It is intended to take Item No. 1 today, to break for tea from 5.30 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. and to conclude today's business at 8 p.m.
Order of Business.
First, let me welcome the slightly early recall of the Seanad. I hope we are now back for the rest of the session until Christmas and not just for the Companies (No. 2) Bill, important as that is, but that we are back into the regular cycle. To that end I would like to ask the Leader of the House the status of Private Members' time. It is not ordered for today and I think it would be a very unwelcome departure if we were not going to have an opportunity to debate Private Members' business at least from next week onwards. I ask the Leader of the House to clarify that point.
I welcome the report the Cathaoirleach has just given us on the state of the Chamber. Certainly we all hope we will be back in the Chamber as early as possible in the New Year without hitches of any sort.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if any new legislation can be expected over the coming weeks. Once the Companies (No. 2) Bill goes through there is no Government legislation whatsoever on the Order Paper to be cleared away. Could he report to us, either today or tomorrow, if it is proposed to introduce new legislation in the coming weeks so that the relevant spokespersons can prepare for it?
I would like to refer to Item No. 2 on the Order Paper today. This item has never been more relevant than at present and I ask the Leader of the House to arrange to have a debate on it either tomorrow or next week. For over a year now we have not had an opportunity for a full-scale debate on Northern Ireland and Anglo-Irish relations. This is probably the most pressing problem we face coming up to the review of the Anglo-Irish Agreement it is imperative that this House with its very diverse strands of opinion should be given the opportunity to review the Anglo-Irish Agreement. Therefore, I say to the Leader of the House in a totally non-partisan way that it is important that there be a strong parliamentary input into the review, that it is not just Governments and civil servants. I ask him in that spirit to see if he could go ahead and have a debate on Item No. 2 at the earliest possible moment. While saying that let me conclude on this.
I would also ask him to turn his mind to the establishment of a parliamentary tier to the Anglo-Irish Agreement as envisaged under the agreement. I believe all parties in this House would want to urge the Government to press ahead as quickly as possible with the establishment of the parliamentary tier of which this House would be part. I know from contact with the House of Commons that there is——
Senator Manning, are you making a speech?
Not at all. I want to conclude by saying——
It sounds like it to me.
——I am sure there is a very real welcome for the establishing of the parliamentary tier on that side of the Irish Sea and I urge the Leader of the House to take that point on board.
I should like to support what Senator Manning has said in two of his references, first, the need to have a wide-ranging debate on Northern Ireland and Anglo-Irish relations. I would hope that could be a debate stretching over a fairly liberal span of time because there is much to be said, there are many ideas to be presented. One of the troubles is that for far too long in both parts of this island we have stuck with stereotypes. We have our Chamber here where there is a certain amount of freedom to express individual ideas and I am quite certain that if these were put into the melting pot they could prove to be both helpful and constructive in regard to what must inevitably take place.
Secondly, although my own attendance has been anything but good in the past year, I would welcome the idea of the further use of time for Private Members' business. I have had a motion down here for four years, the lifetime of this Seanad and most of the previous Seanad. I think it is a very important matter when one considers the problems of minorities in the context of majorities throughout the word. It would be a pity not to think very seriously about the proposal the Senator has put to you, a Chathaoirligh, that we should try to use the time that is possible for us so that we can get through the large number of motions on the Order Paper.
Before I call Senator O'Toole, let me say to Senator Robb that Private Members' time has nothing to do with me as Cathaoirleach. It is the Whips, the parties, you, who decide. I only preside. I have nothing to do with——
Thank you. As a very private Private Member I take your point.
We also welcome the fact that the House has returned early to work on a programme of legislation. We have heard some quite disconcerting rumours that the House is going to meet for only a week or a week-and-a-half and then go on some kind of a mid-term break at that point. It certainly would not fit in with the programme of work which needs to be addressed and which the Leader of the House outlined to us at the beginning of the year. I would like to refer to two issues. First, I ask the Leader of the House to have at least some element of consulation with the other groups in the House about the programme of work which is to be undertaken before a session.
