Vol. 146 No. 5
There was a small mistake on the Whip's notice which was issued last week. This indicated that business would cease tomorrow at 1 p.m. This is not correct as the Waste Management Bill, 1995, will be taken all day tomorrow.
It is proposed to take item 1 until 6 p.m. with a limit of 30 minutes per speaker and item 15, motion 27 from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m.
We agree with the proposed Order of Business and I thank the Leader for correcting the notice concerning tomorrow's business. Members on this side have asked for a debate and statements on Northern Ireland. After what Cardinal Daly termed "black Friday", I ask the Leader to provide time for the House to express its support for the Government's efforts to restore peace to this island. A great national effort is needed by all concerned to renew the peace process. If the Leader proposes that we have a debate or statements on Northern Ireland next week, my party would have no objection.
A Chathaoirligh, with the greatest deference I wish to correct something to which you referred. When outlining the matter I wished to raise on the Adjournment, you referred to an equine centre whereas this should have been an aquatic centre. If you are insistent on the equine element, I will attempt to include sea horses.
My apologies, Senator.
It was an easy mistake to make. I was surprised to note that the Government tabled an amendment to item 15, motion 27, which will be taken during Private Members' time. I talked to Members from the Government side, who were reasonable, and I will talk to the Minister and the Chief Whip this afternoon. I hope the amendment will be withdrawn and I will speak on this matter this evening.
I strongly support Senator Wright's call for a debate on Northern Ireland. I draw the attention of the House to motion 28, which is a motion in the names of Senator Henry and I. This proposes:
That, in the light of the recent tragic event, Seanad Éireann requests the Government to convene a special sitting of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation in the immediate future to include all existing delegates and representatives of political parties in Dublin Castle.
It is important that the Seanad sends a message to the Government that the forum should be reconvened. I have felt for some months that the forum was just marking time and doing little which was of use. This is a time when it can be used to include the representatives of Sinn Féin. I listened to Mr. Adams demanding meetings with the Taoiseach and others. He should look for a meeting with the armed forces in the background; I hope he is currently talking to them. Senator Henry and I frequently represent the Seanad at the forum. This is a time when that body could be useful. Doors must be kept open and I hope the Government will take on board our suggestion that the forum be reconvened as soon as possible to include all delegates so that we can do something useful.
Last week I asked for a debate on Northern Ireland. Before that point I was not enthusiastic about such a debate. I made the request last week because of the report of the drafting committee of the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. We must condemn the events which took place over the weekend but it is important that language be moderate and that the tone of what we say is prudent. It might be no harm to reflect on this matter and it would be preferable to discuss it next week.
I note the motion put down by the Independent Group about the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. I am glad it is still in existence but it is correct to introduce a lull in its proceedings. If we had gone to the forum at the end of this week, the language might not have been as moderate as it should have been. From that point of view, it is no harm to have a break. Our record shows that we have always approached this matter in a responsible way and have tried to keep the peace process going. When we made ritual condemnations over an extended period of events that had taken place, we hoped and prayed it would be the last time; unfortunately we have to do it again. However, it would be no harm for us to reflect on this for a while and discuss it next week.
There is something odd in the air. Last week, Senator O'Toole made an excursion into County Roscommon and Senator Norris is going to Ringsend. What is happening in the Independent bench that is making them spread out into——
Ringsend is in Dublin 4.
I had wondered about Senator Norris' interest in equine affairs; I did not notice him at any of the race meetings I attended recently. I am relieved to see the Senator is interested in aquatic affairs. It should also be recorded that he described the Government as reasonable. This is an uncharacteristic word for Senator Norris to use in the context of any Government.
I also supported the call for a debate on Northern Ireland last week; the appalling incident in London has totally changed the situation. However, it would help if we had a debate on Northern Ireland. There is a difficult and delicate balance there at the moment; there are signs of hope and of getting the peace process back on track and we can play a constructive part in that.
I agree with Senator Dardis in that having the forum meeting immediately may be more divisive than anything else in the context of the current situation. It would be advisable if it did not meet for some period of time until we see a way forward and what constructive approach it could take in the current situation.
I associate myself with all that was said in respect of what would be a positive debate on the Northern Ireland conflict. The Leader of the House could feel reassured that this would be our approach. I have been asking for this debate for some time. It would give us an opportunity to clearly signal that we support the peacemakers with all the conviction and energy we have.
I met my old friend John Hume last Friday afternoon, before the horrific events of Friday night. He expressed the apprehensions and anxiety he had at that time, not in relation to having any information on a particular incident that might happen — he had no knowledge of that — but about the stalemate which had been allowed to develop and which would cause great frustration. It is too sad to think that such a peacemaker — he is the real personification of that word — was expressing that frustration and that, a few hours later, these horrific events took place.
I have no doubt that our contributions will be positive and reassuring. However, we should leave no one in any doubt that those who take risks for peace — no one has done more than John Hume — will have our full and enthusiastic support.
