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Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Nov 1993

Vol. 138 No. 2

Irish Aviation Authority Bill, 1993: Second Stage.

Question proposed: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

A Chathaoirligh, a chomh-Sheanadóirí agus a dhaoine uaisle, is cúis áthais dom teacht in bhur measc ar an ócáid seo agus an Bille an-tábhachtach seo á chur faoi bhráid an tSeanaid. Táim ag súil go mbainfidh sibh taithneamh as an díospóireacht agus go gcuirfimid acht an-tábhachtach in áit.

The principal purpose of this Bill is to provide for the establishment of a new State owned company called the Irish Aviation Authority. The Bill will transform the Air Navigation Services Office of our Department, ANSO as it is known, from a Civil Service agency to a commercial semi-State body. Through the Air Navigation Services Office, the Minister discharges his responsibility for regulating Irish aviation safety standards and for controlling Irish airspace. This Bill is designed to ensure that the vital services which ANSO provides to aviation are enhanced by giving the new authority the capacity to meet the aviation industry's need for high quality, cost effective services.

This new authority, subject to the general constraints on semi-State bodies, will have the flexibility and autonomy in operational, staffing and investment matters to meet the needs of its many users. In a wider European context, the creation of the Irish Aviation Authority is part of an evolutionary process that aviation is currently going through at both national and international levels. Like Ireland, many European administrations are now reassigning their air traffic control and airspace management organisations to more autonomous bodies as part of a broader strategy to resolve European air traffic congestion problems.

Irish aviation is going through fairly severe turbulence at present. The need to contain costs, to maximise revenues, to maintain safety standards and to meet the requirements of the market place inevitably produces strain. In this respect, we are not unique as the aviation industry throughout the world is also going through testing times. The parliamentary debate on this Bill will, I hope, help to inform, broaden and enlighten the present public debate on the Irish aviation industry.

Although having a relatively low public profile, ANSO is central to the aviation industry in Ireland and it also plays a significant role in international aviation. I trust the House will bear with me if I take the opportunity briefly and broadly to sketch the background against which this Bill has been framed and set out the thinking which underlies the provisions of the Bill.

Currently ANSO employs nearly 600 staff who are mainly located at our State airports. ANSO staff comprise air traffic controllers, electronic engineers, radio officers, flight operations and airworthiness experts, together with a small number of administrative staff.

The day-to-day functions of ANSO involve highly complex and technical work. We can see the results of this work in the number of aircraft using our airspace. We can also see it in the safety record of the Irish aviation industry. In such specialised work, ANSO operates to the highest international standards, as required by the Minister. I am sure the House will appreciate that such technical work does not require the direct personal intervention of the Minister.

For two decades or so the general trend of Government administration has been to separate policy and executive functions. Thereby, Government can concentrate on making and shaping policy. The corollary of this is that the executive bodies can concentrate on their specific functions which are, of course, conducted in accordance with policy, as defined by Government.

ANSO is an example of the type of executive organisation which would benefit from the flexibility of semi-State body status. ANSO, by definition, must have the capacity to focus rapidly on and effectively serve the needs of the aviation industry. Rapid and effective reaction to market needs is not a notable quality of Civil Service administrative or operating systems.

ANSO's customers or users, as they are usually described, are mainly the world's commercial airlines who demand and are entitled to quality services at competitive costs. That is what the Irish Aviation Authority, operating as a fully commercial body, is designed to give them. ANSO has performed exceptionally well over the past few years. Irish safety standards are internationally accepted as being of the highest order, as is the manner in which we manage and operate our airspace.

As I mentioned earlier, world aviation is in turmoil at present. Order books for new aircraft are being shortened and this reflects the gigantic losses being incurred by some of the world's major airlines. Looked at from a world perspective, it would be easy to be dismayed and pessimistic about the future of the aviation industry.

However, pessimism about aviation would be misplaced as there is another side to the coin. Since the last war aviation has gone through a regular series of booms and slumps. The notable feature of these cycles is the underlying long run growth trends in air traffic, passengers and freight.

Our job as legislators must be to create the conditions and structures from which we can meet our air transport needs and exploit the opportunities which the world air transport industry can offer. The creation of the new Irish Aviation Authority is part of our strategy. It will keep Ireland to the forefront in vital services, such as the regulation of safety standards and in air traffic control. Moreover, we are giving the authority the capability to engage in associated activities, such as training and consultancy work. These are the growth areas where there are opportunities for profit, especially in the emerging markets in Asia and eastern Europe.

However, I must emphasise that the principal reason for setting up the new authority is not to make profits, but to improve the efficiency of services to the aviation industry in a dynamic and rapidly changing environment. ANSO has two main businesses — the regulation of aviation safety standards and the operation of air navigation services. In 1992 total ANSO turnover on a commercial basis amounted to more than £40 million, of which more than 80 per cent came from foreign airlines, many of which never touch down on Irish soil.

Safety and public confidence in safety standards is the bedrock on which international civil aviation is based. Our Government is conscious of public concern about safety and I emphasise there is no question of safety standards being in any way compromised for commercial reasons. Irish aviation safety standards are based on the highest international and European standards as set down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation and the European Joint Aviation Authorities.

Irish safety standards are applied to and cover the 500 aircraft on our national register, 2,000 licensed pilots, 3,000 certified aircraft maintenance personnel, a dozen aircraft operating companies and some 75 maintenance organisations. Of the 500 aircraft on the register, more than 110 are large public transport aircraft. Approximately half of this fleet comprises GPA aircraft, most of which operate in countries spread across the globe from South America to Asia.

Concern has been expressed at the fact that we are combining both regulatory and operational functions in a single authority. Both I and the Government recognise that these are real concerns which cannot be lightly dismissed. A strong regulatory environment is a key requirement in developing the aviation industry in Ireland. The prospects for companies such as GPA and TEAM Aer Lingus are directly dependent on having a strong regulatory environment. The prospects for those firms would be immeasurably poorer if there was an inadequate regulatory environment or one which could not react quickly to the changes in the market. Without question, to combine regulatory and operational functions in one organisation is not always the desirable solution. The fact that there is a relatively small area of overlap between both functions does not override the principle that both functions should where practicable be separately discharged. However, we have to ask, are there practicable alternatives?

There are three possible alternatives to combining both functions in one single organisation. The alternatives would be either to create two separate organisations, to leave the regulatory functions with the Minister or to combine that regulatory function with some other separate existing organisation.

We have ruled out the question of combining the regulatory function with another organisation. We did so on the grounds that the Minister for Transport must always remain directly responsible for public safety policy and standards. To put the regulatory function in another organisation, at the very least, would have obscured that direct line of ministerial control and public accountability which we feel is absolutely essential.

The question of setting up the regulatory function in a separate organisation such as occurs in many larger countries was also considered but discarded. It is very doubtful that, in Ireland, a separate organisation for the regulatory function would be either large enough or strong enough to carry out an effective regulatory role. We do not have the densities of pilots, aircraft, manufacturing industry or traffic which our larger neighbours have. The probability therefore is that the regulatory function as a separate organisation would have to be guaranteed if not funded by the taxpayers. Funding of the regulatory function by the taxpayer would be neither fair nor justified.

Finally, there was the possibility of the regulatory function being retained by the Minister. There is much to commend this approach. However, operating within Civil Service structures and strictures, we have over the years found it very difficult to recruit and retain highly skilled regulatory experts. Thus we finally came to the conclusion that, however desirable, keeping the regulatory function in our Department was not a viable proposition. Having carefully come to these conclusions, we were left with no option but to combine both the regulatory and operational and regulatory functions. We have of course seen that this will require special measures to ensure that conflicts of interest between the operational and regulatory functions will be minimised.

Due to the importance which Government attaches to the whole issue of the regulatory and operational functions and indeed to safety matters generally, we have made a number of unique provisions in this Bill. The most important of these is set out in section 32. This section provides that within three years of being established, the new authority will submit a report on the safety standards which it has implemented. The Minister for Transport will have those standards audited by outside independent experts and will repeat this exercise at least every three years.

I need hardly tell the House that in the unlikely event of an audit report on the authority's safety standards being less than favourable, the Minister has the power to direct any necessary improvement. As far as we know, this statutory requirement to report on safety standards and have them independently audited is unique. No other comparable organisation has such requirements. We are satisfied that this requirement — which is desirable anyway — will also allay any concerns which there may be about conflicts of interest between that authority's operational and regulatory functions.

Another unique provision included is in section 36. In establishing the new authority, we are very anxious that it should have a fully commercial character reflecting the ethos of the industry in which it operates. However, we have to also recognise that the authority has very important safety functions and responsibilities. Safety, in our view, must never be jeopardised for purely commercial reasons.

Section 36 provides that the board of the new authority, before making decisions on safety matters, must obtain and consider the opinion of its expert staff expressed through the chief executive officer. In the unlikely event that a decision by the board would, in the opinion of the chief executive officer, contravene technical or safety standards, the board must refrain from implementing its decision until the Minister is consulted and decides on the issue. Senators will see that section 36 provides very clear and precise procedures to handle what undoubtedly may be a difficult situation. The fact that we have set out these procedures and included them in this Bill is a measure of our commitment to ensuring that safety standards are upheld and that, in the final analysis, the Minister decides on both the policy and the standards.

I can assure the House that we are determined to ensure that the highest safety standards will continue to be applied in Irish aviation. That commitment is necessary both for our own travelling public and for those who travel in aircraft that are maintained or operated by Irish companies or who travel through Irish airspace. I must mention the fact that the Minister will retain responsibility for accident investigation. This is especially important as it could well be that either the regulatory or operational sides of the authority or both might be implicated in the causes of the accident. It would in those circumstances be entirely unacceptable for the authority to conduct investigation into such accidents.

In this connection, I also mention sections 33 and 34 which, though not safety related, are nevertheless provisions that merit attention. These provisions set out very clear guidelines in relation to conflicts of interest for both staff and board members. Persons found in contravention of these sections will be guilty of an offence for which severe penalties are provided.

There are some other unique features in relation to this new semi-State body which I should also mention. I am referring particularly to the powers which the authority will have to make secondary legislation and to prosecute offences. These powers are quite unique for a commercial semi-State body. The grant of these powers to the authority shows the Government's intention that the authority will have all the tools which it needs to do its work.

At this stage I want to turn to the commercial focus of the new authority. The biggest segment of business for ANSO, as it will be for the new authority, is the provision of air navigation and aeronautical communications services. In 1992, these services accounted for turnover of nearly £37 million. These revenues of £37 million account for more than 90 per cent of ANSO revenues. Broadly the services which ANSO provides include the control of Irish airspace and the provisions of communications links between aircraft in international airspace on the north Atlantic and air traffic control in Prestwick, Scotland.

The north Atlantic communications service is provided from the aeronautical communications station at Ballygirreen, County Clare where there are more than 100 staff employed who are mainly radio officers. That station had revenues of over £7 million in 1992 from charges of £36 levied on each aircraft using our system.

Closer to home within the boundaries of Irish airspace the basic air navigation service figures are quite simple. Irish controlled airspace covers more than 100,000 square miles — three times our land surface area — and stretches out to a distance of some 200 miles around our coasts. Irish airspace occupies an important strategic position on the north Atlantic air routes. Almost 80 per cent of the traffic between the US and Europe crosses Irish airspace.

The air navigation services provided by ANSO and which will be provided by the new authority after vesting day are provided on a cost-recovery basis. The charges for services are determined in accordance with principles set down by the international civil aviation organisation. These principles require that charges be assessed on a cost-recovery basis only. They allow for the remuneration of the necessary capital but do not permit aviation authorities to set their prices so as to make profits.

Shannon is the principal centre in Ireland for the control of air traffic entering or exiting from the north Atlantic air routes. The importance of the Shannon centre is internationally recognised in that under its control transatlantic flights make the transition from continental European airways systems to and from the north Atlantic oceanic track systems. Shannon is also responsible for handling much of the domestic traffic from Cork and the regional airports. The Dublin air traffic centre controls Irish air traffic to and from Britain and the Continent. As I said earlier, aircraft which use our airspace and air navigation facilities must pay for the costs that we incur in providing these vital services.

Each of our air traffic control centres is fully equipped with the most modern radar and communications technology which enables us to handle both current and projected traffic levels. In 1992 there were more than 300,000 aircraft movements through Irish controlled airspace. Of these, slightly more than 120,000 landed at or took off from Irish airports. The importance of Irish airspace is shown by the fact that there were approximately 200,000 aircraft movements which were en route between the US and Europe and which neither landed nor took off in Ireland. All of these flights are charged for the use of Irish airspace facilities. In 1992 they accounted for nearly £30 million of ANSO revenues, not to mention the 200 jobs which they provide in the Shannon area. The charges which we levy are calculated on a complex formula involving the weight of the aircraft and the distance flown. Taking these employment and revenue figures for Shannon with those for Ballygirreen, we have over 300 jobs in the Clare/Limerick area. These figures underline that our airspace is a valuable national asset.

At one time or another, all of the major world airlines use our airspace on transatlantic crossings. It will give the House an indication of the nature of the business when I tell Senators that in 1992 Aer Lingus came fifth among the top ten users of our airspace. A less happy statistic is the fact that of our top ten airspace user airlines, only one made a profit in 1992. I mention the latter point because we are modestly proud of the fact that our charges on aircraft using our en route airspace services are the third lowest in the 16 nation European route charging system operated by Eurocontrol, the European air traffic control agency.

