It is proposed to continue Committee Stage of the Environmental Protection Agency Bill until 6.30 p.m. We will have a sos from 2 p.m. to 4 p.m. and at 6.30 p.m. we will have the Fine Gael motion, motion 48 on the Order Paper.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, first, I wish the Irish team every success today. I am sure I am saying that for everybody here.
I wish to raise one very serious matter on the Order of Business. At the present time there are discussions taking place which affect the future of this country in a very profound way — defence, security, the role of Parliament and so forth. I am referring to discussions on the future development of the European Community. It is a matter of public scandal that there has been no in-depth debate, no debate at all, on these matters in either House of the Oireachtas. We do not know the mind of the Government. There has not been a chance for the Opposition groups to make their views known on these matters, which in many ways represent as big a quantum leap as did joining the Community in the first place. I ask the Leader of the House to consider as a matter of urgency a one-day debate on developments in the European Community. I know there is a heavy programme of business, but my group certainly would be prepared to meet on a Tuesday or a Friday to have this debate. It is in the public interest and I ask him to look at it very seriously.
First, it is important that the House would wish Ireland well this afternoon in the match.
I would like to put on the record of the House that Senator Shane Ross has left the Independent group as of today. I would like to wish him well and to thank him for his contribution to the Independent group over the years. I know this is not strictly on the Order of Business but it is important that we would note that. I would like to bring to the attention of those Members on the Government side of the House who appear to be somewhat worried about it — particularly Senator O'Keeffe, who raised it twice last week — that five is the number required by the Standing Orders of the House for group status. That is the first point. The second point is: are you not lucky, because we are a lot easier to deal with as a group than we would be as individuals. Whatever happens the numbers we will continue——
I want to remind you that you are very much individuals, even in the group.
We are sorry to hear the others have lost their individuality and I would wish that Senator Ross would retain at least his individuality now that he has become merged——
(Interruptions.)
I have raised for the past number of weeks with the Leader of the House the question of a debate on education. We are at the stage this year where the Minister for Education is producing a Green Paper and hopes to introduce an Education Bill. I have asked and have got a commitment that the issue of an Education Bill would be debated and I am asking the Leader of the House a direct question; can we now settle a date for a full debate on education, as we have agreed and as has been called for from all sides of the House?
I would also like to know the progress being made on the proposed Education Bills we are hearing about, when they will be introduced and if they will be introduced to this House.
Finally, on education, does the Leader of the House have a reply on the issue I raised recently about the training of teachers and its implications for the amalgamation or merger between Thomond College and Limerick University and the requirement that an Irish qualification or competency in Irish would be included in that? I would like to hear the views on that.
We have raised on a number of occasions previously the need to sit later at night to get through the business. There is a huge amount of business coming through. It would not be proper that debates like the one I have called for on education and the one Senator Manning has called for on Northern Ireland, which I fully support, should be ruled out because of time and other business. I believe we should sit later to get through our business.
On behalf of the Labour Party I would like to wish the Irish team well this afternoon. It would be great to see them winning again.
In relation to the debate on the prisons which the Leader of the House indicated he would be giving to us in the middle of May, can he be more definite and give us a date at this stage when it is going to take place? Obviously, I support Senator O'Toole in relation to the education debate. It would be great if we could get a specific date for that debate as well because there have been so many developments in the education arena in recent times.
I would like to welcome the talks on Northern Ireland which are just about to begin under the Brooke initiative. The House should acknowledge that. Indeed, we sought the other day to have an opportunity in the House to express our opinions in relation to Northern Ireland, particularly in relation to the present talks. Would the Leader of the House consider facilitating us to do that? At least, we should have an opportunity to make statements. May I ask if the Leader of the House could give us an elucidation in relation to the Minister for the Environment's three week blitzkreig on potholes in the country?
That is on the Order of Business.
Can he indicate to us what county council have the funding or the names to deal with the problem?
In view of the great anxiety and confusion farming circles about the future of the industry and because of the fact that Mr. MacSharry visited the United States this week and that the GATT talks now seem to have been resurrected, may I ask the Leader of the House if he would make time available to discuss the very serious situation in agriculture? There is also the matter of angel dust and so on. I realise this is something we discussed during the last session but I think the speed of change is such that we need to come back to it. I recommend to the Leader of the House that short statements are the best way of doing this in terms of efficiency of time use in the House. I urge him to make time available for these urgent matters.
