Order of Business.

Senator Donie Cassidy

The Order of Business is No. 1, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2008 — Second Stage (resumed), to be taken on the conclusion of the Order of Business and to adjourn not later than 2 p.m., if not previously concluded, with spokespersons having 15 minutes, all other Senators ten minutes, and on which Senators may share time by agreement of the House; No. 3, Harbours (Amendment) Bill 2008 — Order for Second Stage and Second Stage, to be taken on the conclusion of No. 1, with spokespersons having 12 minutes, all other Senators ten minutes, and on which Senators may share time by agreement of the House; and No. 23, motion 21 re investment in education, to be taken at the conclusion of No. 3. The business of the House will be interrupted from 2 p.m. to 2.30 p.m.

Colleagues will note there is a change in the Order of Business. I propose to take the Harbours (Amendment) Bill in place of the statements on banking. We expect the regulations when the Government has concluded its deliberations. I will inform the House accordingly as we proceed day by day.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

It would appear from what the Leader has said that we will not receive the scheme and regulations to underline the Credit Institutions (Financial Support) Act 2008 this week. Given the urgency with which the issue was dealt with last week in both Houses, many people on this side of the House will be very concerned that the scheme has not been completed by Government and that it is not being presented to the Houses this week. Will the Leader make a statement on that and bring us up to date on when these regulations will be introduced to the Dáil and Seanad? It is critical that taxpayers feel protected. An undertaking was given to Fine Gael and Labour in both Houses that the regulations and the scheme would be presented to both Houses and that we would have an opportunity to respond to them.

The United Kingdom Government has dealt with the matter overnight. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business that the Minister for Finance would come to the House to explain why the scheme is not ready and to give Members an indication of the Government's thinking on the matter, the duration of the expected delay and when we can expect to hear from Government that the scheme will be presented to both Houses. It is in taxpayers' interests that we have the detail of the scheme.

In addition, the United Kingdom has placed a cap on bankers' salaries, for example, a move that was rejected by the Government. Many people feel the area of remuneration was not dealt with adequately last week and needs to be dealt with under the scheme. We need a presentation on the details. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business in order to hear from the Minister on the exact position.

I wish to ask the Leader about the recommendations contained in the recent reports from the Morris tribunal, including the somewhat surprising findings in regard to two of our colleagues who felt they were acting in the public interest. What is the Government's response to the recommendations in the Morris tribunal report on Deputies or Senators receiving anonymous information and how that is acted upon?

Senator Joe O’Toole

It is reasonable to ask for the Government to outline its position on the scheme. A commitment was given to bring in the regulation this week. While supporting the call for an explanation, I am not saying the Government should rush the delivery of the scheme. If I were in Government, I would favour examining the detail some more. However, if there has been a change of mind by the Government on the timing of the publication of the scheme, we are entitled to be informed because we discussed the matter at length and, in that regard, the request of Senator Fitzgerald is reasonable.

Despite the significant intervention by the UK Government, amounting to some £60 billion sterling, the UK markets dropped this morning. The reason for this is clear. It was an admission by the UK Government that their banks are undercapitalised. Our Financial Regulator has said consistently, and he is not the only person, that our banks are not undercapitalised. The Minister for Finance said the same thing in the House last week. That is a solid position if we hold it and it should not mean anything to the people in the market who trade on the basis of supply and demand and dropping prices. However, the matter is interesting. The UK Government made another intervention this morning. Apart from the intervention just mentioned, it copied the Irish Government by providing a guarantee on deposits and other activities. It will be interesting to see how the markets respond. However, it seems nothing will impact on the markets as there is merely a lack of confidence and it will take time to restore it. We should not be rushing after the markets and we must try to deal with the matter as cleverly as we can.

The Private Members' motion deals with education and I look forward to discussing it. However, there is a specific issue on which I wish to comment. Every month the Cathaoirleach receives a deluge of requests seeking an update on the progress of schools building projects. The issue is not related to a quantum or sum of money, rather it is a question of how business is done. I have dealt with buildings for primary education for more than 30 years and the problem is that no one in the Dáil or Seanad, including myself, can explain to an ordinary punter or school management board what is happening with a given school building project.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Hear, hear.

