Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 8 Feb 2024

Vol. 298 No. 10

Nithe i dtosach suíonna - Commencement Matters

Energy Conservation

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach for selecting my Commencement matter. I was chuffed by the fact that the office of the senior Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, rang to say he was not able to take it and that the Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, would deputise. The Minister of State is quite welcome to deal with this and I am sure he is very competent as well.

My issue relates to SEAI grants and the considerable delay - sometimes up to two years - for house wrapping in particular. It probably also applies to the underfloor heating systems but I will not concentrate on that.

There is an unusual situation whereby SEAI personnel must carry out the building energy rating, BER. I checked on Google this morning; there are 11 or 12 reputable companies advertising rating from A to G, A being the maximum and G the minimum. When a property is being sold, it is more or less taken as standard among solicitors and auctioneers that there has to be a BER certificate. The SEAI people visited the widow to whom I refer and who is getting her house wrapped, four different times. There could be a four-month delay to get SEAI BER certification because nothing else is accepted. This is a dangerous monopoly.

Any competent qualified engineer could do this work. There is one in a west Cork town who has a masters degree in engineering. She specialises in BER certification and many solicitors and auctioneers deal with her. In one instance, a contentious issue was challenged in court and upheld. It is an unhealthy monopoly. Ordinary citizens get little information when they phone the centres providing this information.

A councillor in Kerry said he had contacted a centre in Cahersiveen on a number of occasions and that getting information was like trying to get teeth out of a duck. A delay of 18 months or two years is unwarranted. Is there too much demand for the services? In my area, a widow in her 70s purchased a local authority house, something which was encouraged. It was built in the 1970s. She wants the house to be wrapped. She has a stove and is using solid fuel. She sometimes uses coal, if she can get it, as well as turf and timber. In one sense, the Department of the environment has said that is a no-no but she has no other way of heating her house. She has waited in excess of 18 months and does not know when the job will be done.

When builders do restoration or other work on houses, they usually say that they will be with someone within two weeks and will let them know when they are starting work. Another lady who spoke to me said she did not know when workers were coming. They arrived one Monday morning when there was a family wedding. She was totally unprepared and was told that if she delayed the work they would not be back for another nine months. She went ahead with the work, but it did not happen at an appropriate time. It would have been more appropriate to be told three or four weeks earlier that the workers would be with her in the first week of February or March and would proceed with the building.

I am concerned about inordinate delays. The SEAI is probably understaffed. I am also concerned about the monopoly in respect of BER certification. I am asking questions in a careful and managed, rather than a derogatory, way. Is it the case that grants may run out and SEAI schemes evaporate or slow down? Are those involved saying they will manage things as best they can because if everything folds in five years' time, which we hope it will not, they will be without jobs? Is it a case of jobs for the boys?

Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs (Deputy Sean Fleming)

I thank Senator Denis O'Donovan for raising this issue. It is obviously an issue which is close to his heart. He represents people in his area when he raises it here in the House. It is an issue that is cropping up in every county in Ireland.

I am speaking on behalf of the Minister. The climate action plan and the national retrofit plan set ambitious targets to retrofit the equivalent of 500,000 homes to a BER B2 rating in a cost optimal manner and the installation of 400,000 heat pumps in existing homes to replace older and less efficient heating systems by the end of 2030. To promote and incentivise the achievement of these targets, the Government has put in place a package of supports to make it easier and more affordable for homeowners to undertake home energy upgrades for warmer, healthier and more comfortable homes with lower energy bills. As part of this support, increased grants have been made available under SEAI-administered schemes.

As part of the support, increased grant rates have been made available under SEAI-administered schemes. The better energy homes scheme offers individual grants and allows homeowners to take a step-by-step approach or to self-manage the project, while the national home energy upgrade scheme and the community energy grant scheme are aimed at homeowners wishing to undertake a whole-home energy upgrade to achieve a BER of at least B2. The better energy warmer homes scheme provides fully-funded upgrades to homeowners at risk of energy poverty.

Last year, demand across the SEAI schemes was exceptionally high. Indicative figures show that in 2023 a total of 47,952 homeowner energy upgrades were supported. This represents a 76% increase in outputs year-on-year. Of this total, 17,599 homes achieved a B2 rating. This represents an increase of 107% on B2 upgrades supported in 2022. Under the better energy warmer homes scheme, 5,897 free upgrades for energy-poor homes were delivered. This represents a 33% increase compared with 2022. Grant support for external wall insulation was provided to 6,110 homeowners in 2023 across the better energy homes scheme; the national home energy upgrade scheme, which is delivered by the one-stop shops; the community energy grant scheme; and the better energy warmer homes scheme, which is fully funded. Overall, 67,411 applications for grant support were received by the SEAI, equating to a 34% increase on 2022 levels. This indicates a strong pipeline and demand for works for this year.

The time taken for the completion of works varies depending on the scheme applied for. The better energy homes scheme and the solar PV scheme are demand-led schemes that require homeowners to procure their own contractors following grant approval from the SEAI. This approval process is instantaneous once requirements for the SEAI grant application portal are met by the applicants. Works must be completed within an eight-month period, starting from the date of grant approval. This is a reasonably short timescale where the homeowner is directly involved.

