The Order of Business is No. 1, Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution Bill 2004 — Second Stage, to be taken at the conclusion of the Order of Business and to conclude at 4 p.m, with the contributions of spokespersons not to exceed 15 minutes, those of all other Senators not to exceed ten minutes and the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than ten minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage. There will be a sos from 1 p.m. to 2 p.m.
Order of Business.
The independent commission established by the Government to look into electronic voting is due to publish its report at 11.30 a.m. Will the Leader agree to a short debate in the House some time this afternoon on the detail of the report, given that the other House is not sitting today? It would be wrong of the Government to bury the report in the excitement of the weekend. It would be wise to have a debate on the matter today.
I was astonished by the proposed business ordered for next week. We are supposed to take the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 on Friday next.
I will explain all that.
Will the Leader give an assurance, as I suspect she will, that should this report come out against the plans to foist electronic voting on the people, the Government will withdraw the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 from the Order Paper? One could not have a situation where the Government would proceed with the legislation after an independent commission had ruled against its proposal. I want a commitment from the Leader that should the report be negative for the Government, and for the Minister in particular, the Bill will be removed from the Order Paper.
There is a commitment to conclude No. 1 by 4 p.m. However, if speakers are offering at that time, will the debate proceed or will the Second Stage debate be resumed next week, in light of the clear recommendations from the All-Party Committee on the Constitution that there should be no guillotining of any debate on a referendum proposal? Will the Leader reply to that issue as well?
I share the view that it is cynical to seem to move ahead with the issue. I know the Leader's view on it, but it is creating the wrong impression. I assume the Leader will confirm that in the event of the commission ruling against it, the Bill will be removed from the Order of Business. People have come to the conclusion that the Government knows it has nothing to worry about and can push ahead with the Bill. As I recall it, the Government was in consultation with the Opposition and other parties when the Bill we are about to discuss now had been sent to print. It appears that the Government is experiencing second term syndrome, when it is infused with arrogance. A former leader of the Government party said it is not the big jumps but the little fences that trip people up at the end of the day. Mistakes are being made all over the place.
I thank the Cathaoirleach for the response of his offices to the issue of due process. I discussed the issue with the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform. If we take the impeachment route, I will not comment on the case of the person involved, we must be aware that our actions must be amenable to the Constitution as well as international agreements and human rights. Will the Leader bring to the attention of Government the importance of considering the process of due process? The Constitution empowers us to be judge and jury and we have to accept that responsibility, but having done so, all the evidence that the Garda Síochána, the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Government has must be presented. We must ensure that the human rights of the person concerned are respected and that the person has the opportunity to express a view when the matter is being discussed. I am not sure whether personal appearances are allowed, but we must not rush in on the basis of a quick decision. One could end up with egg on one's face if one does not pay due regard to agreements. I ask that our actions be measured and responsible.
When it is proposed to guillotine a Bill, a motion to that effect should appear on the Order Paper rather than assuming that because the Bill is due to finish at 4 p.m., a plethora of matters that are not written down come into play.
Since I was first elected to this House I have attended a considerable number of constitutional amendment debates. I do not recall any contentious ones having been guillotined, nor do I recall many where it was imperative to finish the debate in one day.
The Referendum Commission has placed a half-page advertisement in this morning's newspapers concerning the arrangements for a referendum which has not yet been approved by both Houses of the Oireachtas.
That is right.
That is grossly offensive. It is a classic symptom of the way in which this business has been handled by the Government from the very beginning. The Government is contemptuous of the Houses of the Oireachtas and of its own programme for Government, which stated that there would be consultations with all parties on the matter. An appallingly researched document produced in the dead of night on 10 March is not consultation. Given that a half-page advertisement has appeared in The Irish Times and other newspapers today about the referendum, the Progressive Democrats might rediscover its conscience and vote against it, in which case we would not be having a referendum. I find the whole matter to be contemptuous of the Houses of the Oireachtas.
Senator O'Toole is correct that we all need to be extremely careful about commenting on issues where we may well end up in a serious situation because of our responsibilities. I am intrigued, however, as to how one can reconcile the power to impeach a judge, given that their lordships have found that the Houses of the Oireachtas have no inherent right to conduct an inquiry that would reflect on the character of another person. I would like to hear their lordships reconciling those two particular issues and no doubt they will do so.
