It is intended to take Item No. 1 today.
Order of Business.
We will co-operate with the Cathaoirleach in ensuring that the business of the House is dealt with as effectively as possible. Undoubtedly part of the problem has been a genuine feeling on the Opposition benches that information from the Leader of the House is not often given as early or as fully as would be required. Yesterday I proposed that the leaders of the various groups and the Whips should get together at a meeting organised by the Leader of the House to thresh out difficulties so that we would not have a repetition of the chaos of yesterday. I ask the Leader of the House to respond today on the Order of Business to that proposal.
Also, on the Order of Business I am absolutely dismayed by the absence of any coverage of the substantial business of yesterday in any of our newspapers. The Companies (No. 2) Bill is important legislation. Many important areas affecting thousands of people were discussed yesterday and yet none of the papers carried even a single column of reporting on the substance of yesterday's business. RTE, in fairness, took up one part of the story but there is something seriously wrong with the journalistic coverage of this House.
On the Order of Business, will the Leader of the House tell me if there will be an interval of a week or two between the end of Committee Stage and the start of Report Stage of this Bill as we have a number of amendments which we wish to put down for Report Stage? Finally, will the Leader of the House give some indication in relation to two of the outstanding matters raised yesterday — the question of future business and the possibility, desired by all sides, of a wide-ranging debate on Northern Ireland.
In common with everybody else in the House I will take serious note of the remarks made by the Chair this morning. With the greatest respect, perhaps the proposals that came forward for alterations to the procedure of the House could be pushed a little bit forward. A large part of the trouble comes through no ill will in the House but from things like the absence of anything corresponding to Question Time and I suppose some of us are really trying to make the House work by, in a way, turning it into Question Time. This may be inappropriate and I will certainly be as well disciplined as I find myself capable of being.
Finally, I would simply echo what Senator Manning has said about the coverage of the debate. I would not like to attack the newspapers but I would make one point. Some very substantial discussions were held yesterday. Even when I was not here I was listening to them and the Minister accepted the spirit if not the fact of a series of really very important amendments that affect the welfare of commercial life in this country, particularly things like the capacity of the worker to have an inspector appointed under the Companies Acts. I regret very much that it was only the Order of Business and not these things which really genuinely affect the life of the country which was reported. If this was reported there would be a greater respect for the Seanad. I will do all I can to maintain respect for this House.
I also accept what the Chair says about the appearance of certain disorderly behaviour in the House. Nobody wants the Seanad to give that impression, but it should be said that this is probably the result of certain frustration which is felt on the Opposition and on the Independent benches, and that should not be ignored. That frustration is due directly to the Order of Business in this House. We have it again today. Today, the only information we have from the Leader of the House is that we shall be taking item No. 1. That is simply inadequate and it is very frustrating for Members of this House if that is all the information we are to be provided with. I do not necessarily blame the Leader of the House, because I do not think he is completely a plenipotentiary in this area, but if the Leader of the House were to say: "We will take item No. 1 today on Committee Stage and we will do this next week and Report Stage two weeks later" or if he would even declare that it was his intention to do that and to give us a constructive programme of legislation and of motions, there would not be such frustration on these benches. The only information we have from the Leader of the House is this. We asked again and we asked yesterday on item No. 2——
Senator Ross——
I am coming to item No. 2——
The Senator is judging the Leader of the House before he has even said——
All I am doing is giving the information which he gave us.
Will you make the point and not a speech then?
That is what I am trying to do.
I find it much easier to say out what I have to say and get it over with.
I noticed that. I will be as quick as I can without interruption from the Government side anyway. We have asked about item No. 2 continuously. We have no information on that from the Leader of the House today when he gets up to speak. This is equally important to the Companies Bill — the Anglo-Irish motion. The Opposition are extremely frustrated on this matter. The Leader of the House said yesterday that he would come back to us with information on that but he has not come back to us with information on that and yet——
Senator Ross you will not be allowed to make a speech about Northern Ireland.
I never said anything substantive about Northern Ireland. All I have done is mentioned item No. 2. Nothing substantive about Northern Ireland has been said. I am saying that there has been frustration about having relevant discussions and about pledges made by the Leader of the House which are not kept. It would be much easier for the order of this House if we had a programme and a structure and if the House were taken seriously by the Government side which I very much doubt.
Yesterday statements and accusations were made by Senators on the back benches about the manner in which we have conducted business for the past year. Speakers went so far as to say that it was a disgrace and that they were not told in time about business and that business was changed and so on. We all know that that has happened in this House and in the Dáil on many occasions in the past and that it cannot be avoided. If at any time I was aware of a change, I immediately contacted the Leader of the Fine Gael Party in the Seanad, the Independents and the Labour Party. As far as the Independents are concerned, while they have a leader, that is no use. It appears they are six completely independent of each other and when they come in here they all have to make sweeping statements, although I may have discussed the matter with them.
In my last four years here when Senator Dooge was Leader of the Government party, he always contacted me about any changes and there were several changes. The attack that was made here yesterday by people on the backbenches of this House — the Independents — was most unfair. Some of them may not know the workings of this House as they are not here that long. I know there are Independent Senators here who live quite close to the city and are in here everyday and they would love to see the Seanad sitting every day. I am sure some of them were a little bored during the summer. I saw them wandering around here.
