Seanad Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 24 May 2017

Vol. 252 No. 2

Commencement Matters

HSE Correspondence

Senator Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank the Minister of State for coming to the House. The reason I have brought this matter to the attention of the Minister and the Minister of State is because I am looking for a formal structure to be put in place for meetings with the HSE. I will give a rough guide of what has been happening to me in Carlow. In August 2016, I requested follow-up on Tír na nÓg respite services. I was told the HSE would come back to me, which it did not. On 29 March I sent an email. I wanted to familiarise myself with the HSE and find out how I could meet the Department. Again, I was to get a response. On 10 April 2017 I received a reply enclosing an information booklet for Oireachtas Members of the Thirty-second Dáil and the Twenty-fifth Seanad, which I had already received on 7 March. As this was not what I had requested, on 15 May I again requested a meeting and provided a list of items I wanted to discuss, but I never heard anything back. On 17 May I got back in touch with the HSE to request meetings. Today, I received a reply with the same booklet. It is constantly sending me the booklet. As I mentioned, this is not what I originally wanted.

My colleague on Carlow County Council, Councillor Arthur McDonald, is a representative on the HSE's regional health forum. On three occasions I have requested a meeting with officials but have not heard anything back. Three notices of motion were tabled but I never heard anything back. Several weeks ago, a meeting was held and Councillor McDonald again asked that I meet officials. Again, I heard nothing back. Holy Angels Day Care Centre has also been seeking a meeting but has heard nothing from the Department.

Several weeks ago, the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, told me the ambulance service base building was going ahead. We have had no correspondence but it is meant to have started. I want to follow up on this. I also want to follow up on the Tír na nÓg respite service. There are palliative care issues in Laois and Carlow but we know nothing. In December, a proposal on medical cards with regard to youth mental health was submitted to the HSE but nothing has been heard on this. I want to follow up on this. Several months ago, an 82-year-old woman came to my clinic. She had fallen and went to Kilkenny hospital from where she was sent to Waterford because she dislocated her shoulder and Kilkenny does not deal with this sort of injury so that is fair enough.

She was there and then she was sent home. The hospital then told her that it could not actually look after her because, ten years ago, when she had private insurance with VHI, she had hurt the same shoulder. She was told then that she did not qualify and that she would have to go back to her private health insurance. She said she was a medical card holder. That lady of 82 years of age was sent home from Kilkenny hospital and Waterford hospital, and told that the matter would be addressed. She was left in pain. I contacted the health board and heard nothing.

I then had problem with the dental services. The HSE closed the dental service in Bagenalstown so it means that any school-goers - for example those in primary school in fourth and sixth class - either have to go to Kilkenny or Carlow. I was looking for an update on that, and I believe other HSE services have been cut as well.

The other matter I want to address is that I spoke to a lady a few weeks ago who was in a motorised wheelchair. Over the weekend, I could not find anybody to fix her wheelchair because I did not know what Department to go to.

There are so many issues there that I need to speak to the HSE about. I need to find the avenues to deal with issues. I know I am not going to get everything sorted but there is a lack of communication and no word back on anything. No matter how many times I request meetings, I am fobbed off. We as Senators, councillors or anyone in our area who represent people need to meet with the HSE on a regular basis. I bring this up today because I am fed up of being fobbed off. I am asking for a solution.

When I submitted this matter I got three calls from the health board which I had not received before but I was here in the House and could not take them.

An Cathaoirleach

The Senator will get six tomorrow, then.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Helen McEntee)

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. I say at the outset, and I am sure the Senator feels the same as a public representative, that we sometimes find it difficult to get back to people within the right timeframe. However, what the Senator has outlined and the various different events she described are not good enough. As public representatives, we do our best to get back to people. We expect that people we are working with will come back to us in a timely manner.

I thank the Senator for bringing this matter to my attention. I apologise on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Simon Harris. Neither I nor the director general of the Health Service Executive were aware of any particular problems in this area. At the outset, I want to say that I speak not just for the Minister, Deputy Harris, but for all of our colleagues at the Department of Health and the director general of the HSE, and that we take our responsibilities relating to the democratic process and to Members of the Oireachtas very seriously.

The Department of Health processes approximately 8,000 Parliamentary Questions each year. As a significant number of the questions relate to service matters or are individual queries, the questions are referred to the HSE to provide direct replies to the Deputies or Senators concerned. To ensure that Members of the Oireachtas receive as effective a service as possible the HSE has a dedicated parliamentary affairs division, PAD. This is a national office and is responsible for all communication between the Houses of the Oireachtas, Department of Health and the HSE. The head of the PAD reports directly to the director general. To assist members of the Oireachtas in contacting the HSE, the PAD has a dedicated email address for Members, which I am sure the Senator knows. It is [e-mail]. In March of this year, the PAD circulated an information booklet to all members of the Dáil and Seanad that included contact information for all hospital groups and community health organisations, CHO, but perhaps we might discuss that with the Senator later if that has not been any help to her.

