It is proposed today to take Item No. 1 — Statements on the Role of Seanad Éireann — to 6 p.m; there will be a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. and from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. we will take the Labour Party Motion No. 46.
Order of Business.
There are a couple of matters I would like to raise on the Order of Business. First, on behalf of the Members of this Group, and I am sure I speak on behalf of all Members of the House, I would like to condemn in the strongest fashion the outrage at the weekend of the bombing of the Musgrave Park Hospital, which has been described as another new low in relation to atrocities up there. It is an absolute disgrace. I know that at times condemnations are ten a penny in the North in relation to one outrage following another, but I think this represents a new low in the context of outrages committed by the IRA.
Secondly, I would like to mention the Middle East peace talks which began last weekend in Madrid. I am sure all of us wish those talks well in what no doubt will be difficult days ahead. Having regard to the peace-keeping role which Irish troops have so long played in that region, I am sure all of us hope that progress can be made.
Thirdly, on the Order of Business I would like to refer to a request which was made last week for a debate on the ongoing political situation and, as was stated last week, this House has not as yet discussed any of these matters. I know the Leader of the House is indicating he will come back to it, but we will be saying if he does not come back to us positively very shortly it will be our intention to propose an amendment to the Order of Business. Obviously, it is important that even a short debate should take place to discuss ongoing events, which are changing practically by the minute. I look forward to the leader of the House responding positively.
I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business, "That Item No. 10, Register of Members of the Oireachtas Interests Bill, 1991, be inserted before Item No. 1."
I ask the Leader if he will name a day on which a debate on the banking system will take place following the requests of Senators O'Keeffe and Lanigan and indeed some of my colleagues on this side of the House. May I also ask him if there is any significance in the fact that these Senators are now raising this matter some 25 years after the Labour Party first drew attention to problems deriving from the banking system?
I support the condemnation of the bombing of the Musgrave Park Hospital in Belfast. It does the Irish people no good to be silent, because not to condemn such an atrocity would be giving tacit support to those who carried out that outrage. I do not think it helped one bit the cause those people believe they are furthering. Many Irish people are living in England and it certainly makes life difficult for them. Any organisation that bombs a hospital actually has no future and there are very few people on this island who support those who committed that outrage.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House if he will convey to the Minister for the Environment our disappointment at his failure to inform local authorities of the level of rates support grant. Local authorities are at present organising their estimates and they have no information on the level of rates support grants they will receive. I think it is contemptible that the Minister has not informed local authorities of this.
I would like, if I may, to join in condemnation of the bombing of a hospital. It is one of the civilised norms that even in the most brutal open warfare hospitals should be spared from involvement. It was an appalling atrocity. As Senator Cosgrave has rightly said, many expressions of condemnation have been made and I join in them. It emphasises the necessity for the people of peace to get together on some agreement in relation to the North and resume negotiations as, I am sure, the vast majority of people in this House and the vast majority of the people of Ireland would wish.
There is a second matter I would like to raise on the Order of Business. It also in a sense involves hospitals, because also in Europe over the past few days hospitals have been deliberately bombed and patients, including civilians, women and children, have been killed in hospitals in Croatia. This was a shocking atrocity. The situation there is deteriorating. Our Minister and the other European Community ministers have tried to bring about a reasonable settlement there but one party refuses to negotiate. I would like to suggest to the Leader of the House that if this situation deteriorates any further he consider the opportunity for a debate in this House.
May I ask the Leader of the House why there is no Minister present for the resumed debate today on the role of the Seanad? I understood that when this item was discussed on previous occasions, in 1987 and prior to that, there was a Minister in the House. I do not consider that the reforms that are required are simply a matter for ourselves. That is only tinkering at the edges. What we require is fundamental reform, which we cannot bring about ourselves, one of the most important being that the two elections be held on the same day. I am seriously questioning whether we are in a position to fulfil our functions as Senators as defined by the Constitution. I do not think that it is a trivial or an irrelevant matter and I would like to know is there any reason a Minister is not here to listen to the deliberations. They might at least show some interest in the matter.
I would like to ask the Leader if it would be possible in the near future to have a debate in this House on the role of defence in Europe and on our position in regard to that policy and also a debate on our position in regard to neutrality. We should have an open debate and it should commence in the Houses of the Oireachtas, not outside.