Senator Joe O’Toole

There are bands which determine the order of priority of applications, there are stages of building, there are teams which are changed at will, and there is ministerial intervention built into the process without any criteria. The system is opaque and there is a lack of transparency and understanding. Will the Minister for Education and Science come to the Seanad to discuss the matter without discussing a particular school and we promise not to ask questions about specific schools? The Minister could explain to us how the system works from the moment an application is submitted, how an application goes from band to band, which does not happen, how an application is assigned a band, and how it proceeds from bands to stages, since no one has ever been told this happens automatically. How does an application proceed automatically through stages one, two, three, four and five up to stages eight and nine? It is not unreasonable to demand an explanation for this.

The system is opaque and I have asked the Comptroller and Auditor General to investigate the matter because I believe there is poor value for money in this area. Most applicants would be prepared to wait if they knew the position, but what drives applicants mad is not knowing. They write and telephone us asking if we can find out and we cannot provide the information. There is a significant problem if elected Members of the Oireachtas cannot find the information to satisfy themselves. People will not necessarily be happy with the outcome but we at least should know the answers.

Senator Paul Coghlan

Hear, hear.

Senator Alex White

I support and agree with the concerns expressed about the delay in bringing forward the scheme which the Minister for Finance said would come to both Houses. We have seen what happened this morning in the UK. I respectfully disagree with Senator O'Toole in that I do not believe it is accurate to say the UK Government has copied the Irish Government. That is not true. The UK Government has taken preference shares in the banks it has proposed to assist and it has included a requirement that any bank wishing to participate in the scheme must sign up to an agreement on executive pay and dividends. There are many other differences between the UK Government's proposal and what has been done here.

The Financial Regulator has said there is no difficulty with the capitalisation of the Irish banks. Senator O'Toole, as in the past, believes we should accept that statement. However, we have been asked to accept other statements from and about the banks in recent months which have proven to be not true. I note a nuance in the comments of the Minister for Finance this morning. He said, as Senator O'Toole mentioned, he does not believe there is a difficulty with undercapitalisation. However, the Minister for Finance, rather ominously, stated things are changing by the day. Therefore, it is not at all clear that there is not a difficulty with undercapitalisation in Irish banks.

I agree with the comments of Senator Fitzgerald and I ask the Leader to reflect on this matter. What is the current position in Ireland with respect to the guarantee?

Senator Paul Coghlan

There is no guarantee.

Senator Alex White

There is no guarantee is the answer. The Minister for Finance and the Government announced an intention to provide a guarantee, which was a plan for the future, but there is no guarantee for today. This is a serious situation of which I do not make light as a talking point for debate. However, the seriousness of the situation is increased with a further delay in the presentation of the scheme.

The delay also raises the question of what we were doing here last week in the overnight session. What was the point of it? We passed enabling legislation which has not been acted upon. Therefore, apart from the amendments to the competition legislation which, although important, are marginal, the content of the legislation, the scheme and the guarantee are meaningless because nothing has been carried out. What were we doing here overnight last week? I do not have any difficulty with making myself available, nor do my colleagues. However, the sum total of our efforts adds to nothing because it has changed nothing. Our job is not to provide an overnight supporters' rally for the work of the Government or the Minister for Finance. We are legislators and we are constitutionally required to scrutinise proposed legislation. The scheme was supposed to be brought before the Houses. Unless and until this happens, there is no Irish guarantee; it simply does not exist yet. This is a reflection of the seriousness of the matter.

The Government's intentions are becoming less, rather than more, clear with each day. The Minister for Finance has now indicated, perhaps correctly, the possibility of a limit on the amount of deposits banks can take on. I do not claim he has no basis for the comments, but it shows how unclear things are for us as legislators. The developments in the UK this morning will have implications for foreign owned banks operating in Ireland. They may well be covered by the UK guarantee. That will have implications for what we do with our scheme and there is the wider EU context. The situation is sliding by the day. As for all the talk and congratulations we indulged in last week for being first into the breach, it looks like we may well be one of the last into the breach in completing a proper scheme to put before the Houses and implement a guarantee. I repeat, and I ask the Leader to agree or disagree with me whether I am right, at present, there is no Irish guarantee.

