Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 6 Apr 1995

Vol. 142 No. 15

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

It is proposed to take item 1, and there will be a sos. As to the conclusion of business today, with the permission of the House, I will consult with the Whips during the day. If Committee Stage looks like finishing at a reasonable time, we will try to finish it today; if not, we will try to conclude at the normal Thursday concluding time. I will talk to the Whips during the day about that.

I can confirm to the House that the Road Traffic Bill, 1995, which was published last night as a Seanad Bill, will be taken here in the first week in May. In the last week of April we will be taking a European Communities (Amendment) Bill, which is also a Seanad Bill.

An Cathaoirleach

Is the sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.?

Mr. Manning

Yes.

Mr. Wright

The Order of Business is agreed to. As the day goes on we will discuss what progress we are making with the Bill.

The Leader was asked yesterday about the possibility of the Minister for Health coming to the House in relation to the blood bank report. I wonder what progress the Leader has made on that. I understand the Minister is to make a statement in the Dáil today, so perhaps it would be possible for him to afford some time to this House to hear his views. If that is not possible then perhaps he can address the House as soon as possible after the Easter recess.

I am absolutely amazed that last night's "Oireachtas Report" did not refer to the day's business in the Seanad, which in any terms was important. It included the Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995, which was initiated in this House, and a debate on drugs, which is probably the number one issue in many of our cities. Yet not one comment on the Seanad was made in "Oireachtas Report". It is something that the Leader should take up.

Mr. O'Toole

I support the last point. It seems extraordinary that a Bill that was initiated in the Seanad — and had more changes accepted by the House in two hours than I have seen in many years — did not feature at all. I believe that it was just an error. I cannot believe that it was a deliberate policy, but it should be checked out.

Mr. Dardis

It is a matter of continual disappointment that when it comes to reporting the House, we only seem to get coverage when we misbehave and cause a row.

Mr. Wright

That is right.

Mr. Dardis

That is very regrettable. The report of the Science, Technology and Innovation Council, which is a very important document, was circulated this morning. This area has been badly neglected in this country. Would the Leader make time available after the recess so that we can consider that report?

My other point is in regard to the European Commission's findings on agriculture in its broadest terms. We read today that, having come from a figure of £70 million, it now appears that penalties of up to £100 million may be involved. I have read repeatedly over the last week that there is optimism in Government circles that it may successfully contest these amounts. I would like to know the basis for that optimism. This is an important matter and time should be made available to discuss it. We need to hear from the Minister why he believes it is the case that these sums will be reduced and what he proposes to do to ensure that these moneys do not fall to be paid by the Irish taxpayer but by the people responsible for these irregularities.

Mr. Daly

Would it be possible, even today, for the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to give us some indication of developments at Shannon Aerospace? The Leader will be aware that the Minister met with SIPTU yesterday and that discussions are currently taking place. This is a very serious issue with over 700 jobs at stake. It might be possible to get the Minister here sometime today to give us some indication of the Government's view in this regard.

I also ask the Leader — I am sure his attention has been drawn to a statement by his colleague, John Cushnahan MEP, on Mullaghmore — to support his colleague's sensible statement and draw the attention of the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht to this matter. They give this as Fine Gael policy.

Mr. Neville

I support the previous speaker in regard to the absence of any mention of the House in "Oireachtas Report" last night concerning the debate on the Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995. This was one of the best Committee Stage debates we have had for any Bill and excellent amendments were presented by Fianna Fáil, Progressive Democrat and Independent Senators. The Minister was very positive on this, took them on board and improved the Bill as a result of this debate. However, no mention whatsoever was made of this debate on that programme last night. I ask the Leader of the House if there are any plans to reorganise the broadcasting committee which was in place during the previous Dáil?

Mr. Roche

This will be the seventh occasion that I have mentioned the issue of the 1996 intergovernmental conference, particularly the Western European Union and Ireland's position on it. Could we have a specific debate after Easter on this issue? It seems that the media and both Houses of the Oireachtas are ignoring this very serious issue. I fear that mandarins in the Department of Foreign Affairs will have our policy on this matter set before we go into the intergovernmental conference and enter the debate on the implications of the Western European Union for Ireland. I again ask for a debate on this issue. The views of one of our MEPs on this took up some considerable space in the national media.

Could time be made available early after the break to discuss the savage cutbacks in FÁS? Many schemes are suffering very badly at the moment. I know of one scheme that involves looking after people in very depressed areas of the city and that will be affected. Members of all sides of the House would hope for a solution. It is an occasional issue, a budgetary issue within FÁS, and there seems to be a breakdown there. It is a regular occurrence that happens not only under this but under every Government and we need to address it.

