October but we may take that earlier.
I find it inexplicable and illogical that the Leader of the Government Party should desire and encourage a debate on these Estimates everywhere except in this House. The Dáil will spend four days debating it and the Taoiseach wants it debated everywhere so that people will be aware of its effects but it would appear that the Government party in this House are afraid to face up to, discuss and meet the effects of their own policies. I demand a vote on this issue.
Question put: "That the Order of Business be agreed to."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 22; Níl, 15.
Tá
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Cullimore, Seamus.
- Doherty, Michael.
- Eogan, George.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Connell, John.
- O'Connor, Nicholas.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Níl
- Bradford, Paul.
- Bulbulia, Katharine.
- Connor, John.
- Cregan, Denis.
- Daly, Jack.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Ferris, Michael.
- Harte, John.
- Hogan, Philip.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- Manning, Maurice.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Reynolds, Gerry.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey; Níl, Senators J. Daly and J. O'Toole.
Question declared carried.