Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Dec 1993

Vol. 138 No. 11

Adjournment Matters. - Halting Sites.

Mr. Farrelly

I want to thank you, Sir, for the opportunity to raise the following matter: the need for the Minister for the Environment to outline the action, if any, he intends taking if his instructions to Meath County Council in a letter dated 28 October 1993 regarding the provision of halting sites is not implemented. The end of the letter of the November meeting of the council read to us stated that:

The Minister of State now wishes to give advance notice to housing authorities that it is his intention not to approve the 1994 housing programme submitted by any authority that does not include proposals for the provision of halting sites. Housing authorities may be assured of the Department's full co-operation and that adequate funding will be made available to fund the programme for the provision of services in the halting sites, subject, of course, to compliance with cost control.

In one town in our county, we have provided 78 families with homes, between halting sites and houses over the last number of years. As far as I am concerned, that Minister's direction to us is like waving a big stick at the local authority and other members of the community. If we do not act as he wishes we will not receive any funds to build accommodation for those who have been on the housing waiting list for years.

There are two points to my argument. First, the travelling families in Ireland are the only people who can decide, if a site is provided in a certain area, that they do not like it and they do not have to stay there. The buck stops with the Minister for Equality and Law Reform and the Minister present for introducing a proposal that, if certain individuals or local authorities provide a site which is accessible to certain towns, they will go to that site.

We have a situation that does not exist anywhere else. There are 22 families — 40 adults and 75 children, living on the road leading to a community school, which cost £1.3 million to build in the mid-1980s. Unfortunately, ordinary children are being intimidated continuously. The council recommended that a halting site be provided further down the road. That is a lovely idea but things do not work that way. In ten years' time every school will be canvassing families looking for their children and the last school they will want to go to will be a school beside a halting site.

The Minister's colleague, who was here earlier, said at a council meeting of local authorities when this matter was discussed that we should advertise for a 25 acre site reasonably close to Navan and that we should provide proper halting bays for the families concerned. Is that the policy of the Labour Party or the Government? I have no problem supporting it but I have been a member of a local authority for 19 years and it has provided accommodation for a total of 78 families. We will not consider continuing to support a policy which will devalue houses in which people have invested their life savings by providing sites up against housing estates in the town.

I want to know the Minister's opinion of the overall development. I believe that unless there is a national policy where every town will do the same thing at the same time, the problem of providing halting sites will never be solved. I have looked at this in substantial detail over a number of years. What will happen if a council cannot decide on a halting site? I and my colleagues will not support the proposal to provide a halting site across the road from a community school — which 800 pupils attend at present — because it would be the beginning of the demise of the school. We will not support a policy that will damage that school, which was provided by the taxpayers in the mid-1980s to cater for up to 900 pupils.

I ask the Minister if a proposal to provide a site within a reasonable distance of any town in Ireland, never mind the county I represent, would be acceptable to the policy of the present Government? The bottom line is that no matter which end of town is chosen there will be problems. Taking into consideration the efforts which have been made by this authority, I would not like to think that the people on housing lists will not be housed by the end of 1994 because the Minister says if we do not provide halting sites, we will not get the money we need. That is waving a stick. This Government, with 138 Members in the Lower House and a majority of 38, seems to be saying it cannot be touched. My local authority will not accept that.

The Minister should take into consideration that we have provided 78 homes for families, between halting sites and houses. That is as much as any other county has done. The Acting Chairman's county has made great strides in this area but the buck must stop somewhere. The bottom line is that the Government has not decided that if a particular site is provided within a reasonable distance of any town the travellers must go there. At present they can refuse. The law must be changed because the situation is getting serious.

Taking into account the night that is in it, we would all like to think that the travellers are in nice halting sites or houses but there are many of them in accommodation and are seeking better accommodation. On the basis of the Minister's letter to Meath County Council on 28 October 1993, we are being told that there will be no money to provide badly needed houses in 1994 unless the other problem is solved. The Minister is passing the buck and I would appreciate if he would outline exactly where the Government stands on this issue.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment (Mr. Stagg)

Let me start by drawing attention to the commitments in the Programme for a Partnership Government 1993-1997 that local authorities throughout the State would be required to provide an acceptable level of accommodation for the many traveller families who are now living in caravans on unserviced roadside sites. That is Government policy and it is my job to implement it.