While I can understand delaying the meeting of the forum for a short time to discuss Northern Ireland, I would not like to see the delay to be too long. Those of us who have been to the forum realise what a flexible body it is. It is not essential that we all sit down together in one room. One of the most important parts of the forum was the lunch where no one sat with their own group; we were expected to mingle. People who felt that, just at that moment, they could not sit down with certain people did not have to. We could perhaps bring the Tánaiste's ideas of proximity talks a little further forward; I am not being facetious in saying that perhaps we could have a "proximity lunch" of the forum.
I will not make a speech about Northern Ireland. If we have a debate on Northern Ireland next week, could it be extended to include the new Senator, who is to be elected at the end of next week?
I ask the Leader of the House to consider bringing the Minister for Health, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Education into the House to explain the rights and wrongs of the current nurses dispute. People in this House should be enlightened why the nurses are refusing a paltry offer of £20 million while the teachers are about to loot the national treasury for about £65 million. We deserve an explanation of this situation which has been hidden by other events. It is a matter of great public importance and concerns the public finances, to which we should address ourselves. Politicians are frightened to address the issue of the early retirement for teachers and teachers' pay because there are so many teachers in both Houses, but the deal which they are hatching is so exorbitant that the issue should be raised immediately.
I support the request for a debate on Northern Ireland. In that debate we should examine the reasons for such delays on the so-called peace process. We should also examine the relationship between the Unionist Party and the Orange Order. Indeed, their closely interwoven relationship begs the question whether talks are possible in the current context of that relationship; the Unionist Party may not be allowed have talks with nationalists. An examination of the constitution of the Orange Order shows that it does not provide much accommodation for such talks. We all have to moderate our language and make every effort to support the peace process but all the facts must be on the table.
Like everybody else we support a reasoned debate in this House, but such a debate should nonetheless give a message today that the quest for peace is unstoppable, that we will keep faith with those who kept faith with us. I do not exclude Mr. Gerry Adams from that equation, but it should be said that no atrocity, from whatever side or for whatever reason, will escape our condemnation. This House should send its sympathy to the families of the two people who were blown to eternity because the IRA army council wish to make a political point. That will never be acceptable to Members of this House or to any Irish citizen.
I wish to make a couple of points. For many months now I have been asking that the Minister for Defence come in here and make statements about the reorganisation of the Defence Forces. I do not want to raise points that could be raised by every Member — that a barracks is to close here or that there is to be a change of personnel from one place to another. However, a huge number of psychological problems have been caused because those serving in the Defence Forces do not know where they are going. I have been asking for this debate for nearly a year now and we keep being fobbed off. I would like the Minister to come into the House and make a definitive statement on what is happening within the Defence Forces, if he knows what is happening. I am not disparaging him by saying that; there could be conflict between what is happening at Government level, at departmental level and Defence Force level.
This is the month of February and we still do not know what is happening overall regarding the ferocious problems caused by flooding throughout the country. A debate on this issue has been requested many times. It is not just a matter of localised flooding as it appears changes are taking place which are causing flooding in places which never experienced it previously. There is a sustained level of interest and concern throughout the country about this problem and it is time the Minister came to the House to discuss it.
On a lighter note, I am glad the newspapers yesterday reported that officials worked very hard to root out a cause of great concern. A man from Carrickmacross has been charged with sunbathing in the nude and I am sure the Garda and others——
I am not sure that is relevant to today's Order of Business.
Senator Norris's pool.
I am certain there is a grave need to spend much time trying to root out that desperate evil in this country.
It is not a matter for today's Order of Business.
On numerous occasions I have called for a debate on Northern Ireland. Since Senator Gordon Wilson passed away, a strong unionist voice has been missing in the House; a large vacuum was created in which little discussion on Northern Ireland took place. It is sad that, because a bomb went off last weekend, which we all condemn unreservedly, it has been decided to hold a debate on this matter. A discussion should have been held long before now.
I came across the Border yesterday and the ramps were back up again in Strabane where the barriers and checkpoints had been removed. It is very sad if this is an indication of what is to come. We must move as quickly as possible to get all party talks under way. I was in Belfast recently and people from all sides of the divide said all party talks should have taken place. The politicians in the North are not talking on behalf of the people.
I support Senator Maloney's call for a debate on the provision of funding for Letterkenny General Hospital. As I am also a representative of the area and a member of the North-Western Health Board, perhaps the Leader could arrange time for me to contribute.
That is an Adjournment matter. We are not discussing it on the Order of Business.
I support the request of my party leader in the House for a debate on Northern Ireland. In common with Senator Maloney, I too must travel through the North to get to Dublin. The people who set off the bomb in London must be condemned. Whatever else it does and irrespective of political posturing, the House should pass a vote of sympathy to the families of those killed and totally dissociate itself from the mistake of those who ordered the bomb explosion. They are misguided people who are struggling for political recognition. They do not have the support of the Irish people. I support Mr. John Hume's proposal for a referendum on both sides of the Border.
We are not discussing the matter now. I am sure the Senator will have an opportunity to discuss it at a later date.
