We will take Item No. 1 from 2.30 p.m. to 6p.m.; there will be a sos from 6 p.m. to 6.30 p.m. and we will take motion 47 from 6.30 p.m. to 8 p.m. May I say to the House that it is my intention, with the agreement of the Whips, that tomorrow we will have statements immediately after the Order of Business on Article 43.3 of the Constitution.
Order of Business.
On the Order of Business, I do not have to express to you or to the House the depth of concern, anger, frustration and puzzlement which exists in the community on matters arising out of Article 43 of the Constitution. I believe since the process has now begun whereby the party leaders are individually speaking with the Taoiseach this afternoon that we should agree with the Acting Leader's proposal and not do anything which might impede that process. Personally, I do not feel particularly hopeful that anything positive will emerge, but at least the process must be given a chance and I agree that we will have statements on the matter tomorrow morning. I am asking the Acting Leader of the House to be as liberal as possible in the arrangements which can be made so that speakers who have a point of view are given a chance to put that point of view tomorrow morning.
Secondly, on the Order of Business, some time ago during the course of the RTE strike I asked the Acting Leader of the House if when the strike ended it would be possible at some date — and I am not asking for it immediately — over the next couple of weeks to have a debate on the future of broadcasting policy. I believe there is a changed situation and we should take the lead in this House in saying what way things should go forward.
I, too, want to echo the sentiments expressed by Senator Manning in relation to this truly terrible situation which has arisen in the case of the 14 year old rape victim and to say I am prepared to agree to the Acting Leader's suggestion that we have a debate tomorrow. It is desirable that we listen to what comes out of the meeting between the party leaders this afternoon and that we have our deliberations tomorrow in the context of what is agreed, or indeed what is not agreed.
Secondly, I, too, would be in support of a debate on broadcasting policy. May I remind the House that recently in Private Members' time the Labour Party tabled a motion which provided such an opportunity for the House. I would be pleased to have a repeat of that debate.
I welcome what the Acting Leader of the House has said with regard to having a debate tomorrow. I will certainly support that. As you know, I tried to raise this issue on the Order of Business last week but you ruled me out of order. It is interesting that, although I spoke early on the Order of Business, nobody followed on that——
We are having discussions on it tomorrow so I think it would be perhaps appropriate for you to wait until then for your contribution.
Yes, but may I make one point with regard to the kind of debate the Acting Leader has indicated for tomorrow? It is a very important point which needs to be made very loudly with regard to the kind of debate he is affording us. I was in the Dáil yesterday. The only people who spoke were men. Women attempted to speak and were ruled out of order. It would be catastrophic if women were not permitted in either House of the Oireachtas——
What went on in the other House, Senator Norris, is a matter for the other House, as you know.
In that case, a Chathaoirligh, I accept your ruling that I should not criticise the other House in this forum, although I certainly will do so outside. May I welcome the fact that the Seanad is providing the first opportunity — this is the way I understand it and I commend the Acting Leader for making this possible — in which the voice of women will be heard. I hope this will be recognised in the order of speakers and in the extent of the contribution allowed to women. I look forward to listening tomorrow to their contributions in this senior House of the Oireachtas.
You have made your point.
Like my colleagues, I go along with the proposal made by the Acting Leader of the House. We all agree it is very reasonable. May I say I am happy that so far there has been an attempt to deal with this crisis on an all-party basis. I hope the same strategy will apply to other matters. As regards the debate tomorrow, it is not clear to me whether it is going to be a debate as such or statements from Members. If it is to consist of statements from Senators, difficulties may arise in attempting to limit the number of statements to a certain number of Members per group.
I am sure the Whips will agree on procedures.
Very well. I would also like to question the approach of Senator Norris in this clamorous insistence that one particular sex has a superior wisdom in this matter.
Again, I suggest that is not appropriate to the Order of Business.
I simply suggest that this in itself is a sexist line from my colleague.
Finally, with reference to a promise made last week on the Order of Business by the Acting Leader of the House that we were to look forward to a visit from the Taoiseach, I would like to know how that situation stands now.
I am glad that, as a woman, I am able to speak for myself. I hope we do not need to be defended by other colleagues. May I say how pleased I am the Acting Leader has stated we should have either statements or debate in relation to this appalling tragedy? With other colleagues here, I agree we should have an all-party consensus approach and that we do not take the opportunity to spark off each other in any kind of political debate. This is a tragic circumstance and we need to keep that in mind.
I would like to support what has been said by Senator Keogh about a consensus approach. That would be very valuable. I always think that if other political matters were dealt with in that way the country would be in a far better state. I look forward to that happening tomorrow.