Hear, hear.
It is disgraceful that only one item has been proposed by the Leader of the House today. That is not good enough. We need to know what the programme of work is going to be for the next number of months. We should address those issues which have been raised by many members on the Government side over the past year, the many motions which are on the Order Paper. We certainly hope that some attempt will be made to deal with and dispose of them over the next period of weeks.
I want to refer also to the question of Private Members' time. It is disgraceful that the Leader of the House has decided not to give time for Private Members' business today. I would like the House to recall that on the week we adjourned we had this same discussion. I was assured at that time by the Leader of the House that it was not possible to take Private Members' business that week because of pressing business. It was outlined to us that there was an agreement where parliamentary or legislative business was pressing that Private Members' business would not be taken.
Senator O'Toole, I dislike interrupting you but as I said to Senator Robb, Private Members' time is really not for discussion on the Order of Business. It is for agreement by all of you.
I have made the point that this is the only opportunity which I have had to discuss this matter in any formal way. I quite understand that it is not a matter for you, a Chathaoirligh: I am addressing my questions through you to the Leader of the House on the Order of Business. I propose that we take Private Members' time this evening at 6.30 p.m. as is normal. It is on that issue that I address my remarks. As important as Government business is, and nobody would take from it, and certainly as important as the Companies Bill is — indeed I proposed in July that we come back early to deal with it if it were not finished at that time — that is not the point. The point is that we need to get through a lot of other business as well and the programme of work should be outlined for us.
A Chathaoirligh, you know very well that more than any other institution of State, we are wide open to criticism, and are indeed criticised by many groups outside this House. There is nothing we can do about that but I hope that the programme of work that will be taken over the next number of months will at least reflect the problems and the realities of Irish life and in a sense that the programme of work——
Senator O'Toole, you are now making a speech on policy right across the board.
No, I am not.
You are entitled to make a comment and to ask a question from the Leader of the House but you are not entitled——
I wish to ask will the Leader of the House place on the Order of Business those motions on the Order Paper today which will address the issues which are topical and relevant to the problems in Irish society to see if we can by the results of our deliberations silence those critics who will say that this House does not deal with topical or important matters. First, I am proposing that time be given for Private Members' business today and I ask the Leader of the House to concede on that point.
I also ask the Leader of the House to outline for us the legislative programme for the next couple of months, the motions that he intends to take in the near future and how he intends to dispose of all the business that is on three or four pages of an Order Paper which everybody has been giving out about for the past period of time. I would ask that we approach our work with some sense of efficiency and effectiveness.
I need some information on procedure in the House. A Member of this House went on the radio and claimed that he and his colleagues, the Independent Senators, were responsible for keeping the House here six weeks longer than it would have otherwise sat. He said that clearly and I heard him. I do not believe that statement to be right and true. I ask your assistance and I want it to be put on record whether that is a fact.
Senator McGowan the only thing I can say to you is that I cannot rule on it now but certainly if that has happened it is something that is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
I wish to raise a couple of items on the Order of Business. First, I wish to comment on your statement in connection with the work that is proceeding on the Seanad Chamber. It is appropriate that the House should compliment the Office of Public Works on the progress they have made to date. Very important reconstruction work had to be done. Those people are the subject of continuous public criticism in many areas and it is appropriate that this House should compliment them on the work they have done here. We should at least put it on the record that we are pleased with the progress. We look forward to our return to the Seanad Chamber proper. We hope that, whether there is an election or not, all those present will have the privilege of sitting in that Chamber at the appropriate time.
We want to be fair to the Leader of the House. When we went into recess for the summer he indicated that we would come back in September to deal with the Companies (No. 2) Bill and I understand that is what he has outlined today. Perhaps he will address the question as to when we will have Private Members' time because it is important that that facility for Private Members should not be lost sight of.
Arising from the point made by the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Manning, when he referred to Item No. 2, I think all of us would concur on the urgency of that matter in view of the events that have taken place over the past number of months and the Leader of the House will share this concern. I think all the groups in this House would want to facilitate him in arriving at a mutually suitable time when we could have a structured debate on this subject because nobody wants to play political football with it. It is a very serious subject and we would like the Government to be involved in the debate.
