The Order of Business is Nos. 1 and 21, motion 16. On No. 1, Committee Stage of the Planning and Development Bill, 1999, (resumed), business will be interrupted from 1 p.m. to 1.45 p.m. No. 21, motion 16 will be taken from 6 p.m. to 8 p.m., No. 1 to be resumed thereafter.
Order of Business.
Will the Leader indicate how long No. 1 will be resumed after Private Members' business?
It may be all night.
It may be forever after. Will the Leader clarify that point now?
The Leader will reply.
The Central Statistics Office has published its quarterly national household survey and for the first time in several years it contains information on crime. There is a huge disparity between the figures in the survey and those issued last year by the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform and the Garda Síochána. The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform is a frequent visitor to this House because of the legislation he has introduced, both this year and last. He has always presented figures on how successful he has been in reducing the levels of crime since he was appointed Minister. Can he explain the huge discrepancies in these figures?
The CSO report indicates that there were 280,000 instances of crime last year, while the Department has indicated there were 150,000 instances. The CSO report also indicates that 12 per cent of households nationally – the figure in Dublin is 20 per cent – have been victims of burglary, theft or some form of crime. Will the Leader ask the Minister to attend the House before the Christmas recess to discuss this issue?
On the Order of Business, my understanding was that the Planning and Development Bill would be taken until 6 p.m. and that the House would then assess whether it wished to continue. It was not my understanding that it would be decided to continue after 8 p.m. It is the view on this side of the House that this is too long a stretch unless there is agreement to proceed.
It is ridiculous.
There is a pile of correspondence in my office on the Telecommunications (Infrastructure) Bill. People telephone me every week asking what has happened to it and if I have put down amendments. The Government should let us know if it intends to proceed with the Bill so that we can inform people accordingly. Will the Leader indicate the present position?
It is crucially important that we get our house in order on the Shannon river council. If everything goes well, a new Assembly and Executive will be established in Northern Ireland this time next week. The North-South Bodies provisions will also be implemented. One of these will be an authority dealing with inland waterways. People in the North have got their act together with the Erne commission and various other bodies to look after their interests. There is no similar body in the south. This is inept and incompetent government. It is beyond a joke. If we do not get our act together and proceed it could turn out to be a regressive matter in dealing with North-South Bodies.
There is also dissatisfaction on this side of the House with the proposal to continue with the Planning and Development Bill beyond 8 p.m. It is a long enough stint from 11 a.m. until 6 p.m. with only 45 minutes for a lunch break. It is unfair to the people who have to be in attendance for such long hours. Yesterday the Bill was deliberated on for four and a half hours and by 6 p.m. today it will have been deliberated on for a further seven hours. That is long enough. To go beyond that is unfair to the Senators dealing with the legislation, to the Minster, the officials and the staff of the House. We will oppose that proposal.
Senator Ryan said the national development plan was not so much valuable in itself as for the material it contained. Likewise, the CSO quarterly household survey contains valuable statistics. The discrepancy between the reported and actual incidence of crime is very striking. While nationally 12 per cent of people say they were victims of crime in the past 12 months, this rises to 20 per cent in the case of Dublin. That is a ratio of one in five. If we take the figures on a five year basis we are talking, on a theoretical level, about a situation where every citizen has been the victim of crime. At the same time we are told there has been a substantial decrease in the incidence of crime. We have called upon the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform on several occasions to come before the House to discuss various issues. We are calling upon him again to come to this House to clarify this very serious matter and explain the steps he will take to bridge the gap between reported crime and actual crime.
It would be useful if we asked the Minister to come to the House so that we could have a debate on crime. He would be able to point to a very good record since he took office in terms of dealing with crime and the problems in our prisons. I concede that discrepancies exist between the figures published by the Central Statistics Office household survey and those reported by the Garda Siochána. It is notable that an international expert on this matter this morning said that by international standards the discrepancy in Ireland was small relative to other countries. That also takes into account unreported crime. There was a difference in relation to burglaries in that the CSO survey reported approximately 53,000 burglaries while the Garda reported 28,000. Nevertheless, some of the differences can be explained. It would be useful if we could discuss this issue in some detail and to point to the acknowledged reduction in crime. The Garda will confirm that fact to any public representative.