The economic and cost effective rates being charged to users by ANSO will, we hope, ensure that we will retain and expand our current traffic levels. Certainly this will be an objective of the Irish Aviation Authority. How and where will the Aviation Authority fit into the context of the aviation industry in Ireland? The new Aviation Authority will control the airspace and regulate safety standards. The airports at which aircraft land and take off are operated by Aer Rianta in the case of the State airports; the regional airports are privately owned. Aer Lingus and various other companies operate airlines. Firms such as TEAM Aer Lingus provide aircraft maintenance and overhaul services. The airports, airlines and the aircraft maintenance firms all operate to technical safety standards currently set by ANSO and, in future, to be set by the new authority.

Against the background of the problems of Aer Lingus and GPA, the House might feel that this is not the most auspicious time for new ventures. I disagree. There are problems in the aviation industry and these are being tackled and must be resolved with considered, practical policies.

As Minister, my aim is and must be to ensure that aviation is a safe, cost competitive and commercially viable industry which will grow and develop thus contributing to our overall goals of wealth generation and job creation. The creation of the new Irish Aviation Authority is a firm plank in the strategy of the evolutionary process in the aviation industry. To summarise, our policy in relation to the services which are currently being provided by ANSO is to ensure the safety of aviation in the public interest and in compliance with our international obligations, to facilitate access to Ireland by air and to maximise the financial and employment benefits to our country.

Turning now to the general structure of the Bill, I propose to outline the general approach which we took to the task of setting up the new authority. We started from the standpoint that what was required was a commercial semi-State body to which could be transferred the Minister's rights, powers and authority relevant to air navigation and safety services. The latter functions are set out in the Air Navigation and Transport Acts and the Eurocontrol Acts. The commercial semi-State body model which we have used is broadly on the same lines as other bodies established in recent years. Thus the Irish Aviation Authority will be a limited company established under the Companies Acts and having a nine person board to be appointed by the Minister.

The company will operate in accordance with approved memorandum and articles of association. At this stage, although no final decision has been taken, it is expected that January 1 next will be set as the vesting day when the new authority will officially commence operations. The directors and staff of the new company and its subsidiaries will be subject to general controls in relation to such matters as conflicts of interest and disclosure of confidential information. The provisions in relation to disclosure of interests are in line with the code of practice for semi-State bodies issued last year by the Minister for Finance.

Under the Bill the company will be empowered to invest in associated companies or to establish subsidiaries. As is normal practice in semi-State bodies, the authority will be required to furnish the Minister with copies of its annual report and accounts. The appointment of the company's auditor will be subject to the approval of the Minister with the consent of the Minister for Finance.

The airline industry, which is the authority's main customer, is extremely cost conscious. As I mentioned, most of the authority's main customers have been losing money. It is important, therefore, that the airlines as well as the Government should have a clear picture of the cost and financing of air navigation and safety. As part of the strategy for the future, ANSO management will continue to build on the good relations with its users. In this connection it is intended that regular and constructive consultation with the users will be a feature of the business approach to be adopted by the Irish Aviation Authority.

The capital of the new authority will correspond to the assets which the company takes over and these, mainly equipment and current assets, will amount to a value of some £30 million. These assets will be funded by a mixture of debt and equity. The proportions of share capital and debt finance will be determined between the Minister for Transport and the Minister for Finance and these proportions will be settled closer to vesting day. One thing which I should make clear is that setting up the new authority will not require new investment by the Exchequer.

The Bill also provides that the land and buildings used by ANSO may be either transferred or leased to the Authority. I expect that leasing will generally be the more appropriate arrangement. There is no reason to fragment the ownership of the State airports, for example, by transferring the air traffic control centres to the new authority as the remainder of the airports will still be the property of the Minister. The new authority will operate as a going concern from vesting day. It will collect and pay to the Minister any sums due for services provided by ANSO before vesting day and these arrangements are covered in the transitional provisions.

The new authority will be able to fund future capital acquisitions from its charges. A borrowing capacity of £100 million for both working capital and long term capital purposes is being provided, subject to the usual conditions. Of this borrowing capacity of £100 million, up to £80 million will be open to being guaranteed by the Minister for Finance. It has been said that the borrowing and guarantee limits are unduly large and might expose the Exchequer unnecessarily. These are always matters for judgment and some crystal ball gazing.

At present we are on the threshold of a new era in air navigation services. Within the next decade, satellites, synthetic radar and advanced computing techniques will revolutionise airspace and air traffic management. It is foreseen too that new organisational, institutional and financing arrangements may be subsequently necessary. At this stage it is premature to predict what the impact of these technologies and systems will have for the authority. One thing, however, is certain: the new authority must be prepared to meet the many challenges that lie ahead. At present the projected capital expenditure for the authority to the end of the decade is estimated at £60 million. This will let us maintain and gradually update our systems. However, we need to be ready for more than just a "steady as she goes" situation.

The advent of the jet aircraft over a very short space of time, in the late 1950s and early 1960s, revolutionised air traffic. The new technology I have mentioned may be about to do so again and I can assure the House that we do not intend to be left behind. Thus we have set the capital borrowing limits at levels which will ensure that the authority will be able to meet the challenges that lie ahead.

I should also mention, in relation to the commercial character of the new authority, that the provisions in the Bill are in line with the decisions taken by Government on the reports of the Industrial Policy Review Group, more commonly known as the Culliton and Moriarty reports. ANSO has already done some work on the development of its commercial mission statement and clear international benchmarks are given by the rates the authority will charge for its services. These rates can be readily compared with the unit charges levied by other administrations for air navigation service.

The Bill, in section 45, provides that where the Minister directs the new authority to exempt aircraft, such as search and rescue aircraft, from charges for services, the Minister will pay the costs involved. As the authority, in its role as the regulatory body, will be making orders which have the force of law and because it will be a monopoly provider of services, the Government excluded the possibility of private ownership. If in the future the Government were to decide that any of the core functions of the new authority should be carried out by the private sector the whole question would have to be brought back to the Oireachtas for debate and decision.

I should mention that the Bill has been amended since first being published to provide that any new powers which the Minister might give to it will have to be confirmed by an affirmative decision of the Oireachtas. This is an aspect to which I will return later.

This Bill provides for the transfer of ANSO staff to the new authority. Concerns expressed by the staff in relation to security of tenure in their new employment have been taken into account in the drafting of the Bill and will, I believe, satisfy all sides. Special provision has been made in relation to the Exchequer's accumulated liabilities for staff pensions. The Bill provides in section 41 that the Exchequer will pay to the authority's superannuation fund over a seven year period an amount to discharge the Exchequer's liability. I should add that for many years ANSO users have been directly funding the Exchequer's liabilities to ANSO staff.

Concerns have been expressed that the Exchequer's liabilities to the staff should be discharged more quickly than the seven years provided for in the Bill. I have a lot of sympathy with that approach. It might surprise some people that the Minister for Finance also would like to discharge and dispose of the Exchequer's liabilities as soon as possible. However, we must be practical.

We have taken an initial actuarial evaluation of the Exchequer liability and the figures indicate that it will be of the order of £60 million plus. As the House will appreciate, this is a substantial sum that could not readily be discharged over one or two years. Even over the proposed seven-year period when interest payments are taken into account there will be a need for contributions of the order of between £9 million and £12 million per annum.

I hope that when the Estimates for 1994 are published it will show the commitment by the Exchequer to annual payments in order to discharge the liability. The possibility was raised that the Minister for Finance might defer meeting his liability until the seventh year and then at that stage amend the legislation because the liability had grown so much. That is possible. However, the Minister for Finance cannot escape his financial liabilities. It has also been suggested that until the Minister for Finance makes his contribution there will be no funds to meet the pensions or lump sums of staff who retire in the meantime. This is a fallacy. From the day it commences operations the new authority will be putting aside substantial sums of the order of 20 per cent of the payroll to cover superannuation costs.

Finally, to allay remaining concerns that staff may have, the authority's pension scheme and fund will be subject to the requirements of the Pensions Board. This will ensure the adequacy of the fund to meet existing and potential pension requirements.

The stage is now set for the conclusion of the discussions with the trade unions and staff interests regarding the transfer of ANSO staff to the new aviation authority. A point which perhaps I should make is that the authority will be specifically excluded form the provisions of the worker participation Acts. I have mentioned at length the need to avoid conflicts of interest at an organisational level between the operational and regulatory functions of the new authority. As the House appreciates, it is a complex problem. I would be especially concerned at the conflict of interest for staff members elected to the board and for the board itself which could arise from the different roles of the authority. One could envisage a situation where a member of the operational staff was licensed by the regulatory staff and serving on the board. I am sure that I do not have to go any further to spell out all the potential conflicts of interest involved in such a scenario, with the added complication of casting doubts on safety standards. The position we have adopted is practical not ideological. We have removed from the Bill a prohibition on a ministerial appointment of a staff member to the board. However, I can assure the House that I will be strongly recommending to the new authority that appropriate staff participative arrangements are made at sub-board level.

I have given a wide but brief resumé of the general corporate structure proposed in the Bill. I should now like to mention the quasi-monopoly nature of the authority and the concurrent concern that in the absence of competition it might fail adequately to control its charges. I recognise such concerns and obviously the authority will have to pay attention to them. However, it would be impracticable to have more than one provider of air navigation services or aviation regulatory services.

The new authority may be a monopoly in Ireland. However, it must operate in an international arena, often in competition with similar national authorities. Aviation is an international business and if the new authority's charges are out of line or their services inadequate it will quickly become clear and it would have to rectify the situation immediately.

Other provisions to which I should refer are those at sections 62 and 63. Provision is made in these sections whereby the new authority will under certain conditions represent Ireland in international for a concerned with air navigation services and safety matters. These provisions recognise the essentially international nature of the business in which the new authority will be involved and provide a framework within which the new authority can operate effectively.

Turning to the technical provisions in the Bill I should reiterate that civil aviation as an international business is regulated in accordance with international standards. Worldwide aviation is governed by the Chicago Convention on International Civil Aviation. All states who are party to the Chicago convention adopt a uniform approach to the regulation of aviation safety and as far as practicable provide services and facilities to agreed international standards. The Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1946 as amended by the Air Navigation and Transport Act, 1950 provided for the Chicago convention and its annexes to come into operation in Ireland. Those Acts empowered the Minister to make any orders, regulations or directions necessary to give effect to them.

The new authority will be similarly empowered to make orders and regulations and give directions giving effect to the ICOA annexes assigned to it in the schedule. As I mentioned earlier, any extension of the remit of the authority, for example, by giving it responsibility for new annexes, will have to have the affirmative approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas. Any orders and regulations which the authority makes on purely technical matters will be treated in the same way as ministerial orders are now, that is to say they will be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and may be annulled by a resolution of either House.

The Minister will retain responsibility for Ireland's compliance with the provisions of the convention as a whole and for the other ICOA annexes which deal with the meteorological services, search and rescue, aircraft accident investigation and security. These annexes which I have mentioned will not be the responsibility of the new authority. The Minister will also be responsible for the annex governing the facilitation of travellers in relation to customs and related matters.

It will be the responsibility of the new Irish Aviation Authority to give effect to the standards and recommended practices set out in the annexes to the ICOA which are listed in the schedule to the Bill. These annexes deal with personnel licensing, the rules of the air, aeronautical charts, the units of measurement to be used in ground and air operations, the operation of aircraft, aircraft nationality and registration marks, the airworthiness of aircraft, aeronautical telecommunications, air traffic services, aerodromes, aeronautical information services, environmental protection and the safe transport of dangerous goods by air. That, I am sure the House will agree, is a full and wide list of responsibilities.

In practical terms the new authority will manage the national airspace and provide air traffic control services and communications. It will also apply the standards for the regulation of aviation safety, for example, in licensing aviation personnel and certifying that aircraft are airworthy and in the orders and regulations governing the operation of aircraft and the safety aspect of aerodromes. From the point of view of the general public the transfer of these functions to the new authority will make no immediate difference. However, I hope that for the aviation industry the authority with its greater managerial autonomy will be in a position to be more responsive to the air industry's needs not just for services but also for accountability.

At this point I want to refer specifically to a recent controversy that this Bill will interfere with, or that the authority will dispense with, the services of the national Meteorological Service. I am therefore taking this opportunity briefly to sketch the situation as it is now and as it will be in the future. As the House will be aware, weather information is of critical importance to all aspects of flight operations. That importance is recognised by the fact that one of the annexes to the Chicago convention — annex 3 — is devoted to the whole question of aviation meteorology. The House will note that the new authority will not be taking responsibility for aviation meteorology.

Under the Chicago Convention, each State must designate the Meteorological Authority, which will provide meteorology services for international air navigation. In Ireland, that Authority is the Minister for Transport, Energy and Communications and the Irish Meteorological Service is part of his Department. The full cost — nearly £5 million per annum — of the weather services, which are provided by our Met Service to ANSO, and later on to the new Authority, will continue to be recouped from the users.

The Irish Aviation Authority Bill excludes the Aviation Authority from responsibility for meteorological services and leaves them with the Minister. The Irish Aviation Authority will need weather information from the Irish Met Service to carry out its air traffic control responsibilities. While I appreciate the concerns there may be in the Met Service, the fact is that this Bill focuses on the new Authority, what it will be, what it will do, the powers which it will have and the general framework of ministerial authority under which it will operate. The new authority, freed from the constraints of the Civil Service, will operate in a more businesslike and commercial manner, to the immediate benefit of the aviation industry and ultimately to the benefit of the travelling public.