The PAD also makes every effort to facilitate members of the Oireachtas in obtaining information outside the parliamentary process. For example, in the 12 months to May 2017, there were 28,000 email or phone engagements between Deputies and the primary care reimbursement service, PCRS, on national medical card matters. The PCRS has briefed Members of the Oireachtas on several occasions as to how it can cater to requests for information outside the parliamentary system. In addition, there are numerous engagements at CHO, hospital group, constituency and regional forum level. In September 2016, the director general wrote to all national directors, hospital group CEOs and chief officers of community health organisations, asking them to examine how they interact with Oireachtas members and local representatives outside of the parliamentary process, and to look at how current arrangements could be enhanced or improved.

On the particular issue that the Senator has raised, I understand that the head of the parliamentary affairs division has spoken to the Senator and has agreed to meet with her to resolve any difficulties she or any other Members on the Oireachtas may have in contacting local HSE officials. I would consider this to be the most appropriate course of action in the first instance and I would be confident that such a meeting will address any concerns the Senator has. If, following that meeting, and in the coming weeks and months, the Senator feels that she is not getting responses and is not getting the level of contact that she needs, I ask that she would come directly back to me or to the Minister, and we will try to address it.

An Cathaoirleach

That is a good offer, Senator.

Senator Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

I thank the Minister of State. I ask that she go back to the Minister and ask for some kind of structure such that the health board would meet with Deputies and Senators, even if only three times a year, and for there to be numbers that we can get and which are relevant. I understand that everyone is busy. That 82-year old lady was waiting for weeks due to issues relating to private health insurance. I cannot get back to her with news on whether her shoulder has been sorted. Communication and response are crucial here. If nothing else, I ask that the Carlow-Kilkenny section of the HSE come back with replies and meet with us. That is all I ask.

An Cathaoirleach

The Minister of State has given a commitment and I think she will honour that.

Deputy Helen McEntee

It is my understanding that there are details available, but if they are not being followed up on then I will take those suggestions and bring them back.

An Cathaoirleach

When I was a Deputy, one time, the HSE briefed all Oireachtas Members from Cork every two months. There was a special briefing. Maybe that was done away with.

Senator Jennifer Murnane O'Connor

That is what we need to go back to.

An Cathaoirleach

We did not always get the answers. I thank the Minister of State.

Family Reunification Policy

Senator Colette Kelleher

I welcome the Minister of State to the House. She covers many bases much of the time. I know this is not in her Department's specific remit, but it is good to have her here. I ask if she would be able to endorse the goals of the safe passage campaign and introduce a humanitarian admission programme supported by a community sponsorship scheme, to create a new safe and legal migration route for people fleeing conflict who have a family member living in Ireland already.

As the Minister of State knows, we are currently experiencing the largest global humanitarian crisis since the Second World War. Ireland has stepped up to the mark time and time again to help solve global issues in any way we can. People around the country were very proud in 2015 when we promised to welcome 4,000 refugees and asylum seekers by September 2017. So far, we have only accepted 1,238 of the promised 4,000, and I and many others are very disappointed that we are likely to miss the promised target for September of 4,000 people coming into our country. We know that many people already legally resident in Ireland are desperately seeking to bring family members out of conflict zones and have the resources to do so.

The safe passage campaign is a scheme proposed and developed by a very fine NGO called Nasc, based in Cork. It would go some way to help us regain some of the last ground. The Nasc scheme would introduce a humanitarian admissions programme for Irish citizens, beneficiaries of international protection and legal residents to apply for family reunification for extended family members fleeing conflict zones, similar to the Syrian humanitarian admission programme, SHAP, introduced for a limited time in 2014. The scheme would also allow members of society to co-sponsor family reunification applications. This can be a citizen, community group, faith-based groups, charity, business or university. The co-sponsor would provide financial, social and institutional backing and thus improve a person's opportunities for integration, easing the financial burden on the host family in Ireland and on Government. The Nasc chief executive, Ms Fiona Finn, said the proposed safe passage scheme would allow people to bypass the terrible use of traffickers and smugglers that particularly affects children coming into the country and the reliance on dangerous boat crossings, providing a safe and legal channel for Syrians to join their loved ones here in Ireland.