I thank the Leader for holding a debate yesterday evening on the anti-smoking strategy. I also wish to express my disappointment with the Minister's response.
It is not in order for the Senator to rehash a debate that has taken place.
I am not rehashing the debate.
The House has no control over the Minister's reply.
It is strange that this House has no control over the Minister's reply. I do not know how what was supposed to be a motion ended up as statements which were totally irrelevant to the debate. I am requesting that the Minister give an early response to the ADHD report and not engage in the type of irrelevant debate we had last evening. I hope the Leader will bring that matter to the attention of the Minister.
I raised a matter on the Adjournment recently about the discrepancies in crime figures in the Limerick area. It is claimed that 45 per cent of crime is unreported. That raises the question as to whether people no longer think it is worth their while reporting crime or have lost faith in the system. It is essential that the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform come before this House to discuss our concerns.
I wish to move an amendment to the Order of Business that consideration of the Planning and Development Bill, 1999 end at 6 p.m. to be resumed another day and that we take a humane lunch period from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. I do not see why we have to chop a quarter of an hour off our lunch time. On the last few occasions that we had these miserly allocations of time, the Minister was not present. Let us be realistic, let us for once treat ourselves with just a modicum of respect. It appears the Government is trying to push this Bill through with undue haste. The Minister has been reasonable and flexible on most issues but made it perfectly clear that he is absolutely adamantine about the fee issue.
Could the Senator repeat that word please?
I will write it down.
Senator Norris, without interruption.
(Interruptions).
That is for Senator Ryan, who did not have the benefit of a Trinity education as he repeatedly tells the House. It is open to mature students without any previous qualifications if the Senator would like to apply.
And Senator Norris spoke about—
Order, please.
(Interruptions).
Will the Leader give the House a precise date for the promised debate on asylum seekers? He indicated the other day that he would give us a clear and firm date on this matter and for that reason I did not push a vote. It has been discussed in the other House and we in this House want to discuss it while it is still relevant.
I asked the Leader of the House last week if he could arrange to bring the Minister for Health and Children to this House so that we could discuss the issue of the increasing number of people being diagnosed with and dying of cancer. There is further professional evidence that a great deal more needs to be done within the ambit of the health services for the early diagnosis of cancer and its treatment. This is a very serious issue, more serious than many issues often raised here. If the Leader could arrange to have that debate before Christmas it would be appreciated.
I second the amendment to the Order of Business as proposed by Senator Norris. It is not unreasonable to request an hour's break for lunch.
We need to take stock of how we order business. The Planning and Development Bill, 1999, contains 245 sections. On the last count there were 345 amendments tabled to it. Obviously this is a very important Bill, the most far reaching in 20 years. Many Members are concerned about the issues involved. It will take quite a while to pass through both Houses. I spoke last night to the main Opposition Whip in the Dáil who indicated to me that there is no way this Bill will be returning to that House before Christmas.
The Bill contains 245 sections and I presume a great deal of work went into it. Despite that, Government amendments are still arriving from the Department. We received over 40 new amendments yesterday, about 50 or 60 last week and more the week before. We begin to wonder if the Bill should have been formally published.
We need to look again at how we do our business. We commenced business yesterday with the Planning and Development Bill, 1999, and then went on to a debate on smoking. We are debating the Planning and Development Bill again today and tomorrow we will debate the Companies (Amendment) Bill. I have not received as many representations about the Companies (Amendment) Bill as I have on the Planning and Development Bill. We must be fair to Members and staff. Rumours were rife last night that we were to sit until midnight tonight and possibly until 3 a.m. or 4 a.m. How would staff get home? Perhaps in the invisible taxis promised by the Government or are we to hire a Dáil link bus? We need to look again at what we are doing. Senator Ryan has referred on many occasions to people having family and other commitments. We should take stock of that. We should have proper consultation about the ordering of business.
