It is proposed today to take Item No. 2 until 4 p.m., the opening speech of each group leader will be 20 minutes and the speeches of other Senators will be 15 minutes; it is proposed to take a sos from 1.30 p.m. to 2.30 p.m,; at 4 p.m. it is proposed to resume discussion on Item No.4 — the Criminal Damage Bill. If not completed by 6 p.m., it is proposed to continue the debate on the Criminal Damage Bill from 8 p.m. to 9.30 p.m., to conclude all Stages at 9.30 p.m. There will be a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 and from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. we will take Item No. 16, motion No. 58.
Order of Business.
I assume that the Criminal Damage Bill will be completed by 9 30 p.m., but if not, I do not want it to be brought to a conclusion by one question at that stage. I think it will be concluded but if not, perhaps we can go back to it tomorrow or on Friday.
I share Senator Manning's concern about the proposal to guillotine the Criminal Damage Bill at 9.30 p.m. My forecast of yesterday that we would do four Bills in four days seems to be back on target and the Leader is now beginning to look like one of those great cricketers who generate enormous numbers of runs in a very short time.
I was always good at that.
Will the Leader of the House make time available for a debate on Bord na Móna perhaps after Christmas? I am asking that in the context of the report of the Joint Committee on Commercial State-sponsored Bodies which was published yesterday. It is a report which I welcome. It is a very desirable initiative and I am pleased with the recommendations they have made.
I ask the Leader of the House to use his influence on the Government, and through the Government, the EC and in particular the Dutch Government about a matter which I think is deplorable. A group of about 100 Soviet Jews arrived in Holland from Israel some weeks ago and looked for political asylum. They were Jews who had gone from Russia to Israel, found they did not like Israel, left for Budapest and ended up in Holland. Now the Dutch Government are deporting them from Holland and not allowing them to go to any place other than Israel. These people have no passports, they have laissez-faire documents which would indicate that they have a connection with Israel, but this is not true.
An Leas-Chathoirleach
I must ask the Senator to put a question to the Leader of the House.
I ask the Leader to request the Minister for Foreign Affairs to use his influence here because these people do not want to go to Israel.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot discuss the matter, Senator.
They are being sent back by a European Government to a place to which they do not want to go. I feel that influence should be used to stop that.
In view of the Estimates yesterday, the Government now accept the figure of 275,000 as the average weekly unemployment for the whole of next year. May I repeat my request to the Leader that we have a debate on unemployment, which is not covered up in a debate on the Appropriation Bill. If Fianna Fáil do not think unemployment is important enough to debate on its own let them say so. There are a quarter of a million people for whom, it is the most important issue. If the Leader of the House wants to cover it up with the sort of answer he gave me last week about the Apropriation Bill, because he does not think it is important, then let the nation hear that. They have now admitted 275,000 people, on average, every week next year will be unemployed. I call that failure and I think this House should discuss that failure separately from other matters.
Will the Leader of the House convey to the Minister for Justice our concern at the absolutely deplorable decision of a justice to give a suspended sentence to a person who was convicted for the rape of a five year old child. There is some way——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We have no function with regard to the courts.
There should be someway to tidy up the legislation in this area. At a time when people are convicted——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We cannot discuss this. It is a question for the courts.
We have a responsibility in relation to legislation in this House and there are situations where the law can be tidied up. I ask the Leader of the House to request the Minister for Justice to consider bringing in more stringent regulation in relation to this offence. At a time when people are put in jail for the simplest thing, a person convicted of rape is walking the roads. It is absolutely deplorable.
I understand what Senator Brendan Ryan is requesting. It is about time we stopped talking about unemployment. It is time we talked about job creation instead, in this forum where we can analyse the reasons for unemployment and discuss what proposals might emerge. The commitment to employment is certainly not coming from the private sector. We need to examine the question of job creation in the public sector and our attitude to privatisation, etc. In that context we should deal with the question of job creation rather than unemployment. Everybody is talking about unemployment.
I would like to support Senator Upton's call to the Leader for a debate on Bord na Móna in the New Year. As one who is only too well aware of the difficulties of Bord na Móna over the years, I welcome the report of the Joint Committee on Commercial Sponsored Bodies which was announced yesterday. The chairman, Deputy Dick Roche, has made a submission to the Minister recommending that the Government should intervene in an effort to resolve the problem of the never-ending debts of Bord na Móna. It is a vital industry based on a natural resource and giving good employment. I welcome the report. It is a positive step and the Chairman of Bord na Móna, Mr. O'Connor, has welcomed it. The Leader of the House should agree to ask the Minister to speak in this House on this issue.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question to the Leader of the House, please, Senator.
I would also like to support my namesake, Senator Brendan Ryan, on the need for an urgent debate on unemployment. We could also add to the 275,000 unemployment the 300,000 who have already left the country. Many thousands will be coming home this Christmas who would wish to remain in the country.
I am asking the Leader to make every effort to arrange for a debate on this problem which is apparently going to get worse in 1992.
Mr. Farrell
I would like to ask the Leader of the House to convey our congratulations to the Minister for the Environment and the Minister for Justice on the good news on the radio this morning that deaths on the roads are down by 70 in the first ten months of this year.
I would like to ask the Leader if we could have a debate in the New Year on the abuse and misuse of drugs and alcohol which I believe is the underlying cause of many of our social and economic problems and unemployment. I support Senator Harte in his call for a debate on job creation, so that we may have an opportunity of saying how we believe more jobs could be created.
I would like the Leader of the House to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the support of the House for the Anglo-Irish Conference in the light of the appalling atrocities in Northern Ireland and Great Britain. The prospect of resuming talks and starting the three strands of talks perhaps early in the New Year is something we should encourage as much as we possibly can. In the spirit of goodwill at Christmas time we can convey to the people of Northern Ireland, in particular, our concern that deaths and atrocities should not take place over the Christmas period. They should not take place at any other period, but particularly at this time which should be a period of peace.