I would like to welcome the integration of Coláiste Mhuire gan Smál, or Mary Immaculate Training College, into the University of Limerick and wish them well in the establishment of their two new courses, B.Ed and B.A. degree, and hope that the concurrent models of education would be maintained and developed rather than the consecutive models that are in the established universities. I am glad to note that in the Seanad reform many Senators have looked for the extension of Seanad voting rights to the graduates.
I would also like to ask the Leader of the House if he could seek clarification from the Minister for Education that the promised Green Paper on Education will be before us. I ask if the accord in the Programme for Economic and Social Progress still exists and if the Green Paper will be before us before Christmas, as promised, because the educational issues at the moment are being hotly debated in the media and it is essential that Members of this House would have the opportunity to debate those issues.
I would like to join in expressing my abhorrence of the appalling occurence in Belfast over the weekend. There is a terrible irony in that the most bitter of enemies are sitting down together in the Middle East while we still have a vacuum in Northern Ireland which underlines, as other Senators have said, the need for talks to get underway as soon as possible.
I would like to second formally the proposal by Senator Ryan to put the Bill formerly before us. This was raised over the past number of weeks and I hope the Government will show positive response today.
I would also like to bring to your attention — I consistently do this before the House — that the number of papers laid before the House today is 29 or 30. There is no possible way that we, as legislators can keep a check on those papers going through. As a matter of interest I try to look through them to see if there is anything of interest. Today, for instance, I looked at Item No. 5, State Property Act, 1954 — a report by the Minister for Finance on the sales, exchanges, grants, leases of State lands and waivers, releases and discharges in respect of rents etc. on State lands for the first half of this year. When will we get an opportuntiy to question these matters?
I would like to question a paper laid before the House and to ask when I can raise in debate why the Minister for Defence sold 22 acres of prime land in the Curragh of Kildare to the trustees of the Turf Club for £76,000. I would like to have had the offer to tender on that myself. I would like to know how that decision was made and where we can query it. I would like to know why the Galway Diocesan Trustees were able to buy the national school in Rosmuc for £3. I would like to know where these decisions are taken, how they can be justified, where the accountability lies and indeed was there any mezzanine investor along the way and so on that. It is important that we should check such matters. I have no doubt that some of these properties will be sold on. If I could buy a national school for £3, I could certainly sell it on very quickly and easily for a very substantial profit. As watchdogs we are failing. I am not saying this in any critical way in regard to the Government. It is the way business is done here but it is something we would need to address.
I raised a matter with the Leader last week and I want to raise it again today. I am going to be quite specific so there can be no question or doubt about it. Could we have the names of the next two measures that will be initiated in this House? I have stopped looking for a programme. I just want to know the next two Bills that will be introduced in this House. I do not want anything else except that information.
The final matter I want to raise is the amendments to the Treaty of Rome. The meeting of Heads of State is going to take place in Maastricht within five weeks. I would say without a shadow of doubt that I am probably the only person in this House who has seen the complete version of the proposals on the European treaty. I just happened to come on them by accident rather than anything else because they are confidential documents. We are now heading into something that will affect the lives of generations to come. Senator Honan made reference to one part of it, and I thoroughly agree with her. It is irresponsible of us not to have that debate.
I also think we should use the opportunity to allow MEPs to contribute to the debate here, because there is much here to do with the European Parliament. We have already paved the way for that in the Committee of Procedure and Privileges and I think we should now use the opportunity to allow a full debate and at least to bring to the notice of the Irish people the proposed amendments to the Treaty of Rome. I will not refer to the Continent any more except to say to the Leader that this is not a question of developments in the European Community over the past six months; these are proposals for changing the whole basis on which we operate. Every one of us has a vested interest in it and I ask the Leader, as a matter of priority, that that debate be started in this House as soon as possible. It covers all the areas that have been raised — the whole question of neutrality, sovereignty, foreign policy, the question of the European Parliament, its powers, devolution of powers, the question of legislation, directives, etc.
May I remind Senator Upton that Labour were in Government in 1973-1977, from 1980 to 1981 and from 1983 to 1987. During that time they did nothing to the banks and their operation. I can understand that it is very easy for somebody in the Opposition to talk freely, but when they had an opportunity to take action they did not. May I say I am obviously very pleased that Senator Upton is at one with us on this side of the House on this occasion and we will welcome his support when that debate takes place.