In common with other Members, I am explaining why I am anxious that a debate is held.
The Senator is supporting the request for a debate.
Yes. I also support Mr. John Hume's proposal for a referendum on the basis that it will completely isolate those responsible and demonstrate the number of people, North and South, who totally oppose violence.
We are not discussing the issue now. The Senator can make that point during the appropriate debate.
I am receiving more disruption from the Chair than other Members who spoke on the same subject. I am sorry to cast that reflection.
I do not want every Member contributing on this issue. The Senator has made his point that he is supporting a debate on it.
I made the point, but other Members who spoke on this matter were not censured in the same way. I am sorry to cast any reflection on the Chair but I must speak my mind.
The Chair is asking the Senator to put a question to the Leader.
Will the Leader provide sufficient time to have a full and open debate which will cover all aspects of the problems regarding the North of Ireland, including the bombing and murder of the people in London? The debate should also indicate how we believe these problems should be addressed at a political level in the future. We should not use the procedure of statements, rather enough time should be provided to ensure that the House makes a worthwhile contribution.
I support those who favour a debate on Northern Ireland. We need time to reflect on what happened last Friday when the peace process appeared to be coming to an end. It is a very sad development, especially for those, like myself, who come from Border counties. For 25 years violence caused widespread inconvenience to those in Northern Ireland and the Border counties. The ceasefires of the past 18 months brought enormous comfort to Northern Ireland as it did to the people of County Monaghan, County Cavan, County Sligo, County Leitrim and County Donegal. Will the Leader convey the views of the House and my concerns to the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and the relevant people involved in the peace process about the need to try to get the process back on the rails? Time is of vital importance.
I add my voice to the request for a debate on the North at the earliest opportunity. Time is indeed of the essence. If we delay too long there is a danger such a debate would be academic because the decision will already have been taken which will determine the direction of events for many years to come. I echo Senator Maloney's call for all party talks, if only because if the peace process fails, and it may fail within the next week, it is impossible to see how a Sinn Féin Leader can ever go back to the IRA with any prospect of persuading it that a peace process is worth risking.
I support the request for a debate on Northern Ireland. Although I live approximately 260 miles from the Border and a long way from London, the reality struck home when a young girl, a neighbour, was in the building when the bomb exploded. She was lucky to receive only some minor injuries and she is fine, thank God. It could have been more tragic for her and then the reality would have hit us in west County Cork.
I agree with Senator Magner that the sympathy of all Members of the House should be extended to the relatives of the two people who were killed. They were innocent people, not part of any conflict and their lives were sacrificed in a way that was brutal and needless. The House must condemn the deed itself; it was evil. Those who planted the bomb were the people who broke the peace process, nobody else.
I am grateful to the Leader of the Opposition and others for the positive and supportive way in which this question is being addressed today. A striking aspect of the past couple of days has been the absence of recriminations and the realisation that recriminations, however well they may be earned or justified, do not help the universal desire to get back to talking. It is an absolute imperative that the process must be set working again. This has been the desire of the two Governments and of all parties.
There will be a debate on Northern Ireland next Tuesday and I will endeavour to provide as much time as possible so that everyone who wishes to make a point will get an adequate opportunity to do so. It is fair to say that in the past our debates on Northern Ireland were too short and I will try to remedy that.
Senator Norris asked about the Adjournment debate. The Senator is always reasonable and he will find the Government is reasonable in this also. We will discuss the matter later to avoid any break in relations.
Item 15, motion 28, was raised by Senator Norris and Senator Henry among others; it concerns the Forum for Peace and Reconciliation. My understanding is that it is not the Government who call a meeting of the forum, it is the parties to the forum who decide. There appears to be broad agreement among the parties that for the moment it would not be advisable for the forum to meet. In relation to Senator Henry's point, it is my understanding that the social aspects of the forum — by which I mean people meeting and exchanging views — will continue over the coming weeks. It will be possible for forum members to meet within its precincts and under its aegis to consult and discuss with each other informally. It is not a question of a complete breakdown in communications — all of us wish that the forum would be functioning fully as soon as possible.
Most Senators raised the issue of Northern Ireland. Senator Haughey made an interesting and valuable point and in The Irish Times today there is an article by Mr. Dick Grogan which is worth reading. He writes that words and their meanings are one of the major casualties of the Northern Ireland conflict. There is not much point having a debate next week if there is not plain speaking or if people are not able to say exactly what they mean.
Senator Ross asked about teachers. It is open to him to put down a motion on that subject; I have no difficulty having the matter discussed in the House. Senator Lanigan asked for a debate on the Defence Forces; he has raised this issue on many occasions and I will look for such a debate as soon as possible. He has been uncharacteristically patient and I will do my best to organise this. On the question of flooding, legislation left this House some weeks ago; it is now in the other House and should be implemented shortly. We had a debate on flooding——
That was on a minor issue.
The Leader without interruption.
I will see what can be done on that. All other contributors asked about Northern Ireland and I have dealt with that issue.
