The Order of Business is No. 1, Representative Actions for the Protection of the Collective Interests of Consumers Bill 2023 – Second Stage, to be taken at 12.15 p.m. and with the opening contribution of the Minister not to exceed ten minutes, the contributions of group spokespersons not to exceed eight minutes and those of all other Senators not to exceed five minutes, with the Minister to be given no less than ten minutes in which to reply.
An tOrd Gnó - Order of Business
I support the Order of Business as outlined by the Leader. There are several issues that I wish to raise. The disability matters committee has had really good engagement on deafness and hearing loss. Hearing loss has often been referred to as an invisible disability, not just because of the lack of visible symptoms but because it has been really stigmatised. There is invisibility in policymaking and I could honestly say the issue is ignored by policymakers. There does not appear to be a strategy or plan for hearing care, either in the health system or the education system. I am appealing for proper research and data on this because unfortunately there is none. Some 80% to 90% of children with hearing loss go to mainstream schools but there are absolutely no data showing how they are getting on or how they are supported. We absolutely must provide the data.
The Minister for Education, Deputy Foley, said primary schools will have the opportunity to teach a second language. There is no reason that could not be sign language. I know of a community that has done this extremely well. Maggie Owens, who is deaf, teaches in Cabra and lives in Athy, has developed a wonderful community called Athy Sing & Sign. Young people in the community have formed their own signing choir and do events. In fact, they were in Leinster House last year. There should be more of this in the Parliament.
I also want to raise the issue of septic tanks. I note that 63% of septic tanks failed inspections last year in my county, County Kildare, according to the EPA. That has to be a concern for all of us because we all have to play our part in protecting our local environment. There is a good grant scheme to assist householders in carrying out works to rectify defective septic tanks. This is administered by our local authorities; 85% of costs are eligible for recoupment, and eligibility is not means-tested. The scheme is undergoing a full review. If people have concerns about it, now is the time to make them known. It is really important that everybody gets involved.
The final issue I want to raise is based on an article I read recently that states seven people have died over the past 18 months having had plastic surgery or dental surgery carried out abroad. The most recent case involved a man who had dental surgery in Turkey. This is of great concern. We need more awareness because many of the systems abroad are unregulated and have unregistered practitioners. There are obviously some very good systems but the Department of Health absolutely needs to roll out an awareness campaign.
On that topic, I heard Professor Donal O'Shea state on the radio the other morning that somebody who went abroad had an operation carried out in a warehouse. I thank the Senator for raising the matter.
I want to raise just two points on the Order of Business. Let me follow on from the comments on the septic tank grant scheme. I have a Commencement matter submitted on this issue for next Tuesday that I hope the Cathaoirleach will look upon favourably because there is an anomaly. One had to register a septic tank by 1 February 2013 and there was a legal obligation to do so. It is a requirement to access the grant. If in 2017, 2018 or 2019 people purchased a property that was not registered at the relevant time, they are ineligible for the grant, which is not their fault. I hope this will be dealt with in a Commencement debate next Tuesday.
The other matter I want to talk about is cost-rental housing and its roll-out. We are eagerly awaiting the detail of this subsidy or equity scheme the Minister will roll out to enable the private sector to get involved. I hope the details will be available before the summer recess to provide clarity to the sector. In my area, Waterford, we had really positive news that 98 cost-rental homes have been approved by the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. I had the pleasure of working with all the stakeholders on the project: Circle Voluntary Housing Association, Waterford City & County Council, Frisby Homes, the Housing Agency and the Department. Approval has now been given to proceed with 98 cost-rental homes in Waterford. These are the very first cost-rental homes provided at a cost at least 25% below the market rent. Given the constrained nature of the market in Waterford, this is a very welcome intervention by the Government in the housing sector. It comes on the back of more than 100 affordable-purchase homes becoming available in Waterford city. We need to see the continued roll-out of such schemes. We now have the first-home scheme, the local authority affordable-purchase scheme and the cost-rental scheme delivering housing in Waterford, alongside social housing, which the approved housing bodies and Waterford City & County Council is progressing. The Land Development Agency is actively considering bigger projects in the context of the North Quays development. Therefore, there are many positive developments on the housing front, but particularly on the rental side. In that context, it is important to consider the tax treatment of residential landlords in the budget. We have seen that a large number have left the market and we need to put measures in place that will retain and attract new landlords.
I now call on Senator Mullen. I thank Senator Keoghan for accommodating his next move. I will give Senator Keoghan latitude in her contribution because, in fairness to her, she was to be the first speaker.
