Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Oct 1987

Vol. 117 No. 6

Death of Former Oireachtas Member. - Order of Business.

Mr. Lanigan

On the Order of Business I would like to join with Senator Ferris in the message of condolence to the wife and family of Mick Lipper. The first time I met Mick Lipper was on a sporting field. I never thought I would see him in Dáil Éireann and I never thought at the time that I would be in Seanad Éireann. Mick epitomised what was best in Limerick and what was best in sport. He epitomised what was best in politics and what was best in family.

The Order of Business today is Items Nos. 1 and 2. Unfortunately, due to a mix up, the Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill, 1987, will be No. 3 on the Order of Business today.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

What number is that on the Order Paper?

Mr. Lanigan

It is listed under Bills in Progress and Business Ordered. I mentioned last week that this Bill would be taken. I apologise to the House for the fact that it is not on the Order Paper as such but it is No. 3 on the Order of Business today.

Mr. Manning

There is some problem about this but I would be agreeable for my own group to take Second Stage of the oil pollution Bill today only if speeches are confined to one speaker from each group because the notice is a bit short. Also on the Order of Business, has the Leader of the House come to any arrangement to have Item No. 34 on the Order Paper debated. Can he give us time next week for a full debate on the Estimates and on the financial programme of the Government? Last week there was very strong support for this from this side of the House and Members felt it strange that the same Government who asked for a four day debate in the Dáil should on the other hand refuse a debate in this House. It is only reasonable that we should have this debate next week. Next week would be preferable to this week because it is likely that many of the detailed cuts will be spelled out in the other House this week and we will have a fair idea of what to base our speeches on. I make a very strong request to the Leader of the House to have a full scale debate on the Book of Estimates.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Thank you Senator Manning. Does the Leader of the House also intend to conclude No. 3 on the Order Paper in Private Members' time, that is, as usual?

Mr. Lanigan

Yes.

Mr. J. O'Toole

I also lend my voice to what Senator Manning said. We find it absolutely extraordinary that the position, as articulated by the Taoiseach, is that he wished to have a debate on the Estimates so that Members of the Oireachtas in particular would be well aware of what is happening and what the Government's plans are and their effects on the population as a whole. This is being discussed at length in the other House this week and for some reason the Leader of the Government party in this House seems to be unprepared, or unwilling, or afraid to face a long discussion on the Government's economic policies and their effects. I wish him to respond to that point.

Mr. Cregan

Could I ask a question of the Leader of the House? Before the adjournment for the summer recess we asked the Minister for the Marine about the regulations for a free port in Cork. A promise was given at that time by the Minister that the regulations would be finalised by the beginning of October but nothing is forthcoming at this time. This is of urgent importance to the regions of Cork and Kerry.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator may not deal with the merits or——

Mr. Cregan

Can the Leader of the House give me information about that Bill?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I remind the House that it is inadmissible to discuss the demerits or merits of the case which a Senator is making. It must be purely a question.

Mr. O'Shea

On behalf of the Labour group I would like also to lend our support to the call for a full debate on the Estimates in this House. The devastation being caused to public sector employment and to services to the public generally has to be dealt with if this House is to have any relevance in the eyes of the electorate.

The Leader of the House gave me an undertaking late in the last session that the Labour Party would be given an opportunity to raise matters in Private Members' time. We have a specific motion down, No. 29 on the Order Paper, relating to the consequences for local authority employees for pension purposes and for lump sum purposes if they go on short time working or if there are lay-offs. No time has been allocated to the Labour Party since the House sat and I ask the Leader of the House to tell us when time will be made available to the Labour Party.

Mr. B. Ryan

I want to add my voice to that of my colleagues in again requesting a discussion on the Estimates. While I am speaking on the Order of Business may I associate myself with remarks about the late Mick Lipper? I had no personal acquaintance with him but I have a distinct recollection of a time when a voluntary organisation — the Simon Community with which I am involved — were suffering great public hostility in Limerick. He was extremely brave and virtually alone in his insistence on defending the rights of homeless people in Limerick. For that reason I would like to put my tribute on record.

