Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Oct 1996

Vol. 148 No. 14

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Before I announce the Order of Business, I would like to say that during the summer the former Captain of the Guard, Cathal Ó Laoghaire, retired. We all wish him a long and happy retirement and thank him for all the work he did for us over the years. I also take the opportunity to welcome his successor, Captain Noel McCann, who has taken up duty. He has a hard act to follow but we are sure he will do so effectively.

Today's Order of Business is items 1 and 2. At the outset, I would like to thank the Opposition for its co-operation in agreeing to take all Stages of item 1.

Mr. O'Toole

And the Independents.

Mr. Manning

I thank all groups, including the Independent Senators, for their co-operation which was so willingly given to get this legislation through today. The arrangements are that the House will sit until 6.45 p.m. when it will adjourn until 8 p.m. It will then sit until business is completed. I hope to get agreement to 20 minutes per speaker on Second Stage of item 1.

Mr. Wright

The Order of Business is agreed to. The Leader will be aware that this side of the House, including the spokespersons on Justice, Senator Mulcahy and Senator Bohan, and I, made it clear that we would support legislation on crime. We welcome the fact that this legislation is being introduced and we hope it will be dealt with today.

As regards item 5 on the Supplementary Order Paper, which deals with the hepatitis C issue, I ask the Leader to make time available for the Minister for Health to come to this House to bring us up to date. The Leader will be aware that Senator Finneran and others have raised this issue over the past ten to 12 months and he will note that this motion in the name of Senator Finneran and the Fianna Fáil Party is dated October 1995. I ask the Leader to arrange time tomorrow or next week for the Minister to come to the House to bring us up to date. I am aware that he intends to bring the criteria in relation to the tribunal to both House of the Oireachtas, but it would be worthwhile if the Minister came to this House regardless.

We agreed with the Leader's judgment before the summer recess about a debate on Northern Ireland. However, we feel the time is right for this House to have an opportunity to speak and that we should have statements on Northern Ireland sooner rather than later.

Mr. Norris

I join with the Leader in sending my best wishes to the former Captain of the Guard, Cathal Ó Laoghaire, who gave me, as to many Members, good and very often discreet advice about the best way to handle matters in this House. I remember when I won a court case which resulted in my readmission into the House he suggested that, instead of barging in, I should wait quietly outside until the House invited me in so as not to turn the knife in the wound. I took his advice and I was grateful to him for the subtle and decent way in which he proffered it.

Has the Leader of the House any plans to continue discussions on the Luas proposal for Dublin? I would welcome it if the Government put down a motion but if not, I will certainly do so. I presume that since six months have passed since the debate was held in the House last February, it should be possible to have one now. The reason I ask this is that the Minister gave the House certain undertakings which have not been fulfilled. There was to have been an independent report. Semaly, a respectable and professional group, reported but they are the consultants engaged by CIÉ and the Minister to promote Luas so they can scarcely be described as independent.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter now.

Mr. Norris

I received this thick document in the post, as I am sure did every other Member of the House. I wonder how much money is being spent on the promotion of one side of this case? In the light of the judgment in the McKenna case, it seems to me that the Government is treading on very dangerous ground here, particularly when much of this material is incorrect. It is important that we have this debate.

The Minister seems to be deliberately undermining the public inquiry which is to be held because every one of his statements maintains clearly that, come hell or high water, Luas is going ahead. Something must be done and we must use this House to do it.

Second, I join Senator Wright in asking for a debate on the North of Ireland. This is very timely in view of the tragic circumstances which have just emerged. It is make-your-mind-up time for Mr. Gerry Adams. Many of us have been wondering how committed he was to the peace process. He was the man who coined the phrase "An armalite in one hand and the ballot box in the other". I want to know whether——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter today.

Mrs. McGennis

Are we to have a debate now?

Mr. Norris

He certainly accepted it. It seems to me that Sinn Féin, and certainly the IRA, are treating both communities with contempt. They are treating their own Nationalist people with contempt because they are using them as cannon fodder.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Mr. Norris

They are attempting to provoke the Protestant paramilitaries into equal action. In the light of these developments, will the Leader have a debate on Northern Ireland?