I also thank Senator Keoghan and, indeed, the Seanad Office for guiding us through the necessary formalities on this. I propose an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 15 be taken before No. 1 today." This relates to my Bill, the Broadcasting (Restriction of Salaries) Bill 2023, which I hope will be debated in the Seanad next week.
We are all aware of the crisis that has broken out at RTÉ. It is a crisis of transparency and accountability. We do not know the full details yet but there is major public concern about the possibility that arrangements were made to deal with certain people's salaries in a manner designed to deceive the public as to their true nature. To quote an infamous phrase from the politics of Britain and Ireland, that is "an appalling vista". However, there has been concern for a long time over the issue of salaries in the public service broadcaster. The reason, notwithstanding the commercial dimension of RTÉ's activities, is that once you are talking about the significant amount of public funding that comes from the television licence, you are dealing with the reality that money is fungible and that any salaries, howsoever constructed or sourced through private contractual arrangements or contracts of service, are therefore ultimately about the use of public funding.
There are market realities as to whether it is really the case that major salaries have to be paid to secure the services of certain people and whether those services are essential. There is the reality that being in a prominent role in a public service broadcaster contributes to significant earning potential outside of the broadcaster by way of private engagement.
The Bill, which we will have a chance to discuss next week, seeks to limit any salaries, howsoever constructed through contract or otherwise, so that remuneration does not exceed that of the Minister, taking into account public service benefits. It will require the publication of any salaries that are equivalent to those of a Dáil Deputy. It will also provide that it is an offence to breach those caps and that it will be an offence, with serious penalties, to cause the public to be deceived in any way as to salary levels. There are other provisions also. It would be a contractual requirement that those employed would not disclose their personal views on matters of public controversy. It would also require RTÉ to set out the sanctions to apply where breaches of the codes are found by the compliance committee. I hope it will get a good debate in the Seanad next week. I hope there will be support on all sides of the House for it.
Ba mhaith liom ábhar amháin a lua. I want to raise a positive issue today. I congratulate Kilmainham Gaol on the illustrious accolade it has received as the No. 1 tourist destination in the State on TripAdvisor. It was also voted as one of the top tourist destinations in the world. We all know the important history of Kilmainham Gaol, not only in terms of the history it preserves and the stories it tells but also its own inspiring journey of its reclamation by volunteers who would not allow it to fall any further into disarray and who ensured its preservation for future generations. It was often cited in this Chamber by our esteemed friend, former Senator Máire Devine, who sat on the board of Kilmainham Gaol and whose family was one of those who took ownership of it to preserve it for the Irish people. I am sure we all have very happy memories of visiting Kilmainham Gaol over the years. One of its great strengths is that it is not just an interpretive centre. As much as I love going to many types of exhibits and exhibitions around the world, at Kilmainham Gaol there are informed, enthusiastic and passionate tour guides who bring the history and story to life. They are the real winners, for want of a better term, of the commendation that Kilmainham Gaol has received. I am sure all of us can agree to send our congratulations. Perhaps the Cathaoirleach will consider writing to the board on behalf of the Seanad to commend it on this fantastic achievement. Nár lagaí Dia a lámha; long may they continue in the story they are telling and the work they are doing and continue to advance and grow going forward.
I compliment what my colleagues, Senators O'Loughlin and Cummins, said on septic tanks. Senator Cummins is right in what he said about the registration of septic tanks. In 2013 there was a fear among households about registering their septic tanks. They feared it would lead to a levy down the road and the unknown. I do not think we have communicated the message properly. There needs to be another take at registering. If people are not registered they cannot get a grant. I have not looked at the percentages but I know a very high percentage of people have not registered septic tanks. We need another look at it from this perspective.
I want to raise the issue of policing and the new structures being put in place. I thank the Cathaoirleach for allowing me to raise a Commencement matter this morning. It is important that the Minister comes to the House to have a discussion on policing. Under the current proposals, certain parts of the country will have a three-county model and this will lead to a downgrading of the policing services in those counties. I know there is a review of counties in the west and midlands, including Roscommon, Longford and Mayo. We in Donegal, along with Sligo and Leitrim, are in a similar situation. The size of my home county of Donegal is very similar to that of Mayo and it has a long coastline. We have very little attachment to the Twenty-six Counties. We have only 4 km of Border attaching us to the South and 100 km of Border with Northern Ireland. This affects policing matters and the moving of drugs and, moreover, the tourist season. The west, which is a large geographical area, is losing the great service we have had over many years and it is of great concern. It would be timely to have the Minister to come to the House to discuss it.
I wish to register my sympathies to Senator Dolan on the death of her father and give our condolences to her family.