The scheme would help people like Mr. Amjad Shaaban. Amjad left Syria in 2005, became an EU citizen, and in 2011, he moved to Cork. Earlier this year, Amjad applied for his father and brothers to join him here. Three days after he discovered his application had been refused, his father died of a stroke. His appeal for his brothers to join him was also refused.

Amjad said:

My two brothers are older, they’re single and don’t have families. I’m capable of hosting them, I have a decent salary plus I own a flat in Cork. I’m contributing to this society and all I ask for in return is a safe place for my brothers. Just consider that we are human beings. Imagine if this happened to your own family. I’ve lost my mother and my father. I only have two brothers, I don’t have anyone else.

Why can we not let Amjad welcome his brothers to Cork?

There would be a number of benefits to the proposed scheme. It is a pragmatic, cost-effective and an efficient solution that would ensure the safety of those who flee conflict, while also promoting integration and the reuniting of families. Schemes such as this lead to faster, safer and more positive integration opportunities and outcomes. If developed, Ireland will be a leader in promoting humanitarian initiatives to manage the resettlement and relocation crisis in Europe.

There are significant international precedents for introducing such a scheme. The proposal is modelled on humanitarian admission programmes and private sponsorship schemes which are working very well in countries such as Canada, Germany and, most recently, the United Kingdom. The proposal was developed in consultation with members of communities which had been impacted on and has the support of the Irish UNHCR office, as well as official endorsement by ActionAid, Barnardos, the Crosscare Migrant Project, the Immigrant Council of Ireland, Doras Luimni and ADT Ireland.

I call on the Minister of State to listen to the chorus of people calling on us to do more. Will she endorse the safe passage proposal? Will she make it easier for families fleeing conflict to be reunited? Will she ensure we will do more in order that we can come close to meeting our target of welcoming and giving refuge to 4,000 desperate people?

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I thank the Senator for her proposal. I will read the prepared statement from the Minister's office and then reflect on some of the issues raised by the Senator.

I thank the Senator for raising this important issue and creating a further opportunity for us to discuss Ireland's ongoing response to people and their families in need of international protection. The House will recall that in order to reflect the proper response of the people of Ireland to the needs of those fleeing conflict zones, we have responded in a number of strategically important ways to offer our assistance to those most in need. Ireland is one of the few EU countries that has maintained a naval service vessel in the Mediterranean since the beginning of the crisis in order to save lives. We are sending a further vessel this week.

We have committed to guaranteeing funds for food aid for Syrian families under a three-year rolling programme instead of on an annual basis to allow for greater certainty of funding for the World Food Programme. Ireland introduced a Syrian humanitarian admissions programme in 2014 and we continue to facilitate legal migration in a variety of ways through our regular immigration processes, including taking into account humanitarian needs, as appropriate.

We voluntarily opted into the EU relocation programme set up to assist Italy and Greece to respond to the needs of 160,000 people arriving in those countries in need of protection. We have offered protection to up to 4,000 people under the Irish refugee protection programme, IRPP. In meeting our response to this pledge the Tánaiste has doubled our commitment to resettle 520 people by 2017 to 1,040 by the end of this year. We have redoubled our efforts to process approximately 100 people per month from those available and registered in Greece under the relocation programme. We continue to work with all concerned to resolve issues to enable relocation to commence from Italy.

To provide the best possible services on arrival in the State, we recently opened our third emergency reception and orientation centre in Ballaghaderreen, alongside Clonea Strand, and in Monasterevin under the Irish refugee protection programme. Under the Irish refugee protection programme, all offers from the community are welcomed and have been assessed and processed by the Irish Red Cross. Both the Tánaiste and I commend the generosity and willingness of people to assist us in integrating those in need of protection.

The Government also agreed, following an all-party Dáil motion, to offer protection to unaccompanied minors previously living in the Calais camps who wished to come to Ireland. The Tánaiste is pleased to state every young person who has been identified to date, in consultation with the French authorities, as wanting to come to Ireland has either arrived here or is in the process of doing so. The rights being offered to those under the resettlement and relocation programme or the minors from Calais are significantly superior to those under the previous humanitarian admissions programme. The Government is fully committed to vindicating this higher standard of rights.

The Tánaiste greatly appreciates the spirit behind this discussion and would welcome specific practical proposals from the non-governmental organisation, NGO, sector that would help to progress the Irish refugee protection programme. Despite the merits of the proposal, however, adding further new programmes, while working flat out to fulfil our existing targets, would not be useful or helpful at this time, particularly when there is sufficient capacity still to be filled under the existing programmes. The creation of additional schemes would only lead to a dilution of resources and be counterproductive. Offering protection to people fleeing conflict under the Irish refugee protection programme is the priority. The Tánaiste believes that, by September this year, our efforts will not only have made a difference to a significant number of vulnerable people but will stand up well to scrutiny when compared to those of other countries across Europe. We remain fully committed to reaching the targets agreed under the Irish refugee protection programme.

