I am very grateful to the Seanad for the very constructive way it has approached this debate in which all the important matters were touched on by various Senators. I would just like to put one or two things into perspective and emphasise my approach to the Bill which I think the Seanad appreciates. First, it is important to keep in mind that this is an enabling Bill, which provides for the type of consultation that everybody agrees is so necessary. If this was not an enabling Bill, incorporating all the various suggestions being made here, it would then be a Bill imposing various matters upon the members of the Defence Forces. What I am seeking to do in the Bill is provide the enabling framework within which the regulations can be made providing for the establishment of the representative bodies. All of the details with regard to the establishment of these bodies should be worked out in consultation with the elected representatives of the Defence Forces personnel. It is they who are the important people to be consulted. We in the Oireachtas have to provide the framework within which the election can take place and the representative bodies can be established. Their mandate can be spelt out in detail in the regulations. The format of the structures to be put in place not just for today or tomorrow but for a substantial period of time, can be embodied in the regulations to be drawn up after consultation. That is the important difference.
Amendments have been tabled here, as in the other House, which seek to incorporate in the Bill matters which will be included in the regulations in the Bill. I do not think they are suitable for incorporation in the Bill. I am giving a guarantee here in principle that these matters will be included in the regulations, the details to be worked out with the representatives themselves. We would do the representatives of the men and the Defence Forces personnel themselves a great disservice if we decide to pre-empt here what is good for them. What I am saying is that we should let them come forward for consultation with the official side and work out the details and when they have been formulated, they can incorporate in the regulations setting up the structures under which the representatives of the Defence Forces personnel will work. That is a much more satisfactory way of doing it.
I wish to emphasise there is no difference between us in principle in terms of what should or should not be included in the mandate of the representative bodies. All matters relating to pay, conditions of service, welfare, housing, health, recreation and credit may be incorporated in the regulations. Such matters are incorporated in the regulations under the Garda code setting up their representative bodies. We are going to do precisely the same for the Defence Forces. They have worked very well in the case of the Garda representative bodies which were established under enabling legislation that is almost on all fours with this legislation.
I want to emphasise that if we start to put matters into the legislation that we feel are good and proper we would be pre-empting what may come from the representatives of the men themselves. In assuming that role here within the Oireachtas we would prevent consultation taking place. What I want to do is provide a flexible framework within which consultation can take place. That was exactly the approach taken in the case of the Garda representative bodies and it worked very well.
I wish to give a guarantee here, as I did in the other House, that the regulations, the details of which are to be worked out, will incorporate all matters which all interested bodies and I agreed should be incorporated in regulations following the establishment of the Garda representative bodies.
There are a number of such matters. I have mentioned the range of welfare matters and services which will be of concern to the representative bodies. There is also the question of whether there should be one body for the men and NCOs and one body for the officers. That appears to be the preferred option. I have an open mind on that matter but it seems that is the way in which the bodies interested in this matter are proceeding, and I would go along with that.
Discussions are taking place at present between the returning officer, Mr. Timothy Sexton, a principal officer in the Department of the Environment, and the interested parties within the Defence Forces with a view to setting up the mechanism for the election which I would hope to have ready in a matter of weeks following discussion. All sides are agreed that after the election the parties concerned, senior Army headquarters people, the Department of Defence and the elected representatives, should get down to working out the details of the matters in connection with which Senator Ryan has put down some amendments. Before Senator Ryan came in I explained that there is no difference between us. We can discuss his amendments on Committee Stage, but it boils down to a question of whether the matters should be incorporated in the regulations or in the legislation. I am strongly of the view that they should be incorporated in the regulations. This would provide a more flexible instrument and would be of greater service to the men who could from time to time, add to the list of welfare areas or amend or improve the existing list of welfare areas. All in all, they will have in the regulations a flexible instrument within which they can operate the administration of their representation mandate over the wide area of pay, conditions and a whole range of welfare areas.
With regard to how they should be run, as I have assured everybody concerned in the other House this will be an independent body within the fullest meaning of that word. They will be independent of Army command when it comes to specific matters within their mandate. Army command, discipline and all these matters are an essential aspect of Army administration but, within their mandate, it is the representative bodies who will have authority. In the other House Deputy Bell was very strongly of the view that command and discipline should be kept strictly apart — and this is written into the legislation — from pay, conditions of service and welfare. PDFORRA have made it quite clear that that is the way they want it too.