I echo the congratulations to Kilmainham Gaol. It is another reason I am loud and proud of being a resident and lover of the constituency of Dublin South-Central. It is fantastic. Everything the Office of Public Works, OPW, has done in opening up the space and working with Dublin City Council, and its proximity to the Royal Hospital in Kilmainham, is just fantastic, as is the history of the area and the manner in which the guides share the history of the gaol with anybody going into it. For Pride month, it had a special exhibition and talk. It is pertinent and relevant and moves all the time. The guides pull out the rich history of Kilmainham Gaol. I echo the congratulations that should be expressed on behalf of us all.
I want to reflect on Mary Farrell's presentation yesterday in the audiovisual room on behalf of the campaign group Justice for Wards. She explained that the money, assets, estates and major awards which in many cases amount to millions, are held by the Courts Service prior to the Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act coming into force. They are held and administered by the Courts Service, and have been since, at the very least, the 1960s when oversight was first questioned in the Oireachtas. These moneys have been depleted significantly in the course of investments. The Assisted Decision-Making (Capacity) Act is making changes and moneys are being restored to the wards themselves to administer. The fact is that there is a big gap in many of the funds of individual wards. Ms Farrell is highlighting this and calling for an inquiry, as I am myself. The Deputy Leader was in the audiovisual room for the presentation yesterday and was very helpful in many of the comments she made. I have sent an email to all Members of both Houses to highlight what is going on in order that we get support to ensure an inquiry can happen and that we can get audit of what is there and make sure the services of the State step in, while also looking after what has happened to those funds and how we increase them.
Next is Senator Keogan and I will give her latitude given that she facilitated Senator Mullen.
I thank the Cathaoirleach. I second the proposal to amend the Order of Business. What Senator Mullen proposes to do in the House next week is far more important than what has been going on in the two committee meetings that have been taking place yesterday and today.
I call for a debate with the Minister for Justice on the use of body cameras and facial recognition technology. The Government's handling of this will be extremely costly and will result in serious issues relating to data protection and the protection of civil liberties. The press release issued by the Department of Justice states the Garda Commissioner will begin tendering for the purchase of body cameras. This is putting the cart before the horse. We will spend a sizeable amount of money on technology that we may not be able to use for a very long period of time.
By the time gardaí will be able to use the bodycams, the technology could be outdated. If we purchase bodycams now, we might later find out they are incompatible with our legislation.
According to the National Institute of Standards and Technology, facial recognition technology is accurate only 70% of the time and is often worse at identifying women and members of minority groups. In the US, the American Civil Liberties Union is taking cases for people who are wrongly identified. You cannot call yourself anti-racist, progressive and liberal while at the same time enacting legislation that is anything but.
I have talked to people in the Data Protection Commission who are very concerned about the compliance perspective. The press release states that the Garda will make use only of images it is entitled to use, but the AI is trained on multiple samples. If this collects data that the Minister says will not be used, what is to stop someone else from using those data accidentally or for a more nefarious end in the future? Whenever it is pointed out to the Minister for Justice that something could be open to abuse, she has a stock response along the lines that this is not about racial profiling or mass surveillance but about helping gardaí to do their jobs. That statement appeared in the Irish Independent. If the wording of her upcoming Bill does not do what she says it is intended to do, she will need to change it. I do not think the Minister understands the consequences of the legislation she is trying to pass. At the very least, the upcoming Bill should be subject to pre-legislative scrutiny.
Is this good public procurement practice? What evidence gathered by this technology puts people at risk of unlawful arrest? Gardaí risk gathering inadmissible evidence. We also risk having the data being used for unlawful purposes. May we please have a debate on this in the hope of preventing further embarrassing legislation being brought to this House?
I add my congratulations to Kilmainham Gaol. I echo that there are incredible workers in the OPW. Many of the tour guides - I have raised this in this House before - are on contracts that prevent them from progressing beyond a certain grade. That causes them to leave because no matter how experienced or qualified they are, they cannot progress beyond that point. There are incredible people who work in the OPW.
This morning during a Commencement matter I raised concerns that senior management in the OPW break the law and have broken the law. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, said that if I had evidence of that, I should bring it to him. He knows I have repeatedly raised the matter through parliamentary questions and in this House. I will now put the proof on the record. I had to go to the Office of the Information Commissioner to get it. I was put through the hoops but I want to confirm that on 16 November 2020 a report was carried out by a ranger in the National Parks and Wildlife Service. That report stated:
In conclusion:
In light of the evidence that unfolded during my investigation, I recommend that the Office of Public Works is prosecuted under Regulations 51 (2)(b); and 51 2 (d) of the European Communities (Birds & Natural Habitats) Regulations ... for disturbing the breeding and resting place of bats in Emo Court House without a bat derogation license. Furthermore, I recommend that the Office of Public Works is also prosecuted under Regulation 65 of the said EU Regulations namely: incites, directs, procures, permits or assists another person to carry out an action that is an offence under these Regulations shall also be guilty of an offence.