Apart from the Chicago Convention, the new authority will also be responsible for giving effect to other international agreements, to which Ireland is a party, in so far as they relate to matters which are within its competence. The principal agreements which are relevant here are the requirements of the Joint Aviation Authorities of Europe and the Eurocontrol Convention. The Joint Aviation Authorities of Europe, know as the JAA, is a body formed by the various European authorities responsible for the safety and regulatory aspects of aviation. The JAA has been developing for a number of years and has gradually widened its remit from being concerned purely with airworthiness matters to the area of aircraft operations. It is also defining specific technical standards to give effect to EC Directives in personnel licensing and other areas. We welcome the development of a joint European approach and standards and, like ANSO, the new Irish Aviation Authority will participate fully in the work of the JAA.

The Eurocontrol Convention, which originated in 1960, is designed to assist member states to co-ordinate air traffic services and facilities and the management of the flow of air traffic in order to ensure the most effective utilisation of their airspace. There are currently 15 Eurocontrol member states including most states in the EC. By the end of this decade it is expected that there will be up to 20 member states in Eurocontrol including some, like Hungary, which is already a member, from Eastern Europe. We welcome the expansion of Eurocontrol membership. It symbolises Europe's determination to deal with its air traffic problems.

As the House is aware, air traffic congestion in European airspace has become an all too common and inconvenient problem in recent years. It is an extremely complex situation which ranges over issues such as national sovereignty, equipment, operation systems and procedures. In 1988 European Ministers for Transport took an initiative by defining a strategy to resolve European air traffic congestion problems. Eurocontrol was designated as the organisation with responsibility for implementing the strategy. Eurocontrol has developed a comprehensive plan to upgrade the air traffic system through the European air traffic control harmonisation and integration programme — a project known by the acronym "EATCHIP".

The EATCHIP project is a radical plan, aimed at creating a seamless air traffic control system covering European airspace through harmonising the many disparate systems and eventually integrating them. I am pleased to say that ANSO, by investment in staff and equipment over the past five years, has ensured that Irish air traffic control systems and procedures are fully compatible with the requirements of the EATCHIP programme.

As the House will be aware from my earlier remarks, Irish controlled airspace is a valuable national asset. It is vital that Ireland maintains its air traffic control systems and procedures at the forefront of European developments. Our airspace is a small but vital one, being at the interface between the North Atlantic and European systems. The House should be under no illusion: should we fail to provide the vital services required, or should the cost of those services be excessive, then international civil aviation will bypass us, either by re-routing or by reducing the airspace delegated to our control.

In conclusion, I wish to emphasise my conviction that the passing of this Bill, and the establishment of the Irish Aviation Authority will facilitate access by air to Ireland and promote the safety of navigation in Irish airspace. This will benefit our aviation industry and ultimately the entire country. I commend the Bill to the House and I look forward to the various contributions on this important and strategic Bill at a crucial time for Irish aviation.

I will begin by saying that we are dealing here with a very technical Bill and the Minister has introduced it by delivering an exceptionally lengthy speech. I have no doubt that the Minister has done this for the purpose of informing the House as fully as possible about the nature of what is intended in the Bill. However, by virtue of the fact that the Bill is very technical and that part of the Minister's speech is heavy in technical detail also, I am obliged to observe at this stage that the technical expertise that is available to the Minister is not available to Members on this side of the House.

That does not mean that the Senator lacks expertise.

Agreed. However, I am raising this point because of a debate in this House two weeks ago on a motion by the Independent Members which sought to provide certain research facilities for Members of this House. If that motion had been accepted it would, in some degree, have provided us with the type of expertise that we would need to contribute effectively to a measure such as this. Unfortunately, the Government choose to reject that motion and what it intended. It voted the motion down and because of that I believe a disservice has been rendered to the capacity of this House to fulfil as effectively as it should its duty as a legislative House.

I want to deal briefly with the history of the Bill. It was published in late June 1993 and was debated in the Dáil on Second Stage over two days in early July. In mid to late July it went to the Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy and it returned to the Dáil a few weeks ago where the Report and Final Stages of the Bill were taken. Having read the reports of the debates in the Dáil and in the Select Committee, I see that the Bill in its present form was subjected to many amendments, a number of which were made by the Minister himself. Indeed, I must acknowledge that the Minister responded positively to many of the points raised on Committee Stage. Because of that, the Bill has been improved considerably. Therefore, I want to compare the situation regarding the Bill at present before the Upper House of the Oireachtas compared with the situation that prevailed while the Bill was proceeding through the Lower House.

At this point, I want to raise the question of what role the Government really envisages for the Seanad in dealing with technical legislation of this kind without the expertise and the research facilities which should be available for Senators and which were requested and rejected. In addition, this House does not have the benefit of a select committee system which was available to the Members of the Dáil to deal with the legislation.

The Bill transfers functions which up to the present have been discharged by the Air Navigation and Services Office, known as ANSO, from the Minister's Department to a new commercial semi State body which will be known as the Irish Aviation Authority. Essentially, there are two functions being transferred, namely, the formulation and implementation of safety regulations and the responsibility for air traffic control.

In North America and in many European countries each of these functions is discharged by a separate body. The Minister in his contribution sought to justify why we should give both functions to one body in Ireland when they are discharged by separate bodies in North America and many European countries. My interpretation of his lengthy defence of not doing the same as other countries was that we are a small nation and cannot afford to do so. The verbiage was more extensive than that, but that is the argument when boiled down.

I join with the Minister in complimenting the safety record of ANSO personnel. As he said, of the nearly 600 personnel more than half are located in my constituency. They have provided a service up to the highest international standards over many years. It is most likely that more than half the staff of the new authority will be located in the Shannon region also. On their behalf, I seek a guarantee from the Minister that their employment will be maintained. This guarantee should not be glib, it should be enshrined in the legislation. The balance of the staff are employed at the Dublin and Cork airports and scattered throughout the country.

The airspace controlled by Ballygirreen — which is basically Shannon — together with the Prestwick link will come within the remit of the new agency. In view of Shannon's importance in the operation to date, the significant role envisaged for it for the future and given that the majority of staff are employed there it is only logical that the headquarters of the new agency be located there. That should be enshrined in this legislation.

This issue was argued in the other House and the response was the matter should be left to the judgment of the new authority when it is established. However, putting it in the Bill now would be a small gesture to an area whose economy and morale has been devastated by other air transport decisions in recent days. I invite the Minister to propose an appropriate amendment on Committee Stage.

Without straying too far from the Bill, this matter affects my area and I cannot understand the Government's reluctance to say they would actively support the concept of a CIS/Aeroflot hub at Shannon with pick-up rights. That should be done quickly before Stansted or Prestwick makes a better offer and the last remaining hope for progress in my area goes across the Irish Sea.

The control of Irish airspace has been mentioned. In 1992 there were 300,000 aircraft movements across the Atlantic. That is a vast number even when reduced to a daily average. It is an example of the outstanding service provided by the existing staff of ANSO. The Minister said these were mainly commercial aircraft but he did not say they were all commercial. It is obvious the balance were military aircraft. This has a certain significance to many people. Will the Minister put a figure on the number of military aircraft using Irish airspace?

The Minister also said the Irish Aviation Authority would be more flexible than ANSO because it will be freed from the shackles of the Civil Service. I have often indulged in the freedom of the Opposition benches to make a statement of that nature. Coming from a Government Minister it is a devastating statement——

I will clarify that.

——in view of the outstanding record of ANSO within the Civil Service. He spoke of the capacity of the new organisation to provide training and consultancy work and that is a welcome development.

The Minister mentioned a monopoly and the capacity to fix charges. However, he said the principal motivation was not a profit making one. That requires explanation. He mentioned that it is empowered to invest. Its principal function is not to make a profit yet it will be required to have a capital expenditure of £60 million before the end of the decade, it will be empowered to borrow up to £100 million of which 80 per cent will be guaranteed by the Exchequer, it will be empowered to invest in associated companies or subsidiaries and there will be no new investment by the Exchequer.

The Minister said we are creating an agency and removing it from the shackles of the Civil Service to enable it to operate in a more commercial and businesslike environment but we are saying it should not make a profit. That seems a contradiction and is certainly beyond my grasp. If it can make a profit can it make a loss? If it cannot do either the business and commercial environment within which it operates is highly unusual and we should hear more about it. In that context, its users are extremely cost-conscious and will be concerned with the quality of service and the level of costs. There is a moving away from the profit making potential within the organisation and simultaneously a requirement for investment, and that is an enormous contradiction.

Another area of concern is the possibility of conflict between the board and the experts. The Minister said section 36 provides a mechanism by which he can resolve such conflict. If he is to act as an independent adjudicator in those cases, what experts will be advising the Minister in resolving the conflict which involves another body of experts? Perhaps that is a matter to which the Minister will refer when replying.

Despite what the Minister said regarding the pay and conditions of the staff who will be transferred from the Civil Service to the new State agency, it is still definitely a grey area. This is particularly so with regard to the pension rights this personnel will lose once they lose their status as civil servants. There is genuine concern among the senior staff and I understand that a number of them will retire within the next few years. Their pension situation, despite what the Minister said, is still in a state of limbo.

Section 41 (12) deals with this arrangement. On page 30 it states that payments by the Minister for Finance "shall be made not later than 7 years after the vesting day". The Minister spoke about instalment payments or interim payments but the legislation is quite clear. It says that the payment shall be made not later than seven years after the vesting day. The Irish Aviation Authority, as the legislation is now framed, will have to operate for the greater part of seven years with a grossly underfunded pension fund. It is estimated that up to 10 per cent of the staff will retire within seven years.

The Minister of State indicated during Committee Stage debate in the other House that he would look at the possibility of bringing in amendments to safeguard that, but for some reason amendments were not tabled. This House should ask for and insist on amendments being made which would guarantee that the pension fund of the Irish Aviation Authority will be adequately funded by the State, through the Minister for Finance, so that its duty and obligations will be fulfilled.

The Minister has attempted to reassure us that ultimately everything will be all right. However, the fall-back position is in the legislation as it finally leaves the House and that quite clearly provides an opportunity for the Minister for Finance not to honour his or her obligations until the end of the seventh year from the date of the establishment of the board. This House requires that arrangements be put in place for the protection of staff pension rights. We have a clear duty and there is no room for ambiguity or uncertainty in the legislation that leaves here. Civil servants transferring to the new agency are entitled to a properly funded pension scheme. They would be concerned if that was not contained in the legislation when it finally leaves the Oireachtas.

Another area of concern is one relating to the meteorological service. Again, the Minister has attempted to say that it is not serious or that it is being exaggerated. However, the staff at the meteorological agency are seriously concerned that their professional work will be interfered with because even at present air traffic controllers in Shannon, Dublin and Cork are supplied with barometric equipment to take pressure readings at the airport. That function alone quite clearly cuts across the service provided by the meteorological service and it is a cause of great concern to the staff there.

Section 32 requires the submission of a report on safety standards to the Minister and his Department within three years of the establishment of this body. Three years is far too long a period. As this new body will be up and running apparently after 1 January next, its performance and capacity should be assessed after its first year in operation. Therefore, the three years should become one year, certainly in the initial years of the company.

The Minister referred to the matter of conflict of interest. He drew our attention to the provisions in sections 33 and 34. In general, I welcome the provisions but what the Minister means is that the provisions of the worker participation Act will not apply here and that because of a possible conflict of interest the workers' representatives will not, as of right, be entitled to a place on the board. The Minister has made a reasonable case but at the same time there has to be more convincing reasons why provisions of existing legislation are set aside to deny access to representatives of the workers, as a right, on the board of the company.

There is the issue of the conflict of interest but there are methods to resolve it. There are methods to ensure that nominees or people going forward for election to the board should be in a position to satisfy the Minister or the authority or some other body that in their personal cases a conflict of interest does not arise. At this stage of the discussion I regard it as unreasonable to exclude them. One further point is that the Minister said that because they will be excluded from participation within the nine member board, there will be some sort of an arrangement made at sub-board level. I do not know how one can compensate at sub-board level but I am prepared to wait until the Minister responds to the Second Stage debate before deciding what appropriate steps to take on this side of the House.

In conclusion, we are dealing with very technical legislation. We are dealing with the Minister's very lengthy introductory speech. I accept that it is lengthy because he wanted to give us as much information as possible. It is a regrettable state of affairs that we do not have available to us, as a right, the type of research facilities that would enable us to go into the minute detail of technical legislation of this nature. By denying that facility to this side of the House, the Government is not acting responsibly in ensuring that the Houses of the Oireachtas fulfil, as they should fulfil, their duties as legislators.

First, I welcome the Minister to the House again. He is a regular and welcome visitor to the Upper House. Before I comment on the Minister's Second Stage speech, I wish to concur to a great extent with the opening remarks of my colleague, Senator Howard, in relation to the function of this House. He raised fundamental issues relating to the future role of the Seanad in light of the reforms instituted in the other House this summer. The formation of select committees could be interpreted as usurping to some degree the traditional role of the Seanad as the second House of the Oireachtas which has provided checks and balances on legislation introduced by the Executive. It has debated this legislation in a reasoned, expert and non-partisan fashion. However, the detailed nature of the work now being undertaken by the Dáil select committees poses a new challenge to the traditional work of the Seanad. I hope, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, that you and other Members of the Seanad Committee on Procedure and Privileges will initiate a debate on this issue which is important to the future role of this House.

