The Order of Business today is Nos. 1 and 2. No. 1 is a motion referring a proposal to the Joint Committee on Justice, Equality, Defence and Women's Rights for consideration. It concerns the establishment of a specific programme of civil justice as part of the general programme of fundamental rights and justice. The motion will be taken without debate; No.2, the Employee (Provision of Information and Consultation) Bill 2005 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business until 1.30 p.m. spokespersons have 15 minutes and other Senators have ten minutes, with the Minister to be called upon to reply not later than five minutes before the conclusion of Second Stage.
Order of Business.
Over the summer, the issue that appeared to dominate was rip-off Ireland and the programme presented by Mr. Eddie Hobbs seems to have resonated with the public. By the end of the summer, people were talking about this issue as though this was a banana republic without the bananas. Indeed, the Minister for Social and Family Affairs agreed on television that we have developed into rip-off Ireland.
When Members returned to the Houses, the first thing they received was the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. For anyone who reads the report, it is a shocking indictment of spending excesses in many different Departments. There appears to be a natural assumption that when any Department installs a computer system, it never works out exactly in accordance with the estimate. There appears to be an acceptance that the cost of such projects doubles. Regrettably, in 2000 we entered into an arrangement with the Massachusetts Institute of Technology with regard to MediaLab Europe. That has been written off with a total cost to the Exchequer of €35 million. At the time, it was the Taoiseach's project. It subsequently came under the aegis of the former Department of Public Enterprise and eventually under that of the Department of Communications, Marine and Natural Resources. On reading the report, it appears more like a vanity project than one based in reality.
I want someone to account for the reason for this type of spending. When we decided to automate the production of passports, why did the cost double from €13.5 million to €27 million? There seems to be a natural assumption that this will happen.
There is benchmarking within the Civil Service. I often wonder what actually happens to senior officials who make decisions within the Civil Service pertaining to expenditure on the scale involved in many such projects. What happens subsequently when it goes completely askew? Are they accountable for their stewardship? Are they accountable within their own Departments? Are they asked what went wrong? Does anything happen or do they get promoted?
This report saddens me. I have been in the Oireachtas since 1989 and have seen reports like this every year. I keep telling myself that surely alarm bells will ring in Departments with regard to the Comptroller and Auditor General's role as a public watchdog, so we will reach a situation whereby his report contains little by way of the discovery of spending excesses. We have squandered much of the fruits of the Celtic tiger. I would like the Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Martin, to come before the House and account for these excesses. There must be some accountability so we can know what is happening. The Committee of Public Accounts will look at the situation in comparison with the spending of all Departments and I welcome the moves that are emanating from the committee to demand that these projects be looked at differently in the future. Rather than incurring expenditure, proposed expenditure must be examined first to figure out how viable it is.
I welcome the comments by the Taoiseach yesterday on behalf of the ferry workers. It raises an important point. Over the past seven or eight years, people in this House have discussed Members' involvement — or non-involvement — in the partnership process. This is a good example of why we need a partnership process. It would be useful to invite the Taoiseach or another member of the Cabinet to come in and outline our vision for the community in partnership. What we see happening at the moment with the ferry workers is anti-community, anti-partnership and is an attempt to bring us back to the future of the Spailpín Fánach, where we oppress immigrant and travelling workers and where we depress wages and give workers no rights. This is a community that has worked hard to give reasonable rewards to workers at all levels in the public and private sector over the past 15 to 20 years. It is not to be thrown away in the interests of greedy, grasping, miserable businesses that want to walk on those workers who have created the wealth that we are all sharing.
This company does not reflect the generality of businesses in Ireland. Most businesses are happy to make their profit and to pay their workers and that is as it should be. This is not an anti-business thing, but an anti-person thing. I would welcome an opportunity for Members of this House to state how they would like to see partnership working in this country, how they would like to see adequate reward for workers, the circumstances in place to ensure that we are competitive, how the wealth created in this nation is distributed and how the money is created for investment in public services. In six months time, people will stand up and claim that deals are being done here, there and everywhere and that the House should have an input into them. This is an opportunity for Members to talk to members of the Cabinet and inform them of what they do and do not want. The beauty of the partnership process is that it forces people of different points of view to listen to each other. They are not sitting in their own corner at their trade union meeting, chamber of commerce meeting or voluntary body meeting; they all must listen to each other. We could do with a bit of it in here. We could put arguments forward, see where the compromises must be made and have some input into shaping the future, a future that will be different from what Irish Ferries wants for its workers.