The Minister of State is aware of this. I will post this to him to let him know. I want it on the record of this House that I do not come in here and make accusations without having my facts in place. The Minister of State is well aware of the fact that the OPW was recommended for prosecution, including in a second case in Barryscourt, where it also carried out works without the necessary licence.
Well said.
I pass on my sympathies to the family of Senator Aisling Dolan on the passing of her dad. May he rest in peace.
I rise today to highlight the use of cash. A report by the Banking & Payments Federation Ireland recently highlighted that there has been an increase of 18% in contactless payments. There are over 3 million card payments a day. The report does not mention the use of cash. I have been contacted by many older people who still like to use cash. They cannot get used to using cards. Recently, on two separate occasions, I went to where there used to be seven different ATMs all around Limerick. They are gone. They are actually closed down. There is EU regulation and a rule coming through the European Parliament. It is to be passed by the end of June. It will make sure that cash will be kept as part of our legal tender. This rule could mean that pharmacies and small businesses would have to accept cash. That is very positive because so many older people are used to using cash but this rule would mean that we here in Ireland would have to adapt to it. As part of the regulation, ATMs would be protected and kept. However, the banks are getting rid of their ATMs before this rule is implemented, which is affecting rural Ireland especially. In many cities we still have the odd ATM but in many rural villages and towns and on the peripheries of the cities ATMs are disappearing. It is something that needs to be raised with the Minister for Finance, and I would like the Deputy Leader's support in that regard.
I join others in expressing our sympathy on the sad passing of Senator Dolan's father.
On Tuesday of last week a member of NATO and of the Council of Europe carried out a targeted assassination of local political leaders in a neighbouring state as they were carrying out their public duties. The murderer was Türkiye, the people killed were in the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, and the world took no notice. You would not have read about it anywhere. The United States issued one of their usual statements urging all parties to de-escalate, as though there was some equivalence between being a council leader and murdering one. When Türkiye breaches international mores, no one wants to know, especially if the victims hold few cards in the world of realpolitik. What I found truly shocking was that last week's attack brought to 48 the number of people in north and east Syria murdered by Turkish drones since the beginning of this year, and a further 38 have been wounded. Thirteen of those killed were civilians. The rest were soldiers who had defended their land and the world against ISIS. None was a threat to Türkiye. Civilian leaders have been specifically targeted. The drone attack last week hit a car carrying two female leaders of a local council of Qamişlo canton. Those are the women who were murdered last week.
I raise the issue because we need a debate on Türkiye for a whole host of reasons. The abuse of human rights and the calculated murder regime there in respect of the Kurdish people should not be acceptable to any of us. I know, a Chathaoirligh, that you have a good tradition of inviting ambassadors in during their national days, and I think it is something we all welcome, but I would strongly object to inviting Türkiye in for a whole host of reasons that I will not have time to go into. Suffice it to say there is something very wrong in the world when we see 38 people murdered and hear not a word about it. This is a state that claims to believe in human rights. I met representatives of the state last week on the Council of Europe. There is something desperately wrong going on, we need to draw attention to it, and I think we could do so via a debate in this Chamber.
On behalf of myself and all of us, I extend our sympathies to the family of the late Mr. Anthony Dolan of Ballinasloe, father of our colleague and friend, Aisling. To Mrs. Teresa Dolan and to Brian, Darragh and David we send our sympathies.
I now call on the Deputy Leader to reply to the debate on the Order of Business.
I extend my sympathies as well to Aisling and her family on the very sad passing of her daddy.
As to what Senator Gavan brought up this morning, he is right: I definitely do not know anything about it, and maybe most other people in this Chamber do not know anything about it. That is not good enough, so I will ask not only for the debate but also for a statement from the Minister for Foreign Affairs to see what the reaction is.
I thank the Deputy Leader.
I am always honest with the Senator when he brings things up here. I know very little about the conflict between Türkiye and Syria, other than that there are 3.5 million refugees from Syria in Türkiye. It just does not make any sense. I will get the Senator the statement and will certainly ask for the debate, although maybe not between now and the end of next week. That is no problem. I thank the Senator for raising that.
Senator Maria Byrne brought up the kind of sneaky campaign that has gone on subliminally or under the radar by our banks and probably much of society, particularly retail as well, to get rid of cash. It is sad that most of us have young people in our lives who would not even dream of having a fiver in their pocket. My daughter works in a restaurant and when she comes home with her tips, she gives them to me and I have to Revolut her the money because she does not want cash. It will organically happen as older people, who are the mainstay of those using cash, move on in their lives. I do not know what the rush is but we have to protect it, in the absence of moral behaviour, on behalf of the people who need our retail and banking sector. I thank the Senator for raising that and I will bring it up with the Minister for Finance.
Senators Boylan, Seery Kearney and Ó Donnghaile all rightly and proudly recognised the positive tourist accolade bestowed on Kilmainham Gaol. All of us know what a fantastic facility it is. I used to bring my kids on their communion day. It became a ritual in our house to go on communion day. It is a wonderful facility steeped deep in rich history. Senator Ó Donnghaile is right that we have many beautiful buildings with deep history in this country that are not recognised. The passionate guides who work there bring to life the tour when people go around that has impacted so well on our tourists. Long may it last. I continue to wish them well. I will also ask the Leader to send a letter congratulating the board on behalf of all of us as well as the Cathaoirleach.
Senator Boylan raised something very serious and I will bring it up with the Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW. I ask her, based on the report she has, who would be responsible for pressing those charges that the drafter of the report suggested?
The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, as it is the National Parks and Wildlife Service.
Okay. I will bring it to his attention and come back to the Senator with a response. I thank her for raising that.
Senator Keogan asked for a debate on the proposed use of body cams and the purchase of same by An Garda Síochána when the legislation has not even been drafted yet. I will see if I can get a response for her to see if we can do that.
Senator Seery Kearney spoke about what I can only describe as an absolutely astonishing reveal yesterday by, for anybody who was not in the audiovisual room, the Justice for Wards presentation that we were given by a lovely lady called Mary Farrell and her colleague, Joe. It was absolutely astonishing. This business – this game – that we are all in never ceases to amaze me. Things absolutely rock you that you just cannot believe could be true, and then they are. For what it is worth, if people do not know, could they please have a look at the Justice for Wards campaign? Some €2 billion of wards’ money is being managed by the Courts Service. The risk profile of the investments that it made over the years is absolutely astounding. There are losses of hundreds of millions of euro. On behalf of young people like the young man who Joe spoke about yesterday, his grandson, who was only six years old when he had a near-fatal accident that resulted in horrific injuries and needs for him for the rest of his life, the mismanagement of that poor boy’s fund is nothing short of scandalous. Yet, nobody seems to bear responsibility for it. The Courts Service does not want to have anything to do with it nor does the High Court president. It is astonishing. If anybody could lend any help to that campaign, it would be appreciated and worthwhile to try to get to the bottom of it.
Senators Blaney, Cummins and O’Loughlin all raised the issue of septic tanks. A report yesterday was shocking insofar as how many failed the tests but also how many are not on the register. It would be worthwhile if the Minister took the request seriously to allow people to re-register, particularly those who purchased their houses after 2013. Let us have a look at that.
Senator Blaney also looked for a debate on the new policing structures, particularly the three county models that, effectively, in his opinion, will downgrade services to many of our counties on the west coast.
Senator Mullen asked me to allow him to introduce No. 15 this morning and it is no problem to take that today. It is topical and timely. The Senator was very quick off the mark; this is a very speedy response. Well done, as it is something that has to be attacked.
Senator Cummins also spoke about cost rental housing, looking for clarity on changes that will be made to the scheme between now and the summer recess so that we all have them. I will ask for that and come back to him.
Senator O’Loughlin opened today with the meeting of the Joint Committee on Disability Matters this morning and the presentation given on behalf of the deaf community. She highlighted the need for research into the deaf experience, particularly of children in primary and secondary school, so that we can then make policy-informed choices as opposed to what she said is no choices. Not only is deafness an invisible disability, she also claimed that it is invisible in policy decision-making. That is not a good thing, so we will have to change that.
Just before we finish, I would like colleagues to join with me for one minute’s silence please so that we in Seanad Éireann reaffirm our support for Ukraine following the recent bombing of the dam near the town of Nova Kakhovka.
Senator Mullen moved an amendment to the Order of Business: "That No. 15 be taken before No. 1". It was seconded by Senator Keogan. The Deputy Leader indicated she is prepared to accepted the amendment.
Amendment agreed to.
Order of Business, as amended, agreed to.
I ask Members to please rise for the minute's silence.
Members rose.