Before calling the Leader of the House, I wish to state that the Order of Business has become somewhat unwieldy over the last number of weeks. I appeal to Senators to limit their contributions to matters which are relevant to the Order of Business and not to make speeches. As I have explained previously on many occasions, I do not mind a short explanatory contribution but I do not want speeches. At all times, Senators' contributions should take the format of a question to the Leader of the House. I appeal to Senators to observe these points.
Order of Business.
Before I announce today's Order of Business, I wish to inform the House that the Arterial Drainage Bill, which was discussed at some length last week, was cleared by Government yesterday. It is being printed at present and should be available to Members later today or first thing tomorrow morning.
Congratulations, Senator Daly.
Will a cheque come with it?
Senator Daly's contribution to the Bill is well acknowledged. In accordance with the expressed wishes of the House that the Bill be treated as a matter of urgency, the House will sit on Tuesday next week to take Second Stage. I hope that as much time as is needed will be afforded next week to see the Bill safely to the Lower House.
In answer to a request that is frequently made from all sides of this House, I hope we will be able to express our views on matters of current interest before they are decided upon. In keeping with that aspiration, I had hoped we could have had a discussion today on the current controversy about the future of the newspaper industry. Unfortunately, however, because adequate notice was not given to the Opposition — and I greatly regret this — the Members opposite are unable to agree to time for such a debate today. They feel that more time is needed and I will try to rearrange that debate for next week. It is a pity that this House could not have had a full debate this week at a time when decisions could, perhaps, still have been influenced. I regret that the two-hour series of short statements on the future of the newspaper industry, which I had hoped to have on today's Order Paper, cannot now be taken.
It is proposed to take item 1, statements on the White Paper on Education, from now until 6 o'clock. There will be a sos from 6 o'clock to 7 o'clock and the sitting will then continue until 9 p.m.
The Order of Business is agreed to. This side of the House, and in particular my own party, will always be accommodating in relation to any new legislation. The Leader has outlined that due to a lack of notice it was not possible to deal with item 2 today. We hope, however, that tomorrow or next week it will be possible for him to reintroduce item 2, at which time we will accommodate him.
My party welcomes the fact that today, for the first time in 23 years, the British Government and Sinn Féin are holding talks. In view of this, can the Leader outline when we might have an opportunity of discussing Northern Ireland?
This House rightly condemns violence whenever and wherever it arises. The shooting last weekend at the home of a Garda inspector, in a neighbouring constituency to my own which the Leader will know well, should be condemned by this House out of hand. I sincerely hope that the Minister for Justice and the Government recognise, as recently stated by various Garda representatives, the need for further funding and the strengthening of laws. I hope the Leader will come back with a legislative programme because the list as outlined by the Leader recently does not, in my view, recognise the situation on the ground.
I welcome yesterday's statement by the Taoiseach, in Russia, about drugs in this country, and I hope the Government will ensure the necessary funding, resources and legislation to combat the problem.
Finally, I welcome the Leader's announcement that the Arterial Drainage Bill will be dealt with early next week.
The Independent Senators have a clear record of cooperating in a most flexible way with any changes required by the Government and I cannot recall any occasion on which the Independent group has refused to co-operate with any change. In this situation, all that happened was that Members of the House arrived without knowing that a change was about to be made. That was the only difficulty we faced and it should not be interpreted as saying that it is not a good idea to have a debate on the newspaper competition report. When that question was put to me over the weekend I agreed that it would be a good idea. The fact is that Members of the Independent group had not been informed of it and I was not aware of that until today. That is simply the difficulty that arose, no more than that. At the beginning we had a clear understanding that we would know the business that was going to be discussed so that people could prepare themselves to deal with it. Nothing more is involved than the normal organisation of business and time. I look forward to an early debate on this crucial issue.
I understand there is no Private Members' time today because of an agreement between the Opposition party and the Government to allow discussion of the White Paper. It is wise to allow a long discussion on the White Paper but, unfortunately, that changes the rota and reduces the amount of time for Private Members' Business. I have reservations about this. If we cancel Private Members' time, that time should be——
We will not solve that matter now. Perhaps the Senator could raise it at the Committee on Procedure and Privileges. I understand his point.
I cannot think of a more appropriate place than the Order of Business.
The Committee on Procedure and Privileges might be a more appropriate place. The Order of Business is not suitable.
I accept your ruling, a Chathaoirligh. To finish on a positive note, I am glad the Arterial Drainage Bill is coming before us next week. I am also grateful that the discussion on the White Paper is being initiated today.