I am certainly willing to sit down at any forum with the Leader of the House and with the other groups to decide on how we should approach Item No. 2. We could do much damage if it is not dealt with in a structured debate.
I suggest to the Leader of the House, from past experience of dealing with Government legislation which has a primary role in the House, that the work of other committees, that dealing with EC legislation and otherwise, would be taken on Thursdays as a matter of course and that only urgent legislation would be taken on that day. In that way Members will know that all of Wednesday, or indeed Tuesday, sittings would be devoted to legislation and Thursdays could be devoted to all these other items. They should not be continually listed here without any agreement about how we would meet the problem that has been outlined by Senator O'Toole and others. That is the way to go forward. In the first sitting of this session we should be in agreement about how we should do this and not delay the Order of Business unnecessarily with arguments which we could settle outside this House.
Before I call Senator Norris, what has me baffled is the debate that is going on. The friendliness that seems to be here — maybe I am misreading it — should exist outside as well. Members should fix up all those matters and then come in here and get the Order of Business cleared.
On a point of order, the Order of Business is occasionally the only opportunity people have to get a consensus on these issues. It allows the Leader of the House the opportunity to respond to us with all due respects to you, and the friendliness you wish to have in the debate. This is one of the forums in which one can do so.
A Chathaoirligh, I would like first of all to welcome very much the report that you gave to the House with regard to progress in the Seanad Chamber. I would like to ask, arising from that, whether it is possible at some stage that Members of the Seanad could have an opportunity to actually physically see the work in progress, and I say this with some feeling because I, although elected for 18 months or nearly two years, have never actually been inside the Chamber. I do not know what it is like, but a journalist acquaintance of mine recently said there is great work being done in there, that he had been in to see it. This may or may not be correct but it placed me at something of a disadvantage. I would very much appreciate the opportunity to see the work that is in hand and I welcome the fact that it appears to be very much up to date in its progress.
I would like to support what a variety of Senators have said with regard to Private Members' time. I do not wish to be contentious but I would have to agree with Senator O'Toole who pointed out that there was a similar difficulty at the end of last term. It is particularly important that this matter should be addressed because it does bring the House into some degree of disrepute. It does reduce the dignity and status of the Seanad and it is galling to people like myself and other Senators from all round the House who try to raise matters of importance and are then taunted by the Leader of the Opposition with the throw away remark, "Why do you not bring it up in your own time?" Our time arrives under these kind of procedures about once a year, and if the Government do not use their time perhaps it would be courteous and gracious of them to make it available to people who have really got issues they want to bring to the attention of the House. Perhaps that is something that might be considered.
I would like to say with regard to what Senator McGowan said that it is unfortunate that here on the first day we get into this rather cheap point-scoring exercise and as far as the——
(Interruptions.)
Senator Norris, would you make a point? We are clearing the Order of Business.
I will make the point that I take a rather dim view of the fact that these statements were made and require cheers of approval from the Government benches and I would be quite happy to reiterate the fact that the Independent Senators unquestionably were responsible for keeping the business of the House going at the last——
That does not arise on the Order of Business. Would you sit down?
It was raised by Senator McGowan.
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
With the greatest respect, and in the most amicable terms, I will not actually sit down although I will take your guidance and——
Resume your seat.
I have certain items directly related so I think what you really intend to say to me, a Chathaoirligh, is that you wish me to stop on this point but you will be graciously prepared to listen to the substantive items on today's Order of Business. I would like to ask with regard to that the Leader of the House to give some indication as to when Item No. 24 will be taken, that is, the item on the situation regarding the emigration of Jewish citizens of the Soviet Union. I say this because I have been approached by various lobbying interests asking me when this matter will be taken. I will simply remind the Leader of the House that several times during the last term he gave an indication that this matter would be given some degree of priority.
