Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Apr 1995

Vol. 142 No. 14

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

I apologise to Members who were inconvenienced by not being informed about the change in today's sitting time. I made attempts to inform people but I did not do so sufficiently widely. The time was changed in an attempt to measure the day in accordance with the business ordered. We might discuss future timing at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges.

Today's Order of Business is the Committee Stage of item 1, and item 10 — No. 18, Fine Gael's Private Members' motion. There will be a sos of about half an hour. Because we started at 12 o'clock the Whips can decide when the sos will be.

Mr. Wright

We agree the Order of Business. I ask the Leader to let it be known that the House commends yesterday's successful Garda operation in my constituency when guns and arms were apprehended. However, one would have to be greatly concerned about the intentions of those who had those arms and guns. I ask that, after the Easter recess, we be given a chance to discuss the report on the violence at Lansdowne Road.

Mr. O'Toole

About now, if somebody has not intervened in the meantime, a prisoner in the United States is being executed. In this country we have a record of moving away from the death penalty and we have discussed it in the House. I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister for Foreign Affairs the need for this country to participate actively in the Amnesty International campaign to outlaw capital punishment.

When the executioner throws the switch, the prisoner cringes in torture. His flesh swells and his skin stretches. His tongue swells and, in some cases, his eyeballs pop out. His flesh is burnt and smells of cooked meat. When the autopsy is performed, his liver is so hot that it cannot be touched by the human hand.

It is horrific to think that this is going on in this day and age. We have many times discussed what is horrific in various aspects of human life. I ask the Leader to bring to the attention of the Minister for Foreign Affairs the need for us as a developed country to participate actively in the worldwide campaign of Amnesty International to outlaw capital punishment.

Mr. Dardis

I strongly support the sentiments expressed by Senator O'Toole on what is barbarism by any standards. I welcome the report on the incident in Lansdowne Road and the speed with which it has been published. I note that there is a proposal for a committee to deal with aspects of the report. Could I ask the Leader if we are forming yet another committee, or is this work for an existing committee? Does he expect that there will be legislation to deal with the specific matter of the exclusion of known hooligans from football grounds?

Mr. Daly

Yesterday I endeavoured to ascertain from the Leader if he could ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to make a statement here about the critical situation in Aerospace where over 700 jobs are threatened. If this was happening in Dublin there would be widespread public debate about the matter. However, it is scarcely being mentioned, even in the media. Could the Minister for Enterprise and Employment come to the House and give us some information about the current situation there and the future prospects for that industry?

Mr. Magner

I concur with the point raised by Senator O'Toole. The record of the Tánaiste and leader of the Labour Party has been entirely consistent. He has, from my certain knowledge, from his entry into politics condemned the principle of capital punishment either here or abroad. I am quite sure that he would concur completely with the remarks of Senators O'Toole and Dardis. It is barbaric and should have no place whatsoever in civilised or, indeed, uncivilised societies.

The Finlay report on the rioting in Lansdowne Road is an ideal topic for measured debate in this House. Members will recall that we had a brief number of interventions the morning after the Lansdowne Road débâcle. I was critical then — and I am glad to see that it has been borne out — not of the gardaí, whom I praised for their bravery, but of senior Garda management who acted, or did not act, in a manner which aggravated the situation. I ask the Leader to institute, if possible, a debate in this House on that report and on violence in general at sporting events.

Mr. Norris

I support the comments of Senator O'Toole on the carrying out of the death penalty today in the United States of America. The circumstances are quite horrific. If one analyses those sentenced to death in the United States, one finds that they are usually men of low intelligence from a poor economic background and black. There is a highly discriminatory element in the application of the death penalty. It is curious to note that in the Pope's most recent pronouncement while he talks about the culture of death, he still allows for the application of the death penalty. I find that extremely regrettable from a source which is so consistent in opposing what he describes as the "culture of death".

Many people find very disturbing the degree of bullying which appears to be carried out, in particular the case in Waterford. Could the Leader of the House suggest when we could have a debate on this issue, perhaps in the context of the specific case of a family in Waterford who have been terrorised out of their homes as a result of very vicious attacks on an 11 year old schoolboy? That is not acceptable in this country and we should all, as a community, be ashamed.

Ms Honan

I welcome the publication of the report of the expert committee on hepatitis C which was launched by the Minister at 12 p.m. today. Could the Leader make time available soon after our resumption after Easter to discuss the report in the House?

Mr. Farrell

Could the Leader ask the Minister for Justice to address the House on the subject of crime, which has reached an all time high. Elderly women have been robbed in chapels and on their way to Mass in the morning. It is time that we did something about that and we need to discuss it in this House. In certain parts of Dublin motorists are being robbed and their windscreens smashed. Those no go areas in the heart of the city were highlighted by Gay Byrne on his morning radio programme.

I support Senator Norris' call for a debate on school bullying. It is terrible that a family has to leave the country because the whole family is now being bullied, their windows have been broken and their house damaged. Law and order has completely broken down when people cannot live in peace. It will be very bad for tourism and so on if we allow this to happen. An ambassador's wife was mugged in the heart of the city outside the National Concert Hall the other day and had to receive medical treatment.

An Cathaoirleach

There will be an opportunity——

Mr. Norris

On the south side of the city.

Mr. Farrell

It is time that something was done about it and we should have a debate on those two subjects.

Mr. Wilson

I support what Senator Wright said regarding the arrest yesterday of four alleged INLA members, together with a large quantity of ammunition, in or around Balbriggan. I offer my congratulations to the Garda on a job which appears to have been very well done. The mind boggles as to what would have happened to the peace process if those men and that ammunition had crossed the Border. As a result of yesterday's arrest, I ask the Leader once again — and I know that it is at the top of his agenda — to make time available to discuss again the peace process and Northern Ireland.

