Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 13 Nov 1996

Vol. 149 No. 6

Order of Business.

Mr. Manning

Today's business is items 1, 2 and 3. Item 1 will be taken from after the Order of Business until 6 p.m. Item 2 will be taken without debate, unless someone wishes to speak, because there is little involved and the Committee on Procedure and Privileges has already discussed it in some detail. Item 3 — statements on the proposed legislation on food safety — has been included in response to requests from all sides for consultation on and input into that area. I propose 15 minutes per speaker. This item will not conclude if the two hours allocated this evening are filled, it will remain on the Order Paper for further contributions. The sos will be from 1 p.m. until 2.30 p.m.

I had hoped to take the Milk Regulations Bill this week but it has not completed its passage through the other House, as I had been informed it would, so it is not possible to deal with it today. It will have to take a place further down the queue.

The Committee on Procedure and Privileges had a long discussion on the constitutional report, with particular reference to the role of the Seanad. It has been agreed that we should have a fairly structured debate on this House so that the considered views of Members can be expressed and will be on record when the committee meets. In consultation with all sides of the House, I hope to start that debate in the next few weeks and to see how it will be structured. We will probably have weekly discussions on it between now and the end of this session. It is important that Members be given notice that this debate is coming up and that Members who have direct experience of the strengths, shortcomings and potential of this House should be able to make their views known, otherwise the process will be left to outside experts and we would have a grievance. It is in order to ensure full participation that this debate has been organised.

Mr. Wright

I welcome what the Leader said and my colleague Senator Fitzgerald, who made the request last week, will respond to him. The House will welcome an opportunity to contribute. As the Leader rightly said, there is tremendous experience on all sides and if there is to be a review of the House I welcome the fact that those who have been elected here will be afforded an opportunity to state their views.

What are the Leader's intentions for the week of the bail referendum? As all parties are supporting a "yes" vote, perhaps he would consider different sittings to allow those of us who are actively campaigning an opportunity to be further involved.

On the Order of Business last Thursday I mentioned the news which had just emerged about the Department of Justice. Those issues have taken a particular course in the Lower House and if the need for a debate or statements in this House should arise from the Dáil motion of no confidence, I ask the Leader to provide time next week. In the context of the decisions announced in the Taoiseach's speech yesterday, the Whips may feel the issue is worth discussing.

A request for a debate on the estimates for local authorities has been made several times. We have heard in the corridors of this House and read in interviews in newspapers — for example, the Tánaiste's interview on 6 October in the Sunday Independent— that a radical reform of service charges is needed. Those of us involved in the preparation of the estimates of local authorities find that the estimate may need to be radically changed when the Minister for Finance introduces his budget in January and sets out the amount provided for local authority funding. I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to state his position on local authority funding because it is my view that the estimates are impossible to achieve within the 21 days statutory notice as there is no certainty where and how local authorities are to be funded in the new year.

Professor Lee

Níl deacracht againn le ordaithe an lae. I warmly welcome the proposal to have a debate on the role of the Seanad. I ask the Leader — I know he is making Herculean efforts in this direction — to improve the efficiency with which we transact our business by giving as much notice as possible of the date on which that debate will be held. Is the Leader in a position to give a response to the question raised by Senator Quinn last week as to when we can have a debate on the White Paper on science technology and innovation?

Ms O'Sullivan

I also welcome the indication from the Leader that we are to have a debate on the Seanad. I welcome the fact that it is to be a structured debate and that there will be discussion among the various parties as to how it should be organised. I also support Senator Wright's call for a discussion on local government and its financing. There were several calls over the last couple of weeks about that and the Leader has indicated that he will organise such a debate.

On the last point raised by Senator Lee, I would welcome a debate on the White Paper on science and technology. I am sure Senator Daly joins with me this morning in welcoming the announcement of 750 jobs in Dell——

Mr. Daly

Why? We have lost the Gilogue jobs.

Ms O'Sullivan

I will refer to that in a moment. A few weeks ago, Senator Daly raised the question of the loss of jobs in Verbatim and I too am concerned. He made the point that local public representatives had a role to play. That is true but whether we are talking about good or bad news, their role is small when it comes to decisions by multinational companies. We too are concerned about the American Power Corporation. We do not know for sure yet whether the jobs in south-east Clare will go ahead.

Mr. Daly

They have gone to Castlebar.

Ms O'Sullivan

There is a need for a wider debate on science and technology and on regional specialisation in relation to job creation, specifically in relation to multinationals. Last week I attended a conference where delegates from a number of European countries raised that issue. I believe it would be useful to broaden the debate.

