We propose to take all Stages of the Defence (Amendment) Bill, 1990, today. I trust that we will have the co-operation of everyone to enable us to complete all Stages of this Bill today. We are flexible in relation to time. We propose to take the Horse Breeding Bill, 1985, and a Private Members' Fianna Fáil motion: "That Seanad Éireann welcomes the unification of Germany".
Order of Business.
I will be extremely orderly knowing the Leas-Chathaoirleach's capacity to be extremely impartial. I am prepared to be eminently reasonable about the timescale for the Defence (Amendment) Bill but I am not agreeing to a guillotine. This Bill was severely guillotined in the other House. One of the few privileges we have left in this House, in its declining years, is not to restrict debate on Government legislation. I do not want at 6.30 p.m. or at some other time where discussion on this important legislation, which many people feel has defects, will be terminated without a proper detailed Committee Stage debate. The Acting Leader was hoping we would be reasonable and I have never been other than reasonable in my time in this House. Being reasonable is not the same as giving a blank cheque to close the debate at a particular time just because it suits the Government; I would like something more specific. Is he hoping or is he asking us to decide that a discussion of this Bill will be completed today, because there are two very different questions involved? In the light of our comments last week about the success of a film, I am very glad the Fianna Fáil motion does not refer to any congratulations to the Government for the unification of Germany.
I would like to draw the attention of the House to item No. 8, on today's Order Paper and with reference to that I welcome the Government announcement to abolish the death penalty. That is something which Members of this House have been clamouring for since 1982. I would make a special plea to the Leader of the House — I do not know whether a decision has been made on this Bill yet — that we as a group have had a Bill on the death penalty on the Seanad Order Paper for seven years and the least the Government can do is to introduce the abolition of hanging in this House rather than in the Dáil. I would ask the Leader of the House to make representations for the Minister for Justice immediately before the Bill is published so that it will be published as a Seanad Bill because this House would do it justice. The last Bill dealing with the abolition of capital punishment was introduced in 1981. Unfortunately that fell because the Dáil was dissolved.
Finally, on a matter of order, I noticed Senator Norris in the debate last week was interrupted on a point of order by a Member on the Fianna Fáil side for reading his statement. This was probably correct, although there is some sort of ambiguity about statements. There is a tendency creeping into the business of this House where people are reading speeches, and that is against the traditions and the rules of this House. Perhaps, the Leas-Chathaoirleach could watch that fairly carefully. I am not going to interrupt someone when they have prepared a speech and taken a lot of trouble over it, but it is against the rules of this House for people to read speeches.
I would like the Seanad to consider an urgent matter under Standing Order 29 in view of the fact that the Seanad will not be sitting for a number of weeks. That is why we call on the Minister for Finance to locate an office of the Ordnance Survey in the mid-west centred in Limerick in line with Government policy——
What about Clare?
——of decentralisation.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
You can sumit that in writing, Senator.
I ask the Leader of the House if it would be possible to arrange, as a matter of urgency, for a debate on pollution. Yesterday the season of the fish kills opened when concrete was dumped into a lake in Galway thus destroying the fish. This has been the pattern over the last few summers and there is a great need for an increase in awareness of the awful difficulties caused by pollution and the effects it can have on the environment and on our tourist industry.
Labhair mé sa Seanad inné ar feadh beagnach uair a' chloig ar an mBille Leasa Shóisialaigh agus, gan chóras aistriúcháin bheadh sé chomh maith agam bheith amuigh ar thaobh na sráide. Má bhíonn ormsa mo chuid óráidí a scríobh amach i mBéarla agus iad a léamh anseo, beidh mé ag briseadh na rialacha, mar a dúirt an Seanadóir Ross ansin. Nílim ag iarraidh é sin a dhéanamh. Bíodh go bhfúil geallúint tugtha go mbeidh an córas aistriúcháin againn tar éis na Cásca, tá an oiread sin nithe geallta nach bhfuil déanta, go bhfuil imní orm faoi. Dá bhrí sin tá mé ag iarraidh ar an Chathaoirleach agus ar Cheannaire an Tí a chinntiú go mbeidh an córas aistriúcháin insealbhaithe roimh an samhradh seo.
I rise to support the call of Senator Ross for legislation to abolish the death penalty. I think this House would indeed do justice to that very important legislation if it was introduced here. I should like to state for the record that the wording of the Independent's motion that has been on the Order Paper for so long is virtually a direct lift from the motion on the same matter put forward by my former colleague, Mrs. Gemma Hussey.
What we have heard from the Acting Leader of the House today and yesterday is incredible. Yesterday a guillotine was imposed on the Social Welfare Bill——
No, that is not true.
Yes, it was.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Costello, without interruption.
It was at variance with what was agreed by the Whips. We were lectured by the Acting Leader about the need for Senators to go along with what was agreed while he proposed that we would have three hours to debate all stages of the Social Welfare Bill, which concerns one of the largest spending Departments. Again today there is a proposal for a guillotine, which has not been agreed by the Whips, in relation——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
As far as I am concerned there is no proposal for a guillotine.
On a point of order, there was no guillotine on the Social Welfare Bill. The fact is that when the Bill was debated in Committee the Labour Party were not present. They did not have the guts to——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Costello without interruption.