Under the national home energy upgrade scheme and the community energy grant scheme, homeowners engage a registered one-stop-shop or project co-ordinator, respectively, to manage the grant application process and oversee delivery of the retrofit work on their behalf. Works must be completed within 12 months of approval. Under the better energy warmer homes scheme, the average waiting time, from application to completion, for upgrades to homes completed in 2023 was just under 20 months. This is a decrease from 26 months for homes completed in 2022. It is definitely a very long timescale but the waiting period has been decreasing since 2023, and we hope there will be further reductions in the waiting times in 2024.

Senator Denis O'Donovan

I have no doubt that these are extraordinarily good schemes. I put my hands up and applaud what is being done, but I think there should be greater interaction with and more explanation given to the customers who ring up and ask where their applications are at and what is delaying them. I refer to those customers being told it was going to be six months down the road. Perhaps the Minister of State will convey my next point back to the Minister and the personnel in the Department. I still cannot understand why the SEAI insists that nobody else can do these BER certificates except itself. It is ludicrous because there are plenty of qualified people out there. I checked here in Dublin this morning and there were six or seven groups offering a service where people could phone a number and get a certificate done within four to six weeks. The current requirement has delayed some of these projects by six months, and it is only adding insult to injury. Elderly people deserve better. I know there is probably great demand in this regard but perhaps something could be done to ramp up the delivery of these schemes and ensure that the people out there, mostly elderly, waiting for them get proper attention and satisfaction.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I listened carefully to what Senator O'Donovan said and I absolutely take on board the point he raised concerning the limited number of people who can provide BER certificates. This can cause a logjam. I will take this point back to the Minister and ask if additional people can be added to that list to ensure people's applications can be dealt with earlier. I think this is a fair point and that I am right when I say the situation the Senator spoke about applies right across the country and not just in his area. The main principles of these schemes are fairness, universality, that all types of houses are covered and that the issue of the consumer is also taken into account in this regard too.

As regards work to reduce the waiting time, the SEAI has allocated additional staff for the warmer homes scheme and a significantly increased budget allocation has been given for this year. The SEAI works to increase contractor output through active contract engagement and management.

On the issue raised by the Senator, which I have encountered personally, where workers arrive almost unexpectedly and the householder is told they are ready to do it, if they cannot start work immediately, the householder will be put to the bottom of the list. That is bad customer relations and needs to be dealt with.

National Cultural Institutions

Senator Fintan Warfield

I welcome the Minister of State to the House and thank him for taking this Commencement matter. There was a very good article in The Guardian before Christmas about an Irish woman, Isabella Walsh from Limerick. A previous article in The Guardian inspired her to return her late father's collection of 19th century African and Aboriginal objects to their countries of origin. She is from Limerick and 39 years of age. She contacted embassies and consulates in Dublin and London to repatriate ten objects her father had in his possession, including spears, harpoon heads and a shield, after she read about other cases of people returning cultural heritage goods to their countries of origin. Her father, Larry Walsh, was an archaeologist and a creator of the Limerick Museum. He had always cherished these items due to his passionate interest in African and Aboriginal cultures but, as he believed the objects belong to the peoples from whom they originated, his daughter, Isabella, went about the job of contacting embassies and consulates and realising her father's final wish of returning and repatriating the artefacts after he passed away.

Since 2017, I have been calling for a Government policy on the repatriation of cultural heritage or identifiably stolen goods from our time in the British empire. As we know, museums throughout Europe, including those in the former imperial capitals of France, Belgium, the Netherlands and Germany, are packed with collections, objects and artefacts that have imperialist and colonial origins. These ethnographic collections consist of human activity objects, such as sculpture, weapons, clothing, jewellery, tools and decorations. According to Dan Hicks, professor of contemporary archaeology at the University of Oxford, the National Museum of Ireland and the Hunt Museum in Limerick, and possibly the Ulster Museum, hold material that was looted from Benin City, then known as the Kingdom of Benin, in Nigeria by British forces in 1897. The National Museum, located beside Leinster House, is home to approximately 11,000 objects and artefacts that form part of a non-European ethnographic collection acquired since 1760. This collection contains concrete examples of the culture of peoples from the Pacific, Asia, Africa and the Americas and has been described by Dr. William Hart of Ulster University as one of the finest of its kind in the world. I probably do not have time to outline why the museum holds these collections but it comes from the transfer of collections from the RDS, Trinity College Dublin and the Royal Irish Academy to the Museum of Science and Art in 1890.

I am conscious that the Minister has announced the first meeting of an advisory group on the restitution of cultural heritage. I welcome the establishment of the group and wish to give the Department a chance to outline on the record of the House what the plan and hope is for that advisory committee.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank the Senator for tabling this important matter for discussion here in the Seanad. I am taking it on behalf of the Minister, Catherine Martin, who cannot be with us. The Senator has a long and deep knowledge of the area. It is a matter he has been following for a lengthy period. That is why it is good to have a debate on the matter this morning.