Senator Norris requested a debate on asylum seekers. I addressed the question of why we have asylum seekers but I did not receive an answer to my request for a debate. I join with Senator Norris in seeking a proper debate on the reasons people are seeking asylum in Ireland and why, when they arrive, they are not properly treated.
I cannot understand the points raised by Senator Norris in relation to the hours of business. The Leader of the House suggested that the Planning Bill be resumed after 8 p.m. Yesterday the Senator was going to commons or he wanted a sandwich but today he wants a set time. I am surprised that Senator Cosgrave is also seeking a set time. The Leader is right that if we need to sit after 8 p.m. we will do so. The Leader is quite right.
Mr. Ryan
While I am never one to subscribe to any of the usual crime hysteria and I will not start now, yesterday's report was enlightening in many ways. It would be worthwhile to have a debate for which the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform would be present because gardaí are refusing to use computers – the rest of us regard them as an asset which makes our lives easier, but the gardaí want to be paid more for their lives being made easier. The rest of the public service has been calling out for access to computers. For example, for many years the people Senator O'Toole represents have felt deprived because of the absence of proper computer equipment. There have been no prison reports because, apparently, there are no computers in the prisons to computerise the data. There is the debacle of asylum seekers. Prisons have been opened by the Minister but prisoners cannot be held there because the builders forgot to finish the prisons. There are many reasons to have a debate on the role of the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. He was very good at blaming everybody else.
There are currently eight or nine Seanad Bills before the Dáil, some of which date back to 1998. I predict that at some time between now and Christmas the Leader will come here with a number of Dáil Bills which will have to be passed, not in the first week of January but in the two weeks before Christmas, because the Dáil expects this House to pass its legislation once it disposes of it. It is time we informed the other House that if it cannot do its business it should change the way it does its business. I am tired of Members of this House working hard going through Bill after Bill, some of which are almost two years old, and when they are sent to the other House they sit there for two years. That is not the way business should be conducted by the Houses of the Oireachtas. If the other House is not prepared to deal with legislation when it is forwarded to it then we should not convenience it by dealing with the legislation in a way which rushes us.
I am sorry that some Members do not agree that those working in the Houses of the Oireachtas should have civilised hours. It is a basic definition of civilised life that one knows when one starts and finishes work. For that reason, I am happy to support Senator Norris's amendment. I will never accept an open ended schedule.
The reason we have asylum seekers is because we are rich and they are poor, and it is about time people recognised that as the fundamental issue.
The Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform, Deputy O'Donoghue, has introduced more legislation during his short time in office than any other Minister for Justice. I support Senator Quill's call for a debate on cancer. As one who has been there and back I see the need for it. Statistics show that in certain parts of this country the rate of cancer is higher than in others and that cancer is on the increase. The Minister for Health and Children has put measures and financial resources in place but I am sad that the resources are not being put in place as they ought to. I support the call for an urgent debate. It is essential.
Will the Leader ask the Minister for the Marine and Natural Resources to come to the House as soon as possible to report on the successful outcome of yesterday's meeting of EU Fisheries Ministers? I congratulate the Minister, Deputy Woods, on being successful in his opposition to the attempted imposition of a provision where any new vessel owners would have to replace tonnage not with its equivalent but by 130 per cent. Our industry has suffered much at the hands of the EU over the years and this additional imposition would have curtailed any further development of the industry. The Minister is to be congratulated on his success.
In response to Senators Connor, Costello, O'Toole, Norris, Ryan and Lanigan on the working hours of the House today, I can agree to extend the sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m. With regard to working late, I propose that the leaders of the groups review progress during the afternoon.
I take on board the various views of Senators who are taking a keen interest in the planning Bill and, as many of them said, to date the House has spent 18 hours on Committee Stage and continuing up to 6 p.m. today will bring that total to 25 hours. This is significant legislation and, as far as I know, over the past 20 years, it has attracted the most amendments. Naturally, the Government wants to bring Committee Stage to a conclusion as soon as possible but under no circumstances will the Bill be guillotined in the House. I have to bear in mind that if Senators are working long hours, so too are the Minister and his colleagues.