Mr. McGowan

I support my Leader's call for a debate on local authority funding. The estimates of my local authority in Donegal are now being considered. I will not make a speech about these estimates.

An Cathaoirleach

I am glad to hear it.

Mr. McGowan

I support the call that the debate on local authority funding take place as soon as possible. Most Members of this House are elected by local authority members and it behoves us to be seen to be concerned about their problems. I wish to highlight one such problem. The estimate states that "£100,000 will be available for a Ballybofey and Stranorlar sewerage scheme".

Mr. Cotter

That was more than we got.

Mr. McGowan

That sewerage scheme was announced in 1995 from INTERREG funding of £1,900,000; it was announced about ten times during the Donegal by-election in 1996.

Mr. Magner

We learned that from the Senator's party.

An Cathaoirleach

A question on today's Order of Business.

Mr. McGowan

INTERREG funding of £1.9 million was announced in 1995 and according to the local estimate, a sum of £100,000 has been approved. This is not enough to mark out the site.

Mr. Sherlock

Hence the need for reform of the Seanad.

An Cathaoirleach

I ask the Senator to put a question on today's Order of Business.

Mr. McGowan

That is a measure of the confusion which——

Mr. Belton

This is unbelievable.

Mr. Cotter

It is like being in the chamber of Donegal County Council.

Mr. Belton

Today is Wednesday, not Monday.

Mr. McGowan

The Government has suffered enough injury this week without looking for more——

An Cathaoirleach

I ask Senator McGowan to put a question on today's Order of Business to the Leader.

Mr. McGowan

I am trying to do so but I am being interrupted; I ask for your protection, a Chathaoirligh.

Mr. Magner

So do we.

Mr. McGowan

When can we have a debate on the funding of local authorities? There is no point in having that debate when the Estimates have been finalised. Confusion prevails in rural Ireland today.

Mr. McDonagh

This year has been designated as the European Year of Life Long Learning. In that context, will the Leader impress upon the Minister for Education the need to establish in the forthcoming legislation a statutory body to deal with adult education? One third of people in the EU find it very difficult to make the transition from school to employment. This matter must be looked at and I appeal to the Minister to set up a body to look after that facet of education.

Will the Leader also impress upon the Minister the importance of providing extra funding for the ALCE budget, that is, the adult literacy and community education schemes run by vocational education committees throughout the country? They do marvellous work with limited funds. I appeal to the Minister to provide extra funding in the Estimates for this section of education.

Mr. Norris

I welcome the indication that we will have a debate on the Seanad. It is timely for this House to discuss its future composition, role and so forth in the light of the various comments and reports issued about it. Some of those comments have been quite irritating, such as the suggestion by Deputy Jim Mitchell that my constituency should be abolished, with which I am naturally scarcely inclined to agree. It is important for us to be involved in the consultation. Most of us have received letters from Deputy Jim O'Keeffe seeking our views. I had intended to send him copies of a previous debate on reform of the Seanad but it would be far better if I could send him an updated one.

My colleague, Senator O'Toole, has consistently mentioned over the last month his irritation at traffic being held up by motorcades for European bureaucrats. I did not join in at that stage but I would now like to make the House aware that this does not only involved Eurocrats. Last week I was prevented from attending a vote of the House because it took me an hour to get from North Great Georges Street to Leinster House. I thought it was because of a bomb but it was the premiere of the "Michael Collins" film. Whatever about European parliamentarians, it is a little odd that the main thoroughfare of a capital city was blocked off for several hours simply to facilitate a film premiere.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Mr. Magner

Senator Norris should not be such a spoilsport.

Mr. Norris

Following in the wake of my good friend and colleague, Senator McGowan, I regret to tell the House that I have no update on the sewerage system in North Great Georges Street, but I will do my best to amend that for the Order of Business next week.

Mr. Fitzgerald

I hope item I will conclude today. The Minister has accepted a number of amendments for Report Stage. In view of this, should there be a sos between Committee Stage and Report Stage?

On the question of the proposed debate on the review of the Constitution, is it the intention to consider solely the Seanad or the entirety of the report? We all received letters from Deputy Jim O'Keeffe requesting that we submit our comments in writing; he suggested a deadline for the end of the month. This is too little time. Perhaps it should be extended as far as the Christmas recess.

Mr. Calnan

Will the Minister for Health and the Minister for Education attend the House to debate the position regarding the young disabled, especially in rural areas? The debate should cover the funding and staffing of special classes and transport for the disabled in scattered rural areas which is causing a big problem for parents. The question of domiciliary care allowance, entitlement to medical cards and tax free allowances for the disabled has been neglected and we should debate it.

