Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Wednesday, 19 Jan 1994

SECTION 2.

Mr. R. Bruton

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 4, subsection (2), line 41, after "may" to insert ", having first consulted representatives of employers and of employees within that class or classes of employment,".

This amendment is very simple. I refers to what I was trying to do, which Deputy Costello misconstrued. I suggested that should the Minister decide to exclude certain categories of employment from the coverage of this Bill — it merely says "as justified by objective considerations". It does not spell out what those considerations might be, nor does it require the Minister to consult with either the trade unions or employers in the industry.

There should be some obligation on the Minister to consult with and display to those who are intimately involved in the industry that the objective considerations, as she sees them, sustain her case. I am asking that an obligation to consult be enshrined in the legislation.

Mr. O'Rourke

I accept Deputy Bruton's amendment because I realise that it is for consultation purposes, which is a principle to which I have always adhered, and would fit the purpose of the Bill, which is for information and its dissemination. My officials have consulted on this with the draftsperson who suggested that the amendment should read "after consultation with representatives" rather than "having first consulted representatives". It is only a drafting point.

Mr. R. Bruton

I thank the Minister for accepting the amendment and I agree to her wording.

Mr. Rabbitte

I also support the amendment, but I would like to hear the Minister's views on one point. We are talking about the categories of workers which are excluded from the provisions of the Bill. Deputy Bruton is seeking to have it preceded by consultation with representatives of employers and employees. As I mentioned earlier, many of the workers to whom the provisions of this Bill will be most fibeneficial are not trade union organised.

One can identify an umbrella body for the employers but it is more difficult to do so in the case of the workers. I do not know whether it is desirable or typical to include IBEC and the ICTU. However, I am concerned that if, for example, in a particular sector of industry an opinion was readily available from the employers, which in this case might be predictable, but there was not a corresponding representative body to consult for the workers, the Minister concerned might not make what I would consider the correct decision.

Mr. O'Rourke

I see the Deputy's point, but the purpose of the subsection is to empower the Minister of the day to declare by order that a class or classes of employment shall be excluded from any provisions of the Bill where such exclusion is justified by objective consideration. What we are doing is clearly on the side of those to be consulted. We are saying that before any exclusion order can be made by a Minister it can only be done "in consultation with" rather than "having first consulted". However, the thrust is the same.

Deputy Bruton is not saying "representative bodies" but "representatives of employers and of employees". I would imagine that his amendment was carefully drafted so that it need not list the types of parental bodies, for want of a better word, but rather refers to representatives of particular groups, we all seek to have wider consultation and I consider this to be a fair amendment.

Chairman

Does Deputy Bruton accept the Minister's amendment to his amendment?

Mr. R. Bruton

I do accept it and the Minister is also right in that when I first drafted the amendment I put in trade unions but having reflected on situations not too far from the Minster's own home I thought it better to put "representatives of employees" because it had wider coverage.

Amendment, as amended, agreed to.

Mrs. O'Rourke

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 5, between lines 4 and 5, to insert the following subsection:

"(4) The Minister may by order amend or revoke an order under this section, including an order under this subsection.".

This is a technical amendment and is a standard provision in relation to the making of orders. Its purpose is to empower the Minister to make an order which amends or revokes an order which he or she has already made under this section.

Amendment agreed to.

Section 2, as amended, agreed to.