The Acting Leader may remember that last year I consistently brought up the question of bringing forward the Local Government Reform Bill so that there would be time to debate it in this House. It came forward at a stage when there was a rush to hold the elections and the Bill was guillotined. In that connection, what is the proposal with regard to the legislation which is necessary for the setting up of the regional authorities? We were promised in the revised Programme for Government that they would be set up at the end of March and that the district council elections would be in June. Could we have some indication of what is proposed so that we can ensure we will not have the same situation as occurred in regard to the Local Government Bill, where the whole thing was rushed through with unseemly haste, where there was no opportunity to debate, where there was the guillotine?
On the question of the recent High Court decision, this matter should be approached in a sensitive fashion. I am glad the Acting Leader has commented that there will be some debate tomorrow on the matter. However, it is a constitutional issue, enshrined in our Constitution as a result of the referendum in 1983. There should be caution in this whole debate because it may end up in the Supreme Court, which is the guardian of our Constitution. Certainly, this matter should not be politicised and I am glad that the leaders of the other parties are agreeable to consultation on this matter.
I also welcome the approach the Acting Leader has indicated to us: the opportunity of making statements after the political leaders have met so we can approach it to a large degree in the same vein and with the same attitude that has been adopted. I think the matter has enormous implications for women. We should be worried about the possibility of a witch hunt. In the context of the constitutional review, it may be that some good will come from this by adopting an approach whereby we will seek to deal with it on an all-party basis. This might be the time for a review of the Constitution. We have not had one for a quarter of century.
May I refer the Acting Leader to Motion 46 in relation to Nicky Kelly and his co-defendants and ask him if he would speak to the Attorney General, who has been extremely tardy in coming back to this House. The Minister for Justice in November told us the matter had gone to the Attorney General for his opinion in relation to recommending to the Minister for Justice and the Cabinet to approach the President seeking a pardon for Nicky Kelly. We are four months waiting and perhaps we might get some indication at this point as to the decision of the Attorney General on that matter. He certainly has not been very hasty in coming back with his reply.
It is a very welcome development when on an urgent issue like this the debate is seen to be initiated on the Government side. The Acting Leader anticipated the views of most of us here and I compliment him on that. I, for one, do not welcome the debate. It is a necessary debate; it is not a welcome debate. We have to deal with an extremely unpleasant but necessary matter. None of us would have wished to experience again what we went through in this House not many years ago, but we have to, and we have to solve this problem once and for all. We must not allow ourselves to be railroaded in a particular direction by anybody ever again. I cannot help observing that it is a pity the Attorney General is not as speedy in some of his decisions, as in the case of Nicky Kelly, when one compares it with the extraordinary haste of his action on the issue we now have to deal with.
I, too, would like to commend the Acting Leader on allowing statements to be made on this matter tomorrow — this horrific decision that is forced upon these two young people, one 14 years of age, I understand, and the other I believe to be 11 weeks old.
In view of the fact that statistics were published yesterday which show that 97 Irish people have now died from AIDS and 256 adults have full blown AIDS, may I ask the Acting Leader of the House if he would make inquiries in relation to the new Family Planning Bill and when it may be brought to this House and to the Oireachtas? It is a matter of extreme urgency.
I thank the House and the leaders of the various parties for agreeing to tomorrow's statements on Article 43.3 of the Constitution. After the Order of Business today perhaps the Whips would meet on the matter. I hope we will be as accommodating as possible in regard to the number of people who may wish to speak on this issue tomorrow. That is my intention. As to who speaks on the statements, that would obviously be a party decision. We will be as flexible as possible in regard to the number of those who make statements.
I have already agreed to a debate on broadcasting and, again subject to the Whips, in a couple of weeks time we hope to have a debate on the future policy on broadcasting.
In regard to the visit of the Taoiseach to the Seanad, obviously this week has been a difficult one for Government with various meetings taking place, but the commitment was reaffirmed this morning and I hope I will be able to have news of that for next week or the week after. There is a definite commitment for the Taoiseach to be in the House to discuss the formation of the new Government.
I will make contact with the Minister for the Environment on the matter of the Local Government Bill to see when he intends to bring forward the various reforms outlined in the Programme for Government. I will talk to Senator Hederman about that.
Motion 46 is obviously a matter for a Private Members' motion. In regard to the last item Senator Haughey mentioned, certainly I will make contact with the Minister for Health on that. I heard the Taoiseach this morning on the Order of Business in the Dáil suggest that very shortly we would have a family Bill in the House.
Order of Business agreed to.