I would like to ask about two other items. One is Item No. 49. I would just ask the Leader of the House to consider the possibility of some kind of all-party motion on this. I believe it to be totally uncontentious. I refer to the question of conferring honorary citizenship upon Raoul Wallenberg who was a person universally admired in this country, throughout Europe and, indeed, throughout the world.
My final point is with regard to Item No. 50. It is not at all my intention to be obstructive but I would point out to the House that the tax amnesty actually ends in about nine days time. If it remains at Item No. 50 and is not taken in the next day or two, it becomes absolutely redundant. Perhaps the Government would give some indication of whether they are prepared to make room for this important discussion or whether it will be necessary for me to move a Standing Order 29 motion today on the matter.
There seems to be a certain amount of competition amongst Members on the Independent benches to take credit for the accusation levelled at us by Senator McGowan. I felt that it was I who said it. Senator Norris has jumped up and taken credit for it. I am prepared to concede the statement to Senator Norris but I want to put it on the record that I, for one, am fully behind what he said.
Nothing seems to have changed on the Order of Business since the summer. Apparently, we are here today to discuss the Companies (No. 2) Bill. Senator O'Toole put his finger on it when he said it is insulting to this House that we have no programme for what will be discussed tomorrow. We do not know whether we are meeting next week. We have no programme beyond the Companies (No. 2) Bill. It is significant, and it is ridiculous, that the Leader of the House informed us of two most important things in this order: that there be a tea break for an hour and that we will finish at 8 o'clock. He did not tell us anything about what we will discuss between now and Christmas. If that is important to everybody——
Senator Ross, you are entitled to raise a question on the Order of Business but you are not going to make a speech.
I am not making a speech. Taking into account the fact that we are all far better prepared now for the session until Christmas by knowing that we will have a tea break, I am asking the following question of the Leader of the House: what is the programme for the Companies (No. 2) Bill today, tomorrow and next week and what is the Government's plan for the Companies (No. 2) Bill? We asked this question every week for the past year and got no answer.
I want to ask other questions on the Order of Business. I have three more questions to ask and they are all relevant. The second question I have on the Order of Business is: when will we be allowed to have a debate on Northern Ireland? It seems appropriate to take Item No. 2 now and for the Taoiseach come into the House to take that debate. The Taoiseach is not sitting in the Dáil. He could come to the Seanad and take a debate on Item No. 2. The only reservation I have about asking for that is that we have been given a series of pledges about a debate on Northern Ireland which have been broken, and broken without excuse. Even if we get a promise today, we will have to look on it in that light. Third I want to remind the House that we suffered a guillotine before the summer recess which completely upset everybody's calculations. For some reason it suited the Government to guillotine a very important Bill. I would also like to ask why we do not have Private Members' time today. Is this some sort of a precedent or will the Leader of the House give us Private Members' time today? I believe the Government will find that the Independents will not be disruptive but will oppose the Order of Business if this sort of creeping avoidance comes into the business of the House. It is very important——
Senator Ross, you have made your point about Private Members' time. Would you go on to Item No. 4?
I am asking a question on the Order of Business. It may have been too long but it is all relevant. It is lengthy but relevant. I am asking the Leader of the House to give us a pledge that, if it is not taken today, Private Members' business be taken tomorrow so that we can get back to the system of taking it once a week. Otherwise this House is being run badly and chaotically as it was last year simply and solely for the benefit of the Government.
A Chathaoirligh, I would like to raise a serious point of order. I have been thinking about the charge made by Senator McGowan which you said should be dealt with by the CPP. I would like the Leader of the House to put it on the record of the House that the work of the House was greatly facilitated by the long hard hours put in by the Independent group in late June and early July.
(Interruptions.)
Before I call Senator Brendan Ryan, I take issue with that last remark. Everybody in this House works quite hard. We are all committed to the Seanad and the last thing we need is a remark from Senator Ross about how bad the last session of this House was. I thought it was an excellent session, and I am here since 1977.
The Cathaoirleach is entitled to that opinion and I am enlightened by it. I am enlightened by it but I am on record as saying that in terms of the Order of Business it was a chaotic session and I stand by that.