I agree completely with Senator O'Toole. I hope the Taoiseach's comments are translated into legislation because I am certain that there are seven or eight countries in Europe where one could not do what is being done. Let us not hide behind the European Union. I am certain that in Sweden, the Netherlands, Denmark and Norway, Irish Ferries could not do this by law and yet those countries all run efficient ferry services.
Perhaps what Senator O'Toole said is just another manifestation of something that leaps out of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report. In the area of taxation, according to the report, there were six convictions in the year reviewed. In the same year, 36 people went to jail for social welfare fraud, 144 people were fined, 43 received the benefit of the Probation Act, while social welfare fraud totalled €18 million. In the same year, six people were convicted for tax offences but the Comptroller and Auditor General does not have the details of the penalties, so we can assume none of them was too severe. In the same year, €172 million in tax was written off, representing 26,000 different cases. Some of that money was income tax, but some of it was VAT, which is essentially money that someone stole from a customer, pretended that he or she was paying VAT and then kept if for himself or herself. It was then written off because the company went bankrupt or whatever. The Revenue Commissioners are often correct to write these things off, but it is inexcusable that someone can fiddle VAT, see his or her company go bankrupt and then pay nothing, yet is not prosecuted for what is clearly a fraudulent transaction between that person and his or her customers.
Why is it that so few people are prosecuted for any tax offence in a year when 36 people went to jail for a maximum of €18 million? This is the difference between the rich and the poor. In the companies that find ways to exploit workers, as Senator O'Toole pointed out, there are directors who are rewarding themselves with increases well above what even the most outrageous trade unionist would ever hope for. These increases can be up in the order of 10% to 15% per annum and are voted to them by other directors who are meant to be independent, but are all part of the cosy circle which looks after Irish business. People who are in each other's companies do the remuneration for one company and receive the remuneration for another. As long as we allow that sort of inequality, manifested in the report of the Comptroller and Auditor General and in the Irish Ferries affair, I am sceptical that genuine partnership exists. Until I see the law applying equally to the rich and to the poor, to the powerful and to the powerless, we do not really have the sort of partnership to which I would aspire.
We are living in an age when we are all encouraged to be tolerant and to be respectful towards other religions. This is right because the only way good relationships can be ensured in diverse communities is by being respectful towards the faiths of other people. On the other hand, we find that the Christian religion is constantly lampooned and subject to extreme irreverence. One of the most vulgar cases that I have seen recently is the use of the Last Supper to promote gambling. The Last Supper is sacred to the Christian faith and it is very hurtful to people to see it used in this way. I suggest that if we treated the icons of other religions in that way, there would be an outcry and rightly so. I appeal to all people in the media and in advertising to use their talents in a more creative and less offensive way. I know people who have been astounded, hurt and insulted by the manner in which that particular advertising campaign has been conducted. As a Member of the Oireachtas, I am glad that I have a platform to express the outrage felt at the moment.
The neglect over the issue of Sellafield is unbelievable. I was there as part of a delegation from an Oireachtas committee two weeks ago and there is evidence of incompetence and complacency among some members of the staff. It is a disaster waiting to happen and we have an obligation to protect the citizens of this State in a fair manner. I call for the closure of Sellafield in the interests of health and safety. It is important that the Government has an independent observer present on a 24-hour basis in Sellafield. We must pursue this case to the International Court of Justice to ensure that Sellafield is closed once and for all. Last week when we arrived at Sellafield, we were told in the presence of personnel at the facility of an accident that happened and went undetected. There was a gash in a pipe which was transporting radioactive material into the Irish Sea. This scenario is not fair on our citizens or on those in Britain and it will be people power which finally brings about the closure of Sellafield. It is up to the Minister to come to the House to inform us of the action he intends to take against Britain on the matter of Sellafield.
Over the past few months, the Irish Exporters Association and many others have made the case that Dublin Port will shortly experience capacity issues in bringing imports in and getting our exports off the island. Discussions are ongoing as to how capacity issues can be resolved and whether Dublin Port should increase its size or look elsewhere for development. One of our best kept national secrets is the plan by Drogheda Port to relocate to a place called Bremore, just north of Balbriggan. As Ireland's port capacity problems could be more than adequately solved through the development at Bremore, I call for a debate with the Minister of State, Deputy Gallagher, on the Government's ports policy.