Mr. Manning

Speaking on the Order of Business I meant to associate the Fine Gael group with the vote of sympathy. The late Mick Lipper was a very good friend of mine on the governing body of University college, Dublin, and, as the Leader of the House said, he represented what was best in the tradition of public service in Limerick. Fine Gael would like to be associated with the expression of sympathy.

An Leas-Cathaoirleach

Many thanks Senator.

Mr. Lanigan

Senator O'Shea mentioned an undertaking given to the Labour group that they would have time. The Committee on Procedure and Privileges are meeting this afternoon. I can guarantee Senator O'Shea that, even though there is not a Labour group in terms of numbers in the House, we will be allowing them to have their say. I will not say anything further except that there is a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges this afternoon and the Labour group will be allowed a certain amount of time which they are not entitled to under the rules of the House. Most of the people who spoke asked for a debate on the Estimates and on what is going to happen. Last week, if anyone listened which apparently they did not, I said "at this time".

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Order, please.

Mr. Lanigan

I did not allow a debate on the national recovery package and I said, and it is written into the record "at this time". I will say no more today than "at this time". According to Senator O'Toole I was asleep, I am unprepared, unwilling and afraid. I am afraid Senator O'Toole might have to eat some of his words. I am not unprepared, I am not unwilling, I am not afraid and I am not asleep. We will have a debate when I decide that we will have a debate.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Order, please.

Mr. Lanigan

The Order of Business for today is items Nos. 1 and 2. It is quite obvious that some people who are in the House shouting words like that do not know me; it is quite obvious that they were not in the House when other people were in the position of Leader of the House. The oil pollution Bill is being ordered for today as well.

Mr. Manning

In view of the totally unsatisfactory reply——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Leader of the House has concluded on the Order of Business and I will not allow any further discussion. The Order of Business is Nos. 1 and 2. No. 3 is the Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill and No. 4 is the Private Members' Motion. Is the Order of Business agreed?

Mr. J. O'Toole

I object to the Order of Business as being totally unacceptable, totally irresponsible and not suited to the needs of the House or the community.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

There can be no further discussion once the Leader of the House has concluded.

Question put: "That the Order of Business be Items Nos. 1 and 2, that the Order for Second Stage of the Oil Pollution of the Sea (Civil Liability and Compensation) Bill, 1987, be discharged and Second Stage be taken today and No. 3."

The Seanad divided: Tá, 28; Níl, 21.

Tá

• Bohan, Edward Joseph.
• Byrne, Sean.
• Cassidy, Donie.
• Cullimore, Seamus.
• de Buitleár, Eamon.
• Doherty, Michael.
• Eogan, George.
• Fitzgerald, Tom.
• Fitzsimons, Jack.
• Friel, Brian.
• Haughey, Seán F.
• Hussey, Thomas.
• Kiely, Dan.
• Kiely, Rory.
• Lanigan, Mick.
• Lydon, Donal.
• McEllistrim, Tom.
• McGowan, Patrick.
• McKenna, Tony.
• Mooney, Paschal.
• Mullooly, Brian.
• Mulroy, Jimmy.
• O'Callaghan, Vivian.
• O'Connell, John.
• O'Toole, Martin J.
• Robb, John D. A.
• Ryan, William.
• Wallace, Mary.

Níl

• Bradford, Paul.
• Bulbulia, Katharine.
• Connor, John.
• Cregan, Denis.
• Daly, Jack.
• Doyle, Joe.
• Fennell, Nuala.
• Ferris, Michael.
• Harte, John.
• Hogan, Philip.
• Kelleher, Peter.
• Kennedy, Patrick.
• McCormack, Padraic.
• McDonald, Charlie.
• Manning, Maurice.
• Norris, David.
• O'Shea, Brian.
• O'Toole, Joe.
• Reynolds, Gerry.
• Ross, Shane P. N.
• Ryan, Brendan.

Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey; Níl, Senators J. Daly and Cregan.

Question decalred carried.

Mr. Manning

At this stage may I give notice that unless the Leader of the House changes from his obdurate and unreasonable stance, we will have to oppose the Order of Business each day until we get this debate.

Senators

Hear, hear.