The Order of Business is No. 1, An Bord Bia (Amendment) Bill 2003 — Committee Stage to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and conclude not later than 12.15 p.m. If Members wish to take Report and Final Stages, and if there is time, that will be in order; No. 2, statements on the third interim report of the Commission to Inquire into Child Abuse to be taken at 12.15 p.m. and to conclude at 2 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed ten minutes and those of other Senators not to exceed eight minutes, and Members may share time; No. 3, Equality Bill 2004 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage to be taken at 3 p.m. and to conclude at 5 p.m., with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 12 minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes, and Members may share time, the Minister to be called on to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage; and No. 15, motion No. 21, in the name of the Independents, to be taken from 5 p.m. to 7 p.m. There will be a sos between 2 p.m. and 3 p.m.
Order of Business.
I welcome the inclusion of No. 2 on the Order Paper today and thank the Leader for organising a debate on the very damning report from Ms Justice Laffoy on the Government's handling of the whole child abuse saga. Is the Leader making provision at the end of the debate for a brief question and answer session where Members can put questions directly to the Minister in charge as happened in the other House yesterday evening? It would be useful if that could be organised. It is worth noting that we are spending a greater period today debating this matter than the other House did yesterday. A report so critical of the Government's handling of this entire issue should be debated fulsomely in the House. I ask that a question and answer session be included, if at all possible.
I want to raise with the Leader the issue of electronic voting. Before we go beyond the point of no return, it is very important that the Government, through the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, makes a statement in this House today because, while many of us are in favour of the principle of electronic voting and want to see it introduced, it is vital that there is cross-party confidence and support in the process. It is unbelievable that the Minister sponsoring the measure is himself director of elections for the main Government party in this year's local government elections. That is unacceptable — it would not happen in Bolivia or Haiti.
The Senator should show some humility.
The Minister has no difficulty with humility. I am sure he is well able to take it.
On 18 December last, the joint committee responsible for this matter met and a total of 42 questions were put to the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government. To date, none of those questions has been answered by the Minister or his officials. It is very important that a free and fair voting procedure which we all respect is supported by all parties. I further point out to the Leader that in the United States of America following the fiasco of Florida in the last presidential election, all new voting machines must give a receipt to each voter. The paper trail, therefore, can be followed.
Many questions must be answered in this regard. It is important that the public and all parties in both Houses give it full support but that support cannot currently be given because the remaining questions have not been answered.
Last week, there was a perfect example of how badly the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform does its business and tries to interfere with the running of this House.
Hear, hear.
It is worthwhile that we should keep an eye on how it does its business. Members from all sides of the House — the wisdom is not just on this side — have raised on several occasions in recent weeks the issue of the huge level of crime. I have just checked the situation. Is the House aware that there have been 200 early releases from our prisons in the first two weeks of last month and of the impact that is having? There are 500 people at large. Apparently, the A wing of Mountjoy Prison has been re-opened despite being closed 18 months ago because it was substandard. A tin of paint or an ounce of Polyfilla has not been applied to it in the meantime; it has simply been re-opened. Prisoners are on mattresses in Castlerea. This is all because the Minister and his Department cannot sort out what is going on. Perhaps these issues relate to prisoners' rights and I will leave them to one side.
The man murdered last week in Fatima Mansions was let out after serving just four years of a ten year sentence. That is absolutely appalling, and that should be said by all sides. One of those involved in the alleged rape in Ennis has been released from Limerick Prison to make space for the prisoners being taken from Spike Island. What is going on is appalling and we will pay a price for it with people being raped and murdered. This is all because the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform cannot do its business, run its operations or deal with industrial relations. It is time we told the Minister to come to the House to account for his Department and to tell us what exactly is going on in our prisons at present, how we can be sure that people are safe on the streets and the consequences and impact of his Department's inefficiency and incapacity to deal with the problems with which it is charged. It is an appalling situation and the Minister should come to the House to explain himself.
I agree totally with Senator Brian Hayes's point regarding electronic voting systems. If Members opposite are interested, I will show them the websites where they can read reports on failures of the new electronic voting systems used in the United States since the last presidential election. There is documented evidence in this regard. Unless one knows nothing about computers, one knows they make mistakes. They are not perfect and can go wrong, and anybody who believes otherwise is living in cloud cuckoo land. Therefore, it is necessary to provide a back-up. If the Government is saying that it is not prepared to answer questions, the Opposition is entitled to ask why. It is profoundly dangerous to transform the system of elections when the Opposition has legitimate evidence and questions about the reliability of the system. At this stage I am not implying a sinister motive on the part of Government. The Minister is determined to do something, perhaps because it is cheaper or he wants to prove he is modern. The fundamental aspect is that people should trust elections. If something goes wrong in next June's elections, people will no longer trust the electoral system. There is no reason not to answer the questions and deal with the issues. The Minister is waving his hands and saying everyone thinks it is perfect. We have heard this from Departments about other issues when we were told everything was perfect. Landfills were perfect until people looked at the rest of Europe and they turned out to be appalling places. Departments are wrong as often as they are right and, therefore, we are entitled to answers to our questions.