I concur with the sentiments of my colleagues across the floor of the House on the proposed reorganisation of Irish Ferries. I fear that if restructuring goes ahead in the manner proposed, it will set a deadly precedent. If a company can offer very generous redundancy packages 60% of which will ultimately be recouped from the State, it means the State will be complicit in the form of reorganisation proposed.
Hear, hear.
I would welcome a debate in the House on the issue. While I do not like to hear comments from unions describing a race to the bottom, the process in question is certainly taking that direction.
On the same subject, after the Order of Business the House will discuss the Employee (Provision of Information and Consultation) Bill. In view of the relatively short time available until next Monday, those of us who hope to contribute may have the opportunity to say something about what I was going to call Irish Ferries, but which should perhaps be renamed "Central and Eastern European Ferries". I wonder whether there are any proposals in the company at senior executive not to mention chief executive level for proportionate cuts in pay and benefits and, if those are not accepted, whether there is a proposal to advertise for a new chief executive in, for example, the Moldovan national newspapers. I wonder if the people who run the company have the faintest idea of the negative publicity which has been generated.
Hear, hear.
Certainly, I have no inclination to book a crossing with Irish Ferries this morning and I dare say many others would react in the same way.
On the subject of the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, I have felt for a long time that if the Revenue Commissioners are overstretched and require more staff, the resources should be provided without question. They more than pay for themselves. We will still be discussing in a hundred years the Comptroller and Auditor General's report as it is an eternal battle to combat waste in public expenditure. While criticism is in most cases well justified, the only way to avoid waste entirely would be for Government not to take any decision at all. As a former Fine Gael leader said to me some years ago regarding one of our projects which had not worked out, it is an inevitable part of Government that one loses some. In defence of public servants, I point out that we have a system of ministerial accountability. Ministers are the people who are responsible for decisions.
No matter what goes wrong, they never resign.
If all decisions must be successful, one will end up taking no decisions at all. Let us remember the observation of the President of the European Central Bank that this is a magnificently performing economy.
It could be a great deal better.
That should be the backdrop to all our discussions.
An article in one of the morning newspapers referred to a Polish magazine which recounted the difficulties faced by Polish people in Ireland. I have many Polish friends and while the article may have overstated the case, it underlined the need for the House to discuss an immigration policy. The economy will require 50,000 to 60,000 fresh labourers every year for the next ten years and we must find a way to integrate them into Irish society to ensure we not only benefit from their labour but from the entire range of their cultures and avoid piling up the kind of trouble for the future one sees, for example, in Britain.
I am tempted by Senators Mansergh and Finucane to comment on the question of public accounts. While I agree with Senator Finucane that problems must be examined, they are not confined to this jurisdiction. I had the doubtful distinction once of explaining to a public accounts committee why a hospital for which the original estimate was £7 million had finished up costing £74 million. There appears to be a magic factor of ten in these cases. While there were some good reasons and some bad reasons for this state of affairs, political pressure and reluctance to drop a turkey makes things very difficult for public servants. In the private sector one would cut one's losses. I am not launching a political broadside as generally I support Senator Finucane on this issue. It is far from a party political matter. It would be better to conduct case studies on two or three projects to allow us to learn from experience without recrimination or conducting witch hunts but with the idea of improving future administration.
I agree with Senator Maurice Hayes on his point about the exploitation of Polish workers. There must be proper mechanisms to prevent any form of exploitation of any foreign immigrant.
September is a month in which politicians are inundated with phone calls from students and parents on the subject of student grants. Politicians have developed an institutionalised way of thinking in which we expect parents to phone up to ask where to obtain a grant or when it is due. Parents are crippled by the costs of paying rent and upkeep for their student children which is why grants should be fast-tracked by centralising the process. Students do not know whether to approach VECs or local authorities. While it is very easy to be critical of these bodies, it is not good enough given the fact that at issue is the question of resources. Staff should be provided, programmes should be established and mechanisms should be put in place long before September.
I call on the Minister for Education and Science to centralise the process to establish a one-stop-shop for the fast-tracking of student grants. We should get away from the idea of using VECs and local authorities. Let us pump resources into the process. If we must use local authorities, we should employ people to get the job done rather than have us continue to be tortured. It is not politicians as a group for whom we should feel sorry, but students and theirparents.
In light of recent developments, I call for a wide-ranging debate on the Middle East, including Iran, Iraq, Israel and Palestine.