I would have been prepared to take item 2, statements on the newspaper industry, this afternoon. However, as a rule there should be adequate notice. We could debate at Committee on Procedure and Privileges what constitutes adequate notice but such notice should be given for matters of this nature. This is not quite in the same category as the matters of great and urgent public interest envisaged in Standing Orders.
I support the Leader of the Opposition's call for a debate on Northern Ireland. I asked for this last week and expressed the hope that events which had taken place in Derry would not have an effect on the talks taking place today in Stormont. We welcome those talks and hope they will lead to more progress in the peace process.
We recorded the 50th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz with statements. It would also be appropriate formally to record the 50th anniversary of the defeat of Nazism and the 15,000 Irish people who gave their lives in that conflict. If we cannot discuss that today at least we should remember it.
Finally, we should have a debate on agriculture because it is some time since we had one. I realise a motion is scheduled for next week on REPS and the control of farmyard pollution scheme but it is important that the Minister should come to the House to clarify the position on live exports. This is a matter of vital national interest. Many people's livelihoods would be affected by a ban on live exports and in the context of the European Single Market there should be free movement of goods——
You are making a speech, Senator.
I will refrain from doing so, a Chathaoirligh. We should also state that animals can be moved safely and humanely by sea transport.
On the same issue, I ask the Leader of the House if, as a matter of urgent national public importance, he could arrange for the Minister to come to the House so we can protest in the strongest possible way against the discrimination operated by the Pandoro and Stena Sealink shipping companies against the export of livestock. Such exports are done in accordance with both the Maastricht Treaty on European Union and the highest veterinary standards applied in any member state.
This is a matter of common cause among all of us and it is of huge importance because active discrimination is in operation. Livestock is being exported from this jurisdiction to Northern Ireland and through its ports to Europe. This is a huge burden on the Irish economy, its farmers and exporters. It is totally contrary to the provisions of the Maastricht Treaty. I am sure the Minister will endorse that view so we can present a common position——
A question to the Leader, please.
I ask him to arrange a debate on the matter. As a matter of courtesy to the Leader, I inform him that I have to leave the Chamber now but I will abide by the response he gives to my party leader. I have arranged to meet a deputation to discuss this issue.
I ask the Leader when the efficiency audit group report will be presented to both Houses of the Oireachtas. This document has been leaked in many places. The biggest problem is that it seems to go from the Army showjumping team to the bands, from barracks to efficiency and waste. The dogs in the street are talking about it and Members of the Oireachtas have not yet been able to discuss it.
They were talking about it last year too.
Senator Lanigan, without interruption. A question to the Leader, Senator. I appeal again for brevity.
As the Minister for Education will be in the House today, may I ask for a discussion on third level education before the review group reports to Government? Third level education is an important subject. Before the review group reports we should discuss the matter.
May I ask the Leader for a debate on pollution? Pollution levels were highlighted in the last two editions of The Sunday Times. The reports focused on certain aspects of pollution and the matter should be discussed. There are positive aspects to what is being done about pollution. However, the Minister for the Environment should come to the House for a discussion on the matters highlighted in those reports.
The Minister for the Environment should also be asked to come to the House to explain why Waterford is being cut off from the rest of the country as no money is being spent on the N9 or N7 routes. It is not possible to get from Carlow or Kilkenny to Waterford. We should have a discussion on those roads.
That is because of the reduction to £5.2 billion from the £8 billion announced in Edinburgh by Deputy Reynolds.
Waterford should not be cut off from the rest of the country. Kilkenny is involved. We cannot get the money from the Minister for the Environment.
If the Leader accedes to all the requests for debates we will be here for a long time.
I agree.
I will try to make it easy for him by asking for a broad debate on agriculture so that we may discuss the problems with the export of livestock, the farm pollution control grants and the REPS programmes. I ask the Leader to make time available for a broad debate on all the problems facing agriculture. Cutting the funding for the farm pollution control grants disqualifies people from the REPS programmes.
Many people have been worried recently about the community employment schemes. I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to explain the matter. There is much confusion about the schemes.
Exaggerated without doubt.
Many of these issues may be raised in Private Members' Time or as Adjournment Matters.
There is widespread confusion and if the Minister came to the House he could set it right.
The Labour Party, in common with other parties and individuals in the House, has always supported the idea not just of Seanad reform but also of making the House more relevant. Nobody tried as hard to do that as the leader of the Opposition, Senator Wright. While I understand his reluctance to have the debate on the newspaper industry, the House must agree that the action taken by the Leader helps to make the House more relevant and topical. This issue cannot be ignored for too long. At present we are looking at a newspaper industry which is increasingly becoming the instrument of one man or company.