The most impressive part of the Minster's Second Stage speech on this Bill is that over 300 jobs are currently held in the Clare/Limerick area by employees of ANSO, the Air Navigation Services Office. The North Atlantic communications services provided from the aeronautical communications station at Ballygirreen, County Clare, where there are more than 100 staff employed, mainly radio officers, generated revenues of over £7 million in 1992 from charges of £36 levied on each aircraft using our system. This indicates that the future of those jobs is secure, certainly in the short to medium term. The general thrust of the Minister's philosophy behind the establishment of the new Irish Aviation Authority indicates that, as it expands its commercial operations, there should be more job creation opportunities in the Clare/Limerick area. While the transfer of these 300 jobs from ANSO to the new authority and out of the direct control of the Minister of the day is not motivated either by profit or a desire to increase revenue, it is obvious that the Minister believes the authority will be in a stronger position, as a semi-State body, to generate more revenue than is currently the case.

There was a great deal of criticism in the other House by Opposition Deputies who questioned the reasons given by the Government for the creation of the Irish Aviation Authority. Indeed, that hint of opposition permeated the contribution from the main Opposition speaker to some degree. It reminds me of a statement made by an American President in the 1920s, who said that "the business of America is business." To paraphrase this statement, the business of Government should be about formulating policy and not about day-to-day operational activities such as air traffic control. Indeed, the Minister said that the general trend of Government for over two decades here has been to separate policy and executive functions and that by so doing, Government can concentrate on its role of making and shaping policy. This has resulted in the setting up of many semi-State and executive bodies concentrating on specific functions, which are, as the Minister points out, conducted in accordance with policy as defined by Government.

I agree with the Minister that ANSO is a prime example of the type of executive organisation that would benefit from the flexibility of semi-State body status. The largest segment of business for the new authority will be the provision of air navigation and aeronautical communication services. The Minister stated:

The new authority may be a monopoly in Ireland. However, it must operate in an international arena, often in competition with similar international authorities. Aviation is a very international business and if the new authority charges are out of line, or their services are inadequate, it will become clear very quickly and they will have to rectify the situation immediately.

In 1992, both of these activities accounted for turnover of nearly £37 million in ANSO, which is more than 90 per cent of the revenue currently generated by the body. Opponents of the Government's move seem to have missed the point that the creation of the new authority will maximise our financial and employment benefits. Here I refer to the current position, where ANSO is employing over 600 civil servants.

In this new age of deregulation, irrespective of the Minister's remarks that the Irish Aviation Authority will not be required to make a profit, it is obvious that because the main customer of the authority will be the airline industry, one must assume that the new authority will actively encourage an increased use of Irish airspace. Indeed, the Minister points out that the current ANSO charges on aircraft using our en route services are the third lowest in the 16 national European route charging system operated by Eurocontrol, the European Air Traffic Control Agency. The airline industry is extremely competitive.

Throughout his Second Stage speech, the Minister of State made several references to the commercial aspect of the Irish Aviation Authority. He stated:

ANSO has already done some work on the development of its commercial mission statement and clear international benchmarks are given by the rates the authority will charge for its services. These rates can be readily compared with the unit charges levied by other administrations for air navigation services.

He went on to say:

Within the next decade, satellites, synthetic radar and advanced computing techniques will revolutionise airspace and air traffic management. It is foreseen too that new organisational, institutional and financing arrangements may be subsequently necessary and that at this stage, quite rightly, it is premature to predict what the impact of these technologies and systems will have for the new authority.

The new authority has the capability to engage in associated activities such as training and consultancy work. These are growth areas and there are many opportunities for profit, especially in the emerging markets in Asia and eastern Europe. I am especially pleased that this philosophy permeates the whole approach of the Minister in introducing this legislation.

It is a welcome feature of the Bill that regular and constructive consultation with the users, i.e the airlines, will be a feature of the business approach to be adopted by the new authority. There is, of course, a change occurring in international aviation at the moment. The Minister said "since the last war, aviation has gone through a regular series of booms and slumps, a notable feature of these cycles is the underlying long run growth trends in air traffic passengers and freight."

However, these conditions occurred in a highly regulated industry and I am not so sure that the reasons for these conditions of the last 30 years will be repeated in this new highly deregulated environment in which most world airlines will have to operate. It is certainly the way Aer Lingus will have to operate if it wishes to survive as a viable entity.

I especially welcome section 45 of the Bill, which provides that the Minister will pay the costs where he or she directs the authority to provide services and to exempt users such as search and rescue aircraft from being charged the cost of the service. As an island nation on the periphery of Europe, which is, as the Minister says, the interface between the north Atlantic and European systems, this aspect of the Bill is welcome. It is a sad but tragic reality that since the commencement of commercial aviation, there have been several fatal aircraft and marine disasters off our shores causing significant loss of life. There is also the ongoing danger that the north Atlantic weather patterns create for our offshore fishermen and for those who use the transatlantic air route. It would be in bad taste, at best, if Ireland were to charge search and rescue aircraft for providing their vital service.

It is not probably widely known that Irish controlled airspace covers over 100,000 square miles — three times our land surface area — and stretches out to a distance of 200 miles around our coast. Our airspace occupies an important strategic position on the air routes between Europe and north America. Indeed, almost 80 per cent of the annual traffic between the USA and Europe crosses our airspace. It is inevitable, sadly, that tragedies have and will continue to occur. For that reason, it is important that Ireland recognises that the change from a civil service environment, to a more commercially-orientated organisation will not result in any diminution of safety standards in this area.

I am interested in that section of the Bill in which the Minister will retain responsibility for accident investigation. This will not be assigned to the authority, although the Minister can call on the services of the authority staff, should the need arise. The authority will have powers relevant to air navigation and safety services but will not have any direct involvement in accident investigations. Perhaps the Minister could clarify why he feels he should retain this important aspect in his reply. There could be a cost factor involved or some traditional reason for it.

Another aspect of the Bill which needs some clarification is that the Irish Aviation Authority will not be allowed to set prices to make profits, that the charges for services are determined in accordance with principles set down by the International Civil Aviation Organisation and that these principles require the charges to be assessed on a cost recovery basis only.

The Minister said that the setting up of the new board would help to maximise financial and employment benefits to our country. I outlined a number of areas where the Minister indicated the new Irish Aviation Authority should be going in pursuit of those objectives.

I understand the employment benefits, but I would like the Minister to expand on the financial benefits which may accrue to the country from the establishment of this authority if the principles set down by ICAO require that charges be assessed on a cost-recovery basis only. The Minister mentioned this in relation to technological innovations which will come into force over the next decade. Given the fact that technology is changing at a rapid rate, it is unfair of me to expect the Minister to gaze into a crystal ball and come up with answers as to how the authority will make money in ten, 15 or 20 years.

As I said at the outset, the setting up of the new authority is timely due to the continuing deregulation of the international aviation industry and the dismantling, in Europe particularly, of national airline monopolies. Indeed, it is because of these international developments that Aer Lingus found itself in dire financial straits over the past few years. If the freedom of the skies policy works in Europe, as it has in the US since regulation came into force in the early 1980s, it will or should result in more passengers, thus resulting in more air miles being clocked up by the aviation industry and that will mean an increase in the use of Irish air space.

Although I do not wish to cast aspersions on Aer Lingus management, in light of changes outlined by the Minister in regard to the area covered by the new aviation authority and the context in which he put the changing pattern of the airline industry, the company could not continue to operate under its old work practices. To an outsider not conversant with the inside story as to how Aer Lingus operated over the past few years, it seems they had an ostrich-type attitude to the changes in the airline industry and deregulation.

If there is greater use of Irish airspace, the financial benefits which will accrue through the authority, and ultimately to the taxpayer, will be significant in the years to come. Will the Irish Aviation Authority have a role to play in encouraging greater use of Irish airspace? If so, perhaps the Minister might explain how the authority will go about that. Will they, for example, continue to operate a low cost philosophy which will result in more airlines using Irish airspace? In this context, may I interpret the Minister's remarks to mean that while the transfer of the stated functions to the new authority will make no immediate difference to the travelling public, the Minister hopes the new authority with its greater managerial autonomy will be more responsive to the air industry's needs and that now it will be freed from the constraint of the Civil Service and will operate in a business and commercial manner to the immediate benefit of the industry and the travelling public.

This point was commented on in the other House as casting aspersions on the commercial orientation of civil servants, as if being a civil servant meant one did not have a commercial brain in one's head. Civil servants would not agree with that perception. Perhaps it is the constraints under which they operate rather than the individuals which has created this perception. That argument is now redundant in this context, as the Irish Aviation Authority will remove a lot of the traditional activities of ANSO from the civil servants operating under the Minister.

I concur with Senator Howard when he complimented the 600 civil servants of ANSO who created and maintained the highest safety and regulatory standards which we are proud of. In handing over its powers and functions when becoming employees of a new semi-State body, employees of ANSO can hold their heads high as a result of the excellent contribution they have made.

In regard to commercial activities for the Irish Aviation Authority, will the authority actively seek new business, especially among European airlines? The Minister acknowledges that air traffic congestion in European airspace has become a problem in recent years. He points out that if we fail to provide the services required by the airline industry, or should the cost of those services be excessive, the national civil aviation will by-pass us by either re-routing or reducing the airspace delegated to our control.

It is in our interest to encourage greater use of our airspace by airlines experiencing severe traffic congestion in European airspace by further reducing the cost of using our airspace. Given the ongoing debate in Europe — and the Minister mentions this in the context of Eurocontrol and EATCHIP — Ireland, because of its good record in the area of air traffic control and safety regulations and its location, is poised to take advantage of the take off of airline activity following complete deregulation in the next few years. We would be seen as a favourable location for airlines which wish to escape the congestion in parts of Europe and, indeed, the uncertainty surrounding the air traffic situation. France is a good example, given the uncertainty of government relations with its air traffic controllers. These uncertainties have resulted in inconvenience to passengers travelling across Europe. We have been free from the problems faced by France and, indeed, the US during the Reagan years when he fired all US air traffic regulators because of the difficulties experienced in regard to the operation of the system.

I hope the transfer of powers from the Civil Service to a semi-State body will not result in such difficulties being experienced by Irish air traffic controllers. In that context, I am sure the Minister is aware of the need for a smooth transfer in terms of pay, conditions and pension rights. The Minister has addressed this issue and there has been much debate in recent months. The Minister said that the stage is now set for the conclusion of discussions with trade unions and staff interests with regard to the transfer of ANSO staff to the new aviation authority. With the Minister's continuing emphasis on the safety of navigation in Irish air space, the Irish Aviation Authority should proclaim the safety message internationally, this will benefit our aviation industry and ultimately the country.

To return to the question of employment, the Minister points out that Shannon is the principal centre for the control of air traffic entering or exiting North Atlantic air routes and that the importance of the Shannon centre is internationally recognised. Will the new Irish Aviation Authority be located in the Shannon region? If so, this will result in jobs for that area at a time when critics of Government policy in relation to Aer Lingus are predicting its demise in terms of its job creation potential and, indeed, Senators on the other side of the House have commented on this.

Senators on both sides.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

As it is now 1 o'clock I ask the Senator to move the suspension of business.

I would ask the Chair to allow me a minute. This would save me having to resume after lunch.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is 1 o'clock Senator and I would ask you to be very brief.

Thank you very much. I was going to say that I would encourage the Minister to locate the secretariat of the new Irish Aviation Authority in Drumshanbo, but sadly our nearest airport is Knock which is 45 miles away. Indeed, Knock International Airport might lay some claim to be the location for the new aviation authority on the basis that emphasis on Shannon has somehow overshadowed the efforts of those of us who are concerned about the orderly development of Knock airport as a location for in-bound transatlantic traffic whose passengers would be more inclined to visit the west and north-west than is currently the case with tourist traffic arriving at Shannon. Irrespective of where the Irish Aviation Authority is located, I welcome this legislation and I hope that the number of jobs in the Clare-Limerick area will be significantly increased under the guidance of the commercially minded aviation authority and so help to diminish, if not eliminate, the pain of those groups in the mid-west area who are genuinely concerned about their future.

Sitting suspended at 1.05 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.

I welcome the opportunity to contribute to the debate on this Bill. This is an extremely important Bill in that it is transferring responsibilities from ANSO, which is operated by the Civil Service — the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications — to a semi-State body, the new Irish Aviation Authority which the Bill proposes to establish.

I compliment the 600 civil servants who have operated this service very successfully over the years. They have received world acclaim for the standard of their competency, efficiency and the professional service they provided. It is important to recognise their contribution and to ensure those who will be transferred to the new authority as semi-State employees will be protected. I understand that power is vested in the Minister to designate from his Department certain personnel to the new authority. It is important that the Minister gives us a clear view as to how he proposes to proceed with that designation. The protection of these workers is vitally important. Nothing should be done which would damage their pension rights or their future as employees within the Civil Service, the semi-State body or private employment. I ask the Minister to ensure that, before the new authority is fully established at the beginning of January, all aspects of the future of these 600 employees are closely examined to ensure they are properly treated and will get the best possible deal. More than 300 of those employees are based in the Clare and Limerick areas, and they have provided an excellent service which should be recognised.