Internationally, in recent years, there have been a number of high-profile cases in which artefacts have been returned by cultural institutions to their places of origin. There is growing public awareness of these issues and the need for guidance for cultural institutions in Ireland regarding how to deal with such cases. Recognising this, the Heritage Council proposed the establishment of an advisory committee on issues relating to repatriation and restitution of historically and culturally sensitive objects in Ireland.

In June last year, the Minister, Deputy Martin, brought a memorandum of information to the Government regarding the intention to form the advisory committee and to outline the work it would be undertaking. The advisory committee was established and met for the first time to begin its work on this important topic in December 2023. The advisory committee is chaired by Sir Donnell Deeny, member of the Court of Arbitration for Art in The Hague, and the chair of the UK Government's spoliation advisory committee. The Heritage Council, as the statutory body with responsibility for the museum standard programme of Ireland, serves as the oversight body for the advisory committee and provides the secretarial support for this particular committee. The members of the advisory committee were chosen due to the experience and expertise they bring to the committee. They are drawn from the museum archives and gallery sector and relevant Departments, and include members with legal expertise as well as members who can also bring the perspective of communities of origin. The objective of the advisory committee is to provide policy advice and prepare national guidelines to support Irish cultural institutions in dealing with objects of unknown provenance in their collections, including those that may have been illegally or unethically elicited or traded into Ireland many years ago. Currently, there are no guidelines for cultural institutions in Ireland on how to deal with such objects. The new advisory committee will provide critical support to collection managers regarding professional standards in the management of cultural heritage. The advisory committee with undertake research into international best practice within the field of provenance, research, restitution and repatriation. It will also engage with key stakeholders to assess the scope of relevant cultural heritage collection in Ireland. The advisory committee held its first meeting, as I mentioned, on 4 December and will meet again soon to consider initial work carried out by the Heritage Council.

This is a complex and sensitive issue and one that is increasingly coming to the fore for museums worldwide. While there have been some cases in Ireland, it has not gained the prominence it has in other countries. That makes it all the more important that we in Ireland provide structures and guidance now to support our national institutions in navigating this terrain that will continue into the future. The Minister believes that the work of the advisory committee will provide Irish cultural institutions with an opportunity to openly and transparently tackle difficult issues, which will improve public awareness of these. She is confident that the work of the committee will improve the understanding of cultural artefacts with provenance the provenance of which would otherwise remain unknown, along with the culture from where they came. This will foster greater dialogue and co-operation on the issue and above all will help increase public awareness and discussion. Most Irish people will agree and be fully supportive of returning artefacts to the counties or the cultures of their origin. There would be support for that but it needs to be done on a structured basis with a proper approach. The Minister, therefore, looks forward to reviewing the output of the work of this committee in the Heritage Council in due course.

Senator Fintan Warfield

I thank the Minister of State, and the Minister, Deputy Martin, and her officials in the Department for the update. I wish the advisory committee well, including Lynn Scarff, the director of the National Museum of Ireland, and Virginia Teehan, the chief executive of the Heritage Council, and all of the folks on the advisory committee. I wish them all the best. It is a complex issue; of that there is no doubt. It is heartening to see the Department place an emphasis on public awareness around these issues. I almost missed the establishment of the advisory committee despite having an interest, including politically, in this over the years so I hope that public awareness can be increased. No objects should be repatriated without being displayed publicly in Ireland first and the public awareness increased about that. I acknowledge the advisory committee will look at the institutions but for individuals and citizens such as Isabella Walsh, I hope the remit might include their situations as well and give advice to individual citizens on returning objects that have questionable provenance.

Deputy Sean Fleming

In recent times, this issue has become prominent in many other countries, many of which are developing and issuing national policies in this area.

The Heritage Council is supporting the committee in its work. Other countries that have restitution committees include Australia, France, Germany and the Netherlands. We can deal with the panel involved in the UK to obtain advice on how it went about matters. It may have many more artefacts to deal with and might have developed policies in this regard. It is proposed that the advisory committee will take 18 months from its establishment, which was last December. The Minister looks forward to receiving its report, fully acting on it and giving guidelines to the national institutions. The Senator’s suggestion on displaying items in Ireland before repatriating them is very good. I thank him for raising these matters. I will bring his comments directly back to the Minister.

Social Welfare Eligibility

Senator Maria Byrne

I thank the Minister of State for coming here today to outline the criteria regarding the living alone allowance. I have been contacted by many people in this regard. The house of the neighbours of one person became infested with rodents and the person allowed those neighbours – a man, his wife and a small baby – to stay in his house for free for a couple of months while the infested house was being sorted out. It was a rented house. The man ended up losing his living alone allowance even though he was not benefiting from the couple living with him. A teacher was on to me because of the way their pension is structured. The person does not actually qualify for the living alone allowance and is only barely over the threshold. Is there any review under way? The teacher and retired gentleman I was speaking to both live alone and find it difficult. The living alone allowance was used to pay some of the bills. It was extra money towards some of the bills because the cost of living has certainly gone up. I would love to see the criteria reconsidered. For the gentleman who took people in for the greater good and was not benefiting, there has to be some sort of flexibility or leeway. The teacher does not qualify because of the way the criteria are structured. I look forward to the Minister of State’s response.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank the Senator for raising this issue. It is not isolated. Every Oireachtas Member has encountered a difficult case in his or her constituency regarding this matter. The issue raised by the Senator affects people all over Ireland. It is important to put that on the record so people listening will understand it is not just a local issue.