I also join in the calls for a wide-ranging debate on European political and monetary union because of the developments which are taking place there.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he would convey to the Minister for Justice and the Minister for Agriculture and Food the concern of my party and my own personal concern from the point of view of the use of public moneys——
That is not a question.
Would the Leader of the House convey to those Ministers our concern about Ballybay Meats, the unemployment problem there and the use of public moneys there? It is a matter of serious concern for the local people and it is a national issue.
There is a mechanism by which the Senator can pursue that matter.
I will bring it up by the other mechanism as well, but I ask the Leader of the House to give it urgent consideration.
May I join with the other Members who are looking for a broad debate on European affairs? Before getting into this particular debate we should look at the reports coming from Europe. The reports we get on European Community matters tend to be up to two years too late. If we are going to have this broad debate we would need to have up-to-date reports from the European Community. I would like to ask the Leader of the House, therefore, if he would find out if we could get more up-to-date reports. In the past we debated reports from the Joint Committee on Secondary Legislation of the European Communities and I ask the Leader to bring reports from that committee before this House. They were brought forward on a regular basis previously and gave a reasonable opportunity to the House to debate European matters. Of course, European matters take in GATT and aid to Third World countries.
On the question of the new Member on the Fine Gael benches, I presume he is taking his place on those benches to fight for the rights of this House, that he will not be looking for a seat in Wicklow but that he will be fighting for this House as he always fought for it and that this House will not be used as a springboard by him or anybody else.
Allow Senator Ross to rest.
Could I take up the point made by Senator Lanigan — not the last one — and by Senator Manning on the request for a debate on foreign affairs? We have a situation now where a new and prestigious institute for European affairs has been set up outside this House and that highlights all the more the glaring lack of any mechanism for discussing foreign affairs. During the week there was a report that the formation of an Oireachtas committee on foreign affairs is imminent. I ask the Leader of the House if he knows anything about that and whether he is alert to the need to have Seanad representation on that committee.
May I also say that if we decide to so change the Order of Business that we can watch a ball game, then we should say so; we should not be coy about it. It was only last night that the penny dropped with me, I was wondering why we were meeting at these peculiar hours. These things should be said beforehand.
The Senator can put the question and he will get a reply.
May I offer the information to the House and to my colleagues here on these sadly depleted benches that, if we are to be referred to as a group, actually we are University Senators; "Independent Senators" is a misnomer because independence is not an immutable condition of being a University Senator.
(Interruptions.)
Senator Murphy, without interruption.
For all I know, Senator Ryan may have defected, it being May Day. Senator Ross was a particularly close colleague of mine on these benches and I want publicly to wish him well and to observe that a Ross under any other name would smell as sweet.
May I strongly support the call for a debate on agriculture — and I am not going to break into a speech on agriculture — on the grounds that farming organisations are happy to criticise the present strutures but they are doing nothing about the 100 per cent of EC support to the 20 per cent who are sitting back and enjoying that support.
On behalf of the Fine Gael group may I welcome Senator Ross to the benches. We are delighted he chose us and I hope he has a very successful future with the Fine Gael Party.
I would like to support the call for a debate on European affairs in this House. It is particularly pertinent that this House should lead the way and continue to debate regularly this most important issue. We are into the whole area of concern surrounding what is now referred to as the democratic deficit. There is one way we can help alleviate this problem, that is by continuous and regular debates to keep on top of the very fast moving progress and to keep in touch with the IGCS in this area. The Taoiseach indicated in the past 24 hours that a referendum would probably be necessary before the end of next year; therefore, I urge the Leader of the House to accede to the request from all sides for continuing debates on this area which will affect all our futures.
May I also request that time be made available for a debate on the whole area of ODA and the Third World. There are major problems on the African continent at the moment and this is being swallowed up in the media by ongoing disasters elsewhere, such as the Kurdish problem and now the problem in Bangladesh, etc. If we could include a debate on this as soon as possible I think it would have all-party and all group support in this House.
Finally, will the Leader of the House indicate what progress is being made in relation to the establishment of the foreign affairs committee. All the points I have made, and indeed most of the points made here this morning, could be taken care of under the umbrella of such a committee. I am not aware of what has happened since the Taoiseach's initial indication that he views favourably the establishment of that committee. I would like the Leader to indicate the progress on the matter and when we can expect some action in this most important area.