The Bill is unusual in that it is providing for a change from direct State involvement to semi-State involvement. A priority concern is to maintain safety standards in the aviation sector. We have great responsibilities in relation to the movement of aircraft across our airspace. The Minister stated that over 300,000 aircraft fly over Irish airspace each year; I was not aware it was such a large number. This amounts to about 800 aircraft flying over Irish airspace each day. The Minister said that about 120,000 land in Ireland and the remaining 180,000 travel elsewhere. Fees are collected by the Department for the aircraft that fly over. It would be useful if the Minister could give some indication of the class and type of aircraft. This point was raised earlier by Senator Howard. He asked how many of the 180,000 aircraft that fly over Irish airspace are military aircraft. Could the Minister tell us the nature of those aircraft, the countries from which they originate and the missions in which they are engaged. Senator Daly does not seem to be interested in this but it is important that we know what is flying over our airspace. I am sure the Minister is in a position to provide this information to the House.

There is a slight confusion; I referred to 300,000 air movements upwards, downwards, into the upper space and into the lower space.

What do you mean by up and down?

I will clarify that but I do not want people to think there are 800 planes flying over us at the moment.

Who is the pilot?

Could the Minister explain what is meant by up, down, in and out movements because it sounds curious to me? If there are 300,000 movements we need a very clear explanation——

The Minister is a politician, not a gymnast.

——of the nature of these aircraft because it is a remarkably high number. If we are to have an authority to control these movements, it is important that we know exactly what is involved and what responsibilities are faced by this semi-State operation.

You should discuss the Bill.

This is a matter of importance, a Chathaoirligh. I am sure the Minister will explain this position at the end of the debate. He stated we have 500 aircraft on the national register, 120 of which are large, publicly owned, GPA owns over half of them. Can the Minister give us information on the remaining aircraft — what type, do they include the Department of Defence aircraft, are they private, pleasure aircraft or commercial aircraft?

The Minister explained at great length why he brought together two aspects which appear to be very different and have very different specific functions, these are the regulatory authority and the operational function. He explained in detail why he and the Department came to the final conclusion of incorporating both. It is important that the Minister closely monitors this issue.

I am concerned about section 32 which provides for an audit every three years by the new authority for the Department in relation to the safety regulations they have put in place. The Minister and the Department should have a closer involvement at that level because, as the Minister said, we are concerned fundamentally with the safe operation of aircraft. There should be more contact by the Department with the authority in relation to safety. The Minister should examine section 32 with a view to closer involvement by the Department in the safety standards which are being implemented and considered. It is unwise to separate too quickly and completely something of such fundamental importance.

The Minister said that under section 36 the authority is to be a fully commercial operation, although this would not be the main priority. He said that this body would be available for training for other countries, particularly Asia and Eastern Europe, which would not have the same level of expertise as we do. I welcome this. When I was a spokesperson on defence in the Dáil, I strongly urged the then Minister to establish a United Nations training school in the Curragh; this has now been done. It is to be commended that we make our expertise available to others and thereby make a profit.

The Minister has retained unto himself responsibility for accident investigation. I also welcome this move which I think is important. The Minister is retaining the responsibility to investigate disasters but it is equally important that he would have a closer involvement in the safety regulations which are being put in place to ensure that such a situation would not arise. I ask the Minister to seriously consider that issue.

I argue with my colleague, Senator Howard, who made a case this morning about the establishment of the headquarters of this national aviation authority. I urge the Minister to seriously consider basing that headquarters in the Shannon area in County Clare. As the Minister knows, within the past week his Department made a serious and fundamental policy change in their renegotiation of the bilateral agreement with the United States on the transatlantic status of Shannon Airport and, as a result, people in the mid-west region, particularly County Clare, are very despondent and concerned about their futures in the aviation, tourism and industrial sectors. A little gesture from the Minister and the Government in the line of a specific commitment to establish the headquarters in Shannon or the Clare environs would be very welcome at this time. It would be a small gesture compared to the decision which has been made to undermine the cornerstone on which the economy of the mid-west and County Clare region has been based for the past 48 years. I hope the Minister will seriously consider that suggestion and table an amendment on Committee Stage rather than making a statement. The Minister may say that it is unprecedented to put something like that into a Bill but it was unprecedented for the bilateral agreement to be renegotiated to remove the status of Shannon. I believe that deserves a serious response.

I take this opportunity to ask the Minister to look at the two airlines, Aeroflot and Translift, which are prepared to provide direct services to the United States from Shannon. Unfortunately, to date, the Department and the Minister have not seen fit to issue licences to either carrier to provide that service. There is an opportunity there now and if the Government is serious about increasing tourist traffic into this country, surely the suggestion that two additional airlines are prepared to bring more people into Ireland cannot be dismissed out of hand. This matter must be looked at seriously, specifically in relation to Shannon Airport. I hope the Minister will be in a position to address it at a later stage.

As I said at the outset, this is an important Bill. The Minister delivered a long speech this morning for which I must compliment him because he went to great lengths to explain the detail of what he is doing and why he made specific decisions. We appreciate that.

I appeal to the Minister to ensure that the workers are protected and that nothing is done which will reduce their positions in the Civil Service or this new semi-State body. If the Minister is in a position to so do, I would like him to explain how current civil servants will be transferred from the Department to the new semi-State body. I gather the Minister has power under the Bill to designate certain people. I would like something more specific; will it depend on whether they are good Labour supporters or are just awkward officers in the Department——

I can assure the Senator that there will be no political considerations.

Senator Taylor-Quinn is inviting a row in this House and I do not like rows.

No political qualification will be necessary.

(Interruptions.)

I am sure there will be a fine economic contribution from Senator Ross. We would like to know what professional criteria will be applied to assessing who should move to the new authority and who should remain in the Civil Service. I look forward to further debate on this issue on Committee Stage and I hope the Minister will be in a position to bring in an amendment to locate the headquarters in Shannon or in the Clare area.

Senator Magner is next to speak but I understand that since Senator Quinn has a deadline to meet, Senator Magner has agreed to allow Senator Quinn speak. It is simply a transfer of speakers. I have no objection, in the spirit of co-operation which exists in this House and I am sure the House will agree. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I thank Senator Magner. I intend to give some business to the aviation industry this afternoon which is part of the reason I am working to a tight deadline. I welcome the Minister to the House and welcome this Bill in principle, because it illustrates the sort of activity which should be carried out by a State agency rather than by a Government Department. The services which are provided by the Air Navigation Services Office are highly technical and were explained well today by the Minister. I thank him for his detailed explanation to which I listened with great interest.

The office is restricted to one field of aviation and it appears, from a commercial point of view, to be more or less self-sufficient. Therefore, it is right that it should be hived off in this way, particularly since the new structure will give it the means and the encouragement to extend its expertise into other related areas, such as consultancy, which may make money for the State. In other words, all the activities at which we are looking here have a commercial logic which binds them together. It is better that they should be expressed in one State agency, which can create its own ethos and professional identity rather than a Government Department. I listened carefully to the Minister today when he spoke about the regulatory and operational functions, how the decision to tie them together was established and the other alternatives which were offered. I think they are easily accepted.

Having welcomed the principle of the Bill, I would like to add two comments which are of a more critical nature. First, I am disappointed in the narrowness of the scope of the Bill. It singularly takes the Air Navigation Services Office and turns it into an agency. That is fine as far as it goes but the Bill could have gone much further. The direction in which it could have gone is indicated by the name given to the new body — the Irish Aviation Authority. A national aviation authority would normally have much wider powers than those which are being set out in this Bill. One would normally expect a civil aviation authority to be responsible for the economic aspects of civil aviation policy, which under this Bill will remain with the Government. I think it is a pity that these aspects have not been hived off as well. Therefore, the name of the new body, the Irish Aviation Authority, is something of a misnomer.

Does it matter? I think it does because the new body is not being given the central part of its role. It relates to the approval of applications from airlines to fly in and out of our country. Decision-making in this area should be out in the open and not hidden behind Government doors and it should be taken according to principles which are seen to be just and fair. An agency would be a more suitable place for these decisions rather than a Government Department.

There is widespread belief in the aviation world that route approvals by airlines under the present arrangements are subject to a veto by Aer Lingus. I am in favour of giving Aer Lingus a fair crack of the whip when appropriate. However, by allowing Aer Lingus to veto new route approvals it gives it the opportunity to play dog in the manger, and that is what I am afraid of. In the past Aer Lingus argued against route approvals, even when the application did not compete with its operation.

Our national interest in aviation is wider than the interests of Aer Lingus. Senator Taylor-Quinn mentioned this when she spoke. Given the recent developments in relation to the compulsory stopover, we have a strong national interest in creating a wide range of routes through Shannon. In approaching the development of these new routes it is important that we operate in the national interest and not only in the interests of Aer Lingus. This could be done better through an agency rather than a Government Department.

A national civil aviation authority does not have responsibility for a national airline, unlike a Government Department. It can be even handed and, more importantly, it can be seen to be even handed. It can operate according to principles which are openly expressed and are subject to criticisms and reviews. There is nothing to stop a national civil aviation authority acting in the national interest. I suggest it could be part of its remit.

There is a temptation to equate the national interest with the interests of Aer Lingus and the sponsoring Department of the airline may find this temptation hard to resist. The scope of the Bill is narrow, and I regret this because the Irish Aviation Authority will now have a misleading name. In my view the only aviation function which should have been reserved for the Department was the task of negotiating international agreements on air rights. That is a proper function for a Government Department and is the only one, apart from supervision, which should be reserved for the Department.

My other main comment relates to the State guaranteeing the borrowings of commercial State agencies. I made this point on a number of occasions. We are hiving off some functions to a commercial company owned by the State. These activities pay for themselves. Indeed, there is a welcome suggestion that they might become modestly profitable and this is a confident hope. The type of organisation chosen is that of a private limited company and it is interesting to note that the company is specifically exempted from the requirement to have working directors, unlike other commercial State companies. In these circumstances why are we endowing this company with the power to borrow up to £80 million under a State guarantee? This is not a small sum of money.

I have been a Member of this House since February. However, in those few months I have seen new State guarantees created by legislation to the tune of approximately £0.5 billion. This is a bad practice which many people, including myself, thought was being phased out. It is not being phased out; it is on the increase. I object to State guarantees for borrowings by commercial State agencies because it makes the lenders happy. Financial institutions——

And the Labour Party.

Especially the Labour Party. Senator Quinn is giving Senator Ross great comfort.

——are particular to whom they lend. Therefore, they undergo strict supervision. However, if they have a State guarantee they do not bother with strict supervision. It disciplines a company, whether it is a private or State company, if they have to bargain, negotiate and prove to the banks that it is worthwhile offering them money. If the loan is guaranteed by the State, lenders become careless because they do not have to worry about the commercial viability of the loan. If the financial institutions were taking the risk, they would worry a lot more. They would ask more questions and they would put pressure on the State agency to keep its borrowing in line with commercial realities and its ability to repay.

The argument in favour of State guarantees is a bad one. The argument is that it allows the State to borrow a little cheaper than it would otherwise have been able to do. However, this is false saving, if it is a saving at all. At the end of the day the cost to the State could be greater as a result of a borrowing policy which is not commercially sound. Unfortunately, we have had many examples of this in the past. A commercial State agency should always borrow against the value of its assets or against the commercial prospect of it being able to pay back the money. No commercial State agency should have the crutch of State guarantees to lean on. It is a bad practice and we should stop it, as I thought we had undertaken to do in the past. However, we seem to be extending it month after month.

With these reservations, I welcome the Bill and I was pleased to hear the Minister of State describe the way the functions will be treated. The Bill has been carefully considered. Although it is not in the Minister's remit, the Patents Office should be considered for similar treatment. Another point which Senator Howard and Senator Taylor-Quinn mentioned was decentralisation. Perhaps telecommunications technology makes Shannon the perfect place for decentralisation.

We are attacked by Senator Ross for being members of the Labour Party. It is like being conferred with the order of Lenin. It is a great honour.

An appropriate one.

I know it is difficult for Senator Ross to be present once again at the birth of a semi-State baby. It is like throwing holy water on the devil. However, it will happen. Even as a part-time member of Fine Gael, it is impossible for him to stop it.

He is enjoying it.

A fair weather friend.

He is not; Fine Gael stayed with him through thick and thin, including the last election. He is not a fair weather friend; he may be part-time, but when he is with them he is with them.

I love what you are saying, but please keep to the Bill.

On a more serious note, I was going to say——

Do not bother.

I will read what the Senator will say in the Sunday Independent. As it is already written, perhaps he could circulate the script to us now and save us buying the paper.

It is not often that the services supplied by the old Air Navigation Services Office are brought to the attention of the House. In that respect it is fitting that the House should pay tribute to the men and women who staffed that service. For those of us who use their services, they are the invisible hand that guides us to our destinations and safely home again.

It is necessary to mark the fact that we are saying farewell to what has been part of a Government Department for many years. Before we welcome the Irish Aviation Authority, we should acknowledge the tremendous debt we owe those people for the high standard of skill and expertise they have exercised through the years. When one looks at the scope of activities in the old office and now the Irish Aviation Authority, the skills these people bring to bear are awesome in many cases.

Deputy Taylor-Quinn and the minister had a discussion as to what constituted a movement. In terms of aircraft, whether the movement be up or down or in and out, somebody controls them. The control of so many different movements in the airspace constitutes a great skill which these people have. It is not just traffic controllers but also radio operators and flight operators, all of whom combine to ensure that Ireland's reputation as a safe place to travel in and out of is maintained.

It is forgotten that one accident in that area can do enormous damage to Ireland's reputation. One mistake can undo years of positive publicity promoting the State as a good place to do business and a safe place to be. One mistake at that level can do untold damage. Therefore, as I said at the outset, we owe them an incalculable debt.