As a member of the Broadcasting Control Committee it came to my attention at a meeting last week that the proceedings of this House are not permitted to be used on local radio.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
It is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the reason I am raising it here is because the motion was passed in the other House last spring, it was conveyed to Members of this House last July and no action has been taken——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator, it is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
It seems that nobody in this House can have any of their contributions used by local radio even if they so wish. It is a matter of importance to Members on all sides of the House. I ask the Leader of the House to bring forward a motion at the earliest possible opportunity.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House, whether it is possible that the hatchet man who has been at the top of our agricultural research and development authority for some years is now surplus to requirements, to use that lovely public sector expression. Is it possible to expect that the new Minister for Agriculture and Food will show greater sensitivity and appreciation in dealing with this most important sector for our farmers and agri-business in the future?
I would like to support what Senator Mooney said. It is very appropriate that this matter should be raised in this House. It is an outrage that we are treated in this second-class manner and it is an even greater outrage that we are apparently prevented from even raising this matter under the procedures of the House. I strongly support Senator Mooney and I believe the Independent group, although I have not consulted with them, would also strongly support him——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I would like to remaind the Senator that this is a matter for the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.
We will be waiting. I raised a matter with the Committee on Procedure and Privileges about three years ago, a matter in which I believe a Minister misled the House and I am still waiting for them to meet on that. We could be waiting another three or four years before they bother themselves with the Broadcasting Act.
I would like to ask the Leader of the House four questions. The first is, when are we going to have the Bill that deals with ministerial and other pensions being payable to sitting TDs. It is on the Order Paper. When will we have it? Will its provisions extend to the Seanad and, if not, why? Second, I would like to ask when, not if, we will have a debate on Northern Ireland. I share the concern of other Senators at the various outrages. I would like the opportunity, during that debate, to congratulate the IRA on their extraordinary courage and heroism in using a child's toy in their latest offence. We ought to have this debate. It is important that we express our outrage.
When we are going to have a debate on the banking system. This debate was asked for by Senators on all sides of the House. We appear to be about to suffer in the New Year the withdrawal of even the meagre, inefficient parsimonious, services the banking system already supply. Finally I would like to serve notice that, starting in the New Year, every day, I will oppose the Order of Business so that we can take the item that deals with the response to the European Court case in my favour because I have yet to receive any form of satisfactory answer from the Government. It will be my intention, regrettably, to disrupt the Order of Business every single day until we get a reply.
I, too, would like to support the call for a debate on the banking industry. Like Senator Mooney, I have just received a bill for credit charges; and they are very expensive. Every time I write a cheque I am charged 33p; they really rub it in. I would also like to support Senator Norris' comments on the Bill dealing with ministerial pensions. I trust that the provisions of that Bill will apply to Members of this House as well as the lower House because, if it does not, I cannot see it being passed by this House.
I, too, would like to add my voice to the call for a full debate on employment, without any strings, unemployment is the problem underlying many of our difficulties. I would also like to support Senator Lydon's on the call for a debate on banking charges which are astronomical at the moment. People do not realise how much they are being charged by the banks and they just pay up.
On a point of order, everyone knows that the Department of Finance vetoed this debate in this House.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Hourigan, a question to the Leader of the House.
I ask the Leader, again, if we could have a debate on employment, without any strings attached, as soon as possible, and at an appropriate stage, a debate on banking and all its related aspects.
I refer to the questions from Senator Manning and Senator Upton with regard to further time on the Criminal Damage Bill. I agree with Senator Manning that it may well conclude by 9.30 p.m. but if need be, I am prepared to provide an extra hour or hour and a half to conclude it. However, I think it will conclude by 9.30 p.m. I hope Senator Upton is satisfied with that.
Senators Upton, O'Toole and others asked for a debate on Bord na Móna — obviously not before Christmas. This is something we will consider in the New Year. I have noted what Senator Lanigan said.
Senator Brendan Ryan mentioned the Estimates and unemployment. He and other Senators referred to unemployment and job creation generally. I have made the point in the past that this can be debated on the Appropriation Bill. I would not like Senator Brendan Ryan to think I do not consider it sufficiently important for a debate on its own, and perhaps we can organise it in the New Year. I have noted what Senator McKenna said regarding the Department of Justice and Senator Hartes suggestion for a more positive approach to a debate on job creation. I am sure that will find agreement with the House. I will try to do something about it in the New Year.
Senator Farrell asked for a debate on alcohol abuse; this too, I will consider in the New Year. I will convey Senator Keogh's comments to the Minister for Foreign Affairs. I, too, will support the call for a truce for the Christmas period. We would welcome all this. I have consistently said that talks will start in the New Year and we all hope that will happen. Senator Mooney has been in touch with me by letter on the subject he mentioned and I intend to raise the matter at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I have noted what Senator Doyle said.
Senator Norris' comments surprised me because he suggested I should tell him and the House what is in the Bill relating to ministerial pensions. Senator Norris has had the Bill for the last week. Every Senator in this House knows what is and what is not in it.
Members of Senator Fallon's own party did not know.
Of course they do.
Why did they support me?
There was also a request for a debate on the banking system which I will consider in the New Year. I do not agree with the Senator Manning's final comment about a veto from the Department of Finance on that matter.
The banks are saying they scuppered the debate.
Efforts are ongoing with the Department of Finance to have a debate on banking and I will pursue that as far as I can. Senator Lydon referred to the Bill on ministerial pensions. I know that he knows what is and what is not in it. He has told me so in no uncertain terms. Senator Hourigan referred to banking, unemployment and job creation. I will investigate those matters in the New Year.
Order of Business agreed to.