Mr. Finneran

Will the Minister for the Environment attend the House to explain service charges because the situation regarding estimates around the country is a shambles and the matter must be resolved. We cannot have members of the parties in Government telling the people in cities that there will be no service charges while others must impose charges to carry out the functions of the local authorities. Surely there is a responsibility on the Minister here?

I compliment the Taoiseach on his vote of confidence in the Minister for Justice by emasculating the Department of Justice and making it a Department that deals with land registry and mitigation of fines.

An Cathaoirleach

A question for the Leader.

Mr. Belton

What about telephone tapping?

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Finneran without interruption.

Mr. Finneran

Will the Leader bring to the attention of the Minister for Health the figures produced by the Western Health Board this week indicating that 20,000 people are on waiting lists in its area? This represents a crisis in Counties Galway, Roscommon and Mayo and it is a matter the Minister must address shortly.

The White Paper on mental health was published 12 months ago but the Minister and the Minister of State have failed to bring it to the House although I have requested a debate for the past ten months. It is time the Minister debated it or introduced legislation. The White Paper identifies problems in the mental health——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing this now. You are seeking to debate it.

Mr. Finneran

I have been seeking a debate for ten months. Mental treatment and mental health are dealt with under legislation that has been in existence for 50 years. The Minister has the White Paper on mental health and it is time it was discussed. Will the Leader arrange for a debate in the House or ask that legislation be introduced?

Mr. Howard

I join other Members in welcoming the Leader's announcement that the House will have an opportunity soon to debate its role. This is a necessary development. There was constructive debate in 1991 during which positive proposals were made, but only a few were eventually implemented. There was a more recent discussion on the role of the House and the level of interest at that time was far below that which prevailed in the earlier discussion. It is our fault if we have allowed outside experts to comment on the performance of the House. We live in an evolving society and we should measure and recommend the adaptations, progress and changes which should be made in the House. A debate on the role of the House is timely and anybody with knowledge of its performance will recognise that its role over the years has been effective and honourable.

Three and a half years ago the House unanimously agreed to call on the Department of Enterprise and Employment to review the Copyright Act, 1963. This decision was accepted by the then Minister, Deputy Séamus Brennan. Will the Leader outline what progress has been made on that undertaking to the House?

The debate on the single currency cannot be soon enough because business is being distracted by confusing signals from so called experts in this field. The net effect is that business has sat back and failed to prepare for what will be inevitable between 1 January 1997 and 1 January 1999.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is supporting a call for a debate. We are not discussing the matter today.

Mr. Howard

I am calling for an urgent debate in view of the damage that is being done to the preparations which should be made by business for this important event.

Mr. Farrell

Regarding Senator McGowan's point about the scheme, perhaps the Minister's office forgot to date stamp it or post it. The Senator should ask them to look for it.

Mr. Belton

They are on the telephone.

An Cathaoirleach

A question on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Farrell

I support the call for a debate on service charges. This is the third occasion on which I have raised this matter. The local authority in Sligo adopted its estimates last Monday. If water charges are abolished, we hope we will get full credit for the level of charges which were assessed for the county and that we will not end up carrying the can. This is a hot issue and I ask the Leader to invite the Minister to the House to state whether he will abolish water charges. It does not affect my authority this year because it has adopted its estimates.

Mr. Magner

We will tell the Senator in a minute.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is supporting the call for a debate on the matter.

Ms O'Sullivan

What about devolution?

Mr. Farrell

We want to know what is happening. There appears to be an ongoing argument in the Department.

Mr. Magner

I will relate the argument as well.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Farrell on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Farrell

There appears to be an ongoing debate in Government that water charges must be abolished.

Mrs. McGennis

People do not know what is happening.

An Cathaoirleach

Senator Farrell, a question on today's Order of Business.

Mr. Belton

A manifesto.

Mr. Farrell

Members received a report this morning from the working party on alcohol abuse. I ask the Leader to arrange a debate on the report because the abuse of alcohol is a greater scourge than drugs.

Mr. Bohan

It depends how much one drinks.

Mr. Farrell

The abuse of alcohol is the scourge, not the use.

Mr. Enright

There is a split in Fianna Fáil this morning.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter now. Is the Senator seeking a debate on that report?

Mr. Farrell

People realise it is a serious problem, otherwise a working group would not have been set up to examine it.

Mr. Magner

I ask my colleague to remember another date — 1977 when the structure of local authority finances was destroyed. I join with Senator Wright and others in calling for such a debate. However, the Minister for the Environment, Deputy Howlin, invited Fianna Fáil to sit down with him to draw up a radical proposal to restructure local authorities, including their financing but it declined. If Fianna Fáil Senators want a debate, perhaps this time they will help solve the problem. This Government will not take any action which will jeopardise the interests of this State at local or national level.