Other aspects that will form part of the regulations are the manner in which the secretariat will be established, the freedom to take on outside experts, the idea of having, as the Garda Síochána have, a location in an outside barracks, if they wish, and access to the media. Of course, under their constitution they are guaranteed access to the media and now they will be guaranteed access to the media once this Bill becomes law — there will be no further doubt about that. This access can be decided by way of regulation or part of a regulation. The representatives of the men will be concerned about how, and in what circumstances the appointed spokesman can make his presentation or report to the media on a whole range of issues. They will decide how to do this. I hope they will have the very same authority as the Garda representative bodies when it comes to their spokesmen having access to the media. There can be no question of any curtailment of that right, which is a free right under the Constitution. Details may have to be worked out to the satisfaction of everybody concerned but that matters which come within the compass of the representatives can be worked out in consultation and incorporated in the regulations. This is a matter that cannot be written into legislation and if you try, you will be restricting the regulations.
I want to emphasise that I do not want to write into legislation anything that might pre-empt the process of consultation that will take place with the representatives of the men because it is after that process of consultation that the agreed views will be incorporated in the regulations. If we try to limit that process by writing in a range of restrictions into the legislation, we will inevitably get into trouble, because (a) we will be pre-empting consultation and (b) no matter how brilliant we are here in the Seanad, we will not be in a position to put down an exhaustive list that will cover every option and requirement. Inevitably something will be left out and this will create chaos. It is much more straightforward in legislation of this kind — this was the approach adopted with the Garda representative body — to provide the enabling framework and then to let the consultation process start with the elected representative prior to devising the agreed structures and manner in which the associations can operate. As regards access to the media all these details can be worked out and incorporated in regulations. The representatives of the men are the people best fitted to do this and it would be a mistake for us to get into that.
I know the intention is good. I am not disputing Senator Ryan's intention nor did I dispute the intention of people in the other House who sought to write many of these matters into the legislation. I agree with the Senator but I think in everybody's interests, particularly the representatives of the men, it is much better that they should be party to that because they know best. Irrespective of what may have happened in regard to consultation in the past — I am not going into that — as far as the future is concerned, it is very important that when it comes to the nitty-gritty of how the associations are to be established and the manner in which they will function, the representatives of the men are fully involved.
The same applies to the level of funding. Members of PDFORRA and other people interested in having representation for Defence Force personnel were very keen that a degree of independence would be given to these bodies by enabling them to establish their own funding arrangements. That is conceded, that is sensible. I gave guarantees in the other House that we would help them officially by providing them with accommodation and other facilities. There are plenty of ways in which we can help officially within the Army structure, but without prejudice to their capacity to raise additional funds for additional purposes, this may not be covered at official level. That is the way the Garda representative body work. In some respects they get help at official level and in other respects they get help by way of subscriptions raised by themselves. However, this is a matter which can be worked out in the regulations.
The most important innovation in this Bill — this part did not come in for much comment in the Seanad — is the provision of conciliation and arbitration. If this system was not established at this time much of the good in setting up representative bodies would be dissipated. While the setting up of representative bodies merely to make representations, etc. is desirable in the interests of public relations, letting off steam, as it were, it does not have any concrete end product unless there is a system of conciliation and arbitration in place. One can make all the representations in the world but when it comes to the point of not making any progress, it is essential that there is a system of conciliation in place to try to achieve progress and, if that fails then an arbitration system. In that way there is a guarantee that the end product of all the discussions and the representations will be some findings by way of the ultimate arbitration system. That is exactly how the system has operated in regard to the whole of the public service and, in particular, the Garda Síochána. This system has worked out in a very practical way and is really the most important matter in the legislation. If I were asked to put my finger on the most important matter in the legislation I would say the conciliation and arbitration scheme because it takes out of the Bill the talking shop category and makes it real.
If in addition to a representative body structure or structures we have a functioning system of conciliation and arbitration — that is the whole purpose of the Bill and will be a major part of the regulations when they are established — it will give real teeth to the whole process. This means that this Bill and the whole process will mean something at the end of the day as far as the men are concerned. This right they are now being given has been enjoyed by the rest of the public service for some time. It means that the Defence Forces have now really come under the umbrella of the whole C and A system, which has been accepted as valid for the public service, including the Garda Síochána. This has now been extended to them and they will have their own specific conciliation and arbitration system relating to their requirements.
Another aspect commented on related to the association's relationships with other bodies and trade unions. Here again the association will be independent and that is very important, but it will not be debarred from such affiliation or association provided it is done with the consent of the Minister. It is legitimate that the Minister should be involved in any such approval of their association witho outside bodies because the Minister, on behalf of the Oireachtas, carries the ultimate responsibility of overall authority in regard to the Defence Forces.
The Defence Forces are an important constitutional entity within the State and it is important that if a group within the Defence Forces affiliates with outside bodies such outside bodies should have the approval of the Minister. There are plenty of outside bodies that would obviously get approval automatically, for example, specialised areas within the Army and trades areas. Electricians or engineers may want to be members of outside bodies related to electricians or engineers and that is perfectly legitimate. Any association of that kind would obviously get approval. However, as Deputy Bell pointed out in the other House, there are other areas where association with such bodies may run counter to the national interest. This will be so only in exceptional cases and then it should be for the Minister to look at the matter and tease out whether it is desirable that such an association or affiliation should take place. There is nothing more to it than the requirement of the consent of the Minister which is perfectly legitimate. The independence of the association is emphasised.