Mr. Finneran

I support the call by Senator Wilson for a debate on Northern Ireland. It is generally felt that there is a slowing down, to some extent, and a debate in this House would be fruitful and helpful at this time.

With regard to item 12 on the Order Paper, the proposal that the Minister for Health would publish the White Paper on mental illness and the care of the mentally ill. I know that the Leader said recently that he would have a debate on health in the House. However, unless the White Paper is published, the debate will be in the dark as regards that issue. The House must be aware that the legislation under which the mentally ill are cared for at the moment is 50 years old. Many parts of that legislation are no longer effective and are being breached every day. If that White Paper was published we could have a constructive and informed debate on suitable legislation, structures and regulations for the care of the mentally ill in the next decade or two.

Mr. Cosgrave

I support the comments made by Senators Wright and Wilson on the achievements of the Garda. I hope that the necessary resources will be made available. It is a matter which we will be discussing later in relation to their intelligence gathering network. Despite the ceasefire and so on, the fight against criminals goes on.

The insurance ombudsman published a report some weeks ago. Could time be made available early in the next session for a debate on this important report? The insurance industry covers a wide variety of aspects of life, including, as was mentioned, the violence in Lansdowne Road.

With regard to the ongoing difficulties faced by some charities in view of the national lottery absorbing so much expenditure, will the Leader of the House arrange time for a debate on this issue?

Mr. Manning

I join with Senator Wright in his commendation of the Garda. It is worrying that in spite of the ceasefire there is one group which refuses to accept it and is still heavily armed. The capture of the arms haul yesterday is a tribute to the bravery of the Garda and good intelligence. It is something which we all commend.

The Finlay report was mentioned by a number of Senators. I attempted to arrange for the report to be discussed today in the House by exchanging the Fine Gael Private Members' Business this evening for a debate. However, the Cabinet has taken a decision that the report be referred to the Select Committee on Legislation and Security. As this is a committee of the other House only, it would be the wish of Members of this House that a debate take place on the report and I will endeavour to arrange this as soon as possible.

Senator O'Toole's description of the death penalty was graphic, gruesome and appalling, but it gives us an opportunity to note that in this House and the other House there is unanimity in our abhorrence of the death penalty. I was a Member of the House for the first time when the final vestige of the death penalty — hanging — was removed from our Statute Book. It is important, therefore, that the feelings of Members on all sides of the House is noted.

Senator Dardis mentioned the Finlay report, which I have addressed. We will return to this issue.

Mr. Dardis

Is there any legislation promised?

Mr. Manning

I am not aware of any promised legislation arising from the report, but I will make inquiries on this matter. I referred Senator Daly's inquiry yesterday to the Minister. Negotiations and discussions are at a very delicate stage. Matters are not unhopeful and a debate at this stage may not be helpful. However, the Minister will attend the House as soon as he has something definite to report and the Senator's concern was noted.

Senator Magner mentioned the issue of capital punishment, which I have already addressed. The question of bullying is important and it can be addressed in the open ended debate on education which will take place — as I advised Senator O'Toole yesterday — early next month after the publication of the White Paper.

Mr. O'Toole

The bullying case in question did not take place in the school.

Mr. Manning

That point is noted.

Mr. Magner

The Senator cannot always protect his members.

Mr. Manning

With regard to the issue of the report on hepatitis C, mentioned by Senator Honan, I raised it with the Minister and he will attend the House shortly after Easter to discuss it and any other issues. Senator Finneran raised the wider question of health and it is time to have a full debate on the health services. I will see how it can be organised.

With regard to the point raised by Senator Farrell, the Minister for Justice will be in the House all day and there will be a debate on drugs this evening. If the Senator has concerns regarding crime he can raise them on that debate, as he has been known to be inventive on such occasions in making his point.

Senator Wilson and Senator Finneran raised the question of a debate on Northern Ireland. The Minister for Foreign Affairs has indicated that he will attend the House after Easter. He was invited to attend to discuss issues which are more properly concerned with questions raised by Senator McGowan on cross border co-operation, development and so on, but it may be possible to broaden this into a full debate on Northern Ireland.

Senator Cosgrave raised a number of important issues. The report of the insurance ombudsman and the whole question of insurance is worth considering. I am aware, a Chathaoirligh, that when you were Leader of the House you arranged a number of debates on this issue——

An Cathaoirleach

I read the report of the insurance ombudsman and it is very interesting.

Mr. Manning

With that commendation, I will attempt to arrange a debate on it. The question of charities was raised by Senator Cosgrave. A number of well established and worthwhile charities are facing enormous problems and there is a danger that the national lottery is swamping many of them. The concern of Members of the House and of those involved in these charities should be given an opportunity to be expressed.

For the information of Members, a number of Seanad Bills will be introduced in the next session. The first of these will be the European Communities Bill, which I understand will be taken on the first or second day of the next session, and the report on science and technology — item 8 on the Order Paper — will be debated on the second day, a Thursday. I am attempting, out of deference to Senator Bohan. to have the Road Traffic Bill introduced in the House and am hopeful this will be the case. In addition, the preparation of the Arterial Drainage Bill, which is a Seanad Bill, is on course, in line with commitments given to the House.

Order of Business agreed to.

Mr. Manning

The Minister for Justice has been unavoidably detained, but she will be in attendance shortly.

Sitting suspended at 12.25 p.m. and resumed at 12.35 p.m.