Senator Marc MacSharry

At the outset I will comment on the scheme, which it is hoped will come to the House next week. The developments in the UK this morning are welcome. As Senator Alex White said, there are implications in that scheme for us. Despite the dithering in the United States of America and other European countries in recent weeks, I am glad we came out last week with decisive action. We passed enabling legislation which provides the template for the various State agencies involved and the Cabinet to design the optimum scheme which is best for the Irish economy and banking system. Perhaps we have learned from the mistakes and dithering of these other countries. I am pleased, as is Senator O'Toole, that we are taking time over this to ensure we get it absolutely right.

There are aspects of the British scheme which I favour. There is to be a cap on executive salaries and the UK Government is taking preference shares. While there is not a clear indication in the legislation that we will go down that route in our scheme, the Act does provide that the Minister for Finance and the Government could go down that route.

There is a precarious international situation. We must continue to be agile and remain in a position to act as necessary. We played a very important role in putting the legislation in place last week which allows the Government the necessary freedom and agility. It is a most unusual situation, as Senator O'Toole said. We have finally had decisive action from the United Kingdom Government yet the markets continue to fall in the UK this morning. Time will be the ultimate healer in that regard and we must give it that time. I am sure the Leader will clarify the position this morning by giving us an update on the scheme and when the details will be laid before the House but I welcome the fact that we are taking the appropriate time, and not rushing matters, to ensure we have the optimum scheme.

I ask the Leader for a debate on the Health Service Executive as a matter of the utmost urgency, particularly in the context of plans the Department of Health and Children may have to re-regionalise. That is important because many of us are unhappy with the way the HSE has been operating in recent months and we could do with clarification as to future plans.

Such a debate might also give us an opportunity to debate the issue of BreastCheck, which I mentioned in the House last week, and the disgraceful way the people in the north west are being discriminated against, despite numerous undertakings from the chief executive of BreastCheck, and aspects of the HSE, that the service would be up and running by the end of 2006. That is not the case. As we heard from Senator McCarthy last week, people who are deceased are being called for mammograms in the south. In the north west, the living are most anxious to be called to have these mammograms.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

It is a disgraceful service.

Senator Marc MacSharry

I ask the Minister to come before the House as a matter of the utmost urgency to clarify a variety of issues to do with the HSE and the most important issue of BreastCheck.

Senator Liam Twomey

We must have a serious debate on the banking sector. A major sense of urgency was created last week that has metamorphosised into a degree of incompetence and insecurity about what we are supposed to be doing this week. People may want to fool themselves into thinking we are doing the right thing here but what we must watch are the markets. The Irish stock market crashed on the last two Monday mornings. That is creating a sense of uncertainty in the market. I ask the Leader of the House to face up to what we must do here. We must have a proper debate. I am not sure if the Leader is paying attention. He is probably sick talking about banking but there is a need to discuss this matter seriously. Investors in the Irish stock market have no confidence in this country. We have seen the stock market crash on the last two Mondays and we are still congratulating ourselves on what we did last week. Nothing was done here last week. I agree with Senator Alex White on that. I agree with Senator Fitzgerald that we must have continuous discussion on this issue and the Government must wake up to what is going on. It is a complicated issue. The scheme may not be introduced this week or even next week but we must have a continuing discussion as to what is going on with the Minister involved and let the general public know what is going on because uncertainty is being created and that will continue to hit the markets and confidence in the Irish banking sector if we do not do something about it. Those discussions should continue with or without the introduction of the scheme.

Senator Michael McCarthy

Will the Leader clarify the time the debate on the Harbours (Amendment) Bill will begin? If I heard him correctly, he said it would be at the conclusion of No. 1, which is 2 p.m. but the schedule indicates 2.30 p.m. I would appreciate it if the Leader would clarify that.

I agree with Senator O'Toole who raised the issue of the school buildings programme. I attended a meeting on Monday night regarding a particular school in Kinsale and heard all the jargon used by the Department in regard to bands, design stage and the different stages involved in the process of delivering the various programmes. It is very difficult to face parents, the board of management, teachers and staff and tell them that I do not know when the school will be delivered. Along with Senator O'Toole, I believe the manner in which the Department delivers these schemes must be debated. We must know the timeframe involved when the process moves from one stage to the next and what the local people on the ground need to do to advance that. That is important. As we see no improvement in the current economic climate it is more important than ever that we ensure this country has a decent education infrastructure to deliver the graduates of the future who are required not only to reboot the economy but to keep the economy going.

