Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 22 Jun 1995

Vol. 144 No. 2

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Before I announce the Order of Business I wish to make a brief point. It has always been the practice of this House, during the term of the last Leader, Senator Wright and during my term as Leader, that Ministers are expected to treat it with courtesy. However, there is another side to this. Last evening a Minister was not treated with courtesy when a Senator who had been granted permission to raise a matter on the Adjournment did not turn up without notice, thus inconveniencing the Minister and his officials. We should not allow this to happen again.

It is proposed to take items 1 and 2. Item 1 is to be completed not later than 1 p.m. and speeches are not to be longer than 20 minutes. At 2 p.m. we will take all Stages of item 2. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.

Mr. Mullooly

On the first matter raised by the Leader, I also regret that the Senator who had been granted time to raise a matter on the Adjournment was not present in the House. I can assure the House that this was a complete oversight on the part of the Senator who very much regrets it and will convey her regrets to the Minister.

We agree to today's Order of Business as outlined by the Leader. I thank the Leader for providing our office yesterday with an outline of the proposed business for the remainder of this session. He has a heavy programme of work in mind. I hope it is not intended to take all Stages of all the Bills outlined in that programme before the end of the session. While I agree to taking all Stages of the Investment Intermediaries Bill today on the basis that it is non-controversial and that its early passage is desirable, the Leader has on many occasions in the past expressed reservations about rushing business through the House, particularly at the end of a session. I agree with the point made by the Leader and many other Senators in the past that there should be time for reflection between the Second and remaining Stages of Bills. I hope to have an opportunity to have further discussion with the Leader on his intentions for business before the end of the session.

I ask the Leader to ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to use every means at his disposal to bring about an early resolution of the Dunnes Stores dispute. If it drags on, it will have the most serious implications for hundreds of suppliers throughout the country and for jobs in these firms. I ask the Leader to convey to the Minister the serious concerns of Members about this dispute persisting.

Mr. Dardis

I support Senator Mullooly's point in respect of business between now and the end of the session. I thank the Leader for circulating the proposed business from now until then, which is useful to us. However, I remind him of what he said, when on this side, about legislation being rushed through and I am confident he will do everything to ensure this will not be the case and that we will have time to consider Bills, particularly between Second Stage and Committee and Report Stages. On the first day the Seanad met after the new Government took office, we took all Stages of a Bill. At the time we indicated to the Leader we accepted the circumstances but that in future we would be unhappy with this and he accepted that point.

Item 1 consists of a motion on the OECD Economic Survey of Ireland, 1995. It would be useful if we had read the document before debating it. I know from the history of the Seanad that not reading documents does not preclude us from commenting on them. Nevertheless, the Leader gave an undertaking yesterday that he would try to have the document supplied to us. Around 4 p.m. yesterday the conclusions but not the full document were circulated to us. This was satisfactory to some extent. In the context of the Minister for Education spending several hundred thousand pounds to circulate her picture in full colour around the country and the Minister of State at the Department of Transport, Energy and Communications, Deputy Stagg, appearing with the ESB bill, would the Leader not agree it is reasonable to expect that this document should have been circulated to all Members?

Mr. Townsend

I ask the Leader to raise two questions with the Minister for Social Welfare. The first concerns old age non-contributory pensions. A person who has £10,000 invested in the bank at around 2 per cent interest, which is the going rate, has an income from that investment of about £5 a week, but is assessed for the purposes of old age contributory pensions as earning £19.48 per week. This is a downside of the current low interest rates and means that such person would lose approximately £15 per week. Would the Leader point out to the Minister for Social Welfare that these people worked very hard, lived frugally all their lives, were not a burden on the State and saved some money for their old age, which they now find is a big disadvantage? Would the Leader make the Minister for Social Welfare aware of that?

My second question is in regard to those in receipt of social security pensions from Great Britain. I was approached last week by a person who got a cheque from the UK for £400 and the bank charged £18 to process the transaction. When there was a greater exchange rate difference between the punt and sterling, this scandal passed by unnoticed. However, now that the punt and sterling are almost at parity——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A question for the Leader.