In case Senator Norris's remarks are taken out of context, this has been the most underplayed EU Presidency in the history of the State as far as motorcades are concerned. Nobody can say they have been discommoded by the EU Presidency held by this Government. The old raj is gone.

Mrs. McGennis

Is everyone flying?

Mr. Magner

It was necessary to point that out. I second the estimates for Donegal County Council.

Mr. Daly

I express my disappointment that the plan to create 300 jobs in Clonlara, east Clare, will not go ahead. It looks as if the jobs earmarked for Clonlara will be diverted to Castlebar.

Mr. Burke

They were always for Castlebar.

Mr. Daly

That is news to me because the Minister made numerous announcements that it was the intention to go ahead in Gilogue where the plant lies vacant as Senator O'Sullivan will be aware. This, coming on top of the loss of the Verbatim jobs, is a serious blow to people seeking employment opportunities in the Clare-Limerick area.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator should find another way to raise that issue.

Mr. Daly

When I raised the issue of Government action in the industrial area some time ago, the Leader indicated a willingness to arrange for the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to come here to outline the procedure in this area. Although there are various organisations and agencies, there is no indications that they have been effective. While there has been a spate of announcements in the past year——

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing that matter today.

Mr. Daly

——it is obvious that jobs are not being created. Gilogue is a typical example of where a number of announcements were made about jobs which have not been created.

An Cathaoirleach

That is not relevant to today's Order of Business.

Mr. Daly

It is relevant. Will the Leader indicate if we can have a debate on this?

An Cathaoirleach

Is the Senator seeking a debate on industrial policy?

Mr. Daly

Will the Leader allow time for the Minister for Enterprise and Employment to come here to indicate what is taking place in the industrial area? There have been a number of announcements made about jobs which have not been created.

It is disturbing to read in this morning's newspapers that the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers has stated publicly that there has been an almost total breakdown between them and the Department of Defence. It seems likely that that Department is heading down the same road as the Department of Justice.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter today. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Mr. Daly

I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Defence to come into this House to give us an indication of what is happening in the Army. The Minister was to make a statement some days ago but was unable to do so because of the debate in the Dáil. There is growing concern in the Army.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter and I am not allowing a debate. The Senator has put his question to the Leader who knows precisely what it is.

Mr. Daly

I conclude by asking the Leader to emphasise the urgency involved as there has been a breakdown between the Army and the Department of Defence.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter.

Mr. Daly

I am being interrupted.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator is making a speech.

Mr. Daly

I am not making a speech. I am making a point. This is serious.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made his point and I ask him to resume his seat.

Mr. Daly

The Leader should make time available to discuss the matter.

An Cathaoirleach

That is the Senator's third time asking.

Mr. Daly

It is obviously not sinking in.

Mr. Enright

As the House is aware, there was a problem with the insurance brokerage firm, Taylor Group Limited, recently when the senior partner and owner went missing. Another problem has arisen with the firm of Reynolds and Company, who are investment brokers. This too was in the newspapers. I ask the Leader to allow a debate on this problem that would lead to legislation. The problem is twofold.

First, there are insurance brokers. Some of them have bonding but a number who were acting as insurance brokers have moved into the investment areas and they are investing large sums of money.

An Cathaoirleach

We are not discussing the matter. Does the Senator have a question for the Leader?

Mr. Enright

That is why I hoped I would be allowed to discuss this. I am seeking a debate to see how those involved in insurance brokerage conduct their business and how those who invest with them can be happy about their investment. There are two firms already in difficulty and those involved in this business are anxious that their good name is upheld. It is also essential to have proper safeguards for the general public if they are investing in these firms.

Mrs. McGennis

A report on the effects of domestic violence and sexual abuse commissioned by the National Women's Council was recently presented to the Minister for Justice. I ask the Leader to have the Minister come into the House to debate the recommendations in that report, if she has not lost it.

Second, on the Defence Forces, there were recent newspaper headlines suggesting there were not enough Army personnel to serve on UN duties. When he comes into the House the Minister for Defence should address the issue of women soldiers who have been refused permission to serve on UN duties. There seems to be a contradiction there.

Mr. Townsend

I call on the Leader to arrange a debate on the milk quota system. I have asked about this before and the situation is getting serious. Approximately 35 per cent of milk is produced by dormant milk producers, that is, people who do not keep cows, and that number is rising. At the same time, young people are paying 50p a gallon for the producing milk. This affects the consumers. They are paying more for milk than they should because of all the systems that have been built in. If the quota system collapsed the effects would be worse than the BSE crisis because many who have invested heavily in dairy hygiene would have serious problems. We should discuss that in this House because the situation is getting worse.