I find it a little ironic to be talking about these matters the day before the European Union expands to welcome in an additional 80 million citizens. As we are generating the hoop-la here and all over Europe, we are assiduously working to make it more difficult for citizens of the expanded EU to have children in this country who will have the same rights as Irish citizens. It is ironic. There could have been better reasons to recall the House today, for example, to deal with the genuine significance of enlargement, instead of showing our mean-minded side again.
As regards the EU enlargement celebrations, in my younger years I was involved in many public protests in Dublin. I have not been involved in violence personally but I was in the face of considerable violence, including the burning down of the British Embassy. I have never seen such an extraordinary generation of hysteria as at present concerning the possibility of trouble at public protests. I have no idea what agenda is being followed in this respect. A serious journalist claimed a scoop because he went to a meeting in England that is publicly advertised and held every Tuesday night at 7.30 p.m. He announced that he had infiltrated an anarchist group that was going to cause trouble. I presume he flew over on a Ryanair flight to attend a meeting that was widely advertised. I find that sort of stuff, and its apparent toleration by organs of the State, extraordinary.
We now have the inevitable consequence that the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism, Deputy O'Donoghue, is worried that nobody will turn up for his party because they are all afraid of the rioters about whom the country has been obsessed for the past three weeks. Tomorrow is supposed to be a celebration, although some have different views. A tiny group may attempt to cause trouble but we have had far worse trouble in this country and we did not try to frighten everybody away beforehand because we used to believe in the right to protest.
While I give latitude to the leaders, they are shared offerings so, because of the time motion, I appeal to Senators to be as brief as possible. I do not like to curtail contributions that much, but I would like Senators to be brief. My remarks are not directed specifically to Senator Leyden upon whom I now call.
It just so happens that he is next.
The leader in waiting.
The conscience of Fianna Fáil.
From a humanitarian viewpoint, I ask the Leader to make contact with the Department of Education and Science and with the Taoiseach's office concerning the 16th day of a hunger strike outside Leinster House by Mr. Tom Sweeney. Archbishop Martin visited Mr. Sweeney yesterday and has been in contact with the Government, while Government officials have also contacted Mr. Sweeney. We are coming to a weekend of great celebrations in Dublin, with ten accession countries joining the EU, and this matter should be resolved. The issues involved are quite straightforward and Mr. Sweeney is prepared to end his hunger strike provided he gets justice. Reducing his claim from €115,000 to €65,000 does not sound like justice for Mr. Sweeney from the redress board and he has a justifiable case. He spent five years in institutions like Artane and St. Joseph's in Galway. He has six children and is willing to come off the hunger strike provided he gets a commitment that his case will be heard again by the redress board and that his original settlement is restored. In light of the abuses in the country in the 1950s, I ask the Leader, as a former Minister for Education, to intervene as I know she is concerned about this matter. I also thank the Archbishop of Dublin. I congratulate him on his appointment and he is certainly starting in the right way by being so humane in coming to see Mr. Sweeney.
I join with Senator Brian Hayes in raising the issue of electronic voting. There are serious concerns about the security of this system and I hope the report to be launched later this morning will highlight the concerns expressed by many Opposition Senators and Deputies. I refer particularly to information received recently through freedom of information legislation to the effect that the machines in the Dublin West constituency during the general election recorded 716 votes more than were on the register. In Dublin North the machines recorded 1,300 votes fewer than were on the register.
We are not discussing this matter now.
This information did not come from the Minister in the Dáil when he was trying to impress on the Opposition that electronic voting is safe and secure.
The Senator has made her point.
As someone who is next to take a seat in this area I am extremely concerned by these mistakes which have been highlighted. I thank the Chair for this latitude.
Following from what I said yesterday I refer to the "Prime Time" programme last night. The pensioners of today or those who are about to receive their pensions are never mentioned, nor is the fact that those pensions are worth very little. The Irish Insurance Federation and the Pensions Board are constantly pushing young people to take out pensions but they never mention the pensioners of today, the value of whose pensions has been completely eroded. That is never mentioned and those organisations will not answer any questions on those matters.