Mr. Townsend

——it is quite noticeable that the banks are ripping these people off. It is outrageous to stop £18 out of a cheque for £400.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We cannot debate that matter here.

Mr. Townsend

Will the Leader make the Minister for Social Welfare aware of that fact and try to get something done about it?

Mr. Lanigan

I wish to follow up on the point which was raised by Senator Dardis. We spoke about discourtesy to the House this morning and the unavailability of the OECD report is a definite discourtesy to the House. Three copies of the report were placed in the Library but those copies have been borrowed and are not available to Senators for today's debate. Yesterday I asked somebody in the Department of Foreign Affairs to get me a copy of the report. He contacted the Department of Finance and was told that they could not supply a copy of the report and they sent a copy of the conclusions which were sent to Members.

If we are serious about the business of the House, the Minister for Finance and his officials should be serious about allowing us to have a debate here. It is absolutely disgraceful that they will not or cannot supply copies of the OECD report, which has major implications for every area of Irish society. I ask the Leader to convey the feelings of the House on this matter. Are we going to have to listen to the Minister's speech in order to decide on what parameters the conclusions of the report are based? If we do not know on what bases the conclusions were reached, we cannot have a meaningful debate here this morning; it is a farce.

Dr. Henry

Members on all sides of the House have often stressed the importance of promoting the arts in Ireland. Would the Leader ask the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht to congratulate Kathy Prendergast, who won the Venice Biennale prize for art in competition with 44 countries? That is an incredible achievement and should be noted as a great success for Ireland and not just a personal success for Ms Prendergast.

Mr. McGowan

Would the Leader arrange for a debate on the findings of the review of the Foyle Fisheries Commission? I feel that I have to labour these matters when I raise them in the Seanad, although not with the Leader of the House. When we discuss emotional matters and the troubles in the North, it is customary for a bandwagon to develop. The Foyle Fisheries Commission has been in existence for 50 years and it is the only structure which has been managed jointly. The two Governments commissioned a careful study of the complications and difficulties and quite useful recommendations are made in the report which is now available.

This House should be consistent in its concern and its contribution towards the functioning of business between the North and the South. This is the only body which is managed jointly. I ask the Leader to bring the Minister to the House so that we can make a constructive contribution towards the future of the Foyle Fisheries Commission.

Mr. Farrelly

I support the request to the Leader to ask the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to intervene in the Dunnes Stores dispute. This dispute is heading into its second week and will have devastating effects on many other jobs throughout the country. We appeal to the management to consider entering into negotiations, which will have to take place at the end of the day.

Mr. Finneran

The first item I wish to raise concerns the response of the Government to the flooding which occurred earlier this year. There were many debates on the issue here and it was raised many times here. Certain commitments were given and local authorities were asked to submit major plans for flooded roads — at their own cost, it now appears. There has been no response from the Minister for the Environment. Will the Leader ask the Minister when moneys will be paid out? I understand that some local authorities are going to have to put their staff on a three day week. The weather is fine now and the sun in high in the sky, but we cannot forget what happened between January and March of this year. The local authorities are strapped for cash and need a response from the Minister for the Environment as soon as possible.

Last night in this House the Minister of State at the Department of Justice made a statement which contradicted all other statements to date from the Government regarding the deferral of the Castlerea prison project and the women's prison project.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We cannot recap on a debate which took place last night.

Mr. Finneran

We can recap on the basis that it contradicts statements made, not alone in public but to a deputation where——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We cannot discuss yesterday's business.

Mr. Finneran

I ask the Leader of the House to clarify this matter because prior to last night we were told by the Minister——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

The Senator can put a very brief question to the Leader but we cannot discuss yesterday's business.