Where is the question? That is a speech.
I decide when there is a speech. The Senator is making a little speech. A question to the Leader, please.
I was wrong in thinking that everybody shared my interest in democracy.
The Senator is not an Independent.
Senator Wright referred to the shooting at a Garda inspector's home, which we all deplore and which I understand was again drug related. While I agree with the State solicitor in Cork, Barry Galvin, I would welcome a drugs debate focusing on the role the Inland Revenue authorities can play in putting people behind bars. The Garda have already said they know the people involved. There are people in the city of Cork driving 500 series BMWs who have very big houses and enjoy a lifestyle far beyond that of some of the wealthiest people in the country.
Labour Party people.
This is a serious question. These people have no visible means of support. They can only be got at in the same way the American Government got at Al Capone and that is by bringing in the internal revenue people. The Leader should initiate a debate in this House on that specific problem.
Tell that to the Minister.
Maybe the Senators are not interested.
We are.
If not, I am directing my comments to the Leader. Obviously, the party opposite is one with many leaders. I am talking to one Leader at the moment about the drugs problem.
We have only one leader.
I ask the Leader to consider having a focused debate. It is difficult to get physical evidence as people are never caught with drugs. We have to focus on lifestyle.
I support the call by Senator Dardis that this House recognise the victory over Nazism. While we appreciate that the Government of the day and the then leader of my party, Eamon de Valera, kept the Irish people out of and saved them the trauma of the Second World War, many thousands of Irish people fought in that war. While some fought on the British side, many others fought with the Allied forces of the United States.
What is your question?
I support Senator Dardis's call for some recognition of victory over Nazism. It is no harm for people to remember what took place, because even though we were neutral, some of our people had an active part in it.
Would the Leader ask the Minister for Health to come in here or report to us on his view of the recent landmark decision by the court regarding a person who was incapacitated for many years? The court decided that artificial feeding of that person might not now——
Have you a specific question for the Leader? We are rambling all over the place and it is getting unwieldly again.
It is a bit like the Government.
There is nothing wrong with the Government.
I appealed for brevity.
My question to the Leader of the House is to ask the Minister for Health to come in here and make a statement. I understand he has refused to make a statement on this matter to date. It is a matter of public concern that the courts should take this decision. Where can this lead to?
The Senator is moving on to a speech at this stage. He has made his point and I am sure the Leader will reply.
He is taking over.
I support Senator O'Kennedy and Senator Kelleher. Today thousands of farmers from all over the country are protesting outside the gates of this House. They are in a very angry mood about two matters in particular. The first is the live export of their cattle which has been denied them and the other is the withdrawal of the hygiene grants.
What is your question? We have had this many times. I appeal to Members to be as brief as possible.
I support the call for the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry to come in here and explain why this Government is allowing the farmers to go to the wall on these two issues.
I ask the Leader for an opportunity to discuss the ongoing peace process in Northern Ireland. This is an ideal opportunity for such a discussion as the peace process takes another step forward today. I support Senator O'Kennedy and others who asked the Leader for time to be provided to discuss the ban by the ferry companies on the export of live cattle. We are an island country and we cannot afford this ban on all livestock exports. I urge the Leader to provide time to debate this as a matter of urgency. This ban is unjustified and should end immediately so our vital live export trade can be restored.
I support Senator Lanigan's request for the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin, to come to the House to explain why he has not given more money for the Carlow-Waterford road. I am sure that when he does come here to explain he will tell Kilkenny County Council to get its act together and to decide whether it wants the road to go through Kilkenny or Thomastown.
We have no problem with that.
I have always found the Leader accommodating, decent and efficient in ordering business. From the point of view of the Independent Senators, I would like to put it on the record that it is not a question of the validity of the issue — we recognise that — but of our responsibility to the House in that we would need to scan the report and prepare ourselves properly. It is not a question of bad faith on our part. I am sure we would always wish to co-operate with whatever Government is in power.
As regards commemoration of the war, I was troubled by the figures given by Senator Dardis because 150,000 killed would represent about 4 per cent, which is greater than the combined Protestant Churches in the country. Perhaps it was 150,000 who fought.
They were not all Protestants.