I want to raise the issue of a national insulation scheme. Given the current economic turmoil this country and other European Union member states are going through, it is important that we have, first, an economic strategy to reboot the economy. Second, an issue put forward by my party on many occasions which is proactive, positive and important in the week before the Minister frames his first budget is the introduction of a national insulation scheme. There are a number of benefits to such a scheme. First, it produces more energy efficient homes. Second, it provides employment for those who have lost their jobs due to the downturn in the construction industry and, third, it takes people off social welfare and gets them back to contributing tax revenues to the State. It is one important policy the Government would not be doing any harm by implementing.

Senator Eugene Regan

There is only one issue in regard to the banking crisis we have talked about but it is the issue the Minister is avoiding on every occasion, namely, capitalisation. The Minister said in Brussels after the ECOFIN meeting that the issue of recapitalisation of banks was being considered by some EU states but he did not believe that policy was necessary in Ireland, although he considered that events were moving very quickly. Events are moving very quickly and the action by the UK authorities is an indication of that. The statement from the Minister, however, shows that he does not understand the banking crisis and that he does not make the distinction between liquidity and solvency. He does not realise that the State guarantee cannot resolve the issue of capitalisation and that Irish banks are no different from banks in the United Kingdom or on continental Europe. The fact is that the State guarantee promulgated last week has been overtaken by events.

Senator Alex White

Hear, hear.

Senator Eugene Regan

I support Senator Fitzgerald's proposal to amend the Order of Business because the Minister must make a statement on this issue. If he does not understand the situation it is well set out by Patrick Honohan, professor of international financial economics at the department of economics in Trinity College Dublin today in The Irish Times and by David McWilliams in The Independent. We must recapitalise our banks if the banks are to play a role in avoiding a protracted recession. I ask that the Minister make a statement on that. There is an issue of further intervention by the Government. There are legislative frameworks in place to deal with that, such as the Asset Covered Securities Act 2001. The Minister must seriously address this issue.

I want to raise the issue of the report to the Oireachtas from the Morris tribunal and the statement in that report on the two public representatives, Jim Higgins MEP and Deputy Brendan Howlin, whose intervention unearthed the enormous injustice done to the McBrearty family. It is beyond me how the chairman of the tribunal could work into the script such negative statements about those two Opposition politicians.

Senators

Hear, hear.

Senator Eugene Regan

It is unfair, unreasonable and perverse. We should follow the recommendation in the tribunal and the Oireachtas should review the way public representatives deal with allegations that are passed to them, but to suggest, with all respects to the chairman of that tribunal, that two public representatives, by passing on to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform unedited the information they had received, were wrong is absurd.

Senator Frances Fitzgerald

"Perverse" is the word.

Senator Eugene Regan

We should follow up on that recommendation. While the two public representatives have legal redress, the Oireachtas should examine that matter because we are all at a loss as to what we should do when we receive allegations against public bodies.

Senator Rónán Mullen

I echo what my colleague, Senator O'Toole, said about the need for a debate on the system whereby schools are approved for works and the current opaque system but I would like to ask specifically for a debate on the state of our schools. Senator O'Toole is right. We come into this House with specific requests for explanations on the Adjournment about the plans for particular schools but in many ways we believe we are engaging in some kind of pretence because in raising the matter on the Adjournment we get stock answers. Whole sections of responses to Adjournment matters appear to have been cut and pasted whereby the Minister thanks the person raising the matter for the opportunity to explain what the Department of Education and Science is doing in regard to schools.

One could mention many cases. When I visited a school for approximately 90 minutes a few months ago, I witnessed the appalling state of affairs there. I have since learned that, on the resumption of the school year, a teacher in the school was close to tears as, yet again, she had to mop up after floods and get rid of insects. I could mention all sorts of circumstances, which are contrary to human dignity, in which we are educating the next generation. I ask for a debate not just on the issue Senator O'Toole has raised, but also on the specific issue of the state of our schools. Now that we are in a downturn, do we intend to neglect the next generation, which comprise the most important section of society? I refer in particular to those who have to endure appalling and disrespectful conditions in our schools.