First, I do not share the general joy at Senator Ross' departure from these benches. In fact, as you may have noticed, Sir, I am in mourning for the demise of Senator Ross' innocence and his independence. But I ought to wish him well and I hope his rapier wit and critical intelligence will not be blunted by joining a political party. As for the notion of the Seanad being used as a springboard, I thought it a particularly unfortunate remark. So far as Senator Lanigan is concerned, this springboard was used to notoriously bad effect since he did not succeed in even being elected here at the last general election. I would like to ask the Leader of the House, following from what Senator Murphy said, if the fact that we are adjourning to watch a football match between the hours of 2 p.m. and 4 p.m. is an indication of the Government's priorities. This is a serious point and it ought to be made. We are paid to come here and to legislate——
The Senator has put the question. He has made his point.
Did you not get a ticket?
I did not apply for one. I think it is important that we display respect for what is one of the principal institutions of the State and show that respect in everything we do. May I also ask if the Government will give time to debate a motion which Senator Murphy and myself will be tabling today about the scandalous situation in which serving Members of the Oireachtas are still entitled to draw State pensions. This will be put on the Order Paper by tomorrow and I would like to ask if the Government will be prepared to give time to discuss it. It is a matter of interest to Members of all parties and groups.
I also concur with the request for information about the committee on foreign affairs. There is on the supplementary Order Paper a very detailed motion, in the names of myself and some other Senators, looking for the establishment of such a committee. It is important that we have a debate before the committee is established for a particular reason. That reason is important and relates——
I think the Senator has made his point sufficiently.
No, I have not, Sir.
I think you have.
The reason is that we must know the——
Have you a question for the Leader of the House?
It is insulting to this House to read in the daily newspapers that an announcement will be made next week——
Have you a question to put to the Leader of the House?
The question is if he will give time for a debate on an item on the supplementary Order Paper dealing with the establishment of a Foreign Affairs Committee so that this House can discuss it before it is forced upon us.
May I support Senator Dardis in his request to the Leader of the House for a debate on agriculture, and particularly with regard to the unquantifiable damage the ever-increasing use of angel dust in causing to the agricultural industry and to the beef industry. Secondly, may I ask the Leader of the House if he can tell us when the Local Government Reform Bill will be introduced.
I wish to support my colleagues on the possibility of having a debate on agriculture. To back that argument I would like to repeat what I said last week, which is that farm incomes will fall this year by about 11 per cent.
We cannot allow repetition.
No other sector in the community would accept the prospect of a drop. Last week we had outright condemnation——
Senator, a question must be put to the Leader of the House.
——of a group who were looking for a small increase and they brought the country to a standstill. I am asking, as a matter of urgency at this stage, that the Leader would agree to a debate on agriculture.
I, too, would like to add my voice to the request to the Leader of the House for an urgent debate both on agriculture, having regard to the falling incomes, and the proposed changes in the Common Agricultural Policy. I would also like to support Senator Doyle in her request for an urgent debate on the African famine. In view of the tremendous importance of both topics not only for the agricultural industry but on development aid, would the Leader of the House consider using the new Standing Orders and perhaps inviting the Commissioner for Agriculture to address the House on the agricultural debate to explain his changes and perhaps invite a person such as the Bishop of Galway, Dr. Casey, to speak to the House on the whole question of famine in Africa?
First, I want to ask the Leader if he appreciates that there is a very serious situation with regard to the prospects for beef exports during 1991. That applies both to the live sector and the dead meat sector. This is allied to the whole question of agriculture and I support all the requests for a debate on that matter. Having regard to the continuing worsening state of agricultural incomes, we should have an urgent debate. As I mentioned previously in this House, the position in agriculture needs to be monitored on an ongoing basis. Is it appreciated that the situation in 1991 for Irish farmers as far as their income is concerned is extremely gloomy and serious? I return to my question about the beef sector and ask what is being done to promote and establish markets for beef and live cattle. These are vital. In the context of the CAP and GATT it is essential that we have an in-depth——
I must ask the Senator to put a question.