The financial returns for January were published recently. People are being told there is no money for a dozen different things, yet we discover that the Government spent less money in some areas this January than it did the previous January. I would like the Minister to come to the House because we all know what is going on. A war chest is being stashed up which will be released in time for the elections. The Government is play-acting with the state of the public finances, something which should not be done.
There are elections this year.
This is a case of running away from people. There was sufficient money saved in January to cover the 16 savage cuts in social welfare introduced by the Minister, Deputy Coughlan. Last January alone would have paid for them. An assault on the poor is being carried out to win an election.
I agree with Senator O'Toole about the prisons. It is an absolute disgrace that Fintan Lane was in jail for two months because he broke down a fence in Shannon while rapists and murderers are being released early. He was a political prisoner and this country should be ashamed of itself.
Many Senators have questioned the use of technology and computers. I am raising this issue to try to ensure computers are retained in some of our post offices. The Leader was the Minister for Public Enterprise and she dealt with post offices in the past. I am concerned at the move nationally to take computers and automation out of post offices and reduce them to postal agencies. This will happen in Kiltormer near Ballinasloe this morning when An Post takes away computers. It is very unfair in an area where two sub-post offices have already closed down and 50 businesses use the post office that a change of ownership is being used as an excuse to take away this technology. This issue should be debated in the House and I would like to raise the matter on the Adjournment. An Post should not withdraw services from rural Ireland as is happening in many small towns throughout the country. It is using the excuse of a change of ownership to take away post office automation and computers.
I condemn the remarks made by Deputy Noel Davern towards the end of last week about the little women in our Irish Parliament.
That is not a matter for this House. The two Houses are separate.
It is an equality issue. It is very important in terms of the women of this House.
The Senator can raise the issue during a debate on equality issues.
That is what it is.
The two Houses are separate. We have no function in advising——
A member of one of the Government parties in these Houses made a comment that women were not fit to go to cities in Europe because it is not appropriate for them.
It is not a matter for this House.
I respect the Cathaoirleach's guidance on the issue, but I am very unhappy——
This is not a matter for this House.
——with comments made, such as that about the women of the two Houses.
It is not a matter for this House.
What about Deputy Jim O'Keeffe? Let us not be partisan.
Deputy Davern went much further——
Order, please. I said this is not a matter for this House and I ask the Members to accept my ruling.
I will.
There is a great need to replace the many social workers in the Eastern Health Board area who have either retired or left the profession through natural wastage. The lack of social workers is putting children at risk. When somebody makes a complaint that a child is at risk in its home, that child cannot be assessed for months and must continue to live in a dangerous environment. Despite everything we have heard about child abuse in the past week, we are continuing to allow children to be subjected to it because of the lack of social workers. This issue needs to be addressed by the appropriate Minister and I ask the Leader to ensure that it is.
I also share in the calls for a debate on electronic voting, but I would like to see balance in the debate. As with the electronic system, our current system is imperfect. Many of us are aware that a surplus may be distributed on the basis of a representative sample rather than counting all the number two votes. However, under the electronic system, this may not happen. I am not suggesting for one minute that we take the electronic system at face value without many checks and balances, but it would be worthwhile having a debate in order that all aspects could be discussed.
Hear, hear.
I call for a debate on the National Treasury Management Agency, which will affect many of us. It was an excellent use of the bounty derived from the sale of Eircom. It is timely to have a discussion on the future funding and expenditure of this agency.
I support the comments of my colleague Senator O'Toole regarding the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. It seems that he has displayed to the House substantial arguments leading to the conclusion that his Department is liable to a fair degree of maladministration and inefficiency. In light of this, the Department would be of far more use to the taxpayer if it directed its attention towards running its own affairs instead of attempting to run Seanad Éireann, as it did last week. This is not its business and is quite undemocratic.
Will the Leader confirm that there is no legislation in Ireland governing the acquisition and keeping of exotic pets, such as pumas, lions, alligators and snakes? In this regard, an event occurred in Northern Ireland that became quite serious — a puma escaped and caused danger to livestock and human beings. Legislation in this area should also cover exotic birds. It is very important that we have this legislation, particularly in light of the avian flu and the possible pandemic that may arise. If we find we have no legislation to control the import of birds that may be carriers of the virus, we could be in trouble. It would be responsible behaviour on the part of this House to look into what may at first sight seem rather amusing and extraordinary, but it does have repercussions for the ordinary citizen. Am I correct in assuming that the Republic and Northern Ireland have no legislation to address this matter? England has such legislation. In light of circumstances that have arisen, it is appropriate to consider its introduction.