Speaking of disrespect, I would like to mention an issue that has been raised by Deputies Higgins and Shortall in the Dáil. I refer to the treatment of some people by immigration officials as they try to enter the State. We are all aware of what happened to Fr. John Achebe recently. The responses given by the Minister, Deputy Dermot Ahern, when this case was raised in the Dáil were not adequate. We have to be concerned about this human dignity issue. How are people treated when they come to this State? If people are essentially dealt with on the basis of the colour of their skin, does the potential not exist for some form of veiled racism? I do not accuse all immigration officials of racism. Some people are essentially treated as suspect. If the slightest misunderstanding develops, they are sent to Cloverhill Prison. A man from India was treated in this manner after he won a holiday in Ireland as part of a tourism promotion initiative. Is that any way to deal with human beings? When questions are raised, is it acceptable——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator has made his point. We do not want a Second Stage speech.

Senator Rónán Mullen

We need to debate whether it is acceptable for Government responses to contain such spin. For example, when one asks a question, one is told that the approximately 3,000 people who are refused permission to enter the State each year account for just 0.012% of the 25 million passengers who pass through our airports annually. That is simply spin. It shows a lack of respect.

An Cathaoirleach

If the Leader agrees to a debate, such matters can be discussed. We do not want Second Stage speeches on the Order of Business.

Senator Larry Butler

It has come to my attention that the problems being experienced by the banks are leading to a scarcity of credit being available to this country's small and medium sized businesses. Perhaps the Leader can take up this issue. The lack of credit is exacerbating the other problems associated with the recession. Over 1 million people are employed by small businesses. A proper line of credit should be available to businesses which are entering difficult times to ensure they can maintain current staffing levels. I agree with Senator Regan that the Minister will probably have to take a number of steps. However, it is disgraceful to say that he does not understand the situation.

Senator Mary M. White

Hear, hear.

Senator Larry Butler

Of course he understands the situation, just as everybody else does. It is a day-to-day situation. I suggest to Senator Regan, with respect, that he does not understand it, no more than I do.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

The Senators on the Government side are balanced.

Senator Paudie Coffey

Their idea of balance is different from ours.

Senator Larry Butler

Senator Dominic Hannigan

I agree with what my colleague, Senator Alex White, said earlier. Some Senators have queried the levels of understanding within this House about the banking crisis. I cannot understand how we will be expected to vote on a budget next week without having seen the details of the scheme. We do not have details of how much it will cost the country. We do not know anything about contingencies. How does the Minister expect us to vote on his budget without seeing the details of the scheme? I agree with other Senators who have called for the Minister to attend the House and make a statement on this.

It was revealed in a newspaper article this morning that 20% of students who appeal their leaving certificate results are successful. This rate varies from subject to subject. For example, there is a 20% chance of an upgrade in biology, and a 30% chance in geography. These are factual subjects and I would have thought that one is right or wrong in the first place. The problem with such high levels of success is that they will impact on confidence in the system. Any student who does not get the grade that he or she hoped for will appeal, as this is now the sensible thing to do. That can clog up the system and leads to difficulties at the beginning of college terms. I would like the Leader to ask the Minister to review the whole process of how we mark these papers. It is vital that we restore confidence to the system.

(Interruptions).

Senator Paudie Coffey

While the debate on the financial turmoil continues, there are still human issues to be addressed, one of which is the roll out of BreastCheck. Waterford city, with a population of over 50,000, is one of the largest urban centres of the country. Senator MacSharry referred to the commitment of the HSE, but in a letter to the South Eastern Cancer Foundation just before the general election in May 2007, the then Taoiseach wrote to say that BreastCheck would be rolled out by the end of 2007 in Waterford city. The Minister for Health and Children also stated in this House that BreastCheck would be rolled out by the end of this year, yet still there is no sign of it. That is a reflection of the accountability and the responsibility of the Government regarding health issues in this country. Will the Leader to ask the Minister to attend the House to discuss health care in general, but especially primary health care and screening programmes like BreastCheck.