I support Senator Daly's statement on Mullaghmore. It would be a good idea if we could have a discussion in this House on the aftermath not just of the Mullaghmore decision but of the decision to abort or effectively abandon the attempt to put a national park headquarters in Roundwood. That was not a controversial issue. I know that the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht shares my personal view that the Office of Public Works did not press that issue with anything like the vigour one would have expected it to have done. The aftermath of the decisions on the interpretative centres should be discussed, but I would specifically like to see time made available to discuss setting up a national park headquarters for the Wicklow National Park. It is crazy to have a national park without one.

Would the Leader of the House join me in welcoming the outbreak of sanity among the Irish Green Party MEPs in deciding to reject the lunacy of the motion attacking the funding of Euro-route 1?

Mr. Howard

I support the concern that certain Members have expressed with regard to the reporting of the House on "Oireachtas Report", but I want to raise with the Members and the Leader what I regard as a more fundamental attack on the dignity and integrity of this House. I have just received an expenses cheque. I was refused payment for one Thursday night because the House ceased its business at 4.35 p.m.

An Cathaoirleach

In fairness, Senator Howard, this matter has been mentioned to me by other Senators. I would not like to discuss this on the Order of Business because I do not think it is appropriate. It is far more appropriate to discuss it at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and I ask you to accept my wisdom on that matter in good faith.

Mr. Howard

All right, but may I approach it from another side?

An Cathaoirleach

I would prefer it if you did not approach it from any side because it is not appropriate to the business of this House. It certainly can be examined by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and it will be meeting shortly.

Mr. Howard

I am asking for that. I reinforce that point — I will not refer to expenses here — by saying that we are here as parliamentarians. We have a constitutional duty to perform here and that is not subject to the goodwill or restraints of any official, no matter how important they may be. If we, as parliamentarians, refuse to defend our constitutional position against that type of attack, it will be the beginning of the erosion of parliamentary democracy.

An Cathaoirleach

This House has excellent Members on the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I am sure that if you speak to them, they will gladly take up this matter.

Mr. Lanigan

I was going to refer to the point raised by Senator Roche about the cutbacks in FÁS, especially in the SES schemes. There is no doubt that thousands of very essential jobs and work will be lost because of these cutbacks.

Remarks have been made about fines on Ireland and I take issue with them. We have been asked here whether our taxpayers will have to pay £75 million or £100 million because of problems with our beef industry in the past. However, these figures have not yet been resolved. If one asked the people in Brussels what the final figure might be, it could turn our to be as low as £25 million. No figure has yet been set.

Mr. Dardis

That is the object of the exercise.

Mr. Lanigan

The Commission is sitting and has not made any decision yet. There are always attacks on Ireland from inside the country. Six other member states, including Britain and Italy, are under investigation for possible overspending or problems with the intervention scheme. We seem to have a death wish in this country. People from other countries ask me "Why do you mention these things?". This is happening and it is——

(Interruptions.)

Mr. Lanigan

——up to the EU Commission to dictate why we should kick ourselves before it does.

Mr. O'Toole

So we might kick the people who deserve to be kicked.

Mr. Lanigan

I ask the Leader to ask the Members in this House to restrain themselves until such time as we are fined.

Mr. Dardis

We are showing more restraint than the Senator.

Mr. Lanigan

Members should stop making statements on £100 million.

Mr. Dardis

I only asked for an explanation. That is reasonable.

Mr. Lanigan

I ask the Leader to ask the Senators to have restraint.

Ms Honan

I agree with the Senators who objected to the fact that yesterday's proceedings in the Seanad were not reported on "Oireachtas Report". The benefits of introducing Bills in the Seanad was obvious here yesterday and, as someone who was here all day, I was very disappointed that nothing was reported.

Like Senator Wright, I also call for the Minister for Health to come in here today and make a statement on the hepatitis C report. The sense of shock and outrage we all felt on reading it, particularly the women infected, needs to be talked about today. I do not think we can wait until after Easter.

What is this country doing, with the international community, to aid the judicial system in Rwanda? I listened to reports on the radio this morning and also to two women, one of whom was from Rwanda, who came to meet the Minister for Justice recently. It is essential that this country comes immediately to the aid of the judicial system in Rwanda so the healing process can begin in that country and they can hope that some normality will return. We and the international community owe it to them and, as a country, we should be leading by example.