Having said that, may I ask the Leader of the House, if view of the fact that he has given an indication that he is going to allow a debate on the banking system, that that debate would take place sooner rather than later, because there is clear evidence now that the operation of the banks is hampering the growth in employment levels in this country. I view it as an extremely serious matter that deserves the attention of this House in the short term.
I should like to join in the condemnation of the bombing of the hospital in Belfast over the weekend. I would like to ask the Leader of the House if it would be possible to give the House an opportunity of having a greater input into North-South co-operation. I know we have an opportunity of expressing how we stand and how we react to these ever-increasing horrific acts perpetrated by these paramilitary organisations; but could we, as a democratic House, not have a debate to see if we could further North-South co-operation in the economic and social fields and perhaps make a further approach to the leaders of political opinion in the North of Ireland at least to talk to one another? Perhaps they prefer the situation as it is, but that seems to be an extraordinary thing to contemplate.
I would like to join with Senator Conroy in again raising the very difficult situation of the Croats. It seems horrendous that even in the European Community, who have devoted considerable time over the past number of months to this question, nothing tangible is being achieved except witnessing the slaughter of the Croatian people. That question is a very old one. The very first lobby that we, as members of the European Parliament, met in 1973 was a delegation from Croatia looking at that time for independence even though there was a very tough regime there. It is on ongoing problem. I think free Europe should be more responsive to the heartrending pleas of those people.
I would just like to support the call from Senator McDonald for a debate on Northern Ireland. I think it is long overdue. I do not accept it is a matter that is too sensitive for us to discuss. There is remarkably little sensitivity on the part of the Provisional IRA who have sunk to a new low in bombing a hospital. I would like to see that debate, among other things, if possible even today, because it looks as if the Fianna Fáil councillors in Dublin City Council are going to vote in a certain way which will allow Provisional Sinn Féin to sit in the Mansion House and gloat over their carnage. It is very important that we have a debate. Some insensitive things deserve to be said.
I would like also to suggest that we have a debate on the Middle East. I am sure that Senator Lanigan would support this; he has frequently called for it. I support the state of Israel, but I am concerned about the fact that the leader of Israel is somebody whose political bible at the moment appears to be the Old Testament.
Mr. Farrell
I, too, would like to be associated with the condemnation of the bombing of the hospital in Belfast. Indeed, I have condemned those atrocities over the years. I am one of the few here who has attended some of the funerals there and I can assure members they are sad occasions. It is brutal. However there is an old saying: it takes two to tango, and until the UDA and the IRA decide to give up violence no one will give it up. I would suggest that we make a special appeal from this House to both parties.
We know from a recent television programme that at the top the two groups are playing ball with one another and doing business with one another. I believe much of the trouble in the North stems from big business as much as politics, and maybe more so. We know there are problems there with business, all the protection rackets and so on and we know that both groups are involved in this. It is well documentated. I appeal to both of them to come together and issue a statement saying they are going to put down arms to sit at the table and talk. Until both agree to lay down arms we will not have peace in the North. I think the majority of the Unionists are as fed up with the UDA as we are here with the IRA. Until both parties sit down we will not have peace.
There are two points I would like to raise with the Leader of the House. First, I support totally what Senator Hederman said with regard to the presence of a Minister for the debate on the statements on the role of Seanad Éireann. I believe it would be indicative of the Government's attitude to the whole concept of this debate and would indicate how important or otherwise the Government viewed it. I further submit that the presence of a Minister would mean there would be a direct report to the Government on the debate itself. At this stage it might not be inappropriate to suggest that as there is much of that debate to take place yet — perhaps more than two-thirds of it — some arrangements might be made, if possible through the Leader, to have a Minister present. It is a very important point. There should be a ministerial presence for such an important debate as statements on the role of Seanad Éireann.
Secondly, I would like to join with the various speakers who uttered total and outright condemnation of the atrocities in Northern Ireland and in particular the most recent atrocity at the hospital in Belfast. I will make one point in this whole area. Unfortunately, we are all beginning to become conditioned to the developments up there. It is regrettable that while we condemn and deplore them — we are all in agreement on how horrible and horrfic they are — I believe we are taking them now as an everyday occurrence. I believe we all must be more vocal in our condemnation of these acts. In fact, we must take more positive action — whatever positive action we can take by way of debate in this House or whatever.
