Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 15 Dec 1993

Vol. 138 No. 14

Order of Business.

Mr. Wright

I am sure the House would want me to wish both the Taoiseach and Tánaiste well in their visit to London this morning in their effort to secure peace for this island. Today could be a very historic one for this country. I am sure others will wish them both well on behalf of all who live on this island.

Today's Order of Business will be Items 1, 2 and 37. Item 1 will be taken from now until its conclusion and we will then proceed to Item 2. I suggest 20 minutes per spokesperson and 15 minutes thereafter. Item 37 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m. and Item 2 will continue at 8 p.m. to be concluded before 10 p.m.

Mr. Manning

I join with the Leader of the House in wishing the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the Irish team well in the discussions. If what appears to be on the cards today happens, a framework will have been put in place in which real progress can be made. Nobody wants to exaggerate the possibilities as there are still a number of people to be brought on side and a number of problems to be overcome. However, what is happening is extremely positive. The Irish Government has the luxury of all party support on this major matter and that should be a source of great strength to it today. On behalf of my own party I wish those involved the very best of luck.

On more mundane matters, I want to refer to the legislation being taken between now and the end of the session. The Government proposes to push two Bills through all Stages tomorrow. That is not acceptable and will be opposed.

An Cathaoirleach

I have to say that is tomorrow's business.

Mr. Manning

I am simply giving a deed of foresight, a Chathaoirligh. You may rule me out of order, but I also want to mention next week's business. When we spoke to the Whips earlier there were two proposals for next week—all Stages of the Aer Lingus Bill and the introduction of the Appropriation Bill, as is normal at this time of the year. We are now told that two other Items may be proposed for next week. We will particularly resist any attempt to push through all Stages of the Oireachtas (Allowances to Members) (Amendment) Bill next week because there is one part of that Bill which affects the working conditions of many Members of this House. It is a Bill which needs to be teased out in legal and trade union terms and it would be unfair——

An Cathaoirleach

We will not have a debate on it today.

Mr. Manning

It is important and I want to signal my concern.

An Cathaoirleach

Having said that, I understand what the Senator is talking about.

Mr. Manning

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh. I also ask the Leader if he could provide the House with some elaboration and information on the refusal of the Government to allow the President to accept the position relating to reform of the UN. The Labour members of the Cabinet must have been absent when this was decided.

Mr. Magner

Do not be mischievous.

Mr. Manning

If there are legal reasons the President cannot accept this offer——

Mr. Magner

Do not be nasty.

Mr. Manning

My party would be prepared to consider any legislation which would allow the President to accept this offer which reflects honour on this country and indeed could make a contribution to the development of the UN.

An Cathaoirleach

This is not relevant to the Order of Business. You are getting away with this because it is the Christmas season.

Mr. Quinn

I speak for Senator Henry and myself when I join with Senator Manning in wishing the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste every success today. I regard today as an historic day and I know I speak on behalf of everybody in this House when I say that we look forward to the success of this. It is a day of opportunity and we hope to grasp the opportunity on this occasion. While the work of the Seanad is going on here this morning there is an opportunity for those who are not involved here to hear the voice of Unionism in Buswells Hotel at 12 o'clock. Dr. Chris McGimpsey is speaking to a group from the Glencree Centre for Reconciliation and I know all Members are welcome.

In regard to more mundane matters, which Senator Manning also spoke about, I shiver whenever I read the words "all Stages". We are in danger of allowing ourselves to be treated as a rubber stamp whenever we do that. It is imperative, in spite of all the legislation which has to come through the House between now and Christmas, that we at least urge the Leader to take one step, that is to have some sort of a gap between the Stages. The Bills which are coming through this week may come through, but at least let us arrange to have some gap between the various Stages. If we do not achieve this we are in serious danger of accepting the term "rubber stamp" with which we have been branded on occasion in this House. We will deserve it if we permit that to be done to us in future.

Mr. Dardis

We all extend to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the British Prime Minister every good wish in their efforts this morning to advance the cause of peace on our island. The words we use before we assemble in the mornings, "Direct our actions, oh Lord" would be appropriate in their circumstances as well this morning.

It is important to say that in these circumstances it is appalling that we continue to see bombs being used in Northern Ireland and that people have been killed in the past few days. So there are many hurdles to be cleared. These matters underline the call we made yesterday that we would return to the adjourned matter of Statements on Northern Ireland, Item 10, as soon as possible as it would afford us an opportunity to comment on what is taking place. It has been stated by many people on all sides of the House that the tone of the debate which has taken place here has been balanced, reasonable and constructive and I am sure it will continue in that vein.

The other matter has to do with GATT. It seems extraordinary that the French National Assembly meets to decide formally the position of France on a GATT deal and we seem to be able to conduct all of these international treaties and negotiations unilaterally without any reference at all to Parliament. That is undemocratic and these matters should be brought back and referred to Parliament.

In respect of the legislation coming to us, the consideration of Bills and taking all Stages of a Bill, it is reasonable to say that where we are given adequate time we frequently detect flaws in Bills. It is not a question of scoring political points, frequently this House has detected flaws in Bills and has improved them as a result of detecting those flaws. That is why it is very important that there should be an interval between Second Stage and subsequent Stages for consideration of Bills.