Mr. Mooney

I support calls for the Minister for the Environment to bring forward his proposals on local government funding. I am glad this has been raised because the county manager of Leitrim County Council is attempting to introduce an extra service charge on sewerage as it does not have sufficient finance. Councillors on all sides of the political divide are confused and doubt whether there is a logical reason for allowing the county manager to introduce this charge in light of the current debate. Confusion will be widespread until the Minister for the Environment brings forward proposals, even if they are only interim proposals. I appreciate it is a complex issue but if he has the proposals ready, he should come here first as Members of this House are in closer contact with county councils than those in the other House and there will be a much more positive debate here.

I support Senator Howard's call for copyright reform. Will the Leader ask the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, not to forget the copyright Bill despite his heavy legislative load? He gave commitments here in July and said that he was aware of the concern in the industry.

There is much concern about the lack of availability of Teilifís na Gaeilge despite the hype associated with its introduction. It is increasingly difficult to obtain its signal because of the location of transmitters throughout the country. Will the Leader convey this concern to the Minister for Arts, Culture and the Gaeltacht? He may be able to initiate a scheme if there is a necessity to purchase new aerials whereby a subsidy could be introduced so that the majority of the general public will receive this excellent service.

Mr. Manning

The House will sit during the week of the bail referendum, but if Members wish to have time off to canvass that can be arranged between the Whips. I will discuss the possibility of a further debate on the Department of Justice next week with the Leader of the Opposition.

A number of Senators raised the question of local authority financing. I promised a debate on it and I will try to have a date for it tomorrow or at the beginning of next week at the latest. I agree that the points raised are valid and in some cases urgent. The debate on the role of the Seanad has been generally welcomed and I will give Senators notice on a timetable for that. Senator Fitzgerald raised the question of a debate on the Constitution. That will happen in the new year and not before the end of this session.

I will arrange a date for a debate on the White Paper on science and technology. I will convey Senator McDonagh's points to the Minister as they are worth discussing. Senator Norris, as ever, took a broad view on the role of Seanad reform and I am glad he will not be giving the House a weekly update on the sewerage scheme in North Great George's Street. Senator Fitzgerald had a question on item 1. It is proposed to finish Committee Stage today and Report Stage is provisionally scheduled for 27 November.

Senator Fitzgerald also raised the question of the timing of our debate on Seanad reform. It would be right that the contributions sought should not be made until after we have had time to reflect on and discuss the issues, and I will convey that view to Deputy O'Keeffe. There will be no Minister present obviously because it is a matter for ourselves but it might be appropriate, with the agreement of other parties, to invite Deputy O'Keeffe to sit in on that debate.

Senator Calnan raised the question of young disabled. It would be an important subject for a debate and if I can, I will facilitate him.

Senator Finneran raised the question of local authority funding and I will have a date for that debate. He again raised the question of a debate on mental health. If the legislation is not about to appear fairly soon, a debate on the White Paper would be reasonable and I will try to arrange that.

Senator Howard raised the question of the Copyright Act, 1963, and I will seek information on that matter. As I said before, the debate on the currency issue is provisionally scheduled for 4 December. Senator Farrell's proposal for a short debate on alcohol abuse is worthwhile and a series of short debates on issues of this kind would be useful. I will see what can be done about that.

Senator Daly wants a debate on industrial policy. That is reasonable. Perhaps he can find a suitable form of wording for it. He also wants a debate on current developments within the Defence Forces. I will contact the Minister to see if that can be arranged. I am sure it can.

Senator Enright raised the question of brokerage and the investment industry. I would be very happy to make my party's next Private Members' Time available to the Senator so he will have plenty of time to explore the issues and get answers.

Senators are raising important topics which are worthy of debate on a regular basis. At the Committee on a Procedure and Privileges, I may be able to find some procedure to facilitate short one hour debates on important issues, such as the matter Senator McGennis raised. The report on domestic violence and sexual abuse is worth a short focused debate and I will see if we can find some procedure whereby such debates can be taken on a regular basis because these reports should be debated in this House.

There will be a debate in the next couple of weeks on the dairy industry. I expect it will be fairly wide ranging and Senator Townsend could raise his points then.

On the question of the signal for Teilifís na Gaeilge, Senator Mooney is in a good position to raise that directly with the people who are responsible, RTÉ, but I will convey the Senator's disquite to the Minister.

Order of Business agreed to.