The women of Waterford, calling themselves WOW, are taking to the streets on 15 October, pleading for this much needed service to be rolled out. It is a disgrace that the women have to come on to the streets and campaign in order to get this essential service. It is an indictment of our health system, and the Minister should be held accountable. I ask the Leader to bring her before the House to answer for it.

I call for a general debate on primary health care. We are always talking about the acute situation in hospitals and the lack of beds. If the primary health service in this country was developed so that preventative medicine can be fully adopted in GP practices, we would go a long way to preventing many of the serious diseases that are affecting our nation.

I also support the comments that Senator Ó Murchú made earlier today on the Morris tribunal. Oireachtas Members have a privileged position where we get information from people and we are asked to do things about it. I regret the comments that were made about the honourable step taken by former Deputy Jim Higgins and Deputy Howlin. We need to have a debate in both Houses about the status of Members of the Houses and what is expected of them when they receive information like that. I heard Deputy Howlin speak yesterday about it, and he was deeply confused as to what was expected of him. Most people would agree that he did the honourable thing in speaking quietly to the Minister.

The level of inquiry that is afforded these Houses and their committees is constantly being eroded. We need to establish once and for all what can be expected of us. I would like a debate on the issue. Perhaps such a debate is one for the commission rather than for the Chamber, but I would like to be advised as to what we can do in establishing the rights and the legitimate function of Members.

Senator David Norris

We will have to return to the international financial crisis. I am confused because Senator Butler stated that it was a disgrace for Fine Gael to say that the Minister did not understand the situation, then he accused Fine Gael of not understanding the situation either. I am not fully sure I understand the situation, or that I have heard anybody who has given a clear, comprehensive view of how we can get out of it. I am somewhat reassured, having listened to my distinguished colleague, Senator Ross, on "Today With Pat Kenny", on how to cope with the situation. He was joined by Mr. Nick Leeson, who agreed with him that there should be a bloodletting at the top of the banks——

Senator Paul Coghlan

He has some form there.

Senator David Norris

——and that the banks were guilty of the irresponsible leverage situation. When I heard those two voices agreeing, I said to myself that there is no need for me to worry because I am happy to admit my lack of understanding. However, I now believe the problem is capitalisation, as several people here have indicated. There is now a discordance between the regulator on the one hand, who has said that the banks are properly capitalised, and the instinct of the stock market on the other hand, which clearly does not believe him. This is a matter of confidence and if we are to restore such confidence, it behoves the regulator to come out with more clear, solid factual information. If he is right, this will restore confidence. If he is not right, then we should know it now. Various European governments, having criticised Ireland for the action it took last week, are now all following us. That suggests we have done the right thing.

I will finish on this point. Deputy Howlin made the point that he was given this information by a senior barrister with 22 years' criminal experience at the Bar and he believed it. It was appropriate to pass on this information to the Minister.

I share the concerns about immigration as expressed by various speakers, including Senator Mullen. The Immigration, Residence and Protection Bill, which will come to the House shortly, is quite defective. I attended a briefing in the Incorporated Law Society of Ireland——

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator can speak about what he regards as the defects in the Bill when it comes to the House.

Senator David Norris

I wish to make this point because it is in anticipation of the Bill. I have arranged for a briefing for Members of the House by the two legal experts who gave the original briefing because I think we can have a much more informed debate if we listen to a detailed analysis. The briefing will be held in the audio-visual room at the end of the month.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

I second Senator Frances Fitzgerald's proposal to amend the Order of Business. Will the Leader clarify whether the Minister for Finance and the Government will postpone the budget next week, given that we do not have the legislation before the House this week? Will the Leader clarify there will not be a change of plan regarding the budget? As others Senators have said, it is difficult to vote for something and then have a budget when we do not have the cost factor.

I join other speakers in raising the issue of political responsibility. It is important we have a debate on our duty as public representatives in light of the Morris tribunal findings. I welcome that Fianna Fáil Members support tribunals at last and their conversion is welcome.

Senator Mary M. White

We set them up.