I ask the Leader: do we have to wait much longer for this much requested debate on agriculture? I believe it is urgent. When can we expect also an in-depth discussion on health having regard to the serious position that exists in the health area? Finally, when is it intended to establish the foreign affairs committee referred to already in this House?
I would like to ask the Leader of the House to let us have a debate on the developments in Europe, which are going to have a profound impact on our entire economy. I would like to support the call for a debate on agriculture, but in particular — and I mentioned this here last week — we want a separate debate on the use of illegal drugs. It is not just angel dust. There are many other illegal drugs being used in cattle production, which is our largest item of export. We need also to discuss the influence of subversive organisations in this practice. Since Ballybay Meat has already been raised, we need to discuss also the influence of the subversive organisation in that operation.
At the outset may I say that when I stood to give the Order of Business I noticed an empty space and then I saw Senator Ross in a different place. I would like to wish him well.
There is not actually a space; the chair has been moved.
I would like to wish the Senator well in the discipline of his party and I know he will be successful there.
Senators Manning, Lanigan and others asked for a debate on developments in the EC. There is a long list of legislation before the House. I think we will be sitting three or perhaps four days a week for a number of weeks to come. It is a possibility. Certainly, we will be sitting on Fridays for three or four weeks. We will be sitting late. I, personally have no objection to sitting late, nor has this side of the House. I do not disagree with what has been said that there is need for a debate on EC developments and if I can fit it in sometime, I will certainly do so.
Senator O'Toole asked about fixing a date for a debate on education, which is a fair point. The Minister is anxious for that debate but it is a matter of getting time. I will try to see the Minister today and arrange for a debate as quickly as possible. Perhaps we can arrange it for next week, if possible. I will endeavour to do something about that.
Senator O'Toole also asked about the various Education Bills before us. The Educational Exchange Bill is at present in the other House on Committee Stage. We have the Dublin Institute of Technology Bill and the University of Limerick Bill. In regard to that Bill, I explained to the Minister the concern and the wishes of many Members of the House regarding that matter. I am sure the Minister will endeavour to take them on board. In regard to the Colleges Bill, which is the one giving greater autonomy to the Regional Technical Colleges, I am hopeful that Bill will be initiated in this House.
Senator Costello asked for a debate on the prisons system. I can promise Senator Costello that it will come during the week of May 15th-16th. I am conscious that very firm commitments have been given on that debate and also on education.
Like Senator Costello, we all live in hope of a fruitful conclusion to the talks on Northern Ireland but I have no proposals for a debate or statements on that matter.
Senators Dardis, Byrne and others referred to a debate on agriculture. Legislation is there and will be a priority if it can be arranged. I have no immediate plans for a debate on agriculture or on the area of illegal drugs.
Senator O'Reilly spoke about Ballybay Meats and about conveying his concern to the Minister for Justice and to the Minister for Agriculture and Food. This is not appropriate to the Order of Business. Senator Manning asked for reports on EC secondary legislation. That happened at one time and was used more to fill in than anything else. However, it is something we will consider in the future.
Senator Murphy asked about a foreign affairs committee. I said previously that my understanding was that a foreign affairs committee will be set up this session and I am hopeful there will be Seanad representation on it. Both Senator Murphy and Senator Norris asked, a bit unfairly, about adjourning for a football match. The fact is that the Whips agreed on this. Overall, we will be sitting an extra half hour today.
It is May Day I might add and workers in every other country in Europe have the day off.
In regard to Senator Doyle's comments about European affairs, I accept it is an important matter and we should debate it. Later we will try to arrange for some time for it and also for a debate on the Third World. I accept that that is an urgent matter.
Senator Norris' points were not appropriate to the Order of Business. He indicated there was a motion coming in on State pensions which we will look at when it arrives. Senator Naughten asked about local government reform and a few other matters. My information is that the Local Government Reform Bill is ready to be published, maybe this week or next week, but definitely in the very near future. Senator McDonald also asked for a debate on agriculture and on Third World affairs, while Senator Hourigan asked for a debate on agriculture and on health. Senator Raftery asked for a debate on Europe, on agriculture and on illegal drugs.
I want to clarify with Senator Fallon if there will be a sos between 6 p.m. and 6.30 p.m.
Yes, there will be a sos between 6 p.m. and 6.30 p.m. and we will sit until 8 p.m. tonight.
Order of Business agreed to.