Mr. Dardis

It is important that we express our concern, as a House, about the turn of events in Northern Ireland. There were several appeals for a debate before the recess and, because of sensitivities at the time, it was decided that it would probably be better not to discuss them. However, there is an obligation on us now to discuss them.

Picking up on a point which Senator Norris made, it is important that we be moderate in our tone to help progress matters. That moderation has always been evident in debates in the House and that is one of the reasons it is important that it be discussed here as there is an obligation on constitutional politicians — I am sure the Leader will agree — here and in the North to ensure that the vacuum which has been created is filled by constitutional politicians. That is the way forward, not through the gun, bomb and bullet. I hope the Leader will be able to make time available within the next few days and, if not, next week to debate this matter and the whole peace process.

As to the hepatitis C issue, the Leader will be aware that my colleague, Senator Honan, has raised this on many occasions. Unfortunately, she is ill but I know that if she were here, she would want the matter debated. In the context of the motion to establish the tribunal, the Leader will correct me if I am wrong but I think it must come before both Houses. When may we expect that motion to come before the House? When it comes before the House, will we have adequate time to debate these important matters in full?

Finally, I do not expect the Leader to give an answer immediately on this matter but I hope he will be able to answer shortly. When is the credit union Bill likely to be published? When is it likely to come before the Houses?

I join in the good wishes and thanks to the outgoing Captain of the Guard and I wish his successor well.

Ms O'Sullivan

I support the call for a debate on Northern Ireland; it is appropriate that this House should condemn the appalling bombings in Lisburn, County Down, recently. Progress must be made by the two Governments but the main stumbling block is the anti-democratic nature of the actions being taken by the Provisional IRA. I agree with Senator Norris that the Sinn Féin leadership will have to make a decision about its participation in the democratic process while at the same time giving succour to anti-democratic forces within that movement. We must address that issue because it is the main stumbling block to peace.

I also support what has been said about the need for clarification and information as soon as possible on the hepatitis C tribunal; and I welcome the Minister's announcement that there is to be a full investigation.

I too intended asking about the credit union legislation. I hope it will be published this term. I know the first draft is with the Department of Enterprise and Employment. There is great interest in having this legislation before the House as soon as possible.

Mr. Sherlock

Motions 21 and 23 on the Order Paper read:

That Seanad Éireann notes the Report of the Financing of Local Government in Ireland — KPMG.

also

That Seanad Éireann notes the report Towards Cohesive Local Government — Town and Country — Report of Reorganisation Commission, April 1996.

When is it expected that these reports will be debated in this House?

Miss Ormonde

There are two issues I wish to raise. When is the universities Bill likely to be published? There has been much discourse about this. The second issue relates to the administration of the overtime ban in regional technical colleges. This is affecting grants, registration and the preparation of graduates and is creating hardship for all students. I ask the Leader to convey this concern to the Minister and ask if she would tell us her views on the overtime ban and how she might overcome the problem.

Mr. Ross

Arising from Senator Ormonde's question I suggest we be given guidance when the universities Bill is likely to come before this House. I suggest the Leader sends a clear message to the Minister not to bring the present Bill before this House because it will be defeated. He should also tell her not to presume she will get it through Second Stage here because she will not. I would like that assurance from him, and his own personal blessing, because of his great loyalty to the NUI, that he will join me in the "Níl" lobby in voting against this Bill in its present form.

An Cathaoirleach

A question to the Leader.

Mr. Ross

I endorse the plea for a debate on Northern Ireland, but I do not endorse the sentiments expressed by Senator O'Sullivan or Senator Norris that it is make-up-your mind time for Sinn Féin. It made up its mind a long time ago.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing——

Mr. Ross

This is a question. Sinn Féin made up its mind about democracy along time ago. It is not interested in it. It is make-up-your-mind time for people here about what they think about Sinn Féin, not vice versa.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter today. A question to the Leader on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Ross

The question to the Leader of the House is that he phrase the motion in such a way that it puts pressure on Members to make up their minds about Sinn Féin rather than vice versa.

Mr. Finneran

Do I detect on the first day back the first real crack in the Rainbow Coalition?