Senator Jerry Buttimer

Former Senator Jim Higgins and Deputy Howlin acted very courageously. It poses a pertinent question for all public representatives as to what we do when we are given information. Where do we go to? They went to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform. What do we do? To whom do we talk? They put the country first and, as Senator Norris said, they had no power to investigate. It is important we have a debate on this issue.

Senator Alan Kelly

I agree we need a statement from the Minister for Finance as it is pertinent after the events of last week. I concur with my colleague, Senator Alex White, who summed up the situation very well. We are now in no-man's land and until the Minister clarifies where we are going, we are at a loss.

In reply to Senators Hanafin and O'Malley, the Labour Party is very happy with its position on this issue and we sleep soundly in our beds, happy with the course we have taken. Many people are very concerned about the charges to be levied on banks. Unless there is some equity involved, many people do not believe that the banks will be dealt with in a manner which the majority of us believe they should be. It is fascinating the Progressive Democrats Party is criticising the Labour Party for the actions it is taking. It sounds like the last call from a dying party, the party of deregulation that is now finally coming around to our way of thinking and advocating regulation.

An Cathaoirleach

A question on the Order of Business, please.

Senator Alan Kelly

I agree wholeheartedly with people across the House who have raised the issue of the Morris tribunal. It is a very good report but unfortunately overshadowed by something which in my view is fundamentally wrong. The way in which these two former Members of this House were treated in the report is quite worrying. All Members receive information from time to time. If such information is of such a magnitude, how do we deal with it? Whom do we go to and how do we act responsibly? We need to discuss these questions.

I have asked the Leader this question before and he might indulge me and get some answers. There is a major debate, especially for the Government, regarding the public finances. Sometimes there is a fixation on the public finances as opposed to the real economy. Instead of discussing numbers in many areas, especially those at the lower scales in the civil and public service, the Leader might ask the Department of Finance, through his Government, to conduct an audit of the number of buildings throughout the country proposed for State bodies and the Civil Service so as to highlight the waste.

A performance management process was introduced under the last pay deal and it has been conducted across the public service. The Leader might ask the Department of Finance to conduct an audit of how performance management is being applied to senior managers and chief executives through the chairpersons of boards, etc. Is it being conducted? My information is that, in many cases, it is not. At a time when taxpayers expect value for money and good service delivery and those on the lower levels within the civil and public service must work under this system, senior managers should do so as well.

Senator Donie Cassidy

To clarify matters for Senator McCarthy, I propose a sos from 2 p.m. to 2.30 p.m at the conclusion of No. 1, so the Harbours (Amendment) Bill will commence at 2.30 p.m.

Senators Fitzgerald, O'Toole, Alex White, MacSharry, Twomey, Regan, Buttimer, Coghlan, Hannigan, O'Malley, Norris, Kelly and Butler expressed their concerns about the forthcoming regulations and issues concerning the ongoing banking situation. The Taoiseach informed the Dáil this morning that work on the scheme for the guaranteed banking scheme is being carried out by officials from the Department of Finance, the Central Bank and the Financial Regulator with a view to finalising it as quickly as possible. The board of the Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland discussed the scheme on Monday evening and it will feed its recommendations into the finalisation of the scheme. It is emphasised that there will be a need for discussions on the draft scheme later this week between the Irish authorities and the European Commission with regard to state aid and competition requirements.

Senators will be aware that the Minister for Finance met the European Commissioner for competition on Monday evening to discuss the Government's approach and contacts are ongoing as the work proceeds. The issues discussed at the meeting between Commissioner Kroes and the Minister for Finance are being factored into the drafting of the scheme. A particular priority in this regard is to ensure the scheme appropriately addresses the issues of subsidiaries of overseas parent companies operating in Ireland with a substantial main street retail presence.

I assure the House that it is a priority to ensure the scheme will be laid before both Houses as soon as possible. The Taoiseach said the Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, and the Commissioner agreed it was important to take steps to guard against undue distortions of financial flows and the Minister indicated that these concerns would be addressed through the implementing measures currently being drafted which will provide for behavioural and quantitative balance sheet controls. That is the up-to-date position as the Taoiseach has informed the Dáil just a few moments ago. I will update the House daily as we are sitting. Tomorrow morning I will have a further update on the timeframe for the proposed regulations for the Bill.