I want to emphasise something else. The word that is now used in certain circumstances is "suspension", not "dissolution" as Senator Costello said. We changed that on Report Stage in the Dáil. The Senator may have been looking at an older copy of the legislation.
In section 2 one should read subsections (4), (5), (6) and (7) together. They seek to ensure that once these bodies have been established by way of elections, like the Garda representative bodies — we will assume now that it is one body for the officers and one body for the other ranks — that they be given a certain statutory legitimacy, in other words, supported by legislation and regulation. These sections are designed to prevent a proliferation of such bodies after this becomes law. If this is not prevented there is a danger of frustrating the progress we are trying to make. By leaving the way open to all sorts of bodies to establish subsequently one is obviously opening the door to a state of anarchy. However bad it is not to have representation, it would be highly undesirable to allow representative bodies in every barracks and unit in the country.
What is proposed is in ease of the legitimate elected body. Everybody who has an interest in it, including the PDFORRA people who have shown themselves to be interested in it, will see the importance of that. On a first reading it appears to be against civil liberty that we should be legislating here and determining that there should not be other bodies but it is in protection of the legitimate body or bodies we will be establishing that we are setting out these rules. There is no point in having all sorts of other bodies in the Defence Forces and claiming to represent men in relation to pay and conditions and various other matters. The trade union movement have proven the legitimacy of the idea of one big union and have made tremendous progress towards that in amalgamations that are proceeding at present. One of the weaknesses in the Irish trade union movement over the years was a proliferation of unions.
In the Defence Forces it is highly desirable that the bodies that are being established now by statute speak with one cohesive voice, that there is one cohesive organisation speaking for the NCOs and the men on the one hand and one cohesive body speaking on behalf of the officers and that we do not leave the door open to a proliferation of such bodies and a state of anarchy in regard to representation. I want to emphasise that because it has come in for a certain amount of misrepresentation largely, out of misunderstanding. Senator Costello in particular emphasised that aspect. Deputy Bell in the other House has a certain amount of experience in this area. As a member of the Defence Forces of long standing and of a trade union, he understood it perfectly and made some very valuable contributions on this aspect in the other House.
In general the Bill is an enabling one. Issues arising will be dealt with by way of regulations after consultation. I am thankful to the House for the way they have addressed the matter here today because it means we can make progress without rushing the Bill through. Already we have initiated talks on the election with the various representatives who are at the moment discussing the details of the election process with the principal officer of the Franchise Section of the Department of the Environment. Immediately after that we will go into the preparation of the regulations and there should not be too much difficulty in that because over the whole range of pay and the definition of pay and remuneration, conditions of service, welfare matters and conciliation and arbitration, there is very little difference between us and any of the spokesmen for the interested bodies in the Defence Forces. There is practically complete agreement.
As I said initially, we have now practically reached agreement on the fact that there should be one body for privates and NCOs and one body for officers. I would see the regulations being devised fairly quickly and all of this in operation in a matter of months after the election which could take place weeks after the passage of the legislation. That is the sort of timetable I envisage and that, linked with the conclusions of the Gleeson Commission which should be to hand in June, should mean that by autumn this year we should be in a positive position in regard to the representative bodies and the implementation of pay and conditions of service appropriate to our Defence Forces.
I am glad it has taken this turn because for a while, due to misunderstanding, there was a certain lack of communication on the matter. We have surmounted that hurdle now and everybody recognises that we are going somewhere. It is very important that we do so on a totally apolitical plane because this is a national matter rather than a party political matter. I emphasise that here.
The state of health of the Defence Forces is basic to any civilised society and particularly to our own because they have important roles vis-á-vis their aid to the civil power here. They will always have an important role in backing the State on the Northern Ireland problem. They will always be an essentail element here more than in most other countries. There has been a traditional attachment between the armed forces and the community, a traditional regard and mutual respect. Too much that is valuable has been built up over the years to dissipate and we are not going to allow it to be dissipated. It is on the rails now through the process of consultation that has commenced and that will succeed.
I am thankful to the Oireachtas for enabling this Bill to go through in a constructive manner. I can assure them that it will not be long-fingered. Having helped to create the climate that is there now, I am most anxious that the matter be proceeded with as expeditiously as possible and that the matters we are discussing here will be resolved so that the niche which has been established by the Defence Forces for themselves can be there on a permanent basis by having satisfied Defence Forces in tune with the public and not at odds in any way with us here in the Houses of the Oireachtas, with the Government of the day or with the public at large. It is most important that the Defence Forces be integrated into the community and be given due recognition for that fact. I hope when this Bill becomes law and in particular when the regulations come into effect that recognition will be seen to be real and will bear fruit.