Mr. Magner

Senator Ross never joined.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Finneran on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

I join with my colleague, Senator Ormonde, in calling on the Minister for Education to address the dispute raging in the regional technical colleges between IMPACT and the authorities. While I do not wish to interfere with the constitutional right of the union to negotiate and obtain what they wish for their members, the students have rights and believe it is of paramount importance that they obtain their grants and student cards. I join the call in asking the Minister to intervene in whatever way she can.

I also join the Leader of the Opposition, Senator Wright, in calling on the Minister for Health to come to this House and make a statement or allow us to make statements on hepatitis C. I am pleased the Minister has decided to set up a statutory inquiry. It is a belated move; he is a late convert considering that I, in the name of my party, submitted such a resolution to this House on 1 November 1995. If it had not been for the tragic events later that day——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter now, Senator.

Mr. Finneran

A vote might have been taken on the matter but tragic events occurred later that afternoon and the motion was not concluded.

An Cathaoirleach

A question on the Order of Business.

Mr. Finneran

In view of the commitment given at the time, which transpired not to count for much, and since the Minister has decided to go along with what the motion proposed, the Minister should make a statement to the House and allow Senators to contribute their views. I join Senator Wright's call for the Minister to make such a statement.

Mr. Magner

Senator Finneran should not look for cracks in the Government. It is accepted that Senator Ross was always a semi-detached member of the Administration anyway.

I join my colleagues in calling for a debate on Northern Ireland. This House has been extremely temperate in its dealings with Northern Ireland and no occasion has passed without it condemning outrages such as Lisburn. Time and again we have pointed out that the Provisional IRA cannot be allowed and must cease making points with the blood and bodies of ordinary people. It cannot do that any longer and it knows the feelings of this House.

An Cathaoirleach

As I have already pointed out, we are not discussing the matter.

Mr. Magner

The Leader of the House will agree that boycotting seeps blood into the dealings of ordinary people in their daily commercial lives. The essence of the practice stores up problems for the future. Whatever the provocation on both sides, the practice of boycotting should end.

Mr. Mulcahy

The Opposition warmly welcomes the publication by the Minister for Justice of her proposals for the bail referendum and consequent legislation. We support the referendum.

If the bail referendum is passed it will be the most far-reaching change in the administration of justice for decades. Therefore, it is important that this House holds a long and wide ranging debate on the proposed referendum at an early opportunity. Since the referendum is to be held on 28 November, there is no point holding the debate at the end of the campaign. The Minister of Justice should come to the House at the beginning of the campaign and clearly set out her proposals. Let us have a proper debate on the subject.

Mr. Enright

I congratulate the Minister for Agriculture, Food and Forestry and his staff on their recent success in obtaining convictions in the courts for the use of growth promoters in beef production. The judges made correct decisions. Can the Leader of the House say if there are proposals for Government legislation to impose mandatory sentences on people who are convicted of using growth promoters? People who use growth promoters such as Clenbuturol, hormones, angel dust and so forth, should face mandatory sentences of imprisonment on conviction. Usually I am reluctant to endorse mandatory sentencing and I have spoken against the concept on a number of occasions. However, the importance of our beef exports and beef industry is such——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Enright

——that this House must make it clear that the use of growth promoters will not be tolerated anywhere.

Mr. Bohan

Will the Leader express my appreciation to the Minister for Justice for taking my advice of a few months ago? I suggested that she bring back the hundreds of gardaí stationed on the Border and replace them with the Army. It is nice to see a Minister accepting constructive advice.

Mr. Maloney

The Garda were still there last night when I was coming through Northern Ireland. I support the call for a debate on the health issue. It is important to debate Northern Ireland. I was at Drumcree and I was in Derry on 12 August. The situation up there is one of major concern. We seem to be reluctant to debate this issue. I remind Members that there are two sides to the problem and there is violence on both sides. We have to be fair when we debate the matter.

I ask that the safety review report on the fishing industry be considered for debate in view of the number of fishermen who lost their lives over the last number of years. Finally, I congratulate our colleague, Senator Dardis, on being selected as the best dressed politician of 1996.

Dr. Henry

I have a request for the Minister for Education in relation to the universities Bill. I foolishly offered to send copies of this Bill to constituents but I have had a response from some to say that, legally, Bills must be published in Irish as well as English. While the Bill promotes the Irish language and culture within the universities, the Irish version is not available. I ask the Leader if this version could be made available. Four copies will do me to date, but there may be more requests next week.