The task facing local authorities in providing the required accommodation is considerable but by no means insurmountable. The realisation of the Government's objective will clearly necessitate a major expansion in the current level of the programme for the provision of halting sites by housing authorities. It will, in particular, call for an intensification of effort by those housing authorities whose level of activity in this regard has to date been less than it should have been. I need hardly stress that the 1,000 or more traveller families who are living in completely unsuitable and unsanitary conditions on the roadside and elsewhere throughout the country must be provided with adequate accommodation as quickly as possible.

The September quarterly bulletin of housing statistics, to be published shortly, will include a table showing the number of traveller families in each housing authority area seeking accommodation in residential caravan parks. It will be seen that, apart from Dublin County Council, the number in most housing authority areas is not large. Some authorities have not played their part over the years in providing accommodation for traveller families. This lack of action by some authorities exacerbates the problem in other areas.

It is crucial that each housing authority does its share in the continued national effort to reduce the unacceptable living conditions of so many traveller families. In these circumstances I decided that each housing authority must, unless it can be shown not to be necessary — and that is also in my circular — include in their 1994 housing programme realistic and feasible halting site proposals to go ahead in their areas. The proposals developed in response to this request should address the need for the provision of halting sites identified by an authority as part of the assessment of needs under section 9 of the Housing Act, 1988, carried out by each authority on 31 March last. It may, of course, be appropriate, depending on local circumstances, that the proposals for halting sites should be developed and implemented as a joint measure by two or more authorities or by one authority on behalf of another.

The selection of sites and the design of the accommodation to be provided are matters entirely for local authorities and need careful consideration having regard to the needs of travelling people. If these matters are attended to, excessive costs can be avoided. Local authorities have an obligation to ensure that they do not make proposals for halting sites which are too costly. While adequate funding will be made available, there is a limit to the cost per bay that can be tolerated. For example, earlier this year I felt compelled to decline to approve a project, the cost of which per bay would have been not far short of the price of three houses.

It should not have been necessary for me to issue the instructions I have given but, despite continuous exhortation by various Ministers over the years, some authorities are still not playing their part. Indeed, housing authorities have a duty under section 13 of the Housing Act, 1988, to apply themselves to the task of providing the necessary accommodation in halting sites.

Local authority members and management have over the years sought more functions and responsibilities. I am in favour of increasing devolution as against centralisation but local authorities must face up to their existing responsibilities if they want their demands for more devolution to be taken seriously. This means taking hard decisions when necessary. Local authorities have to carry out difficult and demanding functions every day. Progress in the provision of halting sites is simply too slow. As I said earlier, apart from a few areas, the number of sites needed to meet local needs is not great and there is no excuse for not solving the problem.

I expect housing authorities to face up to their responsibilities. I want to see a stepping up of the programme throughout the country next year so that authorities who play their part in meeting the accommodation of travellers in their own areas will not suffer from the lack of action by a few authorities. I understand in the Senator's county a halting site has been provided in Navan, with some group housing and that the provision of a further two sites are under consideration at Navan and Trim. I hope these two sites will commence next year and I assume they will be part of the housing programme which the Senator's local authority will submit. As I outlined in the circular, if his local authority can show that further accommodation is unnecessary in that area, it need not be included in the programme. If this not shown, then it must included.

This problem has gone on for too long and the Government and I want it solved. Housing authorities may be assured of the Department's co-operation and that adequate funding will be made available to fund the programmes for the provision of serviced halting sites subject, of course, to compliance with the cost control and other procedures applicable to the programme.

I have been briefed by my colleague, Deputy B. Fitzgerald, on the current situation in Navan. If the law has been broken, it is a matter for the gardaí

Mr. Farrelly

They cannot be moved.

Mr. Stagg

I assure the House that reasonable proposals from the local authority in Meath will be met and funded by my Department. The Senator, the House and the county manager must be aware there are different criteria and standards in relation to provisions for indigenous and transient travellers. The location of the site is a matter for the local authority to decide.

Mr. Farrelly

The law must be changed.

Mr. Stagg

The law states that where a site is provided, people cannot illegally park in an area close to the site. If accommodation is available, they must avail of it. I am aware of the difficult situation in Navan and I will deal with proposals from the local authority as soon as I receive them.

Mr. Farrelly

I thank the Minister for his reply. I did not expect his answer to bring the House down with laughter and cheers. If the local authority provides a site within reasonable distance of a town, will individuals be required by law to go that site? At present, that is not the case.

Mr. Stagg

If accommodation is available, the exemption which travellers have in relation to illegal parking no longer exists. A High Court or a Supreme Court decision gives them the right to park illegally until accommodation is provided. If accommodation is provided, that right no longer exists.

The Seanad adjourned at 9.15 p.m. until 10.30 a.m. on Thursday, 9 December 1993.