It is a job that requires 100 per cent concentration and it is obvious from their record and international status that this is precisely what it is given. I ask the Minister to convey to the people in that Department, prior to their move, how much their efforts are appreciated. It is seldom said because they seldom come to the attention of the House.

The authority will have two functions and the Minister addressed this in his speech. They are the regulation of air safety standards and the provision of navigation services. I would have shared the doubt he mentioned but Deputy Treacy did something which is unusual in the House to some extent. Too often in the past ministerial speeches seemed to obscure the issues rather than throw light on them. They anticipate arguments that nobody ever makes and they never address arguments that seem to be self-evident to most people.

The Minister took a most unusual decision in his speech; he decided to be entirely helpful. It is a new experience for people on both sides of the House that one can come in and get a concise and extensive brief on the legislation one is being asked to pass. It was extremely helpful. Looking at the dual function, the regulation of air safety standards and the provision of navigation services, I too had some doubts about it. I always believed that one should not be a judge in one's own case or court. However, the Minister has satisfied me that under the circumstances, and given the size of the operation, there was little else he could do.

I am also pleased that he is introducing the monitoring and auditing of standards under section 32 and that he has a block on board decisions in relation to safety matters under section 36. That is also important. This is not the sort of area which one can say is just commonsense. When dealing with jumbo jets it has to be more than a matter of commonsense; one has to be technically accurate and correct. The fact that the board would have to refer a safety matter, through the chief executive officer, to the Minister and his experts before it can be implemented is a feature of the Bill which I welcome. As I said, the ball game is too big for guessing and this is a necessary obstacle to prevent the making of wrong decisions.

Senator Quinn made a fair point, and I know Senator Ross will address it. It was in relation to State borrowings and State guarantees. The State sector has made an enormous contribution to the development of this country. When private enterprise neither had the guts nor initiative to do something, the State went in and did it. I am very proud of what State enterprise has achieved over the years. We are all, including Senator Ross, beneficiaries of the skill, enterprise, dedication and commitment of people who, instead of working for private profit, decided to work for the State. I am proud of their contribution.

Having said that, nobody in their sane mind wants to see money misused. I have made the point within the confines of my own party and other places that the level of control in relation to financial matters in State companies leaves much to be desired. I do not deviate from that. I have always felt that if at the end of the day the political masters are answerable, they should have had more say in terms of how money is spent.

The Aer Lingus holiday matter is an absolute disgrace. Heads should have been strung around St. Stephen's Green on lamp posts when £17 million of ordinary people's money can be lost and those responsible just walk away. That is disgraceful. I would not justify it in private enterprise or State enterprise. People such as Senator Ross are never as vehement when the private individual does a bunk on a public company as they are when the public company turns in upon itself. Perhaps we should be more even handed.

On that issue I would say this to the Minister. They can have the commercial freedom to do certain things but at the end of the day the State is the pay master and they should be answerable to the State. Too often Ministers have said that these are semi-State bodies and must have commercial freedom. However, they are not carrying the commercial risks and this is the dichotomy. They cannot have commercial freedom from the Exchequer when they are not providing the funds themselves. We do not have the mechanisms to monitor finances and at the same time allow these bodies operate in the commercial world. I am not sure what that mechanism should be, but it seems to be lacking in State companies.

I understood from the Minister's speech that the governing body, the International Civil Aviation Organisation, does not allow the Authority to operate on a profit making basis. However, they do allow operation on a cost-recovery basis. Am I am correct?

That is correct.

One cannot by law make a profit. One presumes that any capital investment by the new authority is recoverable on that cost-recovery basis and that charges would be made accordingly. That suggests that there would not be a risk and that the services would have to go up in price to justify the input of the new money. I hope that is the case; Senator Ross is going to tell me.

A Chathaoirligh, thank you very much for your indulgence. I look forward to hearing what the independent unit within the Fine Gael Party has to say about the matter.

I was hoping that you were going to go back to your office.

I was delighted to record that this is the third time in a row I have been in this House speaking on a topic either before or just after Senator Magner. It is the third time in a row that Senator Magner has depended upon everything I had or have to say for his own speech. This time it was somewhat unique because he spoke before me, simply because he was stuck as Senator Quinn took his place in the queue. Unfortunately, he was then put in the position that he had to anticipate what I had to say rather than speak after me and depend on me for his speech.

Before I bought the paper.

I do not know whether The Labour Party asks Senator Magner to make these speeches or if he comes in and volunteers, embarrassing them in consequence. However, the best thing about——

Could you move on, Senator, please?

——Senator Magner's speeches which everybody must notice is his hands; has anybody looked at his hands when he speaks? They are all over the place. They are more active and productive than his mind.

I have heard Senator Magner speak intelligently — very rarely — about other subjects in this House but today's contribution was not one of his greatest moments. Nevertheless, I will reply to some of his comments because he was right in anticipating a great deal of what I intended to say.

The Senator just contradicted himself.

Let Senator Ross continue without interruption.

And apologise.

I wish to deal with the Senator's point regarding criticisms of the public and private sector. He is right to say that I have made stringent criticisms of the public sector. However, he is obviously not quite as avid a reader of my writings as he claims to be.

I have other things to do.

I have had many libel writs from people in the private sector, although only one has resulted in damages being awarded. I have had no libel writs from anyone in the public sector, which probably indicates that the public sector has not been maligned in any untruthful way. I have strong feelings about the public sector and I was glad that Senator Magner conceded some of the faults in that sector.

I have serious problems with this Bill. The Minister said "the Bill will transform the Air Navigation Services Office of our Department — ANSO as it is known — from a Civil Service agency to a commercial semi-State body". That is simply moving out of the frying pan into the fire. After the litany of disasters in what the Minister insists on calling "commercial semi-State bodies" which are not commercial but exactly the opposite as they have lost money hand over fist, it is appalling that we should now transfer from a Civil Service agency to a commercial State-sponsored body.

Let us look at the record of semi-State bodies, especially in recent times. It is quite extraordinary that we are creating another one which, from my reading of the Minister's speech, is in serious danger of going down exactly the same road as the other non-commercial State-sponsored bodies. With the Government guarantees referred to by Senator Magner and Senator Quinn and the apparent attempts to be commercial, there is a serious danger that we will go down that road.

There is no guarantee that this body will make any money. There is a serious problem in this Bill, which Senator Magner and the Minister mentioned, because of the conflict of interest between the safety element and the commercial element in this body. That conflict is insoluble. Safety is expensive; it is one of the most expensive problems in our society. It is also essential. However, safety is non-commercial, it is a damned nuisance for people who are trying to make money. If the people enforcing safety regulations are also trying to make money — as will occur in this situation — there will be a clear conflict of interest regardless of safeguards.

I do not believe that the Minister's safeguards are watertight; nor, apparently, does the Minister. His speech is full of qualifying phrases such as "as far as possible" and "as far as practicable" which must be included because there are serious difficulties with reconciling these principles in this Bill. I know the Minister will not look at it again but we should be aware that at some time in the future that conflict will pose real difficulties for the Minister.

The Minister said that one of the reasons this body must be set up in its present form is the difficulty in recruiting staff in the Civil Service with the expertise in this area. That is a distressing reflection on the Civil Service. A fundamental problem which the Civil Service does not acknowledge is that it is not getting the right people because it cannot pay them sufficient money. They are going into the private sector.

The Government of the day tried to tackle that problem about three years ago with the National Treasury Management Agency. In that case the Department of Finance, which managed the national debt, decided — I am still not quite sure of its reasons — that it was better to have what it called "professional people" from the private sector managing the national debt. In order to do that it had to acknowledge that they could not recruit people from the private sector at Civil Service pay levels. The NTMA was created at commercial levels outside the Civil Service. I am not sure that it has been a success. I challenge Senator Magner on that. That is an area where I have been particularly critical of performance in the private sector. Indeed, the NTMA was responsible for many of the appalling decisions during the devaluation difficulties last January and it obviously gave very bad advice. I do not know whether the Department would have given different advice in that situation. It might not have done. The advice was bad and it cost us a lot of money.

We must recognise our difficulties in recruiting people to the Civil Service at commercial rates. They are recognised explicitly by the Minister in this Bill. The Minister gives several alternative courses he could have taken and mentions, only in passing, the possibility of the Minister retaining power of regulation and safety. I would have thought it logical to separate this rather than merge the two activities of the Irish Aviation Authority because the Minister and his civil servants can quite adequately and impartially regulate safety. It is when you merge with the commercial area that you run into serious problems.

This commercial semi-State body is identical in structure to other commercial semi-State bodies. It is what the Minister calls the "commercial semi-State body model". It is also identical in its worst aspects. It has a nine person board appointed by the Minister. That, inevitably, will lead to political pressure and political appointments. The experience is that Ministers appoint their cronies to the board, people who know absolutely nothing about the industry into which they have suddenly been plunged.

There will be no cronies on this new board.

I will be delighted to see it. Will there not be a single member of a political party on this new board? Will there not be a member with a party affiliation on the new board? Will there not be a single member who is a supporter of a political party on this board? Is that what the Minister is telling me?

I cannot answer for the discretion of people to support any political party but they will be appointed on their track record.

It will be the first such occurrence in the history of this State. We are witnessing a watershed in Irish life. We will have a semi-State board which is appointed on merit. This will be revolutionary and I am delighted to see it on the record of the House. When I see this nine member board I will be delighted to be able to say that these guys are squeaky clean, without political taint or affiliation or political faith.

How often does the Senator pray?

I welcome it and I will crucify the Minister of State with that pledge if it is not honoured. It is a hostage to fortune which I warmly welcome and I take the word of the Minister of State.

Unfortunately, the reality is that the structure is there for the Minister to appoint the board and the experience is that ministerial appointments of boards have been disastrous in the case of semi-State bodies. Worse still is that with regard to the safety regulation and the conflict of interest to which the Minister of State honestly referred, the Minister is also the ultimate arbiter. As he said, there are certain safeguards but if there is a conflict the Minister will decide what is safe.

In this case the Minister will decide policy and safety and who appoints everybody to the board. No workers will be elected to the board under the normal circumstances, according to the worker participation Acts, because of the possible conflict of interest. However, the only possibility of employees being put on the board is through appointment by the Minister. This is a similar quango to all the others. It is a repeat of what we have seen before with the same non commercial mandate. Every time it comes to this House it is dressed up differently and each time we go down the same road with the same political appointments, we lose plenty of money and come back to this House looking for more. We give them large guaranteed loans and then when we go over those loans——

To whom would the Senator give the money?

Senator Ross, without interruption.

Greencore?

Let me go ahead.

Senator Ross without interruption. Senator Ross you are not helping the situation.

I am trying hard but I know Senator Magner.

It is either the State or it is private. It is quite simple.

Senator Ross without interruption.

Thank you a Chathaoirligh. The Minister of State talked about conflicts of interest and there is an acknowledgement of that problem here but the language he uses admits not only its existence but the possibility of it continuing. He talks about it being minimised but he does not talk about it being eliminated. In his honest and open speech the Minister of State sees the real difficulties which will arise in the future because of conflicts of interest in this area. The marker must go down here that it is unsuitable for safety to mix with commerce without a complete separation of powers but this Bill does quite the opposite. It tries to mix oil and water and sooner or later we will have incidents which will cause serious problems in this area.

The Minister of State spoke with some confidence about this Bill costing the Exchequer no new investment, this is true. Setting up the authority will cost the Exchequer nothing but the prospects later on are dangerous. The assets will be funded by a mixture of debt and equity in proportions which the Minister of State does not tell us and which, for some reason, are subject to later negotiations. We know, since he tells us, that there will be a £100 million borrowing capacity and, of that, £80 million will be Government guaranteed. Therefore, the potential liability for the Government in this Bill is only £80 million.

The Minister of State did not give us any reason for the Government giving guarantees. If this authority — or half of it — will be run as some sort of a commercial body why should the Government need to give it guarantees? Why can it not borrow money from a bank who will be happy to lend it if it is a viable proposition? Apparently the State will stand behind this body and give the guarantees which it has given elsewhere, with disastrous results.

On top of that the Minister of State gives a figure of £60 million for the capital expenditure which this body will incur in the next seven years. I do not know where he got that figure but we are talking about £9 million to £10 million per annum in capital expenditure. Apparently this is to keep up with modern technological developments in the industry and I presume it is for that £60 million that the £80 million guarantee is being given. However, the Government should not give an £80 million guarantee for £60 million capital expenditure without explaining what the budget is like. What are the projections and forecasts for the next seven years?

This reminds me of Telecom Éireann which, it is stated in an independent report, needs — in similar terms but on a far larger scale — £225 million a year just to keep up with modern technology. It does not know where it will get this sum. It says it will be generated by its own funds and that when it seeks £225 million from the EC Structural Funds it gets £20 million. One can only conclude that it is £180 million short. I hope we will not have a similar situation in this case where £60 million is being sought over seven years and it appears that it will be borrowed.

However, I do not know if there are any projections as to how that will be repaid, if it is to be repaid, whether profit projections are large enough to repay that amount of money or whether it just needs that £60 million to keep going and will not be able to pay it back. That is what will happen in Telecom Éireann, it happened in Aer Lingus and in every semi-State body because they know that, first, they will be able to borrow the money and secondly, they will not have to pay it back. If this company borrows £80 million to keep up with modern technology and cannot pay it back then either the Government will have to pay it back out of taxpayers' money or they will have to lay off people, as happened in Aer Lingus.