Mr. Norris

Is the taxpayer paying for the Senator's extravagance?

Dr. Henry

Hand written copies will do.

Mr. Mooney

I echo the call from all sides for a debate on Northern Ireland. We are told to be moderate during debates on the North. I suggest that much of what we say here is not absorbed to any great extent by the Unionist community in Northern Ireland. Senator Maloney said there were two sides to the situation. I hope one of the messages conveyed from this House in the context of the condemnation of the bombs is that many people in the South, especially those of us in the Border counties, appreciate all that people such as Mr. David Ervine and Mr. Gary McMichael, have done to hold the line in terms of the loyalist ceasefire. We all pray that that loyalist ceasefire will be maintained because breaking it will result in the killing of Catholics. I hope the message goes from here that we appreciate what they are doing on a political level and that perhaps common sense will prevail.

I ask the Leader when the Bill on the cultural institutions will be introduced. This Bill was circulated during the recess and it has significant implications for many of our cultural institutions, the National Library and, specifically, the Office of the Chief Herald, which has been debated in this House. Having heard Senator Ross's remarks on the universities Bill I hope I can count on his help when we table an amendment opposing the abolition of this historic title which was initiated by King Edward in the 1600s.

Mr. Magner

We will appoint Senator Ross as Chief Herald.

Mr. Mooney

I know Senator Ross gazes wistfully at the Vice-Regal Lodge when he passes it.

Mr. Dardis

We all do that.

Mr. Mooney

We hope that we can count on his help in regard to this royal institution.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing that issue. I am sure you can point that out to him during the debate on the Bill.

Mr. O'Brien

I join with those who called for a debate on Northern Ireland. I condemn the recent bombings. They are unhelpful. I ask the Taoiseach and the Tánaiste to try very hard to have all sides included in the talks; it is very important that all sides are involved in the talks if we are to go forward. If we do not go down that road, we will have real trouble in the months and years ahead.

Mr. Mullooly

I support points made by my colleagues, Senator Ormonde and Senator Finneran, in relation to the current dispute in the regional technical colleges. This dispute has serious implications for the welfare of students and is causing them a great deal of hardship. I join in their request to the Leader of the House to raise the matter with the Minister for Education with a view to having the dispute resolved at the earliest possible date.

Mr. O'Toole

After all the weighty matters which have been raised today, I wish to return to an issue which I raised earlier this year with the Leader. The taxi driver who drove me home on Monday night informed me that on five out of six days last week traffic in Dublin was stopped by Eurocrats. If the European Presidency is bringing gridlock to Dublin city and if Eurocrats are playing dodgems on Drumcondra Road, with motorbikes with flashing lights, we are entitled to know why.

If these people will be responsible for building Luas — under or over the ground — I dread to think what we will face. I would like to know that somebody has some control over this matter and is taking decisions on it which meet proper standards and criteria. We are entitled to know that and I ask for this information to be made available to Members. People are trying to get to work in the mornings and home in the evenings while traffic is coming from all directions and is making dangerous manoeuvres——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing that matter now.

Mr. O'Toole

I do not object to necessary security arrangements, including the stopping of traffic, for people of certain significance. However, as I said before, clerks bringing cheques could send them by post or they could be met at the airport.

I support the call for a debate on Northern Ireland. There is much more to this matter than whether this is a good or bad time for such a debate. Every time we turn on the radio or television we hear an interested person from the North and South with something to say on this matter. People are asking what politicians have to say about it. I ask the Leader to give a commitment that we will have a debate on this issue next week. A week is enough time to prepare for such a debate. This should be done by consensus rather than by moving amendments to the Order of Business. We have always had consensus in the House on this matter. Views need to be expressed and perhaps the time for walking on eggshells is past. Now is the time to put views on the record.

I also call for an opportunity to be given to the Minister for Health to explain to the House the involvement of his Department in the Blood Transfusion Service Board debacle. There are all sorts of lessons to be learned from it. We need to hear the facts, as the Minister sees them, and form our own conclusions and responses. I ask for that debate to take place in a non-party way——

Mr. Finneran

That is how it should be.