Primary weekly social welfare payments from the Department of Social Protection are intended to enable recipients to meet basic day-to-day income needs. In addition to providing those primary payments, the Department provides a range of other payments, both cash and non-cash, weekly, monthly or less frequently. These are considered secondary in nature. The living alone allowance is a secondary payment. It is not a scheme or a stand-alone payment in itself but rather a supplement to a primary social welfare protection payment of €22 per week made to people aged over 66 who are in receipt of certain social welfare payments and living alone. For those aged over 66, these primary payments include the contributory State pension, the non-contributory State pension, the widow’s, widower’s and surviving civil partner’s contributory pension, the widow’s and widower’s pension under the occupational injuries benefit scheme, incapacity supplement under the occupational injuries benefit scheme, and the deserted wife's benefit payment. Accordingly, there are no circumstances in which the living alone allowance can be paid to people who are not in receipt of a primary qualifying payment. That is the issue the Senator is referring to. She is correct, and I am confirming the actual position straight up.

Any decision to allow those who are not in receipt of a qualifying payment to receive a living alone allowance and thereby establish it as a new stand-alone scheme would have budgetary and administrative consequences and would have to be considered solely in the context of budget negotiations.

PRSI contributions are paid on discounted class B and class D rates, as paid by civil and public servants recruited prior to April 1995 and are not reckonable for the contributory State pension. Recipients of occupational pensions from the civil and public services may apply for a means test for the State non-contributory pension. If a person is deemed eligible for this they may be eligible to receive the living alone allowance.

Civil and public servants recruited after 1995 see their occupational pension integrated with the State pension and pay PRSI at the class A rate. These contributions are reckonable for State pensions purposes and if other conditions are met, a person may not be eligible for an increase in the living alone allowance when in receipt of the State pension. The issue the Senator mentioned related to a teacher who would have been a public servant some time ago and was not on the class A PRSI; their pension is based on their class B or class D PRSI contribution rates. The pension they would receive from the Civil Service or the Department of Education, as the case may be, is not considered a primary social welfare payment. Therefore they are not eligible for the supplementary payment because they are not in receipt of the primary payment in the first place. That is the situation and it would require a policy change. That can only be considered in the context of a budget, which will be later on this year.

Senator Maria Byrne

I thank the Minister of State for his comprehensive response. As he said himself, this is something which affects many people in many constituencies, so I will speak to the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Humphreys, about it to see if it can be considered. I know it seems like the budget is a lifetime away but we are in February now and time flies by. Now is the time to start looking at the issue to see if a review can be carried out. I ask the Minister of State to take that request back. We have the case of the teacher on the one hand and the case of the man who took in neighbours because of an issue that was beyond their control. He was merely being kind to them but he got penalised for it. There has to be a degree of flexibility. I hope the Minister of State can highlight that with the Minister.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank the Senator for highlighting this particular case. The neighbour was only performing an act of charity and should not have been penalised for it. I do not know anything about the circumstances of the case. I can understand that the issue probably depends on how long the people were living there. I know that rent was not being charged but it would be important in the case to know how long the people were living there. If it was turned down, I would certainly hope that it would have been taken to the social welfare appeals office to get a ruling on it. At a time of bereavement, an elderly relative can come and stay in a house for a period. That should not compromise anyone's entitlement to a social welfare payment. The Senator makes strong points in this case.

Earlier, I concentrated all my remarks on people over the age of 66. It is also paid to people who are in receipt of the following social welfare payments who are under 66 years of age: disability allowance; invalidity pension; incapacity supplement and blind pension. That is only right as well. We often encounter the following situation. There can be an elderly person in a house on the living alone allowance. If a son or daughter comes back to live in the house and they are in employment, everybody in the house has to be eligible for the scheme. If there are people in the house who are not eligible for the scheme, like a working son or daughter, that can disbar the parent in those situations. Those are the kinds of issues we have to be careful about.

Special Educational Needs

Senator Marie Sherlock

Go raibh maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. I thank the Minister of State for taking this on behalf of the Minister for Education today. I am very conscious that there has been a lot of attention this week on the Department of Education's failure to properly plan for secondary school places in certain areas, in greater Dublin, Kildare, and Wicklow. We have a long-running issue regarding the massive shortage of special school places and special class places right across the country. We had the damning report from the Ombudsman for Children in 2022.

The report describes a Department of Education that actually has the information with regard to the number of children who need places, yet despite this is responding to rather than having a concerted effort to plan for the children who we know will need special needs education over future years. I am also conscious that in November of last year, the Minister for Education said that over the next three to five years all post-primary schools will be required to provide special classes. What about the children who need special school classes or places now? In particular, what are the Department and the National Council for Special Education doing to match the current demand for special classes and special school places with the places that are actually available?