I am sure a Chathaoirligh, that in the light of the comments you made——
Resume your seat, Senator.
I am sure, a Chathaoirligh, you will require the Government Chief Whip to moderate his remarks.
I would like to welcome the statement you have made of your intention to exercise more strict control. The ordinary Member of the House here is sick to the guts with this kind of disruption on the Order of Business every day. It is being done very cleverly. We have complaints about not getting a good press but there are people in this House who manipulate whatever press we do get. They do it systematically on the Order of Business every day. That is their total contribution and they are getting away with it.
Not true.
I do not care how eloquent the Senator is and what command of the language he may have. I admire people who have a good flow of language — as many of them have — but they abuse it to the point where actually very few believe them.
The Leader of the House to reply and conclude.
I am sorry. The first thing I would like to point out is that Senator McGowan is totally incorrect. All the Members who sit on these benches here contributed substantially to the debate on the Companies Bill yesterday. It is improper and out of order for me to comment on the absence of other Members. I cannot comment on their absence but I will say, and the record will show, that yesterday's debate on the Companies Bill was conducted by all the Independent Members, one Member from Fine Gael and either one or two Members from Fianna Fáil. It is outrageous to suggest that we speak only on the Order of Business. We work hard on the Order of Business——
We cannot have a debate now.
The allegation was allowed, we are entitled to reply.
Senators
Hear, hear.
Not in the House. The Leader of the House to reply and conclude.
I want to speak on the Order of Business of this House and I understood I was allowed to do so. The difficulty with the Order of Business is that nobody apparently can tell us what is coming next. I would like the Leader, if he can or if somebody will tell him, whether it is intended to introduce any more legislation in this House or whether we will return to the spectacle of being a rubber stamp which we had before the summer.
Senator Ryan, I have nothing to do with, or I am not interested in what is coming. All I want to do is to get this morning's Order of Business cleared and agreed by the House and to get into the Companies Bill which I presume is what we are taking. It is not my job and I am not presiding day-to-day over what is going to happen in a month's time. Let us get today's business out of the way.
May I say as far as today's business goes that if the Members opposite are worried about who gets publicity, then they ought to work at the business of the House and they will get all the publicity they want.
The Leader of the House to reply and conclude.
There is very little I want to say. I am getting fed up of the arrogance of certain people on the backbenches telling us we are rubber stamping anything. This House has dealt with business on a systematic basis and there is no such thing as a rubber stamp. The business of this House will be conducted according to the rules of the House and it will not be conducted according to the rules the Independents would like to bring in.
If they have any crib there is a procedure they can go through. If they want to put anything down for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges I suggest they go there. I am not going to allow any further messing on the Order of Business. I am fed up with it. If these people have a crib, they can go to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges but I can guarantee it if they go to the Committee on Procedure and Privileges they had better make sure they are operating as a group because they are being given the privileges of a group, even though they seem to be a composite of totally different philosophies but they do get together to disrupt this House on the Order of Business.
The Order of Business today is Item No. 1 and I do not have to give any further indication as to any other business that will come before this House. That is the way it will be dealt with in future. Item No. 1 will be taken today. On the question that was asked by Senator Manning: yes, there will be an interval between the Committee and Report Stages.
On a point of order——
There is no way I can go into the Order of Business. I asked a number of very specific questions in a very reasonable way, in the best interests of the House and they have not been answered. I said specifically that there appeared to be a breakdown of some sort in the way in which the House is being run and I suggested yesterday and today that the Whips and leaders get together to try to sort it out. I have twice asked the Leader of the House and if he were interested in responding to the obvious goodwill in this party to make the House work better, he might have responded to that very reasonable question.
The question is: "That the Order of Business be Item No. 1."
Senators
Vótáil.
The question is: "That the Order of Business be Item No. 1." On that question a division has been challenged.
The Seanad divided: Tá, 21; Níl, 12.
Tá
- Bohan, Edward Joseph.
- Cassidy, Donie.
- Doherty, Michael.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Fitzsimons, Jack.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Mick.
- Lydon, Donal.
- McGowan, Patrick.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- Mulroy, Jimmy.
- O'Callaghan, Vivian.
- Ó Conchubhair, Nioclás.
- O'Toole, Martin J.
- Ryan, William.
- Wallace, Mary.
Níl
- Bradford, Paul.
- Doyle, Joe.
- Fennell, Nuala.
- Kelleher, Peter.
- Loughrey, Joachim.
- McMahon, Larry.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Norris, David.
- O'Shea, Brian.
- O'Toole, Joe.
- Ross, Shane P. N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
Tellers: Tá, Senators W. Ryan and S. Haughey; Níl, Senators Doyle and J. O'Toole.
Question declared carried.
On a point of order, I would like to make the point that the Independent group, in acting as a group, have always acted within the Standing Orders of the House and that, contrary to the imputation——
That is not a point of order.
The Leader of the House has imputed that in some way the group were in contravention of Standing Orders.
That is not a point of order. We will now deal with section 154 of the Companies (No. 2) Bill.