I fully support the comments made by Senator Ó Murchú. I found it very sad to hear on "Morning Ireland" this morning the representative of a company say that if Jesus was a Muslim, he would not have dared to put forward the advertisement in which he is shown as a gambler. Jesus Christ is a very important part of my everyday life. I find that advertisement disgusting and blasphemous and I call on this company to withdraw it immediately because it is offensive to all Christians.
I welcome the Comptroller and Auditor General's report, particularly the comments of the Chairman of the Committee of Public Accounts, Deputy Noonan, regarding his committee having an early look at some projects rather than, as he said, looking at projects when the horse has left the stable. Senator Maurice Hayes referred to the fact that it has always been a tradition that the Committee of Public Accounts looks at value-for-money audits. I hope the committee would carry on that tradition but that the audits could be confined to a number of projects.
I wish to return briefly to an issue raised by my colleague, Senator Moylan, last June regarding adequate parking at sporting events, especially to the activities of clampers around Croke Park. It was bad last June and it was disgraceful during the months of August and September. I do not speak from personal experience but on behalf of many Galwegians who had to make the trip to Dublin with some limited success and who had to pay to have their cars unclamped using a credit card because the clampers do not take cash. Perhaps the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism should examine the matter and we could have a discussion in the House. It is not clear to people where they can park on Saturdays and Sundays as distinct from the other days of the week. This matter should be dealt with because it is going on for far too long. It is ruining the enjoyment of sport in the city of Dublin.
I ask the Leader to arrange for the Minister for Transport to give us an update on the bilateral negotiations between the EU and the USA on air transport. If the Government is involved in bilateral negotiations with the United States on air transport, it should be aware of the implications of the outcome of such negotiations for Shannon. There is concern in the Shannon region about what is happening in this regard. We need to get up-to-date information as to the current state of negotiations.
One of my heroes and one of the heroes of modern Ireland is Dr. T.K. Whitaker, a former Member of this House. I would not like the occasion to pass without recognising a big event in his life last month where at the age of 90 he got married again.
I do not see the relevance of that to the Order of Business.
The relevance relates to the fact that it was a wonderful occasion for a former Member of this House. We recognise deaths and we should also recognise marriages.
No. There is a time limit.
Hear, hear.
I support the call by Senator Maurice Hayes for a discussion on immigration. I, too, listened to the programme this morning about how some Polish immigrants are treated in this country, which ties in with the current Irish Ferries debacle.
If the Minister for Arts, Sport and Tourism comes to the House for a discussion on clamping near Croke Park, perhaps we could also refer to the allocation of tickets for all-Ireland finals?
That is not a matter for discussion.
That is out of order.
This morning I attended a briefing on cystic fibrosis, which Senator Quinn also attended. It is an area that needs urgent attention. I ask the Leader to provide time for statements on this serious condition at the earliest opportunity.
I raised two other matters in the past, one pertaining to men's health and the other was type 2 diabetes which is ravaging the population, young and old. In view of the time constraints I will leave it at that.
Senator Finucane, who acted as leader of his party in the Seanad today, raised the matter of rip-off Ireland, Eddie Hobbs and the debate surrounding this issue. I juggled my time and watched the four episodes. It is his presentation that is attractive. He is quirky and funny and the Cork accent helps. I am sorry if I have offended Cork people. I just mean the Cork accent helps.
I never noticed.
Senator Minihan has a posh accent.
Montenotte is the upper end.
It is safer to describe personalities.
If one wants to get elected, get a Cork accent.
Eddie Hobbs did the State some service. People were riveted by his programme judging from the numbers that watched it. Senator Finucane also referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General and senior officials. I will return to that point to which Senator Mansergh replied. A Minister has overall responsibility for his or her Department and that includes the actions of civil servants and the explanation of same. I do not know how we could organise such a debate or which Minister would address the matter but I have been giving some thought as to how we would discuss the report.
Senator O'Toole referred to the Taoiseach's statement on ferry workers. Well done to the Taoiseach. He is the Prime Minister and he saw fit to condemn what is a most dreadful practice. I cannot believe that redundancy money is being dangled in front of workers who may have current needs and concerns about cash. They could not be faulted if they decided to take it up but the outcome would be that workers would be paid half the going rate. It is a terrible situation. It is wrong in every respect, financially, commercially but most of all socially and on a humanitarian level. The Taoiseach showed great courage in speaking as he did. Senator Ryan stated that seven or eight countries in Europe would not go along with that practice. Every sector of employment could be used in that way.