I conclude by reverting to my original point: that I believe very strongly we should have ministerial presence, if at all possible, for the rest of the debate on the statements on the role of Seanad Éireann, today, next week and for however long the debate lasts.
Before I reply, may I say in relation to Motion No. 46, that I propose, as on similar occasions, that the time allowed for the debate shall not exceed one and a half hours; that the speech of the Senator proposing the motion shall not exceed 20 minutes; and that the speech of any other Senator in the course of the debate shall not exceed ten minutes. I hope the House will agree to that.
In regard to the recent bombings in Musgrave Park Hospital, to my way of thinking it was the worst form of depravity. Anyone who would suggest adding a hospital, no matter who were in the beds of that hospital, to the list of what they call "legitimate targets" is an unbelievable suggestion and certainly I, like other Senators, condemn this barbaric act in the strongest possible way and indeed violence of all kinds in the North from all sides of the divide up there.
Senator Cosgrave mentioned this point. He also referred to the Middle East; and, of course, we will share his views on that. I have no plan for a debate either on Northern Ireland or the Middle East at this time. The Senator also asked for a debate on the ongoing political situation in the country and perhaps the Whips might come together and discuss that matter.
Senator Brendan Ryan proposed an amendment to the Order of Business in regard to Item No. 10. The Senator has again requested — this is the second or third time or perhaps more — that the Order of Business be amended with a view to having leave granted to introduce a Bill. If that happens, an order of course can be made for Second Stage thereby enabling the Bill to be printed and circulated to Members.
For the information of Senators, the background to this is that the initiation of Bills is governed by Standing Orders 79 and 80. Bills presented under Standing Order 80 are automatically printed and circulated. However, there is a proviso in Standing Order 80 which states that a Bill can only be presented by a Senator provided there is not before the Seanad a Bill presented by a Senator nominated by the group. In this case Senator Ryan was precluded from presenting the Bill because Senator Norris has already presented the Interpretation (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill, 1989, on behalf of the Independent group.
Over the past number of weeks Senator Ryan has consistently sought leave to introduce his Bill. I pointed out to Senator Ryan that the kernel of his proposal is included in the Programme for Government, which specifically states: "a register of all Members' material interests will be established from September 1990 and available in the Oireachtas Library". Despite this, Senator Ryan still wishes to pursue the printing of the Bill. I have listened carefully to many Senators from all sides who spoke in support of Senator Ryan's proposal and I certainly do not wish in any way to be restrictive or obstructive. I do not want it to be seen that I am in any way endeavouring to curtail Senator Ryan's rights or those of any other Senator. Therefore, in the interest of co-operation and subject to the agreement of the House, I am prepared to accept Senator Ryan's proposal and include Item No. 10 in today's Order of Business.
Senator Upton referred to the banking system and asked when we may have a debate on it, as did Senator O'Keeffe who has consistently raised this matter. My hope is that in three or perhaps four weeks time or as soon as possible we can have a debate on the matter. I am anxious that should happen.
Senator McGowan referred to the Northern Ireland problem. I will bring to the attention of the Minister for the Environment the comment made by Senator Neville. The question of Croatia was raised by Senator Conroy and others. Much as we would like to see that issue settled I have no proposal at this point to have a debate on that matter.
On the point raised by Senators Hourigan and Hederman in regard to the debate on the role of the Seanad, it was agreed by both sides of the House that there was no need for a Minister to be present. It was agreed that we would conduct our own inquiry and make our own case and that the Committee on Procedure and Privileges would meet subsequently to see what it would do.
Senator Honan and others referred to our defence policy and neutrality after 1992. As I mentioned last week — I have checked further on it — a White Paper will be issued by the Department of Foreign Affairs soon. It would be wise to wait until we get that paper and then have a full discussion on it. As Senator O'Toole said, 1992 is only five weeks away.
I have noted the points made by Senators Jackman, Keogh and O'Toole. I referred to the other points raised in general. Senators Norris, Farrell and Hourigan raised the Northern Ireland problem and also the Middle East.
I have an amendment in the name of Senator Ryan, duly seconded, "That Item No. 10 be inserted before Item No. 1". Is that agreed? Agreed.
Order of Business agreed to.