I am not the longest serving Member of this House but I have a reasonable number of years behind me and I want to be fully associated with the remarks made by my Independent colleagues. The last session was badly organised. There was one particular day when we did not know what business we would be taking in two hours time. I am sorry but I have to take issue with you, a Chathaoirligh. You and I and indeed all of my Independent colleagues are committed to this House and have worked very hard in various ways to make this House work but it serves no purpose to pretend this House works better than it does. This House was badly run during the last session. It deserves better and the Members of this House deserve better and there is no point in avoiding the issue.
I am astonished that there is no Private Members' business today. I am even more astonished to discover that the Order of Business is being presented to us without consultation. If that is not an indication of the level of chaos that prevails in the decisions in regard to the Order of Business, I do not know what is. It was part of the order of this House that there would be consultation, formal and informal. We had an impeccable record of working by agreement in regard to business. That apparently has been supplanted. I do not think it has been supplanted maliciously. It has been supplanted because of the sort of chaotic and incompetent organisation of that seems to lie behind the way the Business of the House is being conducted now.
There are many items on the Order Paper which deserve to be discussed today. I want at this stage to formally propose that Item No. 36 be taken at 6.30 p.m. Item No. 36 is a motion in the names of Senators O'Connell, Bohan, Byrne, Cassidy, Cullimore, Doherty, Fallon and all of the other Fianna Fáil members. I understand that it is Fianna Fáil's turn for Private Members' time. The motion which is most appropriate is the one to do with the lack of accountability of charities, a motion I would support enthusiastically. Therefore, we ought to carry on with our normal procedures and have the motion discussed. I propose that Item No. 36 be taken at 6.30 p.m. If the Members opposite are unwilling to propose it, I will quite happily propose it for them.
In conclusion, on the issue of what my colleagues are alleged to have said on the radio, I do not know what they said. They are well able to defend themselves but I think the Members opposite ought to be extremely careful because I am sure I have heard almost every Member opposite say at one stage or another on radio, television or anywhere else they could get a hearing that they were opposed to extradition and they are now happily transferring people across the Border as if they never said it.
That does not arise on the Order of Business.
Neither did Senator McGowan's remark arise on the Order of Business. Therefore, I wish to propose an amendment to the Order of Business, that Item No. 36 be taken at 6.30 p.m.
I do not know where to start. I will make a general statement first of all. An attack has been made upon this House by Members, in particular, of the Independent group. They seem to want everything their way. They do not want to acknowledge that anybody else in this House does any work except themselves. The last session of this House of the Oireachtas did get chaotic at times due to the fact that there was a disruption caused each day on the Order of Business by certain Members of the Independent group. We had an example of that here today when Senator O'Toole got up and berated us for not taking Private Members' motions today. Yet, he was the one who said that if we did not take the Companies Bill on the first day and that if we did not bring it to a conclusion he would disrupt the Order of Business every day until that happened. That is exactly what he has done.
On a point of order——
(Interruptions.)
Senator Lanigan to continue without interruption.
On a point of order, two charges were made against me.
(Interruptions.)
I ask that the charges made against me, neither of which are true, be either substantiated or withdrawn. I never proposed to disrupt the Business of the House ever. The record will show that on certain occasions I proposed to put the matter to a vote on a weekly basis. That is what I have done. In order to facilitate the Leader of the House and the Government Whip, the previous week, I agreed with him that there was pressure on him and that it was difficult to take Private Members' time. There was no discussion whatsoever about this week and Private Members' time. That is for the record.
I support Senator O'Toole. May I appeal to you, a Chathaoirligh, to use your undoubted influence and authority to stop the constant barracking from the other side of the House which makes it impossible for people on this side to hear the Business of the House. As Senators we are entitled to hear it.
If the Independent Senators are making a charge here that there were no discussions in regard to the Order of Business for today, they had better get together and appoint a different Whip because Senator Willie Ryan has had——
On a point of order, that charge was never made. The charge was that there was no discussion or consultation about Private Members' time.