Currently the system is not working. Many parents of children who have additional needs are applying to 15, 20 or more schools in a desperate bid to find a place for their child. Every time, they have to provide an original birth certificate. That is €20 a pop. When it turns out that they do not get a place, many of them turn to their SENOs because they have had a long-running relationship with them. Many SENOs tell them to just keep applying and to appeal the places they did not get. That is a nonsense. Parents are having to blindly navigate a system and there is no proper system in place to match where there is demand for places and where there is available supply. At the heart of this are families, parents who already have to navigate enormous challenges such as a fight to get assessment for their child. We know there are thousands of children out there waiting for an assessment. They have another battle to get the right therapies and make incredible efforts to shield their children from those stresses of trying to find services. Overall that is an enormous amount of emotional wear and tear in trying to do the very best for their child. I know there is some excellent work being done by the NCSE and by some SENOs on the ground but there is no consistency. Parents and their children are bearing the brunt of a dysfunctional system.

These questions have been asked before. We know the Department of Education issues a standard reply that the local SENO should offer tailored guidance and provide further information on suitable class vacancies to the student's parents but in many instances we know this is not happening. How do we have a situation of families having to go the effort of applying to 20 plus schools? I know that expanding the number of special school places and special class places is not easy. There are challenges there. Really what I am asking about here is the low-hanging fruit, ensuring there is a real-time system of matching parents who need to find a place for their children for this September with the available places that happen to be in the greater Dublin area. These children are eligible for the school transport scheme. It is far from ideal that they have to travel far from their communities but still that scheme is there and they can travel. The reality is that parents are in the dark and do not know who to apply to.

I think in particular of one child, Naoise Ó Faoláin, who was attending a local school, and has had to travel across the city to Ballsbridge for the last number of years. His school is not a feeder school for any school. He is left in complete limbo. He cannot get a place in the area where he lives and the school he is attending is not a feeder school for anywhere in the city. His parents are scrambling to find a place for their child for this September and have no place. He is one of many thousands of children across this country. We are asking for the low-hanging fruit, for a system of matching to be put in place while the bigger challenge is tackled of ensuring there are enough special school places and special class places being rolled out.

Deputy Sean Fleming

On behalf of the Minister I want to thank Senator Sherlock for raising this matter this morning. A priority of this Government is to ensure that all children have an appropriate school placement and that necessary supports are provided to our schools to cater for the needs of children with special educational needs. It is important to remember that the vast majority of children with special educational needs are supported to attend mainstream classes with their peers. To support children with more complex needs, special classes in mainstream schools and special schools are provided. In 2023, the Department spent over €2.6 billion on special education and further progress will be made this year as an additional €113 million will be allocated to providing support for children with special educational needs.

This includes funding to support children with special educational needs in mainstream classes, for new special classes and new special school places, for additional special education teachers and special needs assistants, and for the National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS.

In 2024, the number of teaching and SNA posts in our schools will increase by 774 teachers and 1,216 SNAs, added to deliver up to 2,700 new places for children with special educational needs. This means there will be more than 41,500 qualified and committed people in our schools who are focused wholly and exclusively on supporting children with special educational needs. It is important we recognise the work they are doing. Substantial work is being done, demand is increasing and the Government is increasing the facilities available, the staff and the required additional classrooms and temporary extensions to schools as appropriate. A message should not go out suggesting the system does not work. It is working and that is a testament to school principals, boards of management and the 41,500 qualified and committed staff who provide this service.

I accept there is unmet demand. There is not a Member of the Oireachtas who would not agree on that. All Members have these issues in their areas, and what the Senator said chimed with what we all know. Nevertheless, we also know fabulous facilities are being provided in many places, and I wanted to put that on the record of the House lest people thought we were going to ignore it.

The NCSE has responsibility for the planning and co-ordinating of school support for children with special educational needs, and over recent years the Department and the NCSE have introduced a number of strategic initiatives to plan for and provide sufficient special classes and special school places. These initiatives are bearing fruit, with almost 1,300 new special classes sanctioned and seven new special schools established over the past four years. The Department of Education engages intensively with the NCSE in respect of forward planning for new special classes and additional special school places. The forward planning work is well under way for the 2024-25 school year. This work involves a detailed review of statistical data in respect of forecasting demand for special class places, analysis of available school accommodation, consideration of improved data-sharing arrangements and a particular focus on the provision of special classes at post-primary level.

As a result of the forward planning, two new special schools are being established for the current school year in Cork and Dublin, with further capacity being expanded in 11 other special schools. This will bring to four the number of special schools established in Dublin in recent years, in addition to the ones that were already there. In December 2023, the Minister, Deputy Foley, and the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, announced the establishment of a further four new special schools for 2024-25, in Enfield, south Kildare, Gorey and Limerick. This will bring to 11 the number of new special schools established nationwide in recent years.

Senator Marie Sherlock

I thank the Minister of State for the reply. I welcome the work that is being done. It has been a scramble, but I will wholeheartedly support every expansion of special needs places. Having said that, there is a big difference between announcements and delivery. Even in Dublin 7, we have seen a delay in the opening of a new special school. These things happen. As adults, we can wait, but children cannot. Weeks and months matter, not least for a child with an additional need.