Mr. Lydon

I support the call made by other Senators for a debate on the report of the expert group on the blood transfusion service. Before I came in here this morning I interviewed one of the ladies who was affected by this. She was terrified at the time, and rightly so, but she was also very angry at something that should never have happened. We should have a debate on it and I welcome the call for the Minister to come in and explain it. It is horrific when one considers that this is an infection which affects this women's whole family. We must ensure that this sort of thing never happens again. The complexities are mind boggling. The effect on the lady is unbelievable. When one talks with a woman who is affected, one realises how important this is. I support the call from other Senators that a statement be made.

Mr. Enright

I raised the issue of Burundi last Tuesday. I agree with Senator Honan about the situation there. At present there are roughly 750,000 refugees in Tanzania and a further two million people are looking to enter Tanzania in the near future. It is an impossible situation. We have relations with that country and it is a matter which we should discuss in this House at the earliest possible opportunity.

"Oireachtas Report" has been mentioned. I go along with everything that has been said this morning about the failure to make any reference to yesterday's debate. I will go a stage further. I believe that the time at which it is shown in the evening is far too late. It is after 11.30 p.m. most nights and many people have gone to bed at that stage.

Mr. Daly

They have switched on Sky Movies at that stage.

Mr. Enright

I genuinely feel that it should be shown at some time around——

An Cathaoirleach

I am sure the Leader will respond.

Mr. Enright

There should be an effort to change the time.

Many years ago this country took a decision to abolish capital punishment. It is barbaric that the State should execute any person in the name of the people of a country. A British citizen will be executed in Georgia presently. As a country, we should express our abhorrence at what is happening. I do not know whether you, a Chathaoirligh, or the Leader have the power to——

An Cathaoirleach

It was raised yesterday.

Mr. Enright

Our condemnation of this execution should be made public and known beyond Ireland.

Mr. Manning

A number of points were raised. I think everybody in this House was shocked by the findings of the report on the blood transfusion services. We can be gratified that the committee was set up and the investigation took place. It appears to be a full, frank and honest investigation and action has been taken speedily. In one sense it was a lesson on how public business should be conducted. The way in which the report was done and its aftermath reflects well on all concerned. I spoke to the Minister yesterday about a debate. He is in the other House today and thinks it would be better to wait until after Easter when we could have a reflective rather than an immediate response. That would also be my view. The House may feel strongly that it would like statements today but I suspect it is better to have some reflection.

I did not see "Oireachtas Report" last night. I am absolutely shocked that there was no mention of our business at all yesterday. The Committee Stage debate on the Criminal Law (Incest Proceedings) (No. 2) Bill, 1995, was, to my mind, one of the best pieces of parliamentary work I have seen in my time in this House because the House was actually involved in making legislation. The Minister came in with an open mind. She listened to what had been said on Second Stage and was prepared to take amendments from all parts of the House and incorporate them in the Bill and to come back on Report Stage. It is one of the best examples I have seen of this House having a serious and significant input to legislation.

Mr. O'Toole

Of either House.

Mr. Manning

Indeed. I am shocked that this was not featured on "Oireachtas Report" yesterday. I undertake on behalf of the House to contact the producer of that programme immediately after the Order of Business and I will try to report back today on any reason given. I am also surprised that the debate on the drug problem, which is totally and utterly topical at present, did not feature either. I undertake to come back to the House today with a report on that.

Senator Dardis raised the report on science and technology. That will be debated here on the morning of Thursday, 27 April. Other people raised the question of misdemeanours in the world of agriculture. I am as baffled and as angry, as most people are, about the persistent reports. I will ask the Minister for Agriculture if he will come in and tell the House the story as it appears from where he is sitting at present.

Senator Daly raised the question of Shannon Aerospace. I spoke to the Minister yesterday. The negotiations are ongoing and the Minister would prefer not to speak publicly while that is the case. I thank the Senator for that slow bouncer he bowled me on the other question.

Mr. Daly

It was a very important statement from Mr. Cushnahan.

Mr. Manning

I do not agree with Mr. Cushnahan

Mrs. McGennis

Rifts.

Mr. Manning

It is reasonable of Senator Roche to ask for a debate on future defence policy. The Department of Foreign Affairs has been holding seminars all over the country so there is no reason why we should not have something similar. I will see if it can be done.

Mr. O'Toole

One could be held in Wicklow.

Mr. Manning

Senator Howard's matter is being discussed by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. As the Cathaoirleach said, the death penalty issue was covered fairly fully yesterday and the views of all parts of the House were made known.

Order of Business agreed to.