It is not redundancy at all.
No, it is not. It is masquerading under the guise of redundancy. The same thing could happen in the retail sector or some other sector of employment. Workers from other countries are being invited to come here and work for half-price. It is a terrible situation. I hope there is no watering down of the Taoiseach's condemnation of it.
Senator O'Toole also referred to the partnership programme. I agree with him. It does force people to talk, not just to each other but to listen and talk to other groupings. That is the glue that binds it together. We will have to wait and see. I hope this does not put an obstacle in the way of the present arrangement.
I fully agree with Senator Ryan that the Taoiseach's words must be translated into legislation. Among the many statistics he gave, he stated that six people were convicted in the area of taxation while 36 people were convicted and jailed for social welfare fraud. This pointedly shows up the difference between rich and poor. He also referred to the partnership process.
Senator Ó Murchú stated that one of the marks of a civic society is tolerance and respect for other religions. He condemned the use of the Last Supper as a gambling tool. People in advertising should use their talents more creatively.
Senator Bannon sought a debate on Sellafield. Senator Morrissey stated there would shortly be a capacity issue at Dublin Port and that the port in Drogheda is moving to Bremore. He asked if the Minister of State with responsibility for this area, Deputy Gallagher, could come to the House to discuss the matter. He also condemned what he described as Irish Ferries' race to the bottom, which would be the outcome. It is completely against everything Europe and most human beings stands for.
Senator Mansergh said Irish Ferries should be called "Central and Eastern European Ferries". He correctly pointed out that the Bill we will discuss today, which is a European directive translated into legislation, should be a suitable vehicle for the views that have been expressed here. The Senator said that if extra Revenue staff are necessary, they should be provided. I agree. Revenue would make up the cost in full when the money came back in.
Senator Mansergh offered a robust defence of Government decisions. One would be paralysed if one did not make decisions and all further action would be paralysed. The Senator also defended public servants. Mr. Trichet, president of the European Central Bank, said that Ireland has the best functioning economy in Europe.
Hear, hear.
That was some accolade. We are so busy beating ourselves up that we do not make the good points. Certainly, Mr. Trichet's remark was a good point.
Senator Maurice Hayes referred to immigration policy and said the Polish version of Newsweek had a very damning report on how the Poles perceive themselves to be treated in Ireland. The Polish people are everywhere, including in hotels, restaurants and shops. They are invariably courteous and seem to be very good at their jobs. We had a debate on immigration shortly before the recess and the rule on repetition might rule out our having another in the near future. However, we will see.
Senator McHugh referred to the Polish workers. He also stated there should be a one-stop-shop for students. I could not agree more. They are running around bewildered wondering whether they should go to the VEC or the county council or whether they should apply to the college directly. Their heads are spinning and their parents' purses are emptying and therefore a one-stop-shop for all third level grants would be a very good idea.
Senator Lydon wants a debate on the Middle East, including Iran, Iraq and Israel. He is right to call for one because we did not have such a debate before the recess. We will seek one. The Senator called upon the perpetrators of the advertisement using the image of the Last Supper to withdraw it.
Senator Kitt referred to the Comptroller and Auditor General's report and mentioned the clampers at Croke Park. Clamping is a policy and if one parks where one is not supposed to park, one will get clamped. We would all be subject to that.
On Senator Daly's remarks, it was suggested yesterday by Senator O'Toole that we should have a debate on regional transport, including a discussion on the Shannon and what is happening in regard to the bilateral talks. I thank the Senator for the suggestion. We will see if such a debate can be arranged.
Senator Quinn referred to Dr. T.K. Whitaker. I missed the relevant story in the newspaper. I am delighted for Dr. Whitaker. It shows——
Okay.
I have to curb my tongue. After three months, it is hard, a Chathaoirligh. It is very difficult.
After Senator Quinn had vanished from the Chamber yesterday, I praised him on his excellent article on the Oireachtas in The Irish Times.
Senator Ormonde called for a debate on immigration and asked a very relevant question which I cannot address because the Cathaoirleach will not allow me to do so.
It is not relevant to the Order of Business.
It is an interesting point.
It is interesting, but not to this House.
Senator Glynn called for a debate on cystic fibrosis, men's health and type 2 diabetes. It would be difficult to frame a health debate just on those three issues but we will have to find some mechanism for doing so because he has been raising the matter for some time.
There would be no problem having a debate on type 2 diabetes which is ravaging the country.
Order of Business agreed to.