I am suspicious of any Government Minister who comes into this House and tells us that he wants authority to give Government guarantees to semi-State bodies. We know what the lesson of that has been in nearly every case. If the money is necessary they should be able to go to the banks and borrow it. If the banks will not lend it to them there is something wrong. That makes sense. It appears that here we are seeing another set-up, a propping up of a semi-State body if need be. There should not be any more State guarantees. In the modern world it does not make any sense and it merely creates trouble for the Minister or his successors. We know that as it has been proven time and again.

I was horrified — and it was the Minister of State who alerted me to this — to find that we are creating what he calls a monopoly type provider of services. It is not a monopoly type provider of services, it is a monopoly; it is a simple monopoly in Irish air space. The Minister says that it will be all right, but that it is going to have to be competitive, that it will have to compete with international competitors in certain areas but not in others. The same thing is happening to Telecom Éireann. It has to compete with international competitors in certain areas and that has been disastrous for that company.

I suppose that it is impossible for the Minister to consider, although he mentions it — I am sure that Senator Magner did not notice it because he would have protested——

To whom does the Senator want to sell? Tell the House.

Senator Magner——

Who are the old buddies out there?

Senator Ross, you are inviting problems for yourself. Would you please address the Chair?

I can always rely on you, a Chathaoirligh, if I have problems with myself. Senator Magner——

Would the Senator please tell the House to whom he is going to sell it?

Senator Magner omitted to pick the Minister up on something which I believe was very difficult for the Senator to take, where the Minister said that the Government might have to look at privatisation of certain parts in the future. That is going to be very difficult for Senator Magner, because his party, in whom he has faith, has made a principled statement about no more sale of State assets. Yet the Minister has the nerve to include in his speech a reference to possible privatisation down the line. The Senator may have to look at it. It is in the Minister's speech and I will find the relevant excerpt shortly.

I remember it well. I said "in the event of a situation whereby".

"Whereby", exactly, but that situation cannot arise because the Minister has Senator Magner in government with him——

It was an absolute crystal clear guarantee.

That is if the Senator came to power. The Minister has to allow for all these possibilities.

Senator Magner failed to pick up the Minister and say, as his leader did——

Which of the Senator's friends have been lined up to sell to? The Senator should tell the House.

Senator Magner should not——

Senator Ross, please continue without interruption. Do not be seeking an invitation to a further row in this House.

I hate the idea of friction or rows and I hope that Senator Magner will give me the sort of reception I gave to him while he was speaking.

(Interruptions.)

The future possibility of privatisation of certain services here is something which the Minister did not rule out. I congratulate the Minister on that because, although he acknowledges that this is a monopoly in order to keep his quiet friends in coalition happy — as long as one says "monopoly" it is a good buzz word and it shuts Senator Magner up; it is about the only thing that does keep him quiet——

It is called happiness.

——but the Minister then goes and blows it by speaking in the next paragraph of privatisation. Unfortunately — but fortunately for the Minister — Senator Magner did not read that far in the Minister's speech. He only listened to my speech, he has not read the Minister's speech at all and it is quite obvious from what he said that——

I trust the Minister.

However, I am telling the Senator now what is in the Minister's speech. I believe finally——

The Senator and myself trust one another.

Finally.

"Finally" is the buzz word.

I put it to the Minister——

——that the position of the staff is something that has been mentioned on all sides of the House. It is something which politicians, especially members of the Labour Party, repeat——

The Senator wants to sack everybody in the State sector.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ross without interruption. I ask Senator Magner to desist from interruption.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ross without interruption. I am surprised at Senator Magner.

——repeat with ritual regularity in this House. Whenever there is a danger to jobs they weep crocodile tears.

This is the panzer division in the Fine Gael Party.

What they do not acknowledge——

It is scandalous.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

I will have to ask Senator Magner to desist. Senator Ross without interruption.

We cannot continue to guarantee every single job in the State sector until the end of time. This is what I learnt from Senator Magner a few minutes ago. This is what Senator Magner and his friends want to do. The Senator wants to guarantee for all time that once someone has a job in the State sector it is there forever. To his cost the Senator has found that the commercial reality of life, even the limited commercial reality of the semi-State sector, enforces a new rule that there are no safe jobs anywhere. There is no total security of tenure. There cannot be because the State and the taxpayer cannot continue to subsidise commercial State-sponsored bodies.

(Interruptions.)

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

Senator Ross without interruption. Senator Magner had an opportunity to speak earlier. Senator Ross without any further interruptions.

Thank you, a Leas-Chathaoirligh, I am concluding. I have deep reservations about this Bill because I believe that it is very dangerous to be setting up yet another non-commercial semi-State body.

Like some of the Senators in this House, I welcome this legislation and compliment the Minister of State, Deputy Treacy, for bringing the legislation before this House. As everybody knows, this has been talked about for some time. This legislation raises a number of technical issues which have already been commented on. It also deals with some fundamental issues and issues of principle that I believe need to be tackled at this time. I am satisfied that the Bill affords us an opportunity not only to discuss the massive changes taking place in the aviation business at the present time but also an opportunity to discuss the whole direction in which the international aviation business is progressing. On that account I believe the Bill is both timely and welcome.

Earlier the Minister indicated the huge involvement of the Irish air navigational services in Eurocontrol and indicated that the Irish area of responsibility covered 100,000 square miles. The Minister also gave detailed figures about the number of flight movements. There have been some hijackings here, but the reality is that Irish airspace has been managed very successfully since the establishment of the Department whose personnel have operated in a capable and professional way.

I have had the opportunity on numerous occasions to visit the air traffic control centre at Shannon and also the centre at Ballygirreen, which between them employ about half the present staff. They have over the years not only kept abreast of technological developments, by the introduction of new systems but even with their existing arrangement they have made Irish airspace probably the safest in the world. The safety record in Shannon, Dublin and Cork — and indeed in Knock and the other regional airports — is an example of a dedicated professional staff managing a highly sophisticated and complicated system. It also shows how the skills of Irish personnel have been brought to the point where they can compete with the skills of those anywhere in the world in this area.

This legislation examines whether it is not now timely and necessary to put in place an administrative arrangement which will enable the service to prosper in the future and to sustain the present jobs in that sector. It will also be able to embark upon new challenges and areas offering possibilities and openings for permanent, sustainable long term employment. I compliment the staff involved for the work they have done over the years, I welcome the new authority and wish it every success.

As a priority the Irish Aviation Authority should look at the technological changes in satellite communications which offer exciting challenges. Up to now the international aviation authorities have not used satellite communication in their business. It would mean massive investment by aircraft companies, retraining of personnel and new infrastructure. The reality is that satellite communication is here to stay.

The maritime industry may have gone further ahead in this area. The Department of the Marine and our maritime personnel and fishing industry have adapted to the satellite communications system. When the aviation business, which has gone through a turbulent period, decides to use the satellite network, there will be dramatic changes.

One need only reflect on the changes in satellite television communications in recent years, even recent months. The most remote parts of west Clare receive Sky, Super and other channels never dreamt possible.

They do not need them.

In some of those areas it is not possible to receive Network 2 although the various satellite channels are available. The developments there indicate what will take place in the aviation business when it turns to satellite communication. It will require investment in training and expertise. Therefore, this semi-State body, which will offer the opportunity for autonomy, flexibility and investment, must face the major challenge quickly. In Ireland we need to be in the forefront and that requires energetic, dynamic bodies such as this, with the finances to undertake the necessary work and investment.

Senator Ross asked about State guarantees for investment and whether banks would do what is being done by the State. I recall my time in the Department of the Marine when Irish fishermen had to go to Norwegian banks to get money to finance their vessels. I do not know the position now but the Senator can ask the successful fishermen in Killybegs, and on the west coast, who financed them in a risk industry when they required it.

We financed the banks, remember AIB.

When one considers the huge investment needed in this area and whether we should have Government guarantees, one should remember the competitors seeking this business. Senator Howard and politicians in Clare are now more familiar with the aviation business than we have been in the last 20 years. What will happen to those competing in the business? Will the British Government and the others competing for air traffic control and navigation systems not support their aviation industries?

It is not a question of the Irish banks supporting an Irish State agency but of competing for this lucrative and important business where we have the advantage and a key role to play in the next five to 20 years. We will be competing with companies from France and the United Kingdom, both of whom support their industries, and many other international airports who would be glad to get this business and would have full financial backing from their respective Governments. No one should be under any illusions about that. If Senator Ross does not think that is the way planes fly at present he is at a different airport from me.

He is on a different planet.

He files kites.

As the Minister said we have 100,000 square miles of airway, a 200-mile limit and control important areas where we have the advantage. This new dynamic body will have a major opportunity to get involved in this area of activity and will be able to assist many companies in the creation of long term sustainable jobs. The Minister mentioned some of those involved; pilots, air traffic controllers, technicians and associated personnel. We read about the area but perhaps we know little of it.

Not only do we have the opportunity to create sustainable high-tech jobs through the agency, we have a basis for establishing in the Shannon area training and consultancy work in a national aviation training college. I suggest that to the Minister as forcefully as I can. Shannon Airport is the correct location for this. It has highly qualified personnel and the experience of training many crews for international airlines, such as British Airways and Northwest Orient. I was present at the launch of the French supersonic aircraft, Concorde.

In the Shannon area we have expertise and professionalism that can form the basis of a national aviation training college which would not only train young Irish personnel and retrain those who might, because of circumstances, have to move to new areas of activity but would also offer the opportunity of a European base for many others, who have perhaps already trained in Shannon, to train again in corridors which are less congested than the main ones in Europe. Shannon would be an ideal location for such a college, it would create many jobs and foster economic activity and prosperity. This would be availed of by many companies.

In the Shannon region we have seen the success of companies like Aerospace and Guinness Peat Aviation, now part of General Electric, one of the biggest companies in the world; in partnership with Lufthansa and Swissair they have set up this novel aircraft maintenance facility in Shannon. In spite of difficult circumstances in the international aviation business, it has already had tremendous success. Young trainees are being hired to work in aviation and where success is sufficient they are continuing their projects. It is hoped to create between 3,000 and 4,000 jobs in the next number of years.

There are also opportunities for companies like TEAM Aer Lingus, which has gone through a troubled period in recent months. We in politics have an obligation to support management, unions and workers and those involved in the difficult negotiations in Aer Lingus. We must put our weight behind the efforts to solve those problems and help make the venture a success. Training, consultancy, aircraft fitting, maintenance, instrumentation and avionics all offer ideal opportunities for many permanent long term jobs. This new agency will have an important role in that work. I already mentioned the necessity to have in place a streamlined, efficient operation and I intend to raise a number of technical points with the Minister. I will probably have an opportunity to do that on Committee Stage. For example, I would like the relationship between the chief executive officer and the board more clearly defined and perhaps some input from the Department through direct representation on the board by departmental personnel.

I was in Government and I know that for a number of years the Department's link on older boards — which were set up by the Department and which included a principal officer and an assistant secretary — was stopped. It was felt it might be better to get more people from the private sector and cut the links with Departments. In hindsight I am not certain that was a wise decision. I fully believe in worker participation on the board and I am not certain that this has been dealt with in the legislation. I do not think the Minister referred to it.

I would like to see worker participation and departmental involvement on the board although I would not like it to be hampered in its deliberations through control from Departments or Ministers for Finance. However, I also believe it is necessary to spell out more clearly the relationship between the chief executive and the board. Perhaps it is in the Bill — I did not see it — but I presume that the chief executive is an ex officio member of the board. Too often I have seen situations where boards have not had the best dialogue and communication with their chief executive and where chief executives, even on matters of Government policy, enunciated their personal views rather than the policy.

In my view, and perhaps in that of several Ministers, semi-State bodies are an arm and a leg of Government policy. If semi-State commercial bodies are set up to operate in a Government environment, then surely they should be responsive to Government policy. Individual executives enunciating their own personal views as semi-State policy is not the best way to ensure success. It needs to be spelled out clearly in this legislation, whether it would be advisable to have a clearer definition between the role of the chief executive, the authority, the board and the Minister and the Department.

I would like to see clearer definition in the Government area. It is fair to reorganise Government Departments and agencies such as this, which do such valuable work. However, I am not clear about the responsibility of Government Departments. For example, the Department of the Marine has responsibility in the area of search and rescue; the Department of Defence has its own responsibilities in relation to defence training and aviation and the Department of Communications has responsibility for the overall area of communication — modernisation or investment. If one proposes to restructure one's administration, one also has to restructure Government Departments. There is a timely opportunity now to look at whether it would be possible to have closer liaison between the various Departments involved in this area and the agencies who have difficulty at times putting into practice departmental Governmental policy. It is often quite difficult to get a clear view on Government policy, that goes for all Governments. Its very nature means that people employed in agencies such as this are not clear on the lines of demarcation, where their responsibilities lie and to whom they are responsible. Perhaps the Minister of State with overall responsibility in this area — none better than the Minister of State present — would pull together the various strands of activity across the broad spectrum of perhaps three or four Departments. That should be examined.

The standards that operated in our Irish system up to now are internationally recognised as being of outstanding quality. Again I pay tribute to the people who have been involved in the Department. Many of them spend much of their time taking care of the safety of hundreds of thousands of passengers. It is only when one goes to the air traffic control tower in Shannon, sees the dots flashing on the screen and recognises that one dot constitutes 500 people in a jumbo jet, that one realises the responsibility that rests in the hands of the personnel who operate those services. We appreciate their dedication, skill and expertise and the result of their activities over the years — our safety record — demonstrates their effectiveness.