Senators correctly pointed out their concerns regarding the Morris tribunal report. I will discuss this with party leaders after today's Order of Business to see how we may progress the matter and what we can do concerning this fine report. At the same time, we must see how we can assist public representatives, particularly former Members of this House, who acted decently and honourably in the discharge of their duties.

Senators McCarthy, O'Toole, Mullen and Hannigan sought clarity on the programme for schools building projects. I well remember that when Deputy Noel Dempsey was the Minister for Education and Science he got to terms with this matter. We all had a clear understanding of where schools in our constituencies stood in order of priority. This matter should be revisited and questions asked during Private Members' business this evening.

Senator Joe O’Toole

Let us do that.

Senator Donie Cassidy

Senator O'Toole, who I know supports me on this, can then ask the Minister if we can return to the situation as it pertained when Deputy Dempsey held that portfolio. As a former teacher, he would have known about the pressures involved. Now is the time when we can get tremendous value for money from school building projects and hopefully this matter can be included in the Government's budgetary deliberations.

Senators MacSharry and Coffey sought clarification of media reports that the HSE is to be regionalised. We will pursue this matter. The excellent BreastCheck service is not available everywhere, so we hope it can be prioritised by the HSE. I will arrange for such a debate at the earliest possible opportunity with the Minister for Health and Children, Deputy Harney, present.

I will convey to the Minister for Justice, Equality and Law Reform Senator Mullen's views on the treatment of persons entering the State.

Senator Butler, who has enormous experience in public life, referred to the availability of credit. This is an important issue given the announcement this morning by the British Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Darling. The current difficulty in the commercial world is that banks have stopped loaning to each other. This is the biggest single issue because we can come to terms with the economic downturn as soon as everyone allows the system to work. If banks continue their policy of not loaning to each other, however, everything will gradually come to a standstill. This is the driving factor for all governments that are currently trying to come to terms with the problems in the banking sector.

My own view is that the fall in share values is down to high interest rates. I look forward to an interest rate reduction in the United Kingdom, which will affect most of us in Ireland, but particularly from the midlands to Antrim because it concerns Border county business. The activities of the Ulster Bank and the Bank of Scotland are very important to us because those brand names operate quite successfully across the island of Ireland. I also look forward to a substantial interest rate reduction in the EU, which would restore confidence and kick-start firms that have been providing employment for generations.

I will convey to the Minister for Finance Senator Kelly's views on the public finances and an audit on State buildings. We can also discuss these matters in the House when we have a debate on the budget. I will try to facilitate the Senator's request at my next meeting with the party Leaders.

The Seanad divided: Tá, 20; Níl, 23.

Tá

Burke, Paddy.
Buttimer, Jerry.
Coffey, Paudie.
Coghlan, Paul.
Cummins, Maurice.
Doherty, Pearse.
Donohoe, Paschal.
Fitzgerald, Frances.
Hannigan, Dominic.
Healy Eames, Fidelma.
Kelly, Alan.
McFadden, Nicky.
Norris, David.
O’Reilly, Joe.
O’Toole, Joe.
Phelan, John Paul.
Regan, Eugene.
Ross, Shane.
Ryan, Brendan.
Twomey, Liam.

Níl

Boyle, Dan.
Brady, Martin.
Butler, Larry.
Carty, John.
Cassidy, Donie.
Corrigan, Maria.
Ellis, John.
Feeney, Geraldine.
Glynn, Camillus.
Hanafin, John.
Keaveney, Cecilia.
Leyden, Terry.
MacSharry, Marc.
McDonald, Lisa.
Ó Domhnaill, Brian.
Ó Murchú, Labhrás.
O’Malley, Fiona.
O’Sullivan, Ned.
Ormonde, Ann.
Phelan, Kieran.
Walsh, Jim.
White, Mary M.
Wilson, Diarmuid.

Tellers: Tá, Senators Paudie Coffey and Maurice Cummins; Níl, Senators Fiona O’Malley and Diarmuid Wilson.

Amendment declared lost..

Order of Business agreed to.

Seanad Éireann debate - Wednesday, 8 Oct 2008

Order of Business.

Senators

Tá

Níl

Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Oct 2008