I support Senator Terry's call for additional social workers, the lack of whom is causing difficulties. Not so long ago, the Midland Health Board had great difficulty in recruiting social workers. There is a very strong case to suggest that career guidance teachers should encourage boys and girls at second level to take up social work as a career. Social workers play a pivotal role in the process of adoption. The Midland Health Board had to go to South Africa to recruit social workers because they were unavailable in Ireland. There is a great difficulty which should be addressed.
I support my colleague, Senator Brian Hayes, and others who raised the issue of electronic voting. The Minister needs to make a statement on this because he has ignored expert advice. There is great concern among the public and in local authorities following demonstrations to officials. It is important we address this matter before it is too late.
I call on the Minister for Health and Children to come to the House to debate the issue of deteriorating health services. I want independent inquiries into the circumstances surrounding the deaths of two children, one in my county and the other in the neighbouring County Cavan, over the weekend. It is wrong that health boards are investigating themselves. We need independent inquiries into the circumstances and the findings of those inquiries should be debated in the Houses of the Oireachtas with a view to bringing about improvements in the health service.
The health service is in crisis. Yesterday we heard that 200 people throughout the country were awaiting hospital beds. There is a crisis in every accident and emergency unit. I have met doctors and nurses who are retiring from the health service because of stress. There is currently a national emergency that must be addressed by the Government, which has shamelessly let down the people on this issue.
I too support calls on the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to immediately call a halt to his current plans regarding electronic voting. I understand he will launch the system this morning. I supported the idea of electronic voting in principle, but I am greatly concerned now, based on what I have read and heard. Those concerns are shared by the public. We are facing an election in a few months' time in which people do not have full trust in the system they are being asked to use. It is up to the Government to correct that situation. It is not good enough. I accept Senator Hanafin's view that there may be glitches in the current system. However, the fact remains that people must have trust in a system that is transparent and open. Given that there is cross-party concern about this issue, I ask the Leader of the House to ask the Minister to take our views on board and to take them seriously.
I ask the Leader of the House to organise a debate on the issue of the care of the elderly. In light of the remarks of the Tánaiste, Deputy Harney, on this matter, it is very important that we clarify policy on this issue. I have long been of the view that it is time to call a spade a spade when it comes to current Government policy on the care of the elderly, which is to privatise such care and make it extremely expensive. We have reached a stage where many people cannot afford to have their relatives cared for.
I ask the Leader to give her view on the comments of her colleague, Deputy Davern——
That is not in order. I have ruled that out of order.
——on the ability or otherwise of women to take their place at the Council of Europe. Deputy Davern's remarks were more like——
I call Senator Dooley.
Will the Leader try to arrange, at the earliest possible date, for the Minister for Transport to come to the House to debate the implications of yesterday's ruling by the European Commission? There is much confusion in the mid-west and in County Clare in particular regarding Shannon Airport. There is much concern as to the implications of this ruling for the airport and for regional publicly controlled airports as opposed to private airports in other parts of the country. There is confusion because the industry does not seem to have responded in a uniform way. Ryanair seems to think it will have dreadful consequences whereas companies such as easyJet think the opposite. We are somewhat confused. We would like some clarity and direction from the Minister at the earliest possible date.
I too look forward to hearing the Leader on the question of electronic voting and call on the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government to allay all reasonable fears. As has been said, all legitimate questions do not appear to have been answered on this subject to people's satisfaction. Concerned citizens do not appear to be satisfied beyond all reasonable doubt that the matter is in order. The biggest fear relates to the fact that there will be a total absence of a paper trail. I look forward to hearing the Leader and the Minister because trust and confidence——
We will not have a debate on that matter now.
I appreciate that we will not have a debate now. Trust and confidence are vital. If the public who are the voters do not have trust and confidence, then I suggest we have a crisis on our hands.
Regarding what Senator Bannon said about the Department of Health and Children, I would like the take the opportunity to put the views of the people of County Cavan regarding their hospital. The matter has been bandied about in the national media in recent days. The people of County Cavan are proud of their hospital and its staff. Recent events are a cause of genuine concern to many. I would like to extend my deepest sympathy to the Sheridan family——
That is not entirely appropriate to the Order of Business.
——of Cootehill, County Cavan on the death of their daughter, Frances. I am also confident that the Minister, his Department and the health board will work well to resolve the current concerns about the hospital.
We cannot debate that now.
I ask the Leader that if the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is coming to the House, his attention be drawn to the fact that the management of U2 intends to invoke a rarely used provision in the Planning and Development Act 2000 whereby taxpayers will pay for their failed appeal to An Bord Pleanála on the compulsory purchase of their studio at Hanover Quay. That is somewhat rich for the group concerned. It is an abuse of power. Considering residents' associations must pay their own bills, it would be outrageous if that happened and I hope it does not. I hope the Leader agrees with me on that.