I would appreciate your protection to speak without interruption. The Order Paper refers to the Second Stage of the Defence (Amendment) Bill and does not refer to all stages. This is an extremely important Bill which took a long time to debate in the Dáil. Many important issues arose during that debate, and it is totally unacceptable that we should now be told by the Acting Leader that we are to dispose of it today. This is unacceptable.
I want to raise the question of a death in an Irish prison this morning. Yesterday I raised the question of the trouble in a British prison, Strangeways, but the Acting Leader felt that it was not relevant here. I dispute that because the British prisons and the Irish prisons are very similar in their operation. This is the fourth death in the space of five months in our prisons. Because this problem is clearly escalating and getting out of control I ask the Acting Leader of the House to give us time for a discussion on the incidence of deaths in prisons, the causes and the need for prison reform.
By way of information, I accept that a guillotine was not applied to the Social Welfare Bill. We were given as much time as we required to debate the Bill yesterday evening.
I would like to refer to item No. 89 on the Order Paper which calls on the Government to clarify, as a matter of urgency, their position regarding the implications of the Supreme Court's decision in Shelly v. District Justice Mahon. I raised this matter with the Leader of the House on 22 March. At that time the Leader said he would speak to the Minister for Justice and get back in touch with me. I raised this matter again last week but the Leader did not reply to my question. I want to ask again if the Government have made any decision on how they will handle this matter in view of the serious implications involved.
With regard to the point raised by Senator Costello, I think, in the interests of fair play to the prison service who do a marvellous job, that we should have an early discussion on the problems in various institutions. From my own experience, I know they have a very difficult task. The medical service needs to be stepped up and more use should be made of the Central Mental Hospital in Dundrum, so that people who are not well will not be put into institutions which are overcrowded.
I want to refer to the remark made by Senator Fallon. The Senator should have checked with the Whips before he made the outrageous statement that the Labour Party did not have the guts to vote against the Social Welfare Bill. The fact is that the Labour Party voted against the Bill in the Dáil. I considered the matter and said that because it was a money Bill which had to go for early signature we would not cause any unnecessary delay but would record our opposition to it. When we were asked if we agreed to the Bill we said no.
I said it last night.
If Fianna Fáil want to keep ringing the bell just to have us walk through the lobby we will facilitate them.
There was a bit of consternation on the Fianna Fáil side in case we would call for a vote.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator McGowan to reply.
First, in reply to Senator Ryan, we did not threaten to use the guillotine on the Social Welfare Bill or the Defence (Amendment) Bill. We have not mentioned or considered a guillotine——
That is what you stated yesterday.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator McGowan without interruption.
We have not mentioned a guillotine. I am asking for the co-operation and the agreement of the House to take the Defence (Amendment) Bill today. I do not think that is too much to ask for.
I am sorry, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, is the Senator asking for our agreement today or is he asking us to be helpful? If we agree, we will be agreeing to finish the debate today, which is different.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator McGowan, without interruption.
I am not going to get tied up in phrasing the same matter several ways. We propose to take all Stages of the Defence (Amendment) Bill today. We will co-operate to the fullest in ensuring that every Member of the House who wants to contribute will have the opportunity of doing so. There are no waffle about it. That is the straight message.
Senator Ross asked for the opportunity to discuss the death penalty. When the Minister was here during the debate on the Larceny Bill he referred to his intention to introduce legislation for the abolition of the death penalty, which he has since done in the Dáil. I welcome the Minister's initiative in this regard and I believe our concern is being attended to by the Minister.
Senator Upton asked for a debate on pollution. I do not think that there will be any difficulty about that. I suggest that this matter should be put down for discussion at the Whips meeting so that there will be no difficulty. I believe every Member of the House would welcome the opportunity to have a debate on pollution.
Senator Pól Ó Foighil referred to the delay in providing a translation service. We would support any initiative in this regard. We are not making enough progress. Perhaps we can co-operate more here. Senator Costello mentioned the question of prisoners and the difficulties being encountered both here and in England. That concern is shared by all Members of the House and I hope we will be able to have a debate about it. We will bring this matter forward for early consideration at the Whips' meeting.
Senator Neville was interested in item No. 89. I will speak to the Leader of the House and I hope we can get agreement here also. Senator Harte is most co-operative. The Labour Party and others had the complete co-operation of the Leader of the House in dealing with the Social Welfare Bill when we switched that business from Friday to Tuesday to suit Members of that side of the House. There is no question, therefore, of a guillotine or any intention to press business through against the wishes of anybody in the House. We are co-operating very satisfactorily on the flow of business thanks to the useful meetings we have on Thursdays. Where there is complaint and lack of satisfaction I would strongly urge that they be brought forward at the meeting of the Whips.
On a point of order, would it not be in order for Senator Fallon to withdraw his remarks, having been corrected by Senator Harte?
I was here last evening. The charge was made by Senator Costello that there was an attempt to guillotine the Social Welfare Bill. That was totally inaccurate because it went on until almost 9 o'clock. He should withdraw that allegation.
An Leas-Cathaoirleach
Is the Order of Business agreed?
I certainly agree that Senator Upton did oppose me, but they did not vote against it.
Senator Fallon has made an allegation in relation to what I have said and I must have the opportunity to correct it. The Acting Leader of the House stated that he wanted to take all Stages even though it had not been agreed. The record of the House will speak for itself.
Order of Business agreed to.