Mr. O'Toole

——because, speaking as an Independent, bad signals have been sent to the public over the last fortnight by the pretence that some parties have cornered the market on this issue. Everybody is genuinely concerned and people are entitled to be emotional about it. Ministers have to take the criticism——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing that matter.

Mr. O'Toole

We should look at it from the point of view of moving forward.

Mrs. McGennis

I also support the call for a debate on the peace process in Northern Ireland. I hope it will be a balanced and thoughtful debate. I share the sentiments expressed by Senator Dardis and Senator Maloney who called for a moderate debate. Some of the comments made today were far from moderate; they were highly inflammatory. There are two sides to this problem and we need to address it in a balanced way.

I strongly support the call for the Minister to debate the hepatitis C issue in the House. I welcome the belated apology of the Blood Transfusion Service Board but I would like the Minister to put that apology into context. During the investigation by the Joint Committee on Women's Rights into this issue, the Minister demanded I apologise to his staff because I accused them of misleading the joint committee on this issue. I would like the Minister to come to the House and put that demand into context.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing that matter.

Mrs. McGennis

He threatened to remove his staff and to withdraw co-operation from the joint committee.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is supporting the call for a debate on the matter.

Mrs. McGennis

I want the Minister to put that demand into context.

The light rail proposal for Dublin requires debate and discussion. The public consultation process, to which Senator Norris referred, is regarded as a sham. There is genuine concern that we will hold a public inquiry and then Minister Lowry will proceed along the path that he always intended to go. There is also a case to be answered about the amount of money involved. I received the glossy document to which Senator Norris referred; the public are entitled to know how their money is being spent. It will probably be another McKenna case.

Mr. Cassidy

I concur with the previous speaker in calling for a debate on the Luas issue. We were told here very late one night that this was enabling legislation. The legislation has gone through and now the minute details are there for us all to discuss. On that evening this side of the House was more than co-operative in allowing that enabling legislation to go through. I concur with Senator McGennis in calling for a debate on that issue.

I also call for a debate urgently on the proposed cutbacks in Iarnród Éireann which affect nearly every part of Ireland, in particular the Cathaoirleach's part of the west, which seems to be the first place everybody goes for cutbacks. We have come from a briefing for Oireachtas Members and very serious cutbacks of £40 million each year for the next few years are proposed. A debate on this is very urgently needed next week or the week after.

Mr. Roche

I ask the Leader for an early discussion on the universities Bill. It would be appropriate for the Bill to be introduced in this House and the Minister could then finalise her conclusions on this matter when she has heard from the House.

Second, the Leader will recall that on numerous occasions in the last 12 months I have asked for a full debate on the Western European Union. I renew that request today on the basis of the extraordinary opinion poll published in The Irish Times last Friday. It indicated that, on one hand, the Irish people were in favour of retaining neutrality and, on the other hand, they were in favour of the Partnership For Peace, indicating to me a degree of confusion out there. That confusion can only be addressed by a political debate in the two Houses. We are now seeing an absolute failure of political leadership from both Houses of the Oireachtas on this. This debate needs to be urgently undertaken.

Finally I ask the Leader if the Minister for Education could be encouraged to conclude the problems in the regional technical colleges. As the Leader knows from his profession outside this House, there are real hardships for parents and students who cannot get maintenance grants. The problems with IMPACT and the regional technical colleges are going to exacerbate what has already been a historically unacceptable delay in delivering maintenance grants to students. I am sure the Leader and Members on all sides share my concern. I hope the Minister will come in and make a statement on the issue.

An Cathaoirleach

I join with the Leader and other Members in wishing Captain Ó Laoghaire every good luck in his retirement and his replacement every good luck for the future.

Mr. Manning

There were a number of issues raised by virtually all speakers today. The first was an early debate on Northern Ireland. I agree that circumstances have changed greatly since we were last here and an early debate would be helpful and useful. I will see that it is arranged as soon as possible and will consult with the leaders of Opposition groups on that matter.

The other matter raised by virtually every speaker was hepatitis C. The Minister for Health will be in this House within a week to eight days to introduce the motion to set up the tribunal of inquiry. The terms of reference have yet to be decided. This must be passed by a motion of both Houses. It is my intention — and I am talking about a matter of probably not more than a week from now — to give Senators as much time as they want for that debate. It can be open-ended and as long as they want. The motion on the inquiry is the business as of now. In the spirit outlined by Senator O'Toole, it is appropriate that we should have the fullest and most open debate possible. The setting up of the tribunal and its terms of reference will allow every aspect of the issue to be discussed. I ask the Opposition to accept this as reasonable.