Yesterday we saw shocking pictures of naked Iraqi soldiers being humiliated, abused and tortured by gloating American soldiers. Those pictures will have upset many people but I am also upset by the mild rebuke those soldiers received from their government.
Hear, hear.
It is absolutely vital that we take a stand on issues like this. The question now in people's minds is whether it is a mater of replacing one brutal regime with another. The time has come for American and British soldiers to leave Iraq and for the United Nations to bring some semblance of order to that country. I do not believe, no matter how friendly we are with a country, that we can stand over what we have said. One honourable retired senior army officer said: "What we went in to stop we are now doing ourselves and we will have a big price to pay for this." We know that whatever happens in Iraq will reverberate throughout the world and will impact on all of us at some time. None of us is immune to that. It is vital for the House to take a stand. The Minister for Foreign Affairs should be invited to come before the House for a debate on the matter.
Does the Leader think it would be beneficial if Members were to make a unanimous appeal to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform to amend the law in respect of under 18 year olds being present in hotels and bars after 9 p.m., particularly during the tourist season? This will have a detrimental effect. All the hotels in my area are concerned. For families and couples with children, this measure is not practical. I ask the Leader to appeal to the Minister to amend the law.
On the matter raised by Senator O'Toole, if an impeachment process is invoked I agree, as I did yesterday, that this House would satisfy all constitutional requirements in regard to how it would proceed.
I agree with Senator Ryan that it is quite improper for an advertisement by the Referendum Commission to be published before this Bill has even started to be debated in this House. As one who was present in Gothenburg for an ordinary European Council and who witnessed the main street being wrecked by rioters for no good reason, one cannot take lightly threats that come about and therefore I would not be overly critical. It is regrettable that it is necessary on a day like tomorrow to have security.
I am not sure if there is any precedent for impeachment proceedings. Over the weekend we will have to study the trials of Charles I, Warren Hastings and, perhaps, William Jefferson Clinton.
I agree with the remarks of Senator Ó Murchú on Iraq and the need for a debate. When the breakdown of law and order became obvious two weeks ago, all sides of the House agreed a debate was necessary. I ask the Leader to arrange such a debate. As Senator Ó Murchú has said what is happening in Iraq will reverberate around the world and there is no question but that it will have an impact here, whether separately or as members of the EU, or in terms of our relationship with the United States.
In regard to this weekend's activities, it should be noted that in Warsaw recently, in anticipation of difficulties and trouble, the centre of the city was completely closed off. Nobody turned up for a protest. It will be interesting to see what happens here. Certainly the reaction of the commercial centre of Dublin appears to be that undoubtedly there will be difficulties. It is unfortunate that is the main message going out for the weekend, rather than the celebration of such an historic event as the major and welcome enlargement of the European Union.
I feel as Senator Ó Murchú does on the issue of the torture of the Iraqi citizens in Iraq by American soldiers. It is disturbing for somebody like me who accepted the reasoning for the war, that there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and that it was ready to use them in a short period. Words take form and have meaning. As a conscientious Senator, like all Members, I am deeply disturbed that this is becoming a second Vietnam. As somebody who would have supported President Bush, primarily because of his pro-life stance, I do not consider that what is happening in Iraq at present is very pro-life. The only and very clear solution is that the United States should now extricate itself from Iraq and let the Iraqi people get on with the business of ruling their own country. What we saw was deeply disturbing.
With regard to the attacks on the Government from the Opposition benches this morning, it is amazing that the only big news emanating from the Opposition is that the leader of one of the big parties has managed to use an aeroplane to get around Ireland.
Does the Senator wish to join us on it?
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Communications, Marine and Natural Resources to the House to debate the deplorable financial condition of An Post, a semi-State company that needs a major shake up. Unlike Aer Lingus which has turned deficit into profit, An Post has a long way to go. I am disturbed to read reports in this morning's newspapers of possible disposal of property by An Post and the increase in the cost of stamps by 12 cent or 15 cent. An Post has stated it will not be able to guarantee delivery to every house in future. We have all complained about the poor service offered by An Post in recent times. It now takes two or three days for a letter to arrive compared to one day in the past. The situation is very unsatisfactory.