Senator Colette Kelleher

I thank the Minister of State for being here on behalf of the Tánaiste. I welcome the reference in her response to the Syrian humanitarian admissions programme in 2014. The safe passage proposal is modelled on it and asks us to reconsider it in the light of the ever-increasing numbers of desperate people fleeing conflict. It is a practical and sensible proposal which is based on family members living in this country or other citizens who familes have grown up who have spare capacity and spare rooms. People like us are willing to extend the hand of friendship. Rather than diluting existing schemes, as referred to in the proposal, it is adding something, including from family members of persons who are fleeing war. I ask the Minister of State to extend to the Tánaiste, and her officials, an invitation to attend a briefing I am organising on 13 June and follow up on the NASC proposal that will be outlined.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I again thank the Senator. I will not read the other part of the response because it follows on from what has been said. I will raise the Senator's concerns with the Tánaiste. Nobody in this Chamber cannot but be moved by the pictures he or she has seen on television of men, women and children, including the very old, fleeing their homes across the world. It is an awful predicament to be in when one has to leave one's country because of conflict. However, Ireland has done very well in facilitating many people who have come here during the years. The programme in place extends a further opportunity to facilitate them. I understand the Senator's concerns. I hear them in my clinic from people who have been here a long time and want to bring family members here. It is difficult to obtain visas for them. I will raise the Senator's concerns with the Tánaiste and bring the model of the safe passage scheme to her attention in the coming days. I will also mention the briefing to be given on 13 June.

An Cathaoirleach

I thank the Minister of State and the Senator.

Post Office Closures

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

Tá céad fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. Taim buíoch gur tháinig sí isteach. I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House to take this matter. I appreciate that it is not her area of responsibility, but it is an important question for those of us who are living in rural areas. I hope I will not receive the standard answer to the effect that this is within the remit of An Post and that the Minister has nothing to do with it.

The question is about the protocols agreed between An Post and the Department of Communications, Climate Action and Environment for the temporary closure of post offices on foot of audit findings. The post office in Carnagh, County Galway, has been closed for a number of weeks. We understand an auditor was sent to it. A number of other auditors appeared on the scene the following day and the post office was closed down. People living in the local community were not given an explanation for what had happened. We are being told it is a contractual issue between the postmistress and An Post, which I can appreciate and it is not an issue.

On Monday evening a very large public meeting was held to discuss the issue. We are hearing in the locality that what An Post originally thought was the problem had been exaggerated.

It subsequently found out that the issue was not half as serious as it thought, but the post office has remained closed and the audit procedure is ongoing.

I have worked in a partnership company which received funding from Pobal. Anybody who has worked with a company or organisation in receipt of State funding knows that an audit is a regular part of the day-to-day work. One expects audits once every couple of years. When an auditor is coming, organisations get all of the relevant paperwork together. However, inevitably auditors are there to outline what needs to be improved and organisations always receive audit reports that state something is wrong and improvements need to be made.

The question then is how serious are the issues that are being raised. If an audit shows gross negligence or anything like that, one would imagine that an organisation would be closed down. I do not believe that has been proven in this case, but I remain open to clarification. Where there is something like gross negligence, one can imagine a service being closed down. The general procedure is that work goes on while the audit procedure is taking place and the issues that are raised are rectified.

This is an issue because the process has closed down a post office in a rural area and people now have to make a 20 mile round trip to a neighbouring post office. Many of those affected by the closure are elderly and do not have transport. There is no public transport to the other service. People have been severely discommoded. The issue involves rural living and the vital role played by the post office service. That is why I want to know the protocol that has been laid down between the Minister and An Post.

Does An Post have to notify the Department that it is going to close a post office? When an audit is carried out, are different levels of misdemeanours, if we can call them, that identified? If a post office goes over a certain threshold, is it then deemed appropriate to close it? Are those criteria laid down? Can we see them? Can the Minister see a role for himself in this and can he engage with An Post on this issue?

We have no indication from An Post when the post office will reopen. I am happy to say that it has indicated it does not intend to close the post office in the long term, but people are quite sceptical because we have heard the same about other services. Post offices in other areas have closed. We want the issue to be rectified, the audit is completed, the issues addressed and the post office service reinstated as quickly as possible. I look forward to the response from the Minister of State.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten. The response may not be what the Senator wants to hear. I will read the written response and I have taken a lot of notes. I will come back to the Senator.