Senator Norris asked if I had any plans for a debate on Luas. I have no such plans, but if it would be useful and helpful I will talk to the Senator and see if we can arrange for such a debate at a reasonably early date.

Senator Dardis asked about the credit union Bill. It has been given priority by the Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Rabbitte, and I understand that it will be published before Christmas. Work is at a sufficiently advanced stage to be reasonably confident about this.

Senator Sherlock asked about local government financing. I put these motions on the Order Paper because I wish to have a full discussion on them. The Minister indicated that he would also welcome such a discussion but it will not be for a couple of weeks.

Questions on the university Bill were raised by Senator Ormonde and Senator Ross. Senator Ross does not need me as a medium of communication between the Minister and himself. She is in no doubt as to where he stands on these issues and he has an adequate platform from which to express his views on a weekly basis. Those who buy that newspaper can read them therein.

It is intended to take the university Bill in the other House within the next week or so. Following the Second Stage debate there it will go to one of the Dáil committees. I estimate that it will not leave the Dáil until approximately November or December.

Mr. Wright

June.

Mr. Manning

I will not be hurrying it up. I do not have any conflict on this matter. As Leader of the House I will do what is appropriate on the legislation. However, there are areas where the Bill may be changed. Extensive consultations are taking place at present. The Bill will do well on Committee Stage. If difficulties cannot be resolved in the Dáil they will then receive the wisdom of this House as to what should be the best Bill for our universities facing into the next century. This is the interest of everybody in the House.

The Bill is very good. A few small difficulties need to be resolved. It will be welcomed as giving the universities the capacity to manage their own affairs and to be responsible to the State where it is reasonable that they should be so.

Senator Magner raised a question on the boycotts that are taking place in Northern Ireland. We all join with him in saying that they have no place. It is a policy that should be abandoned. Senator Mulcahy was in agreement with Senator Magner on this, which for him may be unusual.

There will be a full debate on the bail Bill, which is the basis for the referendum, on 23 October. It will be open ended and Senators will have as much time as they need on it. Senator Enright raised some questions on the courts which I do not intend to comment on.

Senator Bohan's advice inside or outside the House is always worth having and I am sure the Minister regards it as such. Senator Maloney raised a good question on the safety review report, which I would like to debate later this session.

On the question of the universities Bill, Senator Henry made the point, which I understand is wrong, that all Bills must be published in Irish and English. Former Senator Pól Ó Foighil fought this case a few years ago but not to conclusion. As far as I am aware there is no obligation on the Government to publish Bills in Irish and in English.

Mr. Dardis

The Titles.

Mr. Manning

I will come back to the Senator on that point as she tries to keep her constituents informed.

Mr. Maloney

Look what happened to Pól Ó Foighil.

Mr. Manning

I agree with Senator Mooney in paying tribute to Mr. McMichael and Mr. Ervine for what they are doing. Second Stage of the cultural institutions Bill is scheduled to be taken here on 17 October. That is not definite because of the tribunal and other matters but that is the tentative arrangement. I am touched by the Senator's concern for the preservation of royalist institutions in our republic.

Mr. Mooney

It is only to get Senator Ross' vote.

Mr. Manning

Senator Mullooly, Senator Finneran, Senator Ormonde and others raised the dispute in the regional technical colleges. I will convey Members' concern about the subject to the Minister. I am in agreement with Senator O'Toole about Eurocrats and gridlock.

Mr. O'Toole

Let us lock them in the airport.

Mr. Manning

Last Sunday traffic on Haddington Road was held up while one man was escorted to church to attend Mass by motorcycle police. I will discuss the issue relating to larnród Éireann with Senator Cassidy. In response to Senator Roche the Freedom of Information Bill, which has been on his agenda for a long time, will be published in November and it will be a Seanad Bill out of deference to the amount of work he has done in that area. I will talk with him about having a debate on the Western European Union. There is no time on the schedule at present but we can see about it.

Order of Business agreed to.