I ask the Leader to invite the Minister for Health and Children to the House to debate the issue of health insurance. Yesterday, VHI Healthcare clearly stated that it would allow the company to go bankrupt rather than charge increases in premia next September. The Health Insurance Agency has a duty to recognise the difficulties faced by VHI Healthcare compared with the other health insurance providers, BUPA Ireland in particular. A transfer subvention of €23 million is required by VHI Healthcare. It is unfair to drive VHI Healthcare into a position where it will have to provide for the additional claims from its reserves because of the age profile of its subscribers.
The Government gave a clear undertaking to the agency that this risk equalisation charge would be transferred to VHI Healthcare. Loyalty must be shown to the original health insurance providers. If it faces a threat of bankruptcy, the Minister should immediately intervene and do what is necessary to allow it to carry on with its very satisfactory insurance scheme.
I call Senator Bannon.
The other side is very tetchy this morning.
One wonders whether it is the very expensive spin doctors or the Government that is running this country when one reads today's newspapers and sees the half-page advertisements from the Referendum Commission referred to by Senator Ryan.
Senators
Hear, hear.
I am as surprised as my colleagues on this side of the House with regard to the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 which is on the Order Paper for next week even though the independent commission has not yet published its report. This is a serious situation. I ask the Leader to discuss this matter with the Taoiseach to ascertain how this has happened when the independent commission report has not yet been published.
I regard the independent candidates contesting the local elections as a group whose members are very hard-done by. It is grossly unfair that those independent candidates must traipse around looking for 15 registered voters and bring those people before the returning officer on the day they submit their nomination papers——
I do not think the House can do anything about that matter.
This is grossly unfair and the Government must explain its position on this issue and the reason it takes place. The Constitution states that all citizens should be treated equally and that is not the case under the Government.
The electoral law applies in all circumstances.
It should be revisited.
The Senator can table a motion to that effect.
I read with interest about the Taoiseach's decision to expel Deputy Cooper-Flynn from the Fianna Fáil Party.
That is not a matter for the House.
I will rephrase my statement.
The Fianna Fáil Party has already lost one Member this week. Do not lose two.
Order, please.
I call for a debate on the role of the banking institutions in leading people down the road of tax evasion. Every Senator knows many innocent people who have been affected in this way. The House should debate the reason the Government did a deal with the financial institutions and let them off scot free. Unfortunately, it is the innocent parties who are appearing in court.
There are so many people waiting in the long grass for the Fianna Fáil Party, it would be safer for Senator Hanafin to travel by air.
(Interruptions).
What is the position of the Water Services Bill 2003, which will impose charges on septic tanks and a series of other charges? Second Stage was taken in the House about two months ago and we now await Committee Stage. Why has it gone to ground? Is it due to the forthcoming local elections? Will the Bill, which was introduced in the House in a hurry, not reappear until after 11 June? What is the up to date position?
Senator Brian Hayes asked why the Electoral (Amendment) Bill 2004 has been ordered for next week. We discussed this at length and ordered the Bill for Friday of next week, with the caveat that the matter could be re-examined when the independent commission on electronic voting delivers its report shortly to the Ceann Comhairle. It was necessary to place the Bill on next week's agenda in order that it could be taken in the event that the commission's recommendation on the Government's proposal on electronic voting is positive. If its recommendation is negative, we will have to reconsider the matter. Both the Taoiseach and the Minister for the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, Deputy Cullen, will abide by the views of the independent commission.
The Senator also asked if the debate on No. 1 will be allowed to proceed beyond 4 p.m. I hope that will be possible if more speakers are offering. If necessary, we will arrange to extend the debate by changing the order.
Senator O'Toole asked about electronic voting. My previous explanation also pertains to his point. The Senator also referred to the second term syndrome. I have had reasonably official preliminary discussions on the issue of a possible impeachment. There is no doubt that the constitutional rights of Senators will have to be thoroughly explained and teased out, as will those of any persons who may appear before the House. The Senator was right to raise this matter last week and has been speaking to the Cathaoirleach's office. We will keep a watch on the matter as it develops. We have serious and complex obligations as Senators if it reaches that point, and we should be aware of them anyway. I think there will be some movement in that regard.
