It is proposed to take the Labour Party Private Members' motion dealing with the Programme for Economic and Social Progress from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. I am proposing a sos from now until 6.30 p.m.
Order of Business.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Is that agreed?
No, it is not.
On the Order of Business, I want to raise a number of issues. First, I want to put on the record the total abhorrence of my group, and I am sure the entire House, at the massacre last week in Northern Ireland and the appalling pass things have come to, the political vacuum, the failure to get talks going and the sheer hypocrisy of Sinn Féin and the IRA. It is almost impossible to describe the depth of the revulsion and the sense of hopelessness we feel in face of what is happening. I want to express, once again, a hope that political dialogue can commence in Northern Ireland and that all those who can will shun Sinn Féin, make them an unwanted organisation and expose the hypocrisy behind which they masquerade. I had intended asking the Leader of the House to have an immediate debate on Northern Ireland but because of other events it did not prove possible. There are no talks that can be stopped and it is past time when Members of this House should be granted and opportunity to have their say about what is happening in Northern Ireland.
Secondly, I should like to move an amendment to the Order of Business to include the motion in my name and that of other Fine Gael Members which was criculated at the beginning of today's business; it is not on the Order Paper but it has been circulated.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
On a point of order, I cannot take that amendment as it is not on today's Order Paper or on the Supplementary Order Paper.
I should like to reiterate my disapointment that, having been summoned to meet in Seanad Éieann to discuss a firm agenda, we were distracted into discussing events which had nothing to do with this House, except to note the resignation of the Cathaoirleach. There are many other items that claim our immediate attention, as has already been indicated by Senators McGowan, Hederman and others.
I hope we will get an opportunity soon to discuss item No. 22 on the Supplementary Order Paper, which draws attention to a scandal which may well rank as the greatest of all scandals — and I know that the field is a severely competitive one. I am talking about the injustice which has been suffered by Nicky Kelly and which is admitted now on virtually all sides except where it really matters, and redress for which may be coming from outside bodies which may shame us into addressing this injustice.
I support Senator Manning's request for an urgent debate on Northern Ireland. On the appalling atrocity he said that words fail us, and so they do, but in respect of shunning Sinn Féin I do not really agree with that because I believe that one should not adopt such a cosy attitude in matters of public debate. Rather we should examine to what extent our own attitudes to Northern Ireland, unification and so on, lend them aid and counsel. In either case, we need an urgent debate on Northern Ireland, which would be one of the most practical ways to express our sympathy.
I was very pleased to hear Senator Manning raise the subject of the appalling atrocity that occurred last Friday. With all that has been happening politically down here, it is important that we do not lose sight of the need to begin talks on the appalling situation in Northern Ireland and to find a political solution. It is essential to put on the record the abhorrence of Senators from all sides of last weeks atrocity. I was pleased to hear Senator Manning and Senator Murphy say that. It keeps things in context when one realises that nearly every day people in Northern Ireland are being butchered.
I join other speakers in expressing my abhorrence and disgust at the appalling events which took place in Northern Ireland in the past few days. I also join other speakers who requested the Leader of the House to reconsider his attitude to have a debate on Northern Ireland. In view of the present circumstances, I believe that it is well worth trying.
I have noted the Chair's ruling on Senator Manning's motion. For that reason, I am not going to make a similar proposal in relation to an almost identical motion in the names of my Labour Party colleagues and myself. However, under Standing Order 123, I propose that the motion in the name of the four Labour Party Senartors "That this House has no confidence in the Taoiseach", be taken this evening. In other words, Standing Orders should be suspended.
From reading Standing Order 123 (2) I understand this is a matter on which you have the discretion to use your judgment, and I sincerely hope you allow this vital matter to be debated this evening. The country is talking about this central issue. Despite the fact that we have important items on the agenda I hope you will use your discretion and allow the House to just consider the question at this stage the question of whether the item should be debated. I hope you will be able to accede to that request. For my part, I hope the House will go along with this urgent item and allow the debate to take place.
I join other speakers in asking the Leader of the House to give time for an urgent debate on Northern Ireland. On at least five previous occasions I and other Members have requested such a debate. If the Leader of the House were to continue to ignore requests from all sides of the House for a debate on Northern Ireland he could be misunderstood. Regardless of what forums we have for debating the problems in the North, it is only proper that the Leader of this House respect the wishes of Members which have been expressed very clearly and that we have an opportunity to express our strong views. If workers were being slaughtered nearer Dublin I am sure the matter would be dealt with with greater urgency.
It is time reasonable honest thinking people stood up and clearly stated at every opportunity that we abhor and oppose anybody who murders innocent workers in the name of Irish people. This House must be given an opportunity to discuss the issue and to give its verdict on those who continue to slaughter innocent people in the name of the Irish.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
In relation to the point raised by Senator Upton under Standing Order 123, in my opinion this matter satisfies Standing Order 123 (2). Is the motion proposed by Senator Upton opposed?
Yes.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Under the procedure, the proposer and the opposer may make a statement on the matter.
The subject of the resolution now to be considered by the House is being spoken about by practically everybody in this country today. It has occupied the House all afternoon. It is a key question, namely, whether this House has confidence in the Taoiseach. The various conflicts have been well illustrated. The whole matter has been very well teased out and I thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, for giving the House the opportunity to decide whether this motion will be taken this evening.
I am opposing the motion. The matter has been dealt with. I indicated quite clearly that there would be a great deal of latitude on that debate, and I do not propose to add further to what I have already said.
Question put: "That Standing Orders be suspended for today's sitting."
The Seanad divided: Tá, 23; Níl, 30.
Tá
- Cosgrave, Liam.
- Costello, Joe.
- Cullen, Martin.
- Dardis, John.
- Doyle, Avril.
- Harte, John.
- Hourigan, Richard V.
- Howard, Michael.
- Jackman, Mary.
- Kennedy, Patrick.
- Ryan, John.
- Staunton, Myles.
- Keogh, Helen.
- Manning, Maurice.
- Murphy, John A.
- Neville, Daniel.
- Norris, David.
- Ó Foighil, Pól.
- O'Reilly, Joe.
- Raftery, Tom.
- Ross, Shane P.N.
- Ryan, Brendan.
- Upton, Pat.
Níl
- Bennett, Olga.
- Bohan, Eddie.
- Byrne, Hugh.
- Byrne, Sean.
- Conroy, Richard.
- Fallon, Sean.
- Farrell, Willie.
- Finneran, Michael.
- Fitzgerald, Tom.
- Foley, Denis.
- Hanafin, Des.
- Haughey, Seán F.
- Honan, Tras.
- Hussey, Thomas.
- Kiely, Dan.
- Kiely, Rory.
- Lanigan, Michael.
- Lydon, Don.
- McCarthy, Seán.
- McGowan, Paddy.
- McKenna, Tony.
- Mooney, Paschal.
- Mullooly, Brian.
- O'Brien, Francis.
- Ó Cuív, Éamon.
- O'Donovan, Denis A.
- O'Keeffe, Batt.
- Ormonde, Donal.
- Ryan, Eoin David.
- Wright, G.V.
Tellers: Tá, Senators Upton and Costello; Níl, Senators Wright and Fitzgerald.
Question declared lost.