At the outset I join with our party leader in the Seanad, Senator Manning, in unequivocally condemning the outrage in Tyrone last week. As a person from a Border area I think it is appropriate that I do that, and I do not——
Order of Business (Resumed).
I am very sorry to interrupt my colleague but it is purely on a matter of clarification. What exactly is happening?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
We are on the Order of Business (Resumed), I stated that earlier.
I thought the Senator was making a speech. I am sorry.
I do not propose to develop the point except to say it should be condemned absolutely as an attack on working people and as something horrendous. I ask the Leader of the House if he would consider a proposal that would give much credibility to this House in the eyes of the general public, that is, devoting at least one day to a complete debate on unemployment and on strategies to create employment. I appeal to the Leader to make that time available shortly. It would do much to enhance the image of this House throughout the country.
Can the Leader of the House convey to the Minister for Finance my encouragement for what he has achieved in the recent discussions with the unions on the Programme for Economic and Social Progress programme? We all hope that that will be brought to a satisfactory conclusion and that the Programme for Government and the Programme for Economic and Social Progress will be a reality.
The Senator will have to get back into the fold after voting against them a minute ago.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Cullen to continue without interruption.
We all obvously hope that the very valuable work done on that programme will be brought to fruition in the years ahead. Secondly, I wish to join with my colleagues, and in particular Senator Keogh, in condemning the outrageous bombing in Northern Ireland last week. I want to put on the record of this House my view that if the political process in Northern Ireland is not seen to be credible, then the vacuum will be filled and continue to be enhanced by terrorism, and it is up to the constitutional parties in Northern Ireland on all sides to get around the table and start talking. The longer they prevaricate, the stronger will the terrorists grow in that part of our island. That message must go home loud and clear.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question to the Leader of the House.
I would ask the Leader of the House, a Leas-Chathaoirlaigh, if we could have a debate on Northern Ireland as soon as possible?
I second Senator Cullen's request for a debate on Northern Ireland. I think all sections of the House have requested this debate for the last six to eight months and we have been told from time to time that we could exacerbate the situation.
It is difficult to comprehend how the situation could be exacerbated by a debate in the Oireachtas, and in pursuance of this, I would like formally to propose an alteration to the Supplementary Order Paper, that we take Item No. 43, as the first item, which reads:
That Seanad Éireann strongly supports the Government in taking all necessary measures to defeat the clear intention of the so called Provisional IRA to provoke sectarian civil war in the North of Ireland.
I am not going to expand on it because I know I would not be allowed to make a speech but I strongly feel it is important that we have the opportunity to have a debate on this important matter. I say this with particular strength because I am one of two members of the Church of Ireland who are elected to this House. I do not say it in any sectarian fashion but it is notable that the seven victims were of the same persuasion. It is an attempt to provoke sectarian civil war. This House must debate it and debate it as quickly as possible.
I wish to second that.
I join with other Members of the House in condemning absolutely the murder campaign of the IRA and other paramilitary bodies in the North. Eight people were killed in the last paramilitary bombing but it should be said, be it one or 1,000 victims we must condemn each and every one of these atrocities.
There is a degree of prevarication about a certain incident which took place in the south-east in the recent past.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question please to the Leader of the House.
I put it to the Leader of the House, if we are to discuss the bombings in the North of Ireland, that we should equally condemn the robbery which took place in Waterford. People, including members of the staff of the AIB, have said "it was only money". I put it to the Leader of the House that we should have a debate on where the money the paramilitary bodies take in raids in the South goes to; it is used to kill people in the South and in Northern Ireland. The two must be taken together, otherwise we will be wasting our time. A debate should take place to discuss the totality of the atrocities.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator has made his point.
On that issue we should not attribute blame but rather ask ourselves each time we hear somebody praising people who had "a good robbery"——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
The Senator cannot make a speech on this matter. He has asked the Leader of the House a question and I am sure the Leader has taken it on board.
I, too, join with other Senators in condemning the atrocities and ask the Leader of the House now that we have returned to normality if we can have an early debate. I also ask him to request the Minister for Education, Deputy Davern, to reconsider his decision to means test maintenance grants for students of regional technical colleges. We have not begun to discuss the colleges Bills but I would have to say that the students who will be most affected by that decision will not be the students who are well off but rather those who are disadvantaged.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question please to the Leader of the House.
I would go further and suggest rather than reconsidering his decision the Minister should drop the idea of means testing grants for third level students.
We have heard many calls in this House both today and during the last session for a debate on unemployment. In supporting those calls I suggest to the Leader of the House that the most appropriate way of covering that and many other aspects would be to have a full debate on the report of the Review Group on Industrial Policy, the so-called Culliton report. I ask the Leader of the House to make time available to allow the House to consider that report and to say when that debate might take place.
I should also advise the House that the reason we supported the motion to suspend Standing Orders was that we believed there was really no point in deferring the matter.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
That is not a matter for the Order of Business.
I want to support a number of my colleagues. Lest there be any dispute I will formally second Senator's Norris's amendment to the Order of Business.
I have done so already.
Do not fall out about it.