I believe the number is exaggerated and that approximately 10,000 died. I support Senator Finneran's request for a discussion on this momentous occasion, the end of the war. When he invoked the shade of the late President de Valera, I thought for one wonderful moment that he was going to suggest a memorial Mass for Adolf Hitler.
Senator Norris is mistaken again.
That frequently happens.
Unfortunately, Senator Norris is not able to read my mind.
I am not sure Senator Finneran is able to read it himself. Perhaps it would be possible for the Leader to provide time for a discussion on this issue.
I ask the Leader to confirm whether the Indonesian Ambassador will visit this country shortly for a meeting of the Association of South East Asian Nations. If my information is correct, will he ensure that the Ambassador, who is accredited to this country, is made fully aware of the feelings of this House and the people as regards the genocide in East Timor?
Would it be possible to have a discussion on the state of play in Packard Electric? We are concerned about the behaviour of management, who breached all good labour relations principles. If it is not possible, will the Leader communicate with the Minister for Enterprise and Employment——
This is appropriate for an Adjournment debate.
Thank you for your guidance, a Chathaoirligh. In the meantime while I am here——
How long are you in this House, Senator Norris?
Not long enough to get a full pension. Will the Leader make the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy R. Bruton, aware of our concern about the problems being inflicted on the unfortunate workforce in Packard Electric?
A freedom of information Bill is on the Order Paper in the name of Senator Roche. I do not want to discuss that in detail without his permission, but it is an important matter. I want to put on the record that the former Senator Brendan Ryan promoted such a Bill in this House in 1985. This afternoon he will launch a book——
No plugs for books. The "Late Late Show" is the place to do that.
——on freedom of information.
I support Senator Norris in relation to Packard Electric. Perhaps the Leader could ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Richard Bruton, to make a statement on the matter. The workers and management are greatly concerned about the situation. The Minister seems to have gone undercover. Perhaps he could make a statement in this House so as to allay fears about what is happening there at present.
In view of the different opinions among the Government parties as regards the proposed divorce referendum, perhaps the Leader could ask the Minister for Equality and Law Reform, Deputy Taylor, to come into this House to hear our views on the matter and to enable the Government parties to state their views in a more formal setting.
And have Deputy M. McDowell as spokesman.
I support the views expressed by Senator Magner in relation to drugs. I take this opportunity to congratulate the Garda Síochána and the Customs authorities in Shannon and the midwest region for seizing £3.5 million worth of drugs over the weekend. This consignment was earmarked for the midwest region. This indicates the huge problems, not only in Cork but also in the midwest. I understand the Minister for Justice, Deputy Owen, is currently drafting proposals in this regard. Perhaps she might come to the House to explain what is being done about this issue. I put on the record my congratulations to the enforcement agencies for seizing this huge haul in Shannon at the weekend.
I also welcome the announcement in relation to the Arterial Drainage Bill. I thank the Leader of the House for the attention he gave to this serious issue, which needs to be dealt with immediately.
I appreciate the enormous contribution which the community employment schemes have made to the Irish countryside; they have changed the face of rural Ireland. I commend the work of FÁS in this area over the past number of years.
A previous speaker mentioned the need for the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to discuss community employment schemes at present. I would like the Minister to address this situation, but in a different vein to the speaker on the opposite side of the House. Perhaps the Minister could try to change the situation created by the last Government which allowed oversubscription to the schemes and allocated insufficient finance to them for the current year. Perhaps the Minister——
The poor Minister.
That is a good excuse.
Senator McDonagh, without interruption.
——could try to redress the situation created by the former Government, which is causing problems for many community groups throughout the country.
I endorse what Senator O'Toole and Senator Norris said about the Order of Business today. We are not protesting against a debate on the report on competition, but about procedure and lack of notice. It is contrary to the style the Leader has adopted in the House, a continuance of Senator Wright's style. I hope this is a once-off situation because, as Senator Norris said, some of us would like time to scan the report. Some of us, contrary to debating convictions, would like time to read the report before contributing to the debate.
It is possible to do both.
Is the Leader in a position to confirm the accuracy of Senator Norris's correction of Senator Dardis in terms of the numbers who fought and died in the Second World War and the quality of the source for that statement? What we see in the media does not necessarily have anything to do with what happened historically.
Is that the difference between the Trinity Senators and everybody else?
I join with Senator Daly in complimenting the customs officials and the Garda Síochána on the recent capture of drugs at Shannon and on the tremendous work they have done in recent months in relation to drugs seizures throughout the country.