Senator Ryan asked why there was no order on the Order Paper to announce a guillotine for the Bill. Under Standing Orders, there is no requirement for a formal motion to conclude Second Stage. The matter can be dealt with by adopting the Order of Business and hopefully adapting it if more speakers are needed.
The advertisement which everyone saw in this mornings newspapers shocked me. I intend to call the office of the independent commission because there was a total disregard for procedure.
Hear, hear.
The Bill is in this House today and again next week. The idea that it has been passed already is arrogance of the highest order.
Senator Ryan also spoke about the hysteria generated regarding tomorrow's events. People do not know what will happen. We want people to join in the fun but we do not want trouble. That is natural and Senator Mansergh made an interesting comment on it. If we do not make arrangements to offset the possibility of violence there would be calls for the head of the Garda Commissioner.
Senator Leyden spoke about the hunger strike by Mr. Tom Sweeney outside Leinster House. I spoke to Christina Buckley who was with him two days ago. She asked me to call an ambulance for him which I did. He refused to get into the ambulance even though the paramedic on the scene felt he should do so. I will see if anything can be done following the Archbishop's intervention.
Senator Terry raised the concerns with electronic voting, about which she has serious reservations. I could not believe the huge discrepancies which were apparent in the information provided under the Freedom of Information Act. We had all been oblivious to this. We will know soon if the commission will recommend electronic voting. The Senator also raised the issue of pensions. I saw it on "Prime Time" last night. It is right to be making arrangements for future pensions. We hope to get the Minister for Social and Family Affairs, Mary Coughlan, in for that debate.
Labhrás Ó Murchú spoke about Iraq. It gives those of us who were totally against the American invasion no satisfaction to know that we were right. How could one get satisfaction from suffering? The treatment of Iraqi prisoners by American soldiers would not occur in the most uncivilised society. Yet there was only a mild rebuke by the official spokesperson for American soldiers. I do not see that the Iraqis are any better now than they were under Saddam. The predatory path the Americans wish to explore further around the world will bring every country into trouble. There should be a properly structured debate on the current situation.
Senator Coghlan wants an amendment to the law to allow children access to bars in hotels with their parents. Children are already allowed in lounges. People who are in a bar will not welcome pitter-patter around the floor all the time. I think the law is very sensible. One can sit in a hotel lounge, have a drink and if one wants one's darlings around, that is all right. I do not think I would like children running around and sensible arrangements have been made.
Senator Mansergh agreed with our views on the half-page advertisement. He regrets that it is necessary to make arrangements to safeguard people.
Senator O'Meara referred to Iraq. She spoke about the centre of Warsaw and what happened. Nobody turned up because it was massively wire proofed or whatever and everyone was afraid. I have heard plenty of people saying they are leaving Dublin for the weekend just in case. It is such a joyful day that we should be able to walk about and do whatever we want. I hope we will be able to do so.
Senator Hanafin's honesty was great because he said he was one of the people who supported the Americans going into Iraq. What is happening is deeply disturbing.
Senator Browne called for a debate on An Post. It is on our list for the future.
Senator Ulick Burke spoke about health insurance and the fact the other health insurers would have to prop up the VHI.
Senator Bannon has a great interest in the independent candidates. There might be a day when they would be useful.
They were already useful.
As the Cathaoirleach said, it is in the electoral laws that 15 people must support one's candidature so that we do not have foolish people——
It is discrimination.
It is not; it is the law. Senator Bannon's interest in independent candidates is laudatory.
Senator Feighan referred to the banking institutions. That issue was raised by Senator Ross yesterday and was echoed by others who called for a wider debate on it.
Senator Paddy Burke asked about the Water Services Bill. It is scheduled for June. Since Second Stage, the Department has engaged in a considerable consultative exercise, something it should have done before it got through Second Stage. This is a point we put forward in our report. It is something in which we, in this Chamber, should engage. Many changes are contemplated to the Water Services Bill but Committee Stage is scheduled for June.
On the request for more time for Second Stage of the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution Bill, I will keep a watch and will come back to the House if necessary.
Order of Business agreed to.