As Senator Norris quite rightly said, the Minister was very forthcoming and agreeable to listen to Members' points of view and to take some of them on board. Having listened to Senator Ryan's contribution on unsocial working hours, I think both Houses are probably long overdue a review of their working procedures. It might not be a bad idea if, on a trial basis, we were to start work at 9 a.m. on Monday and maybe finish at noon on Thursday to see how that would progress.
Senators
Hear, hear.
A splendid idea.
Order please, for the Leader to reply.
There are many—
There will be time for lunch on Thursday.
Mr. Ryan
The Leader is here all the time.
Many Members are used to getting up early in the morning and working hard during the day and they must be considered in this Seanad review. I have decided to allow a full day for statements on Seanad reform on Friday, 3 December and I hope to be present for all contributions. I will then consider this with the Government Chief Whip over the Christmas recess to try to facilitate as many Members as possible in their working hours. However, as has been pointed out by Senator Ryan, there have been occasions when Leaders of this House, from whichever political party, have had to deal with legislation which was brought forward at the last minute and this year will probably be no different.
Why are we wasting time drivelling about Seanad reform?
It is not good manners, particularly coming from a highly educated Member of the House, to interrupt the Leader in such a fashion. This is a very important weekend in the history of our country. Major decisions are being taken which will affect future generations. It is possible that additional legislation might have to be brought before the House and Senators will have to understand that.
I will come back to Senator O'Toole on the telecommunications Bill and I take his point in that regard. I will consider a way of returning to the Shannon River Council Bill, especially in the context of the North-South bodies. Personally, I think it is good legislation, which was initiated here by former Senators Brendan Daly and Michael O'Kennedy, both of whom are former distinguished Ministers. I will come back to the House as soon as I have word on this.
Senator Norris and Senator Lanigan called for a debate on asylum seekers. I am pleased to inform the House this will take place next Tuesday at 2.30 p.m.
Good.
A debate on adult literacy was called for by many Senators.
Literacy.
Senator O'Toole, in particular, and Senator Ormonde have an interest in this. This will also be taken in the House in the latter part of Tuesday evening next.
That is adult and children's literacy.
Correct.
I thank the Leader.
Senator Quill and Senator Callanan called for a debate on cancer. As I promised already, I will provide time to have this debated in the House at the earliest opportunity.
Senator Norris has moved an amendment to the Order of Business, but the Leader has amended his proposal in relation to the interruption of business and has proposed that business be interrupted between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m. Senator Norris, do you wish to proceed with the remaining part of your amendment, which is that business should not resume after the conclusion of the debate on No. 21, motion 16?
I recognise there has been flexibility from the Leader and I appreciate that, but he has not really satisfied me about the main point, which is the debate, and I am sorry about that. I do not want to be truculent but I feel strongly about it.
Amendment put.
Tá
|
Burke, Paddy.Caffrey, Ernie.Connor, John.Coogan, Fintan.Cosgrave, Liam T.Costello, Joe.Cregan, Denis (Dino).Doyle, Joe.Hayes, Tom. |
Jackman, Mary.McDonagh, Jarlath.Norris, David.O'Dowd, Fergus.O'Meara, Kathleen.O'Toole, Joe.Ryan, Brendan.Taylor-Quinn, Madeleine. |
Níl
|
Bohan, Eddie.Bonner, Enda.Callanan, Peter.Cassidy, Donie.Cregan, John.Dardis, John.Farrell, Willie.Finneran, Michael.Fitzgerald, Liam.Fitzgerald, Tom.Fitzpatrick, Dermot.Gibbons, Jim.Glynn, Camillus. |
Keogh, Helen.Kett, Tony.Kiely, Rory.Lanigan, Mick.Leonard, Ann.Lydon, Don.Mooney, Paschal.Moylan, Pat.O'Brien, Francis.Ó Murchú, Labhrás.Ormonde, Ann.Quill, Máirín.Walsh, Jim. |
Tellers: Tá, Senators Norris and Cosgrave; Níl, Senators T. Fitzgerald and Keogh.
Amendment declared lost.
Question, "That the Order of Business be agreed to", put and declared carried.