We need to ensure their families will be helped to at least find those places, and that process is not working at the moment . There needs to be a clear message from the Department of Education to the National Council for Special Education and to SENOs throughout the country - indeed, to the Department itself - that we need to do better. We need to ensure there will be active management of the places that become available with the families who need them. All too often, families come to me and tell they are being left in the dark. It is not good enough that a family has to go to the effort of applying to 20-plus schools. That is a complete waste of time.

I sincerely ask that in this window between when there is a shortage of supply and a mismatch between where supply is coming on board and where the children are on the one hand and the expansion of places to every school in the country on the other, a process of active management of those places be put in place, because parents are not experiencing that on the ground.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I agree with the Senator's remarks on the feeder school. The child is attending a school that is not in his locality and when it comes to secondary school it becomes an issue. I am aware of that issue myself. Much of the focus in recent years has been on primary schools and the focus now needs to be on secondary schools as well because we have lots of children leaving primary school and there is not a place for them in secondary school. This particular issue is being experienced at both school levels.

Along with the two new special schools that I mentioned, 390 new special classes, 254 at primary level and 136 at second level, have been sanctioned for the current school year. A total of 71 of these are in County Dublin; 48 primary and 23 post-primary. That is a significant number in the Dublin area.

I note the Senator's reference to the pressure on parents of families. It is phenomenal. With this in mind, the number of SENOs will increase from 73 to 120, and this will increase the number of teams available to parents and schools throughout the country from ten to 20. This will result in all SENO grades assigned to a county undertaking caseloads and working directly with parents as well.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Niall Blaney)

Before we start the next Commencement matter, I welcome Dwayne Edgar to the Public Gallery, along with Senator Fitzpatrick. Dwayne was responsible for setting up the Inner City Running Club. He is very welcome to the proceedings this morning.

Dental Services

Senator Tim Lombard

The Minister of State, Deputy Butler, is more than welcome. I raise the issue today of the review of dental services in west Cork, which is a very significant issue that we are trying to deal with at the moment. It is very appropriate to have a Minister of State with an understanding of west Cork with us this morning. That is very helpful.

The issue I raise is the school dental service. We are dealing with a shocking scenario whereby at the moment we have only two dental clinics open in west Cork, in the Bantry and Clonakilty areas. The clinics in Skibbereen, Schull, Castletownbere and Dunmanway were all closed. It is an amazing scenario that nearly 76% of the capacity we had for the school dental programme is not working in west Cork at the moment. There is a brand new primary care centre in Castletownbere and it is fully kitted out but there is no dentist there. In the primary care centre in Schull, a dentist was transferred from another practice. The clinic in Skibbereen closed in 2020 and the clinic in Dunmanway closed in recent weeks.

The service was ten times better ten years ago. That is a significant issue for parents of children in the more than 80 primary schools in the west Cork area. We are currently left with 2.5 dentists in the entire catchment area. I know the Minister of State understands the geography of the area. The journey from Clonakilty to Castletownbere is the same as travelling from Dublin to Kilkenny. There are 2.5 dentists covering 80 primary schools at the moment. The knock-on implication is obvious. The usual scenario is that children should go to dentists in first, third and sixth classes, but they would be lucky now to get an appointment in sixth class. Fissure seals and other such treatments are not being provided. I can only imagine the knock-on implication down the line because we are going to have huge issues regarding dental care because of the lack of dentists on the ground.

I was talking to local councillors. I met Caroline Cronin in Schull last Monday about this issue. It is frightening to think that in that part of the world down in Mizen, which is geographically tight, they cannot get a dentist in Schull. That is a huge issue for the school catchment area. We need to find out why we cannot get dentists into west Cork.

What is the long-term strategy here? There is an enormous issue in respect of how we get professionals to come to geographically challenged areas. The cost of living is lower and housing is available. One would assume there are opportunities for a perfect lifestyle balance. If one comes to work in Schull, Skibbereen, Castletownbere in west Cork tomorrow, the cost of housing will be appropriate. One would assume that is what people would want but for some reason, the HSE cannot encourage or get dental graduates to come to town. We need an answer. It is frightening that four of our six dental surgeries have closed and there are now only two and a half dentists in the area. The Minister of State knows the geographical area better than any other Minister in these Houses.

This is a unique story that needs a unique answer. What are we going to do to encourage dentists to come to live in west Cork and how can we provide a service for the children that is not there at the moment?

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Mary Butler)

I thank Senator Lombard for raising this important issue. It is a matter that comes up regularly. I thank the Senator for the opportunity to address the issue of dental and orthodontic services on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. I will be providing some figures regarding orthodontic services, in particular, but due to the ongoing Fórsa industrial action, the latest data we have is for the end of June 2023. I received confirmation this morning, as we all did, that the Fórsa industrial action has been suspended. However, I expect the backlog will take a few weeks to work through. Unfortunately, the figures I have are from the end of June and the Senator's figures are probably more live than mine.