Mr. Finneran

I ask the Leader of the House to clarify the situation regarding the Government's statements prior to last night on the deferral of the Castlerea prison project and the women's prison project for Mountjoy. It clearly stated up to last night that it was deferred in 1995 and would be reviewed in 1996. Last night's statement said that it has been deferred beyond 1996.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

That matter was debated last night and we cannot go over the same ground again.

Mr. Finneran

This is a very serious matter. We cannot play cat and mouse with the people of Castlerea and Roscommon over this issue.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We cannot go over a debate which took place last night.

Mr. Finneran

They came here at their own expense last week——

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

It is certainly not a subject for the Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

——and were told that it would be reviewed in 1996. That was contradicted in the statement by the Minister of State last night.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Mr. Finneran

Will the Leader clarify for this House which statement is correct? Is it a fact that the deferral is for 1995 to be reviewed in 1996, or is it correct that it is deferred beyond 1996?

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

We cannot have a debate on that matter here and I will have to rule it out of order.

Mr. Daly

Many Members of the House have been contacted by university graduates who are unable to get places on higher diploma in education courses. The Minister for Education dealt somewhat with this matter last year when a similar situation arose and after her intervention some additional places were provided in the colleges. A substantial number cannot get places because of the method of selection used by the universities. A haphazard system of lotteries, or whatever, is used which does not distinguish between those who genuinely want the qualification in order to teach and those who pursue the course just to enhance their job opportunities but do not wish to teach.

An Leas-Chathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Mr. Daly

Could the Leader indicate if the Minister for Education will make a statement about what she proposed to do about this? It is causing much concern to parents and, in particular, young graduates.

Mr. Mooney

I ask the Leader of the House when it is intended to have a debate on the Green Paper on Broadcasting. How far advanced are the proposals of the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht, Deputy M. Higgins, in the legislative area? Will a Bill be published before the end of the year and will it be initiated in this House? Will the Leader establish whether the Minister has responded to the submission made by RTE to the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation? The comments made at that session two weeks ago relating to the extension of broadcasting into Northern Ireland by RTE received scant publicity, ironically from RTE. It is an important progression in establishing and harmonising relations between the two traditions on this island. In that context, it is an important suggestion and I would like to know if the Minister has, or will, make a response to that particular initiative.

Mr. Manning

In reply to Senator Mullooly and Senator Dardis, the document I circulated yesterday is not the final one. I wanted to give Senators an indication of the workload between now and the end of the session so they could order their business. Obviously, a final decision will be taken after consultation with all parties.

A number of Senators raised the question of Dunnes Store. I am not sure if any useful intervention can be made at this stage when one side to the dispute resolutely refuses to speak or to listen. It takes two sides to sit down and to talk. I do not believe the Government can do anything useful apart from putting pressure on to ensure that all the machinery available is used.

Senator Dardis and Senator Lanigan asked about the OECD report. I endeavoured to have copies of the report circulated to all Members, but that was not possible for reasons of costs. I was told that each party would receive a number of copies and I regret that did not happen. Senator Townsend raised a number of issues which I will convey to the Minister for Social Welfare, Proinsias De Rossa. I will also convey the message from Senator Henry.

Although I would like a debate on Foyle Fisheries, we will not be able to have one this session, but it will remain on the agenda. The debate I promised Senator McGowan on cross-Border aid will take place next week. Senator Finneran asked about flooding. The Minister of State at the Department of Finance, Deputy Coveney, will be in the House this afternoon and I will speak to him then to see if we can arrange statements or a short discussion on that subject. I will try to get clarification from the Minister of State on the future of Castlerea Prison.

I agree with Senator Daly that the situation as regards the higher diploma in education is unsatisfactory. I am not sure what the reason behind it is, but it is causing great difficulties. A number of Members will have received representations. I will speak to the Senator and I will endeavour to provide maybe a half an hour next week when the Minister for Education could come in and discuss the matter with us. Senator Mooney raised a number of questions on broadcasting to which I do not have the answer. The broadcasting committee will meet in the next couple of weeks. I have been told by the convenor that a meeting is scheduled for the near future.

Order of Business agreed to.