I join with other Senators in calling for some recognition by this House of the 10,000 Irish people who were killed in the Second World War while fighting in another army. We might use this opportunity to examine our role, or non-role, as a nation during this war and examine our conscience in relation to our inactivity at that time. The Government should be complimented for having a commemoration ceremony in Islandbridge last Friday week. It was the first time since the foundation of the State that the Government recognised these people.
I support the call by other Senators for a discussion on the problems arising from live exports. The Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry has taken specific action by laying down definite and defined guidelines. We are well advanced in relation to the rest of Europe in this area. A number of companies are acting contrary to European law. It is appropriate that this House be afforded an opportunity to discuss this matter and I ask the Leader to arrange it. The full rigours of European law should be brought to bear on the offending parties, namely the various shipping companies.
When does the Leader anticipate that the Occupiers' Liability Bill, which has been concluded in the Dáil, will come before the Seanad?
This is the most relevant question which has been asked on the Order of Business.
I support Senator Honan's call for the Minister for Equality and Law Reform to come to the House before the divorce debate and referendum and outline the way the Government intends to preserve the institution of marriage and the moneys it intends to devote to this by way of counselling, mediation and taxation. We know how it intends to dissolve marriages but perhaps it can help to preserve the institution of marriage which is a keystone of the State.
It is not sure itself by all accounts.
I join with Senator Wright in condemning the appalling attack on a brave policeman in Raheny at the weekend. It points out the enormity and extent of the forces involved in the drug business and all resources will have to be used against it.
I hope to have a debate very shortly on Northern Ireland. The Tánaiste has indicated his anxiety to have such a debate.
Senator O'Toole raised the question of Private Members' Business. I should have thanked the Leader of the Opposition at the outset for having agreed not to take Fianna Fáil's Private Members' Business this evening. I would say to Senator O'Toole that Private Members' Business has been significantly changed in recent months. The Opposition parties will lose no time but the Government parties will have less time. There will be no loss of time to those on the Opposition side because of this evening being used to have a fuller debate on the White Paper on education. Senator Dardis spoke about adequate notice. I telephoned his office last Friday and informed him that I proposed to change the arrangements for this evening. I hope we can have a discussion next week on the newspaper industry.
The Minister for Agriculture is keen to come to the House and at the first available opportunity he would like to have a wide ranging debate on the many issues raised. Senator Kelleher said we should have a full debate rather than discuss just one topic.
Senator Lanigan raised the question of defence. Those matters will be resolved shortly and will be submitted to the Government. The Minister for Defence indicated to me recently he would be happy to come to the House and have a wide ranging debate on the full report as soon as the outstanding issues have been clarified, which should be fairly soon. On the other question raised by Senator Lanigan, I do not know why anybody would want to leave Carlow or Kilkenny.
Only to get to Cork.
I will raise with the Minister for the Environment the isolation of Waterford and see if he can give a reply to that.
I thank Senator Magner for his intervention and I agree with what he said about drugs and the other issue. Senator Finneran raised two points. I agree with him and Senator Dardis on the question of paying tribute to the memory of those who fought against fascism in the Second World War. There was, as Senator Taylor-Quinn pointed out, a national ceremony in Islandbridge recently. I would be happy to arrange for a series of short statements on the subject in this House. With regard to the other question raised by Senator Finneran, I have no intention of asking the Minister for Health to come to the House to discuss the court judgment last week. I know the family involved and nobody would want to add to their anxiety by having a public debate on the matter. My view is that of the retired bishop, Dr. James Kavanagh, who said that with compassion we should support the court judgment.
Senator Norris asked a question about Indonesia. I do not know the answer but I will find out. There will be statements on foreign affairs in the House tomorrow and perhaps the Senator might raise the question then. The freedom of information Bill is a matter for Senator Roche. Senator Honan raised the question of divorce. All three parties in Government are totally committed to holding a referendum on divorce and are determined that its outcome will be successful. We know that in that we will have the full, constructive and open support of the Senator's party and of all parties in the House.
Senator Daly raised the question of drugs. I agree that the activities of the gardaí deserve the highest commendation. There have been major successes and all in this House join in the Senator's commendation. I also thank Senator Daly for his constructive help on the Arterial Drainage Bill. It is in great part a tribute to the Senator that the Bill will be before the House next week when we will have a full debate on it.
Senator Sherlock asked about the Occupiers' Liability Bill. The Dáil will conclude its consideration of it today and it should be before the Seanad in a matter of weeks.
The time limit for speakers on item 1 is 30 minutes. Is that agreed? Agreed.
Order of Business agreed to.