Select Committee on Enterprise and Economic Strategy debate -
Wednesday, 12 Apr 1995

SECTION 3.

Mr. Molloy

I move amendment No. 6:

In page 6, subsection (1), line 37, after "retailer" to insert "on a commercial basis".

The purpose of this and the following amendment is to enable a clearer explanation to be given by the Minister in regard to the effect of this Bill on intercultural exchange and educational travel arrangements which are entered into by voluntary organisations. The Minister is aware of the concern of a number of cultural groups and the National Youth Council, an umbrella organisation representing a lot of different youth organisations in the country. I put in this amendment to seek to meet the concerns they have expressed.

Section 3, which I propose to amend, covers the definition of "organiser". It states that "In this Act, ‘organiser' means a person who, otherwise than occasionally, organises packages and sells or offers them for sale to a consumer, whether directly or through a retailer.". I propose to add the words "on a commercial basis". Many voluntary organisations do not organise travel on a commercial basis, but in the interest of cultural exchange and educational benefit for young people in particular. The Minister is aware of the concern of a large number of our youth organisations and educational groups in regard to the application of holiday package requirements on the type of travel arrangements into which these voluntary organisations enter on a non-commercial basis.

The same principle applies to amendment No. 7 — the Minister is not proposing to take it with amendment No. 6 — which is also an amendment to section 3.

Mr. Stagg

I will deal with amendment No. 6 first and we can discuss amendment No. 7 later.

The definition of "organiser" used in the Bill is the same as that used in the directive. While we have some flexibility in implementing the directive and while not wanting to slavishly follow it, this flexibility is very limited. We must implement the letter and spirit of the directive.

It is not possible to accept this amendment. In any case, I fail to see why any package organiser should be operating on a non-commercial basis and I certainly do not know of any.

Mr. Molloy

The Minister does not know of any? The main reason these organisations are involved in organising these tours is not for the purpose of making a commercial profit but for the benefit of benefiting the participants, usually young people, both culturally and educationally. They are organised on a non-commercial basis.

Mr. Stagg

The Deputy means that the organisers are not making a profit?

Mr. Molloy

Yes.

Mr. Stagg

I am sure he will also be aware that the organiser takes very sizeable amounts of money from people, often young people — we are now straying into the next amendment, Chairman — and that money and those young people need to be protected. It is very easy, with this Bill, to give them this protection. We are talking here about travel within Ireland as the only new point in case.

Mr. Molloy

The Minister has introduced a new angle to the discussion. Is he stating that, to his knowledge, all these groups are organising trips for the purpose of making a commercial profit?

Mr. Stagg

That is not what I am saying. I am aware of people who do not make any money from organising trips but they have to make sizeable amounts of money from people to pay the cost of the travel. The people paying that money would have no protection without this Bill or the protection that already exists under the 1982 Act. It is right that both young people and their money should be protected by the terms of this Bill.

Mr. Finucane

While I agree with Deputy Molloy's statements and know that people act in a voluntary capacity, a lot of us are aware of organisers, for a trip to Lourdes or whatever, who put a particular package together. While they may not necessarily make a profit from it, they may take contributions, maybe on a weekly basis, from individuals involved and have a heavy responsibility in that. I support the spirit of what the Minister is saying; there has to be a protection mechanism for that situation. I presume the Minister is referring to that?

Mr. Stagg

As far as a trip to Lourdes is concerned, foreign travel in any packaged form, even if we did not bring in this Bill, is already included under the law and the protection given by the 1982 Act. We are effectively talking about the new category of packages within Ireland; this is the only new part.

Mr. S. Brennan

A trip to Lourdes would be covered by the 1982 Act. The new element, travelling within the State,——

Mr. Stagg

Going to Knock, for example.

Mr. S. Brennan

——would now be covered by the Bill?

Mr. Stagg

Yes.

Mr. S. Brennan

What is not clear from the wording of the Bill and what Deputy Molloy is trying to achieve — this has also been sought by a number of other amendments — is to ensure that the "Fr. Murphy" type of case involving a trip to a shrine, is not included in the Bill. That is all that this amendment is trying to achieve.

Mr. Stagg

It should be clear that occasional travel is not within the scope of the Bill.