Ms O'Sullivan

I wish to join with the other Members on behalf of the Labour group in wishing well to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the British Government today. Hours of painstaking preparation have gone into this occasion and I hope that everybody on all sides will respond carefully to the total package and the total document with generosity and that there will not be any quick responses without due thought. This is a day of hope and a day for the future. We hope it will go well for them.

Mr. Roche

Like other speakers I, too, wish to note the importance of this day and to wish all concerned success. Hopefully, it will be a very fruitful day and will bring almost 800 years of extraordinary relationships between two neighbouring islands closer to the peace and tranquillity which should exist between neighbours.

I do not wish to question your ruling on the matter relating to Clonmallon, a Chathaoirligh, because I know that you and your office have given generous consideration to this. I accept that your hands are tied on this and that there is nothing you can do. I have discussed the matter with your office. We are all concerned on all sides of the House. Is there a device whereby I could raise this matter by way of statement at the end of business tonight?

An Cathaoirleach

I am glad the Senator is not in any way challenging my ruling, because it is a precedent of great standing in this House that that position would continue. I am prepared at any time during the day to discuss how he may raise this matter, but at this time I have ruled that it is unsuitable for discussion.

Mr. Roche

Could I use the device of raising it by way of a statement of concern at the end of business tonight?

An Cathaoirleach

Give me notice during the day, Senator.

Mr. Wilson

I join with the other Members in wishing both the Taoiseach and the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Mr. Major well in their statement, and settlement proposals which, I understand, are to be announced today at midday. We have been very wise here not to make any prejudgment on the matter. Tomorrow, when we know what is in the declaration, it would be good that this House would discuss it. I therefore ask the Leader if he could give us even half an hour, not at 11.30 p.m. tomorrow but first thing tomorrow morning when we sit, to make a judgment and an offer of support or to allow us to express our opinions.

Mr. Sherlock

I rise to join with the others in wishing the leaders of both Governments well in their deliberations in finding a solution to the problem in Northern Ireland, the outcome of which will be vitally important for this island of Ireland. Because of the dialogue which has gone on for such a long time one would be hopeful that there will be a solution to the problem.

Mr. Magner

In relation to what Senator Manning said, this process, if it comes about this afternoon, has been the result of much work by many people, not least the non-partisan approach of the Opposition, which has been a very important ingredient in this State in getting agreement. We should mark that. I also wish to mark the fact that progress is also due to the patience of Mr. Garrett Fitzgerald who teased out the situation to the point we are at today. It was his patience in dealing with somebody whom I am not a great admirer of that brought us to this stage. I am delighted that the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste have brought the process thus far, but it is also fitting that we mention those who went before them, those who built brick upon brick in a process, the result of which, hopefully, we will see this afternoon.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

I wish to join with Senator Wilson in requesting time tomorrow morning to discuss the details of this declaration and to wish the Taoiseach and Mr. Major every success in the very serious task upon which they are embarking today. I join also with Senator Manning in relation to finding out the precise details of the circumstances in which the Government refused President Robinson to accept the offer from the United Nations. I wish to find out in the constitutional and legal detail on which this matter was decided.

There is another matter, a Chathaoirligh, which Senator Quinn referred to earlier. It is in regard to the relevance of this House and the question of rubber stamping. This House is part of the Oireachtas, one of three component parts under the Constitution. It is very important that all Members of this House recognise that and do nothing to diminish the status of the Seanad. I am concerned that it is proposed to reschedule our business tomorrow to accommodate the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs to hear Mr. Arafat in this Chamber. I disagree with that, a Chathaoirligh——

An Cathaoirleach

That is totally irrelevant to the Order of Business for today.

Mrs. Taylor-Quinn

It is important that we, as Members of this House, make this House relevant and not in any way diminish its status by rescheduling our business to accommodate——

An Cathaoirleach

Senator, you are out of order. The Committee on Procedures and Privileges made the decision and that is that.

Mr. Maloney

I also wish the Tánaiste and the Taoiseach well in their discussions with the British Government this morning, and I hope a means to peace will come out of them. The meeting Senator Quinn organised for 12 p.m. today is timely and as many people as possible should attend because, as a northerner, I feel sometimes that we in the South do not know enough about the North. This is a unique opportunity to listen to somebody from what one would call "the other side of the fence." I also welcome the announcement yesterday by the Minister for Justice, Deputy Geoghegan-Quinn, in her efforts to tackle crime and drugs. I hope this House will have an opportunity shortly to discuss both issues.

Mr. Mooney

I am sure my friend Senator Magner and my distinguished colleague, Senator Manning, will not accuse me of being partisan if I put on the record of the House, in the context of their remarks about the process currently underway in London, that the person who conceived the idea of the totality of relationships, as far back as 1981, was the former Taoiseach, Mr. Haughey. It should be acknowledged that he commenced the process.

Mr. Wright

As the Taoiseach did yesterday in the Dáil, I would like to recognise the support this peace process has received from all parties. With regard to an opportunity to comment on any statement or press conference that might take place, the Whips will have a discussion on that tomorrow morning. As regards all Stages of Bills being taken in one day, many of us have to live with circumstances whereby, at the end of each term, various legislation has to be dealt with by certain deadlines. In this session it is the first time we have dealt with all Stages in such a way. It is not something I want to present to the House or to the Chief Whip, but there are times when legislation has to be dealt with by a certain deadline. If the House so requires, a short break can be arranged between Second Stage and Committee Stage of the Bill. There will be a sos between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. and the Adjournment Matters will be taken at the conclusion of business.

Order of Business agreed to.