We are in a permanent state of falling out. What I have to say is much more serious. I do not want to make a statement about the atrocities because there are no words left that could express one's view on them. What is clear is that we have reached a strange position in Irish politics where our colleagues north of the Border cannot, apparently, get themselves to talk about their problems while it would appear south of the Border we will not be allowed to talk about their problems.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
A question please to the Leader of the House.
My question is not whether we can have one debate on Northern Ireland but rather whether we can have regular debates about the single most insidious, destructive and cancerous issue afflicting this island. We should not have to ask for a debate. All responsible politicians in this country who claim they are committed to democracy should talk about that issue, from our various perspectives within the democratic framework, on a regular basis. The idea that anything is served by——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I have to ask the Senator to refrain from making a speech. He has asked the Leader of the House a question.
I am trying to explain to the Leader of the House the reason it is important we should have a debate. I am not talking about Northern Ireland, rather I am talking about the business of this House. Perhaps the Leader of the House can explain to me, privately, what is wrong with the idea of democratic politicians discussing a problem. The only people who speak publicly and consistently about these problems——
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
I think the Leader of the House understands the Senator's intention.
He might understand it better when I finish. All I can say is that if we do not speak regularly others outside Parliament, in particular the Provisional IRA, will express only their view of the problem through their methods. We should be as vocal as they are and should be allowed to be as outspoken as they are within the democratic structures. That is the reason we need to discuss that issue, not just once but on a regular ongoing basis.
I wish to support Senator Dardis who stated that he would like to see the Report of the Review Group on Industrial Policy, under the chairmanship of Jim Culliton, form the basis for a debate on unemployment. It would be an ideal vehicle for us to have a wide-ranging debate and I ask the Leader of the House to consider that request as a matter of urgency.
Secondly, in relation to ESF funding, the Leader of the House should make the views of the Members of the Seanad known to the Minister for Education whose unilateral decision will effect those who are already in receipt of funding from Europe on the pretence that equity is being introduced into the system as regards higher education grants. That decision should be opposed as strongly as possible.
In relation to Northern Ireland, may I ask the Leader of the House if he would change his opinion, which he has expressed in this House so often, that we would only exacerbate the situation if we were to have an ongoing debate on Northern Ireland? He has indicated that he will allow a debate but he has expressed the view that it would aggravate the situation. May I give an example to highlight the problem we face?
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
No, we cannot have a debate now. The Senator has put a question to the Leader of the House and I ask him to co-operate.
We should not be unable to discuss current affairs.
While I support the sentiments expressed by Senator Lanigan in relation to the bank robbery which took place in the south-east, I do not think, in the interests of accuracy, that it has actually been established whether paramilitaries or a criminal gang were involved. I hope the matter will be resolved and that those responsible will be brought to justice as soon as possible. The biggest problem we face, both in this House and outside, is that there are still far too many sneaking regarders when it comes to the type of atrocity we have witnessed. It behoves all of us in every party to root them out as well as the criminals and those who perpetrate appalling acts such as the one which occurred last Friday.
May I ask the Leader of the House when we will see the Electoral (No. 2) Bill, 1991, in the Seanad, whether it will be initiated in the Seanad and whether we will have time to debate it thoroughly before the next general election?
A number of Senators asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. The events of last Friday, the callous murder of those seven building workers, strongly indicates to me the depths to which the IRA will go to fuel sectarian hatred in the North. To suggest that because people were working for a building firm they were legitimate targets is ludicrous. They were ordinary working people doing their job, earning a living and providing food and clothing for their families. I support the view that we extend sympathy to the families.
In so far as a debate on Northern Ireland is concerned, I will consider seriously again — and pursue as actively as I can — a debate on Northern Ireland. I know the concern of the Senators and I promise to do so. I was of the view that Senators would want a debate on he events of last Friday and I had planned a debate on that for an hour sometime today. Unfortunately, events have changed so we will not be able to have that now, but perhaps we will sometime in the future.
Senator O'Reilly, Senator Dardis and others asked about a debate on unemployment and the way forward is as I have indicated — Item No. 9 on the Order Paper. On receipt of the Culliton report I placed it on the Order Paper and I would like to think that we will get a chance of debating the matter as soon as possible.
Senator Cullen referred to the Programme for Economic and Social Progress. As he knows, there is a debate tonight on that matter. Senator Norris asked about Item 43. I have no plans to take that as a specific item but it would be ideal for a Private Member's motion and he might pursue that area.
Senator Jackman and others referred to means testing ESF grants. I will certainly bring the concern of Senators to the attention of the Minister for Education. Senator Costello also mentioned that matter. Senator Doyle referred to the Electoral (No. 2) Bill, 1991, and I am confident that will be taken in this House as quickly as possible.
Before the general election?
Before the general election.
An Leas-Chathaoirleach
Senator Norris has moved an amendment to the Order of Business,. "That Item No. 77, motion 43, be inserted after Item No. 17, motion 41". Is the amendment being pressed?
In the light of the Leader stating that he will be considering a debate on Northern Ireland, it would be obstructive to push it to a vote so I do not propose to do so. I withdraw my amendment to the Order of Business.
Order of Business agreed to.
Sitting suspended at 6.15 p.m. and resumed at 6.30 p.m.