The Senator has raised a valid question about people working in more rural, but beautiful and scenic, areas where the costs of living and houses are lower. I see that across my brief in respect of mental health. We have, for example, been unable to fill a post in south Kerry for child and adolescent mental health services, CAMHS, since 2014. That role has been funded for ten years and we have been unable to fill it. There are issues attached to it but we have found it challenging recently. In Donegal, for example, we advertised two posts related to nutrition and received no applications. There are challenges in specific areas.

I know west Cork very well and it is a beautiful part of the country, as the Senator said. It is vast and the catchment area is enormous. The Senator spoke to the point that Skibbereen and Dunmanway no longer have these services, which is worrying.

The Department of Health engages with the HSE on an ongoing basis to understand and address any challenges arising in the provision of public dental services. The Minister has been assured by the HSE that it is continuing to restore dental screening and treatment to children up to 16 years of age through identifying local resourcing challenges, prioritising clinical treatment and patient groups, and reallocating clinical resources according to greatest need. However, the Minister is aware that backlogs have arisen in the school system since the Covid-19 pandemic. As the Senator said previously, children were always seen in first or second class, third or fourth class and then fifth and sixth class. Fissure sealing is important to prevent fillings when they later go to secondary school.

The Minister recognises that oral healthcare needs to be modernised in line with best international evidence and practice, as set out in the Smile agus Sláinte policy. The development of prevention-focused oral healthcare packages for children aged from zero to two years is being prioritised this year, supported by €4.75 million allocated in the budget.

The HSE provides orthodontic treatment to those who have the greatest level of clinical need and who have been referred to the service before their 16th birthday. An orthodontic assessment determines if the referral meets the criteria for the service and, if so, what priority the patient is given. Additional investment in orthodontic services in recent years has enabled the HSE to substantially reduce waiting lists nationally, with a 47% reduction in treatment waiting lists achieved between the end of March 2019 and the end of June 2023. Under a national private procurement initiative, 2,154 patients were transferred into private orthodontic care between January and December 2023. For orthodontic patients who require surgical input, the HSE is developing a model of care for oral and maxillofacial surgery through the national clinical programme for surgery.

In 2023, surgery was procured for 41 patients waiting over four years for jaw surgery, which requires a lengthy hospital stay.

I will come back in the next session.

Senator Tim Lombard

As the Minister of State rightly pointed out, the issue here is geographical. Unfortunately, trying to get services in locations that might not be the centre of Ireland is becoming a huge issue. How can we promote posts in those areas? As the Acting Chair is from Donegal, he probably knows this more than anyone. How can we get people to take up these posts? We have many vacancies and it is becoming a massive issue. It is across a plethora of specialties now. It is not just a dental issue rather it is across the entire medical sector.

How could we get a strategy? I suggest we need a strategy looking at these locations from Donegal to west Cork and south Kerry, as the Minister of State rightly mentioned. What do we need to do? Do we need an incentive programme? Do we need to change the package? Do we need a taxation programme? If we do not do something different, the opportunity for these people in west Cork in particular and other locations to have a service, whether it is mental health or dental, will not be there. That will be one of the big issues and big challenges.

Acting Chairperson (Senator Niall Blaney)

Before the Minister of State replies, I welcome the students and teachers in the audience from Gaelscoil Eoin, Ballsbridge, Dublin. They are very welcome. They are all very good boys and girls. I hope they enjoy their trip around Leinster House.

Deputy Mary Butler

I welcome the students from Gaelscoil Eoin. They are very welcome into the Seanad. It is lovely to see them. They are very well behaved - their teachers must be delighted. I am sure there will be no homework as a result of that.

The Senator raised some valid concerns and I think he hit the nail on the head. A couple of years ago when I was representing Ireland in Brussels on St. Patrick’s Day, I met the minister for health there. It was interesting; we were in the middle of Covid but his main concern at the time was dentistry and the shortage of it. That was his main focus. We are seeing that all across Europe now. The Senator made the points of trying to support people to move to more rural locations. It is a valid question.

On the Senator’s own area, orthodontic figures are available for the HSE south orthodontic subregion. The most recent figures from Cork and Kerry show that 860 patients had their orthodontic needs assessed in the first half of 2023 while 1,937 patients were in active treatment in the HSE. Notwithstanding that, there is quite a long waiting list, with 2,900 patients waiting on an assessment at the end of June and 2,600 patients waiting to start treatment. Even though many people are receiving treatment, many are waiting. It is an important time.

I will bring what the Senator raised back to the Minister. He is right about the bigger picture and encouraging professionals into specific areas.

An Garda Síochána

Acting Chairperson (Senator Niall Blaney)

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy James Browne, to the House.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Cuirim fáilte roimh an Aire Stáit. I thank him for taking this Commencement matter, which concerns the issue of Garda vetting. I am sure the Minister of State is quite familiar with the issue. We have a National Vetting Bureau and the legislation is in place. The Minister of State will understand the frustration of many individuals and organisations seeking Garda vetting. Let us use the example of a childcare worker who wants to work with their local GAA club. He or she again must get Garda vetting. If that person works with a group of children in, for example, a youth drama initiative, that person needs Garda vetting again.