It was made quite plain.
The only consultation was that the Companies Bill would be taken, nothing further.
Will Senator O'Toole please resume his seat.
Senator O'Toole was informed.
That is a lie. I am not going to sit here listening to lies.
Senator Willie Ryan and Senator O'Toole met and it was agreed between them, on the basis of one to one, that the Order of Business today would consist only of the Companies (No. 2) Bill.
That is untrue——
Senator O'Toole must resume his seat.
There will be no Private Members' time today. This House was not prevented from taking Private Members' time during the last session. We took Private Members' time every day except during the last week of the session. We have come back here specifically to deal with the Companies (No. 2) Bill, 1987. As regards the various items that have been specifically referred to today, I would remind the House that while there are a large number of items on the Order Paper at least 29 of these are in the names of the Independent group. I would suggest that if they want to list these items in priority they can do so. They can decide——
How can we do so if there is no Private Members' time?
Private Members' time will be taken, as has always been the case. The Independent Members will take their place in the order for Private Members' time which has always been the case. As regards Items Nos. 24, 19, 50 and 36, when Private Members' time is being taken the Independent group can decide their order of priority.
When?
When Private Members' time is being taken.
May I raise a point directly from that?
No, Senator. If the Senator does not resume his seat, while the Leader of the House is on his feet and until we get the Order of Business cleared, he will have to leave the House.
I take the points made by Senator Manning as regards new legislation and over the next two weeks, during which we will discuss the Companies Bill, the Whips can get together when they can find out exactly what Government legislation is coming through and we can get an order in terms of legislation. I take the point which I think was made by Senator Ferris that we should go back to using Thursdays for Private Members' motions and for discussing reports from joint committees. That worked in the past. Unfortunately, during the last session there was a large amount of Government business and it was not possible every week to do that. We will take a look at that and, again, we will have to list the motions in order of priority. I take the points made in regard to Item No. 2 and I will discuss this matter with the Government.
Senator O'Toole mentioned that he has heard disconcerting rumours about what is going to happen in this House. Facts about the Order of Business will only be given on the Order of Business. I do not know who the rumourmonger was but it definitely was not me. If the Senator wants to listen to rumours that is his business.
Is there a programme of work from now until Christmas?
The Order of Business for today is as I gave it. While the Companies (No. 2) Bill is being discussed we can find out what legislation is coming to us from the Government. It is up to Members in each group to decide what priority they give to motions set down on the Order Paper. The fact that a motion has been on the Order Paper for four or five years does not mean anything except that it is there; it might be taken or it might not be taken.
Senator Brendan Ryan has proposed an amendment to the Order of Business, that Item No. 36 be taken at 6.30 p.m. Is that proposal being pressed?
We will not support this amendment because the start to today's session has been a disgrace to the House, and the fault has been more on this side of the House than on the Government side. If there are problems now is the time for the leaders of the groups and the Whips to iron them out and to get an agreed procedure so that we will not spend 40 minutes to an hour at the beginning of every session in futile wrangling which only strengthens the case of those who want this House abolished. We ask the Government group to convene a meeting in good faith so that we can resolve these problems as to priority here.
Is the proposal that Item No. 36 be taken at 6.30 p.m. being pressed?
Yes.
Question put.
Vótáil.
The question is: "That Item No. 36 be taken at 6.30 p.m. today." On that question a division has been challenged. Will those Senators calling for a division please rise in their places.
Senators J. O'Toole, B. Ryan, Ross, Robinson and Norris stood.
The division will now proceed.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 7; Níl, 23.
Tá
- Norris, David.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Robb, John D. A.
- Robinson, Mary T. W.
- Ross, Shane P. N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Níl
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Cullimore, Séamus.
- de Buitléar, Éamon.
- Doherty, Michael.
- Fallon, Seán.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- O'Connell, John.
- ÓConchubhair, Nioclás.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Tellers: Tá, Senators B. Ryan and Ross; Níl, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey.
Question declared lost.
Order of Business agreed to.