Mr. S. Brennan

One might be going to Knock every week.

Mr. Stagg

An annual pilgrimage from a parish to Knock, where I served as an altar boy for a short period of time is excluded. The Bill is clear in that regard.

Mr. S. Brennan

It is not as clear as it should be

Mr. Stagg

How clearer can we make it than state it as we have?

Mr. S. Brennan

The Minister could accept Deputy Molloy's amendment.

Mr. Molloy

There are requirements in this Bill with regard to reserved funding which will put a huge financial onus on these cultural and educational bodies who have been organising these trips for young Irish people under various EU and Council of Europe schemes, such as Erasmus etc. Does the Minister recognise that it is proposed to apply the full requirements of this Bill to people who organise those kind of visits, which has really been introduced to catch the holiday package operator, ensure that the brochures being produced are accurate and that their is protection for the consumer, which we all support?

Mr. Stagg

If we do not introduce this Bill, the people going abroad, about whom Deputy Molloy is speaking, will remain covered by the 1982 Act. There is no change in the amount of cover they are required to have.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

The Minister is killing the voluntary concept which exists when somebody organises a trip at no cost to themselves and takes contributions for a bus to Knock, a pilgrimage to Lourdes, a journey to a match or any other journey without taking commission. Such persons will no longer organise trips and many people who participate in those tours will no longer have such facilities available to them. Usually community leaders organise trips and this is a voluntary concept. The Bill should not affect this area and I appeal to the Minister to amend the Bill so that these facilities are not affected. They are as relevant to Newbridge and Naas as they are to Mitchelstown and Fermoy.

Mr. S. Brennan

It looks like one can go to Guadeloupe but not to Knock.

Mr. Stagg

It is the other way round. If one goes to Lourdes, one is covered by the 1982 Act. Journeys such as occasional tours by boy scouts and schools and pilgrimages to Knock are not included and guidelines which are being drawn up will specifically exclude them. Voluntary people who organise tours can continue to do so as long as it is not on a constant, ongoing basis. Some non-profit organisations are doing so effectively on a commercial basis.

Mr. E. O'Keeffe

Many events are run on an annual basis, such as trips to wildlife parks, which are becoming very popular, and to heritage centres. Persons in the community, such as leaders of community councils or organisations, often organise such trips and they will become more difficult to organise.

Mr. Stagg

Such people will not be affected by the Bill. The Deputy should not frighten voluntary people doing good work in the community by his statements.

Mr. Molloy

I am not clear about whom the Minister says will not be affected by the Bill. He says that occasional organised tours will not be affected. Many organisations affiliated to the National Youth Council, Interculture Ireland and many other groups, avail of a number of EC culture programmes. These are organised not just occasionally but are standard on an annual basis. Is the Minister saying the Bill proposes no change in the requirements with which these groups must comply under the 1982 Act? They are certainly of the opinion that if this Bill is passed and they are required to comply fully with its provisions, they will have difficulty in building up the reserve fund they are expected to have available under Part III of the Bill.

Mr. Stagg

Chairman, your instructions were that we were to deal with amendment No. 6. We are now dealing in great detail with amendment No. 7. Can the two amendments be discussed together?

Mr. Molloy

I would like if they could be taken together because they are interconnected.

Amendment No. 7 states:

In page 6, subsection (2), line 41, after "subsection" to insert "to include established youth and educational non-profit organisations and formal education institutions recognised by the Minister for Education".

The argument for this amendment has been made.

Mr. Stagg

The type of organisations mentioned in amendment No. 7 are engaged in the business of selling packages to the public on a full-time basis. Consumers are entitled to the comfort of knowing they will have the protection of legislation, from the point of view of obtaining what they pay for and their money being secure in the event of the organisation in question being unable to meet its financial obligations. This is necessary given that the people we are talking about are often minors. This treatment of education and youth exchange organisations — the amendment refers to such organisations — is consistent with the attitude taken by other EU states, none of which has excluded from their legislation the transposing of the directive into national law. Occasional organisers, boy scouts, schooltours and pilgrimages are not affected by this. In the case of foreign travel the 1982 Act applies to all groups.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Amendment No. 7 not moved.

Section 3 agreed to.

Section 4 to 6, inclusive, agreed to.