The same individual could end up having to go through several processes of Garda vetting in the one year.

Garda vetting is very important. However, all it indicates is whether an individual has a criminal record or is a threat to vulnerable persons. My frustration around this, as I am sure the Minister of State has experienced, is that people have to go through the process several times. Sometimes, depending on how busy Garda vetting is, the process can take a number of weeks. An anomaly exists with regard to certain organisations or types of employment.

I want to raise the question of school buses, with which the Minister of State will be very familiar. If somebody operates a school bus run on behalf of Bus Éireann, there is a requirement for the contractor's drivers to be Garda vetted. If, however, someone is working for a private bus company where an individual can drive a private bus which may also include the same group of schoolchildren there is no requirement for Garda vetting. It is even more complicated in cases where a bus driver is working for James Browne coaches which has a contract with Bus Éireann. I have to be Garda vetted to work for that company, and if I decide to then work for Niall Blaney coaches which has a contract with Bus Éireann I have to be Garda vetted all over again.

There is a lack of joined-up thinking in this process. I am aware that in April 2021, the Minister for Justice set up an interdepartmental Garda vetting review group. It examined a number of these areas, including the question of mandatory re-vetting and the system of cross-vetting so that if someone was vetted for one role that could carry all across to other roles. As yet, there has been no indication of when the report will be published. The Minister of State might be able to clarify that or provide some detail on the findings. It is important that we simplify this process and make it as easy as possible for employers and voluntary organisations.

Garda vetting is important in order to safeguard children and young people. The process should be as simple as possible and should also be one that organisations have faith in. They have a difficulty in that there do not seem to be the necessary checks. It seems to be overly cumbersome. I would be grateful if the Minister of State could provide us with an update.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality (Deputy James Browne)

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy McEntee, I thank the Senator for raising the Garda vetting process and improving the system. The primary purpose of the employment vetting carried out by the Garda National Vetting Bureau is to ensure the safety of children and vulnerable adults. I am sure we can all agree on the vital support for this task and the need for it to be carried out thoroughly and correctly.

The National Vetting Bureau (Children and Vulnerable Persons) Act 2012-2016 provides that the vetting system is managed by the National Vetting Bureau. As such, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, has no role in the processing of individual vetting applications - I know the Senator has not asked about this. The Minister has been informed that it is currently taking nine working days to process an average individual vetting application and has been assured that the bureau is working to return to its target of five working days for the majority of applications.

However, we accept that for certain applications it is necessary for the vetting bureau to carry out further inquiries, such as, for example, to confirm the information provided by an applicant with external bodies. The time required to receive such information may be outside of the control of the vetting bureau. In such instances, processing times may be longer than the average.

The programme for Government and the justice plan 2023 contain commitments to review the current vetting legislation. That led to the establishment in April 2021 of the Garda vetting review group by the Minister, Deputy McEntee. It has been in touch with proposals from gardaí for potential amendments to vetting legislation. This group includes members of the National Vetting Bureau in An Garda Síochána, officials from the Department of Justice and Tusla and other relevant stakeholders. The primary focus of the group is to deliberate on and formulate recommendations to strengthen vetting legislation in an effective manner. Issues being considered by the group include any changes which may be possible in the matter of vetting and re-vetting. The work of the group is close to being finalised. I understand it will report on its work in the coming months. I can assure the Senator that it is the aim of the Minister, Deputy McEntee, to ensure that the vetting system is fit for purpose, robust and future-proofed to the greatest extent possible in order to continue to protect our children and vulnerable adults.

Senator Malcolm Byrne

Unfortunately, the interdepartmental vetting review group was established three years ago. We have heard previously that the report was imminent. I think the Minister of State knows as well as I do the frustration many of the voluntary groups have with their volunteers having to go through this process. I would be grateful if the Minister of State could indicate whether mandatory revetting and cross-vetting proposals that were being considered will be included so that when people apply once and qualify, they may need to renew it annually or whatever but there will be simple systems in place.

I also ask that those issues that I raised specifically with regard to bus transport, particularly when there is a shortage of school bus drivers, could also be considered as well.

Deputy James Browne

I thank the Senator for raising this important matter. It can cause a lot of frustration for people throughout the country. Every TD and Senator is very much aware of the frustration that can arise as a result of multiple vetting applications. I assure the House that the Minister understands and appreciates the current system of vetting, as laid out in the National Vetting Bureau Acts may cause frustration for people, particular those genuinely wanting to provide valuable voluntary service to their communities. The need to hold separate vetting for multiple organisations is a commonly raised issue with the Minister and one which she has listened to. However, as outlined, the purpose of vetting is to act as an important component of safeguarding of our most vulnerable. Any changes to the system must be carefully considered to ensure there are no unintended issues that may reduce protections for those vulnerable persons and children.

Unfortunately, I cannot confirm what will be in the review but I will certainly convey the Senator’s concerns to the Minister and the emphasis on getting this review done as quickly as possible so that necessary changes can be made.

Cuireadh an Seanad ar fionraí ar 10.37 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar 11.03 a.m.

Sitting suspended at 10.37 a.m. and resumed at 11.03 a.m.