As half the staff of the existing Department are located in the midwest, and in the Shannon area in particular, and given the difficulties there with the necessary drastic changes in aviation business and Aer Lingus, it would be opportune and fully appreciated in the region if a decision was taken to locate the headquarters of this new authority in Shannon. I fully support the views expressed by Senator Howard and Members of the other House when this matter was discussed. Nevertheless, I have never seen these matters written into legislation. I was responsible for decentralising many Government Departments to many different locations, including Ennis, but legislation did not specify that the headquarters of, for example, the Revenue Commissioners or the Department of Agriculture should be in Castlebar, Ballina, Ennis or Cork. I do not believe it would be possible to do that and I would not support any amendment to that effect. I do not think it can be done and I do not expect the Minister to be in a position to do it.

There will be the usual political posturing about this and we will be made walk through the lobbies. It will be suggested that we voted against Shannon but I know that will not be misinterpreted in Shannon. The Minister is quite aware that I have made the strongest possible representations about this matter and I will continue to do so. There are justifiable grounds for establishing the headquarters of the new authority in Shannon and I sincerely hope the Minister will be able to do that.

I hope to have an opportunity on Committee Stage to go into some of the other details that need to be examined. In the area of air traffic control, where there are pilots, electronic engineers, radio officers and experts of every type, it is vitally important to have a modern sophisticated agency capable of responding to the modern needs of the aviation industry which went through a difficult time in the last few years but it is now showing evidence of recovery. This demands that we take these measures now and it is timely and worthwhile to do so.

We cannot be cost effective in regard to safety measures or apply commercial criteria to safety procedures. For that reason I am certain the Minister will pay special attention to ensuring that this legislation will not undermine the effective safety standards and procedures which have been adopted since the foundation of the State. I am glad this legislation has been introduced. I again compliment the Minister for the professional way he introduced it here and steered it through the other House. It is important to have a man of his dynamism in this area of responsibility at present. I wish him every success with this new legislation.

I also welcome this legislation and congratulate the Minister and his staff on their care and consideration shown in its preparation. I echo the comments made by Senator Daly, whose expertise and experience in this area I highly respect. He has great experience of the air transport industry due to his close association with Shannon Airport over the years. In regard to his contribution on the proposed legislation, it is fitting that Senator Daly should have proposed the setting up of a national aviation training college at Shannon. Shannon has made a great contribution to air traffic over the years. The expertise that exists there and the commitment and attitude of the workforce, would, as Senator Daly said, make it a suitable place and his idea must be considered. It is an excellent idea and I compliment him on it. I hope that the Minister, being from the West himself, will seriously examine this proposal.

As we all know, the aviation industry has experienced great growth over the last 20 years and there is enormous potential for sustainable employment in this sector, especially for young people. It is a high-tech industry; and when one sees the successes of GPA and TEAM Aer Lingus and the potential they have for employment, it is one area the development of which Members in both Houses must totally support. I was out at TEAM's facilities on two separate occasions and it was good to see the amount of employment they have created since 1987. I know they are going through a difficult period at present, but it is worth noting that since 1987 they have created in excess of 3,000 jobs.

We have all noticed the changing trends in passenger transportation from sea to air. For example, passenger traffic has increased at Dublin Airport by 5 per cent each year over the last ten years. Although difficult trading circumstances exist worldwide at present, to have an increase of 2 per cent to 4 per cent traffic per month this year on last year's figures shows that, even in these hard times, there is enormous potential in the industry for this country, especially since it is a service industry. I was in the USA two weeks ago and I saw miniature television screens in the backs of the passenger seats in the aircraft. I was delighted to be told by one of the stewardesses that this work was carried out by TEAM Aer Lingus. Not enough credit has been given to our achievements in this area.

As Senator Daly has said, we as politicians have a massive responsibility to promote and encourage — I underline the latter word — those who are job creators. We can make progress in those areas. It baffles me why the media concentrate on the negative aspects of the news. Of the seven or eight major items on the news each evening, there will be only one positive news story a week. If people are exposed to enough negative stories, they begin to believe them. The examples I have outlined show that the aviation industry has a bright future.

Naturally, because technology is changing at such a rapid rate — we are now in the world of satellite communications — this is a matter that must be addressed. Often what might have been the centre-piece of an exhibition at Earls' Court three months ago could be out of date when a similar show takes place in Berlin next week. With satellite technology communications are changing rapidly. This Bill enables that to be taken into account.

Senator Ross seemed to have had some difficulty with the references to money guarantees, but Senator Daly correctly outlined that we are dealing here in a highly commercial world and that we must face reality. Some of our European partners are past masters when it comes to protecting their own industries.

Mechanisms.

We only have to look at the French and their bicycle industry. We do not have to apologise to anyone because our own financial institutions have combined with the Government in putting a package together to compete. All of us know that you must be competitive and that you will only get the business if the price is right. If Shannon's tendering price to service an aircraft is $100,000 while London tender $75,000, the business will go to London.

It is fine to criticise, but give me the creator any day. He or she is the person our country needs and we will have a bright future with such people. We have no future whatsoever with the pessimists. I have always said that there are terrific people in this country and we should be supporting them. For far too long we have given the advantage to those who were not residing here. This Government must give the Irish people the same opportunity to create jobs here in their own industries and give them the same support as was given to those who were not domiciled here. I know from my own personal experience that it is much easier for the native person to create employment and to keep it going than it is for someone coming from the outside and having to start from scratch.

I support this Bill and I look forward to its passage through the House.

Ba mhaith liom thar mo cheann féin agus thar cheann mo Roinn, mo bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na Seanadóirí go léir a ghlac páirt sa díospóireacht seo. Chuir siad óráidí breátha os comhair an Tí agus thug siad tacaíocht don Bhille seo a bheas mar Acht i gceann tamaill bhig.

I would like to sincerely thank the House for the constructive and helpful approach which has been taken in relation to the Bill. Many points have been raised and while I may not address them all individually, I feel sure that the general approach which we are taking is one that will find common consent on all sides.

The concerns that have been expressed about the dual roles of the new authority, that is both regulation and operational services, is a matter that causes us some concern. As I outlined in my initial remarks, we sought ways in which to avoid or contain the areas of possible conflict, but without success. In the circumstances we have come up with what is a pragmatic and practical solution. Indeed, I should mention, not in justification but in explanation, that in both the United Kingdom and the United States of America, regulatory and operational functions are combined in one organisation, the CAA in the UK and the FAA in the USA. That solution involves a regular independent audit of the authority's work, combined with the Minister's responsibility for accident investigation and overall safety policy. These are the keys which will reassure the public and the industry that the authority is acting transparently in the public interest. The functions carried out by ANSO, although highly technical and complex, are also of a commercial character. Safety is the prime consideration and there is no question of safety standards being diminished for commercial reasons. However, that does not mean we should not have a commercial approach. It is important for the organisation and its users that its functions are discharged effectively and efficiently. ANSO users operate in a highly competitive international airline market, where safety, costs and effectiveness are the cutting edges of commerciality. We who operate in this international market, whether as ANSO or the new authority must have the capacity to respond in a highly competitive and commercial manner to the needs of the users.

Concern has been expressed in relation to staff interests. I assure the House we are conscious of these concerns, especially in relation to superannuation. As the House is aware, superannuation is not only an emotive issue, it is an immensely complex one. However, in the case of the proposals for the Irish Aviation Authority, staff need have no concerns. The provisions in this Bill copperfasten existing and future pension rights of ANSO staff and full provision is being made to ensure funding is available to meet their pension entitlements.

The creation of the new authority will open up new areas of opportunities. In the past few days approaches have been made by foreign companies and administrations seeking advice and assistance. These are the opportunities on which the new authority, we hope, will capitalise. The Air Navigation Services Office has provided us with a well regulated aviation industry and effective and efficient air navigation services. We must build and develop on that solid foundation and setting up the authority is the next logical step. The Irish Aviation Authority will ensure we maintain our pre-eminence in European air navigation systems and at the same time have the opportunity to expand and develop beyond what I describe as the purely domestic market.

On the question of going from Civil Service status to semi-State status, I want to make a number of points. First, the civil servants in ANSO, like all public servants, have the highest standard of competence and integrity. However, they must and do operate within the constraints of staff and finance imposed by the Exchequer. Those cumbersome constraints are necessary for Exchequer reasons, they hamper and indeed prevent ANSO from taking a commercial approach. We are aware that Civil Service systems and structures are not, for many good and worthwhile reasons, designed for commercial operations. Our plans for ANSO are designed to convert it to a commercial standard of operation.

The question of profit or loss making operations was raised. When the worldwide air navigation systems were being established the approach was that they should be provided on a non-profit making basis. The ESB, for example, was established on the same basis. I assure Senators that the pensions of the transferred staff who retire will be secure.

User charges received from Eurocontrol include a payment in respect of the superannuation contributions of staff and these payments will provide an adequate cash flow to cover the pensions of staff as they retire. The deferral of the payments by the Minister for Finance would not involve the pension fund in any real loss as it will be paid interest for the period for which the money was outstanding. Senators will be aware that staff who retire before vesting day will receive their normal pensions as civil servants and will not be paid from the authority's pension fund. The superannuation benefits of staff, including those who retire before vesting day and those who are transferred to the authority will be secure and honoured.

Senator Howard suggested that the technical audit of the authority be carried out more frequently than once every three years. I sympathise with this approach and I assure the House that I will seek a special report in its first year of operation. Three years is a maximum period as such reports can and will be sought more frequently. Although I am sympathetic to the principle, I am averse to being too rigid about setting a one year period in legislation.

I will clarify the position regarding accident investigation. In the event of an accident, the standards set by ANSO, later to become the Irish Aviation Authority, or the instructions given by air traffic control staff could be a contributory factor leading to the accident. In those circumstances, it would be wrong for the new authority to investigate itself. Hence, the Minister of the day will be responsible for accident investigation.

The authority, as I explained, cannot make profits on its core regulatory and air traffic control functions. However, the new authority can make profits on the training and consultancy services which it will provide. Already ANSO has been involved in this in a small way, including training controllers from such areas as Asia and the Middle East.

There is some confusion about air traffic data. There are in excess of 300,000 aircraft movements in Irish airspace annually. Airspace is structured in separate sectors so that it can be safely controlled. The Irish upper airspace operates above 25,000 feet. This is where most international air traffic operates. The lower airspace sector below 25,000 feet is where most domestic air traffic operates. It also includes control zones for Shannon, Dublin and Cork airports. A movement by an aircraft into, or from one of these sectors constitutes one movement. Thus at one extreme, one flight movement could be just that. On the other hand, the jumbo coming from the US descending from the upper airspace above 25,000 feet, entering the lower airspace below 25,000 feet and landing at Shannon constitutes three movements. To observe this at first hand in an air traffic control centre is, as Senator Daly mentioned, a fascinating experience.

Regarding military flights which excite some interest, there are standard diplomatic procedures under which military flights operate through Irish airspace. Military aircraft are free to operate outside our airspace, in international airspace over the North Atlantic on the international air routes. This international traffic constitutes some 200,000 movements per annum. The volume of this traffic, which constitutes international military flights, is on average only 3 per cent.

On the question of borrowing approximately £100 million and the guarantee limits of £80 million, we must be clear what these provisions mean. We recognise the dangers of high borrowings and high guarantee limits. I value contributions made by Senators in regard to the economic, fiscal and financial management aspect. The new authority can now recover its costs, as Senator Magner mentioned, which include its borrowings and the interest on those borrowings. Nevertheless, we understand and acknowledge the principles involved.

I listened with interest to all contributions, particularly that made by Senator Daly, regarding the proposal for a national aviation college perhaps located at Shannon.

I thought the Senator mentioned Cork.

Obviously, if the Minister was to proceed with that idea, he would consider all areas, for example, Cork, Kilkenny, Galway, Clare or Drumshanbo as Senator Mooney mentioned. I was interested in that idea, it is one which I have not considered. Senator Daly mentioned avionics, consultancy and training and the opportunities they would create. I do not know whether it would be feasible to proceed with this, but it is a meritorious proposal. We have the skills and expertise and we are an island nation. Not alone would it fill a role nationally but there must be an international dimension to it also. I will ask the officials in my Department to examine this in its totality and see whether it is a feasible proposal. I cannot say whether it would be or not.

I note the request from all three Senators from Clare to locate the headquarters in Shannon Airport. It never has been policy to define, name or allocate a particular location in any legislation for the headquarters of any authority. That would be a matter for the Minister, the board, and the Government which would have to decide ultimately what is best in the national interest. Obviously, we will take every consideration on board before we reach a final conclusion.

I have taken due note of all the other points that have been raised and, while I may not have responded to them all individually, we will be back here again next Wednesday on Committee Stage. If there are any further points that need clarification then I would be only too delighted to do my utmost to respond to the requirements of the House. It is a great pleasure to be back in the Seanad. This is an important Bill and Senators have addressed it in a positive way. It has a major contribution to make in giving a commercial opportunity to experts in our country who can capitalise on their expertise and track record to provide an even better service for national and international users and for ancillary activities in the aviation industry, which is of vital importance to us as an island nation. I look forward to seeing Senators again on Committee Stage next Wednesday. Ba mhaith liom fíor-bhuíochas a ghabháil leis na Seanadóirí uilig toisc an tacaíocht a fuair mé ar an Bille seo.

Question put and agreed to.
Committee Stage ordered for Wednesday, 10 November 1993.
Sitting suspended at 3.50 p.m. and resumed at 4 p.m.
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