The Minister, Deputy Naughten, has responsibility for the postal sector, including the governance of An Post, to ensure that the company is fully compliant with the code of practice for the governance of State bodies and the governance functions included in the statutory framework underpinning An Post. Day-to-day operational matters, including decisions on the closure of post offices, are matters for the board and the management of the company and not ones in which the Minister, Deputy Naughten, has any role or statutory function. Therefore, there is no protocol in place between An Post and the Department governing such matters, which also includes the temporary closure of post offices.

The Minister, Deputy Naughten, has, however, made inquires with An Post regarding the mailer referred to by the Senator. I have been informed that An Post has advised that the post office in Carna, Galway, was temporarily closed on 3 May due to circumstances beyond its control. While An Post regrets any inconvenience to customers, it is understood that the company is working to restore services at Carna as soon as possible but has indicated that this may take some time. In the interim, the company has indicated that Department of Social Protection customer payments have been transferred to Kilkerrin Post Office. Other services are being provided by other nearby post offices.

I trust that Senator Ó Clochartaigh will appreciate that it would not be appropriate to comment further on any operational matters relating to a specific post office under the remit of An Post. Finally, as far as the operational activities of the company are concerned, I am assured that the board and management of An Post are constantly working to ensure that the services the company provides are developed and delivered to meet the needs of its customers.

An Cathaoirleach

I mean no disrespect to the Minister of State, but at a meeting of the Committee on Procedure and Privileges yesterday an issue was raised that is becoming more and more frequent, namely that a line Minister does not come in here and does not satisfy the Senator who is raising a Commencement Matter or is putting a Minister who is not a line Minister on the spot. Something will have to be done about this.

It is sometimes acceptable if a Minister is tied up, but more often than not it is now the case that a line Minister does not come to the House. I am not sure what we are going to do about that but some action will have to be taken. I ask the Minister of State to convey that message to others because I can see a day where we will close down on this issue until such time as some respect is shown for the House, in particular to Senators who raise matters. I will allow the Senator half a minute.

Senator Trevor Ó Clochartaigh

I concur with the Cathaoirleach. The line I take issue with is not from the Minister of State; rather, it is from An Post which stated that the post office was closed due to circumstances beyond its control. I do not believe it was. It made a decision to close the post office. What was the threshold on which the decision was based? Was there a minor or major discrepancy? A post office should not be closed on a whim. It is a vital public service.

We would not close the Houses of the Oireachtas, hospital or medical centre unless something very serious had happened. That may be the case here. I have been told it is not, and I remain to be corrected. I ask the Minister of State to ask the Minister whether he can put in place a protocol that would show that An Post can only close a post office when certain very serious thresholds have been reached, and under no circumstances should they be closed before then, that an audit process should be undertaken and matters should be rectified. The closure of a post office should be a last resort.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I note what the Cathaoirleach has said. Due to other business, sometimes Minister are not available. When I take a Commencement Matter, I always go back to the Minister and explain the situation.

An Cathaoirleach

I am just making a point. I am in no way blaming the Minister of State.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I know that. I do not take any offence.

An Cathaoirleach

The previous Seanad had matters on the Adjournment, which was changed by the then Cathaoirleach and Leader to facilitate Ministers because they felt that, given that we did know when business would finish on a Thursday, Ministers may have gone elsewhere. A morning session was introduced to try to enable Ministers to be here. For example, the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Richard Bruton, is regularly here. When the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Shane Ross, cannot be here he lets people know so that a matter can be withdrawn. It seems as if the Minister of State, Deputy Byrne, is being rolled out day in and day out as a punishment.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I do not know about that. I do not feel coming in here is a punishment. The Senator has raised an issue that is close to my heart. In my area a post office closed recently at short notice, due to a postmaster retiring. Unfortunately, local people, in a similar matter to those to whom the Senator referred, had to change post office. That can be very upsetting for older people, in particular, when they have to travel to another post office. There is an added difficulty when the next post office is a long distance away, which is not the case in the capital city. I take that into account.

I will relay the concerns expressed by the Senator to the Minister. It is somewhat unknown for me to agree with many things, but I agree with the Senator that it is very bad when An Post cannot relay, through the Office of the Minister, why a post office is closing. It is a real difficulty across the country. I am not in the camp of the Minister, Deputy Naughten, but I am privileged to represent him here today.

Sitting suspended at 11.10 a.m. and resumed at 11.30 a.m.