Senator Brian Hayes, Leader of the Opposition, asked whether there could be a question and answer session at the end of the debate on the report of the Laffoy commission. I will have to make inquiries about that, because the difficulty is I do not know what Minister is coming to the House. The Minister for Education and Science, Deputy Dempsey, is attending Committee Stage of the Education for Persons with Disabilities Bill 2003 today. However, I will make inquiries. I understand such a session did take place in the Dáil.
Senator Hayes commented that the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government is in charge of electronic voting and will also be director of elections for Fianna Fáil. We are delighted he is director of elections as he will make a good campaign manager. He is also in charge of voting matters. I understand electronic voting was debated and demonstrated at the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government. I presume there are Senators on that committee and that they attended the demonstration and debate. I accept that difficulties still remain as well as loss of confidence regarding it. It is being launched in the Mansion House this morning at 11.15 a.m. We would like to hear an account of the demonstration and their views on it from Members of this Chamber who are on the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government. It would be a good idea to invite the Minister for the Environment to address the House and I will request this. Many people in my constituency have spoken to me on the subject over the last two weeks. It may be that they are nervous about it. Research shows that far from older people being nonplussed about electronic voting, the opposite is the case. They are quite au fait with the prospect and feel they can manage it. Anyway, we will invite the Minister to address the House. On the paper trail, a receipt for one's vote as it goes through the system would reassure people.
On crime, Senator O'Toole mentioned there were 200 early releases. The most notorious of them are reoffending more or less immediately. That in itself sounds a cautionary note against early prison releases. The Senator asked for a general debate on crime and the prisons. We have that on the agenda. It is a question of when the Minister is available.
The Minister can get here quickly enough when he wants to.
I agree with the Senator that there are legitimate questions to be asked on the subject of electronic voting. Are the Members on the Joint Committee on the Environment and Local Government in the House?
Senator Ryan spoke about the financial returns at the end of January and intimated there was a good deal of money about. I do not know if that is true. The elections take place this year, so it is not a matter of having money to splash around because the budgets are set. He also asked that social welfare cuts be redeemed——
I asked that they be reversed.
Sorry, that they be reversed — redeemed is a good word too. He also asked for a debate on the early release of prisoners.
Senator Kitt asked about Kiltormer where the computers are being taken away instead of being brought in. It sounds an exotic situation, to use the word Senator Norris used earlier. I will inquire about it this morning. Senator Terry condemned remarks about "little women" in the Irish Parliament and said it was an equality issue. The remarks were made by two people, Deputies Davern and Jim O'Keeffe. That matter could be discussed when we debate the Equality Bill 2004 later today. It was suggested that women could not go to airports, but I do not know what happens to women at airports; nothing ever happened to me.
The matter can be discussed during the debate on the Equality Bill.
I never had an adventure at an airport.
That matter has been ruled out of order.
The Leader should try Schiphol.
She should not try Charleroi.
Please allow the Leader to reply on the Order of Business.
I have had many adventures in my life, none of which occurred at an airport.
I understand the point made about social worker numbers in the eastern region. It is important that young, vulnerable children are individually assessed and can meet with a social worker to whom they can relate.
Senator Hanafin asked for a debate on the National Treasury Management Agency, which I will arrange. Senator Norris raised matters relating to the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform, prisons and crime. He also asked if legislation exists regarding exotic pets and birds. I will inquire about that matter for the Senator.
Senator Glynn spoke about the recruitment of social workers and suggested that career guidance teachers should provide advice to and influence young people to take up those positions. It is interesting that the OECD report rated us tops in Europe for career guidance. That is good news. We have a former career guidance teacher in our midst.
Thank you.
Senator Bannon raised his concerns about electronic voting and asked that there be an inquiry into the deaths of the two young children. Senator O'Meara also asked about electronic voting and called for a debate on care of the elderly. The Tanáiste did us a service bringing up that topic.
On the earlier point of remarks made about women by two gentlemen in particular, I consider those remarks offensive.
What is the name of the other person?
Was it Albert?
Order, please.
Senator Dooley asked for a debate on the effect of the EU ruling on regional airports. He also said Ryanair takes a different view of the matter than easyJet. I am sure it does. EasyJet is delighted with the news because it appears it will now get some of the action.
Order, please.
I did not mention a name. Senator Coghlan also called for a debate on electronic voting and expressed his concerns about the absence of a paper trail. Senator Wilson, quite rightly, spoke of how proud people in County Cavan are of their hospital and its staff and wished to pass on his sympathy to the Sheridan family on the sad death of their daughter.
Senator Browne raised the matter of U2's exploitation of a loophole in a planning Act to escape paying moneys due on its studio at Hanover Quay. I will inquire about that matter from the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen.