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Seanad Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Jan 2024

Vol. 298 No. 6

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Schools Building Projects

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit, atá tagtha anseo inniu thar ceann an Aire Oideachais, an Teachta Norma Foley. Tá ceist an-mhór le plé. It is disappointing that the Minister, Deputy Foley, is unavoidably absent but the Minister of State is welcome to the Chamber to give her Department's response.

In 2017, the school community of Mercy Convent Primary School, Naas, learned the exciting news that the Department was proceeding to build a much-needed new school building. A state-of-the-art €9 million building was promised. This was to comprise 32 classrooms, a new staff room and a new assembly hall. One would think this was a dream come true. The works started in 2018 but unfortunately, following a number of building delays, unhappy differences arose between the construction firm and the Department in 2020 and work on the site ceased. The delays continue.

From the outside, the exterior of this new school building looks fantastic. The problem is that the interior works have not been completed. It is a mere shell and requires significant completion. We can be thankful that the building was rendered dry and free from any water ingress in 2021 but there is now an urgent need to implement the finishing contract.

The Department's tender process has finally been done. On 18 January, the Department approved the construction firm it envisages should finish the job. I am given to understand that the next procedural step in this process is for the Department to issue its formal letter of intent, but when?

Morale and resilience in the school is remarkably high. School numbers are thriving. Support for the school from parents is unwavering, but the incredibly patient parents have asked me to urge the Department and to plead with the Department to get the job done once and for all. It is becoming the most expensive school of its size in the history of the State. Millions of euro continue to be spent each year on renting the temporary prefab modular building. It has been speculated that the avoidable losses and the ongoing costs in court to date would have built a number of schools. A further example of the fact that this is haemorrhaging moneys from the Exchequer is the fact that the annual security bill to secure this long-term unoccupied building alone is estimated to run to €350,000 per annum. When work suddenly ceased, many of the windows and doors that were to be fitted were left unprotected and they perished. The costs keep escalating.

Right now, though, the parents do not want to go down the road of a blame game. They simply want to get the job done. A harsh reality of construction is that disputes can sometimes arise and normally the legal contract entered into between the parties deliberately includes an arbitration clause. The main purpose of this is to arrive at a speedy - I emphasise the word “speedy” - resolution without recourse to litigation in the High Court or the Supreme Court. The loyal parents, the dedicated school principal and his heroic staff, the board of management, the taxpayers, the many past pupils, the local community and, especially, the school-going children deserve better. They are entitled to an explanation of this fiasco and to expect a strict timeframe to be put in place to get the job done.

I thank Senator Martin for bringing this important issue to the floor of the Seanad and, indeed, for his detailed overview of the situation as it faces Mercy Convent Primary School in Naas, County Kildare. As the Senator has already alluded to, I am taking this Commencement matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley, who is unfortunately detained in other wider Government business. She has asked me to outline some of the details for the benefit of the House, all of which are more than familiar to Senator Martin.

The major building project for Mercy Convent Primary School is included in the Minister's departmental construction programme, which is being delivered under the national development plan. The entire project brief is the completion contract for a new 32-classroom school, with two classrooms for children with special needs and ancillary accommodation, together with all associated site works.

The design team's stage 2b confirmations on the completion of the prefabrication process were completed in March 2023, and the project commenced its tender stage at that point. Tenders were returned in July 2023. A tender report was received by the Department of Education in September 2023 and is currently under review. As the Senator has alluded to, a letter has been issued. Yet, as he knows, that is not the end of the process. The wider process will take 12 months to complete from the point of July 2023. The Senator asked for a concrete timeline, and I think we are very much in the endgame of the tender process. It is required to be completed by July at the very latest. I am sure the Senator knows as well as I do that it should be done much sooner, and it will be done much sooner. I cannot give him a precise date, but I can give him the broad finishing point.

When the approval to proceed with construction is issued, however, the design team estimates it will take approximately 15 months to complete the construction of this school, all-in. I very much hope that Senator Martin will not have to bring this issue to the floor of the Seanad again. I think we are in sight of having the tender process completely concluded. Thereafter, the 15-month period can get cracking as soon as possible.

I will endeavour to bring the comments the Senator made here this afternoon to the Minister, Deputy Foley, in a speedy manner. If any further follow-up is needed by letter, I will ensure it is passed on to the Senator’s office.

I thank the Minister of State for his response and for deputising for the Minister, Deputy Foley, who is unavoidably absent today. Many parents are tuned into Oireachtas TV and some are in the Gallery today. They are all speechless because of these inexcusable delays to date.

The Minister of State's response lacks detail. It does not give the parents the concrete information or the concrete assurances that at this stage they deserve. The local Green Party councillor in Naas, Bob Quinn, is also a parent. They are all so justifiably frustrated. When will the fiasco end, when will the haemorrhaging of our Exchequer funds come to a conclusion and when will we get this job done? The schoolkids deserve better. The school has a beautiful, promising shell of a building. It has been lying idle for more than seven years and there is still no finishing post we can see such that we can say for sure when this will happen or bring this sorry saga to an end. It is a lovely building and the students deserve better.

I fully understand the frustration, disappointment and abject anger that many in the school community feel at this stage. I have laid out where the rough timelines will lead us. One thing I will suggest to the Senator, and I myself will make a deputation to the Minister, is that it is perhaps time for a meeting organised by the Senator with the school community and the Minister directly. A deputation meeting at this stage would definitely be received warmly by the Minister, and I will do the utmost in my powers to ensure that happens.

I thank the Minister of State for urging the Minister, Deputy Foley, in that regard. It is much appreciated.

Health Promotion

My Commencement matter asks the Minister for Education to make a statement on whether she has plans to introduce an awareness campaign for post-primary schools to highlight the dangers of vaping and e-cigarettes. This is a very significant issue that has emerged in recent years as to where we are with e-cigarettes and vaping.

While I was at the young scientist exhibition, which is a wonderful affair, and we have all had the opportunity to be there, I met wonderful students from a school in Dunmanway. They had a fantastic project which looked into the issue of vaping and how the students feel about the issue. They were Caoimhín and Ciara from Dunmanway community college. Their project was called The Rise of the Planet of the Vapes and was really well put together. It surveyed 100 students between the ages of 12 and 19 and found that 30% of them vaped, which is really significant. They went on to say the majority began vaping before they came to secondary school, which is the big issue here. That becomes the pathway and the gateway as to how the students move on to the next phase of smoking. The students' research went on to say that vaping is a gateway to smoking and that the majority, 56.7%, went on to smoke.

This is a new epidemic we have seen. We have seen a huge change in society as to how we have dealt with tobacco. I could be bold enough to say that the Minister of State's and my generation probably stepped away from it because the information was out there, but now this gateway of vaping has become a huge issue. I have been told there are more than 8,000 different flavours for anyone who wants to go down the line of vaping - anything from popcorn to chocolate to whatever you require. Now, because of that, teenagers and people in primary school are using e-cigarettes as a gateway to get into smoking.

Judging from the research we have come across, this strategy needs to start in primary schools. We need to start talking to fifth- and sixth-class pupils about this issue and about how we can empower them with information about what vaping could potentially do to their bodies. It is basically inhaling a chemical drug of some nature, and there is nicotine tagged onto that. The majority, over 50% of them, will be involved in smoking going forward. We need a real strategy for our primary school children. As a parent of three kids in primary school, I realise the pressures we have in the primary school sector and realise that it does an awful lot of good work. What is required is an holistic approach as to how we can nip this in the bud. The vaping epidemic we have seen has been in many ways crazy in how we have allowed it to build momentum.

It baffles me in so many ways. We need a strategy that involves going into primary schools in particular and engaging with students. Teachers must be empowered and provided with the information they need. We need an awareness campaign in order that the vaping epidemic we have can be stopped.

Again, I compliment Caoimhín and Ciara, the wonderful students from Dunmanway,. They looked at this issue from their point of view. They are fourth year students who surveyed their peers and brought forward concrete information and informed us about the issues involved. Vaping is now a gateway to smoking and has become a real problem. We must move forward with a dedicated strategy.

I thank Senator Lombard for raising this very pressing and timely issue. I have been provided with a fairly detailed response from the Department of Education which I may not get through in four minutes but a copy will be furnished to the Senator.

The Department of Education works together with the Department of Health and other agencies to support students in the area of health. The aim of this work is to equip students with the appropriate skills and knowledge to enable them to make the right choices for healthy lifestyles throughout their lives. Schools have a role to play in supporting their students to develop these key skills and gain the knowledge to enable them to make informed choices when faced with a range of difficult issues. This is mainly done through the social, personal and health education, SPHE, programme.

Work to develop a draft updated specification for well-being, including SPHE, at primary level, is being undertaken by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. This work follows on from the publication of the primary curriculum framework in March 2023, which set out proposals for the redevelopment of the primary curriculum. It is intended that public consultation on a draft specification will happen this year, with the intention of introduction in schools in 2025. This is a key opportunity for people to feed their opinions in and I would encourage Senator Lombard and his friends from Dunmway, his colleagues and the wonderful students to do so.

The importance of making healthy choices is one that is reflected in curricular developments beyond primary, in particular the new junior cycle SPHE specification which was published in May 2023 and introduced for first years in all schools from last September. As with all curriculum developments, consultation was undertaken on the draft junior cycle specification in 2022. In that consultation, both teachers and students identified that vaping is a growing and serious problem among teenagers and including this topic in the specification was seen as very important.

On vaping specifically, the learning outcomes in the junior cycle specification include that students should be able to investigate how unhealthy products, including vapes, are marketed and advertised, the consequences of using addictive substances, whether now or in the long-term, and the skills and strategies to help them make informed choices to support their health and well-being.

Work is also ongoing to update the SPHE specification for senior cycle and a draft specification was published for consultation in July, with the consultation running until 3 November last. That specification is currently being finalised, with the aim of starting introduction in schools from September 2024.

As I have said, the Department of Education works closely with the Department of Health and the HSE regarding healthy behaviours. Advice from the HSE in relation to vaping in schools was published and issued to school principals by the Department at the end of May 2023. Senators may also be aware that the Public Health (Tobacco Products and Nicotine Inhaling Products) Act came into effect on 22 December. This prohibits the sale of all nicotine-inhaling products to children and introduces a requirement for a licence for their sale. Further comprehensive regulation of nicotine inhaling products is being considered by the Department of Health, following a public consultation which concluded on 5 January last. I am also advised that the Department of Health and the HSE work closely with local authorities to develop voluntary initiatives that promote smoke-free and vape-free environments such as the Not Around Us campaign. These aim to further reduce the areas where smoking and vaping are present in daily life for young people.

As Senator Lombard will appreciate, there is an awful lot of work being done on this at the moment. There are many avenues for contributing to public consultations. There is an onus on us to increase awareness of the dangers of vaping in order to feed into a much better campus life, and a better life in general, for primary and secondary school students. There is an enormous window of opportunity here.

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response. It is very important that we make submissions on this and engage. By 2025, we will hopefully have an appropriate framework in place in order that teachers can engage with students and are empowered to deliver this programme. It is a changing world. Vaping was not an issue four or five years ago but it is a significant issue now.

I compliment the students in Dunmanway on their work and engaging with the pupils in their school to come up with these results. The real issue is that vaping is being used as a gateway drug. Traditionally, people used vaping to get off cigarettes but now vaping is a precursor to smoking cigarettes, which is the twist in the tail. It is a significant issue, particularly for young people in primary school who vape, then vape while in secondary school and, potentially, become smokers afterwards. I welcome the actual news but we need to do more, if we possibly could.

In conclusion, there is an awful lot of work being done in this space. If we reflect on the work that has been done over the last couple of days by the British Government in terms of disposable vapes then that gives an idea of a roadmap where we can move along both from a public health point of view and an education point of view.

It is key that the work undertaken by Caoimhín and Ciara in Dunmanway is fed into the consultation because their knowledge, with respect, is a lot better than our knowledge, Senator, when it comes to the practicalities of vaping in schools and, more generally, in peer groups in both junior and senior cycles. I commend both students on their work and, hopefully, the Senator can work with them to bring their proposals directly to either the Minister for Education or the Minister for Health in due course.

Third Level Fees

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Niall Collins.

I welcome the Minister of State to the House.

I will begin by commending the more than 200 graduate entry medical students who wrote to the Minister in October to highlight the extremely urgent issues and problems with the current fee model for graduate medical studies in this State. In their letter they highlighted that: "GEM students are not eligible for SUSI (or any other similar student financial support schemes), and since 2022 have had no access to any private medicine-specic loan services." This is following the end of the Bank of Ireland loan which previously filled that role. The yearly cost of tuition for these students can range "between €14,580 and €17,760 (with no option of payment deferral)" in terms of tuition fees. These costs do not include transport, equipment costs and, fundamentally, do not include the exorbitant cost of accommodation. These students have highlighted that entire sections of society are therefore precluded or effectively blocked "from obtaining a medical education – regardless of their drive, passion or academic achievements," or any desire they have to contribute in that area.

The issue of "pricing people out" from education is one of fundamental importance. It is education of a fundamental public good. Fees that diminish equal access to that are, indeed, a public bad and something we need to address. Crucially, in terms of medical education only being provided, we know that general education medical students may use the 1916 bursary, which the Minister of State may speak to in his response, but the maximum amount of bursary payable is €5,000 per year, which does not even cover 50% of the fees.

The Minister has previously referenced the availing of the student assistance fund. Again, that fund is not a systemic answer to ensuring access to a whole strand of medical education. The fund is something that was meant to be there on a needs basis and decided case by case. The level of funding available to students is not sufficient to live on. Also, the level of work required for a GEM course means that students do not really have the time or capacity to engage in sufficient paid employment to earn a living thus meaning they can pay for their tuition.

Exorbitant fees and "pricing out" taken together is completely unacceptable and, indeed, foolish at a time when the Department of Health's national task force has identified the need for an additional 2,000 hospital consultants and 1,000 junior doctor posts by the end of the decade, and that the working experience of junior doctors needs to be improved. We need to ensure that we retain doctors and have a pipeline that means medical education is accessible. It is also important to have a medical profession that reflects wider society because not only is education a public good but health is a public good.

Having doctors who reflect wider society is part of ensuring that we have health systems that genuinely work for all communities. We saw how important that was during the pandemic.

It is important and interesting to note that one of the most impactful persons ever to enter the medical profession in Ireland, Dr. Noël Browne himself, was only able to do so because he received a scholarship for his medical education. His lived experience in respect of the destructive effect of tuberculous on Irish families and poor communities across Ireland was hugely important in inspiring him to take the actions to become the person who eradicated it. This is just an example of why we need diversity in our education system and in medicine.

I would like to know what steps are being taken to ensure equitable access in medicine.

This is an extremely pertinent issue. Well done, Senator.

I thank Senator Higgins for raising this matter. Graduate entry medicine is open to students who have already completed an honours undergraduate degree in any academic discipline and achieved a minimum 2.1 award in this degree. Students pursuing graduate entry medicine programmes do so as a second degree course and, consequently, are not eligible for free fees, funding or student grants.

It is important to state that this is also the case for all other degree courses. The State currently has no role in providing fee or grant assistance to a student who pursues a second degree. The fees payable by these students are determined by the institution and, as such, it is not open to me to intervene in the tuition fee policy of institutions.

However, our Department has been working to address the number of undergraduate medicine places. On 12 July 2022, the Ministers, Deputies Harris and Donnelly, announced an agreement with the Irish medical schools to increase the number of places available for EU students by 200 over the next five years. The agreement reached with the medical schools began with an additional 60 EU students in September 2022, climbing to 120 in September of last year and up to 200 by the year 2026. The agreement included additional graduate entry medicine places. To date, an additional ten graduate entry places – five in 2022 and another five in 2023 – have been created, with further additional places planned up to 2026.

This marked a significant expansion in the number of places available to students applying through the CAO system. It increases the opportunities for students to progress to study medicine in Ireland and to help us build up our talent pipeline.

We have been making improvements though. The State currently provides a subsidy to HEIs towards the cost of provision for graduate entry medicine places, and that is gradually increasing. The subsidy has already increased from a rate of €11,950 in the 2021-22 academic year to €12,100 per student in the 2022-23 academic year, and will progressively increase over the coming years to the new rate of €14,500. The State contribution towards graduate entry places will be increased in phases so that by 2026, all graduate entry places will be funded by the State at €14,500, with additional fees as determined by the university payable by the student. The adjusted subsidy rate is an important component of reaching agreement with the medical schools to increase medicine places for EU students.

In addition, our Department provides bursaries to students who have been identified by their higher education institution as being the most socioeconomically disadvantaged students under the national access plan. Students who avail of certain bursaries will now be allowed to retain them if they choose to enter the graduate entry medicine programmes. This is a welcome development that will also help diversify the profession.

Students on graduate entry medicine programmes will also be eligible to apply to the student assistance fund for financial support. This is an area we need policy clarity on. We have engaged with the Department of Health on it and continue to do so. We must ensure that whatever decision applied is fair and proportionate.

The measures the Minister of State outlined are about engagement with the institutions but not providing support to the individuals.

The concern is that we are in a situation whereby the discussion is as if this education was a commodity rather than a pipeline for an essential public service. I have sat in committees where we talked about the lack of doctors and yet there does not seem to be a concern in relation to this. I would say that the bursary measure is the only measure that is targeted towards students and it is a woefully inadequate measure. Is there a recognition that this is a problem for the State in terms of not having sufficient numbers, which we have talked about briefly, but also not having sufficient diversity in those coming through our medical systems? I suggest that this is one area that is particularly different. The Minister of State, Deputy Collins, said that we do not give fees or grant assistance for a second degree. This, however, is an area where the State requires a second degree. This is a public need and is not solely around the individuals. There is a public need for more doctors and more diversity within the medical profession.

I thank the Senator and I will make her views absolutely known to the Department. The matter of health workforce planning and ensuring an appropriate pipeline of qualified healthcare workers within Ireland is a major priority for our Department. I want to assure the Senator that it is our key objective to try to continue to make improvements for all students including general entry medicine students. It does require both Departments to be at the table and we are working on it. It does raise complex issues that need to be considered and we will continue to engage with this House and with the Senator on these matters.

Road Projects

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Neale Richmond, for coming to the House. I am disappointed not to see somebody from the Department of Transport here this afternoon but I thank the Minister of State for coming into the Chamber. Somebody from the Government coming in is better than nobody, I guess, so I thank him for coming in today to deal with this matter, which is of great importance to the people of Thurles, the whole of County Tipperary and the surrounding counties.

The route for a bypass road for Thurles was mooted as far back as 2011. The project was set to go ahead at that time but along with countless other national projects it was put on hold due to the financial crash. Obviously the residents of Thurles expected to see it back on the agenda post-recovery and yet the project was conspicuously absent from the 2014 national development plan. The need for this bypass project plan to be finalised and acted upon as a matter of urgency is plain to see for anyone familiar with Thurles town centre. The square in the centre of Thurles sees 15,000 to 20,000 vehicles, on average, pass through it every single day. Liberty Square serves as a meeting point of the N62 and the N75 meaning that the traffic is not just commuter vehicles but a constant flow of heavy goods vehicles, farm vehicles and articulated lorries. These HGVs are of particular concern because due to their size they have huge blind spots and can be highly dangerous in built-up areas. Thurles has seen four separate road vehicle deaths over the past 25 years, all of which were pedestrians knocked down by HGVs. Only last year one of these lorries knocked down and killed an elderly gentleman. It was a tragic accident that may well have been avoided if this bypass was in place.

Given that the national development plan is up for review next year, will the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, commit to including the Thurles bypass project in the next edition of the plan? This has been requested for well over a decade at this stage and many people have been pushing for it. An Independent councillor, Jim Ryan, has been active on this matter and has been looking to get answers from the Government. The Thurles municipal district council sent two letters to the Minister last year asking for a meeting with him on this issue but the council did not even receive a response initially. I understand that this has since been acted upon and that the Minister of State, Deputy Jack Chambers, is to meet with council members tomorrow. This is certainly welcome and we look forward to what the outcome of that meeting might be. For now, what might the Minister, Deputy Ryan, or his Department have to say on this matter? Can we expect the inclusion of the Thurles bypass project in next year's review of the 2040 national development plan?

I thank the Senator for raising this very important issue. The Minister for Transport has responsibility for overall policy and Exchequer funding in relation to the national roads programme.

Once funding arrangements have been put in place with Transport Infrastructure Ireland under the roads Acts 1993 to 2015 and in line with the national development plan, the planning, design, improvement and upgrading of individual national roads is a matter for TII in conjunction with the local authorities concerned.

TII ultimately delivers the national roads programme in line with Project Ireland 2040, the national planning framework, and the NDP. The Government has earmarked €5.1 billion for capital spending on new national roads projects from 2021 to 2030 as part of the NDP. This funding will enable improved regional accessibility throughout the country as well as compact growth, which are key national strategic outcomes. The funding will provide for the development of numerous national road projects, including the completion of projects which are already at construction stage and those close to it as well as the development of a number of others. As the greater portion of this funding becomes available in the second half of the decade, this means there is a constraint on the funding available for new projects this year. However, most national road projects in the NDP will continue to be progressed in 2024.

A major priority in the NDP, in line with Department's investment hierarchy, is to maintain the quality and safety of the existing national road network. The NDP foresees an Exchequer allocation of circa €2.9 billion for the protection and renewal of existing national roads over the ten-year period for 2030, allocated fairly evenly across the decade. Approximately €491 million of Exchequer capital funds have been provided for national roads through TII to local authorities in 2023. The 2024 allocations will be announced in the very near future.

A national roads bypass for Thurles was considered but the project was suspended in 2011, primarily due to the economic downturn. The project was not included in the current national development plan which was announced in 2021, or indeed in the previous NDP. Therefore, TII and Tipperary County Council have not been in a position to provide further funding for the project at this time. The Thurles inner relief road is a regional road project being developed by Tipperary County Council, however. This scheme comprises an inner relief road between the N62 national secondary road at the junction with Clongour Road and the Mill Road to the east of the River Suir. This project is mentioned in the NDP as being at the early stages of planning and design and subject to the appropriate approvals. The capital plan published in September 2015 outlined proposed transport investment priorities to 2022. The Thurles inner relief road was not included among the projects identified for development during that period. However, the Department, through the strategic regional and local roads grant, allocated funding in 2022 and 2023 to facilitate Tipperary County Council in progressing the scheme towards completion. Strategic grant allocations for 2024 will be notified to local authorities as part of the general grant allocation process which will be issued in the coming weeks. I have no doubt that members of the community and indeed Tipperary County Council will be able to get more detail from the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, at their meeting this week, when he will be able to provide a timeline or indeed indication as to funding.

I thank the Minister of State for the response. In regard to the last line of the response, that the strategic grant allocation 2024 will be notified to local authorities as part of general grant allocation process which will be issued in the coming weeks, I hope this particular development will be part of that. This is of interest to the Thurles municipal district council and to the public. It is to be hoped it will allow them to be prepared for the meeting with the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, tomorrow.

We are looking at Tipperary this afternoon but there is not a county in the country that does not have projects like this. We have the Slane bypass in County Meath. Once promised, they are never delivered and a sea of excuses and red tape comes between locals and their badly needed improvements to infrastructure and amenities.

Looking at the Exchequer tax intake, it seems we are experiencing some years of plenty. It would be worthwhile investing that money in projects such as this to improve the country. We never know when the years of famine might come. We have money in the Exchequer now for these large projects. It is important that when we have the money, it is spent on the communities that need it most.

As I mentioned at the outset, the allocations for 2024 are expected to be announced in the near future. The Senator is right that we have been very fortunate to have a record tax take in recent years, both in terms of income tax and corporate tax. However, the investment being put into infrastructure, society and preparation for the future is very clear, as is the ability to put money away because, given times of famine were referenced by the Senator, when we had a rainy day fund before, we needed it very quickly when the rain started falling. That is prudent and sensible. We will also have a strategic sovereign wealth fund whereby we will be able to invest in the future. We are one of the few European economies that has grown and is able to run at a surplus. We are investing heavily in infrastructure in terms of roads, public transport, housing and business improvements we need. I will take the points made by Senator Keogan directly to the Minister, Deputy Ryan. I have no doubt those interested will be able to elicit a more direct response from the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, this week.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 1.40 p.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 2 p.m.
Sitting suspended at 1.40 p.m. and resumed at 2 p.m.
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